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Author Topic: railroad or railway  (Read 14928 times)
Craig

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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2007, 10:59:23 PM »

Stewart,

I don't mind stopping at a red light if there is traffic. What I do mind is stopping at a light that is red for no good reason.  At 2:00 in the morning, on an otherwise desolate road, it is rather inconvenient to have to stop because "it's time". Unfailingly, the light will turn green at the moment another driver, on another leg of the intersection, shows up. He or she then sits at a red light because "it's time to stop".

Craig
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SteveC

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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2007, 04:41:09 AM »

Gentlemen,

The following publication may serve as an example that the interchangeable use of the terms "railway” and ”railroad” were present and in general use in England in 1843 and doesn’t quite seem to be uniquely American as thought.

From: Project Gutenberg [EBook #14753]
Format: Plain Text; Character Set Encoding ISO-8859-1
Publication: BLACKWOOD'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE.
No. CCCXXXV. SEPTEMBER, 1843.   VOL. LIV.
(No. 335, September 1843, Volume 54)

Article Title: A PLEA FOR ANCIENT TOWNS AGAINST RAILWAYS.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 04:51:40 AM by SteveC » Logged
Seasaltchap

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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2007, 12:34:37 PM »



Steve C : I think 1843 is after the established use in the US. (you may have the wrong link)

I think something else is working here. As we see exemplified in this thread is the regular American insult of making Native English speakers use the words and the pronunciations that satisfy them: and they will repeat their preferance until the learning is taken onboard. Ever willing to be understood abroad, the Native English speaker will seek to accommodate them. I think we cannot exclude this from the usage in an article of 1843.

Sheldon : Arizona is the "Red Light Running Capital of the World" and we have weekly gun fights on the interstates. I think you may wish to consider this as a place to retire for good sport.

It was 240v, but to harmonize with the EEC it is now 220v. I think the answer to your question in the US, is that Electric Cookers and Water Heaters still require 220v. The complaint of most Europeans in the US is that while cheap, domestic appliances have no beef in them!

Regards

 
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Phoenix AZ: OO enthusiast modelling GWR 1895-1939, Box Station Wiltshire; S&DJR Writhington Colliery, Nr. Radstock.

Interested in making friends on the site with similar interests.
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2007, 01:10:34 PM »

Stewart,

Arizona - I don't like the climate.

Having a choice, I would never heat my home, heat water or cook with electricity, it is very inefficient.

And our split phase system of delivering both 120 and 240 volts to homes in North America works very well and provides much greater personal safety. 200 volts is the "killing threshold" of electricity, 120, while it can be deadly, is in 95% of cases not, The precentage is similarly reversed for voltages over 200.

We cook on gas and heat our water with the oil fired boiler that heats our home.

A recent study demistrated that much better efficiency is acheaved by each home having its own oil or gas fired heating plant than by using that same oil or gas at a central location to generate electricity to run heat pumps.

I have no question about the superior quality of European appliances, but their cost puts them in the diminishing return catagory, just like their cars. I can aford those things, but over the long haul, two or three much less expensive products are cheaper to own and satisfiy the utility of my needs just as well as that one expensive product. I would rather have the money in my pocket than feed my ego with a BMW. My Fords do just fine. There is always a threashold of quality that is necessary and than that which is too expensive or the benifits of which are not noticed or realized in actually owning the product.

Case in point. The BMW 7 series vs the Ford Crown Victoria - I will not argue that the Ford is just as good a car, it is not. But from the standpoint of what it costs and what my NEEDS are, it is a much more cost efficient car. The BMW may last twice as long and deliver higher performance, but I don't NEED the performance, I am satisfied with the performance of the Ford. The Ford is just as safe and costs 1/3 of what the BMW costs, so for my purposes, the Ford is 33% more cost effective. In this case, that is $30,000 still in my pocket over the expected sevice life of the BMW or two Fords. And, in terms of practical reliablity, they are equal or the Ford has a slight edge since higher performance cars often have reliablity problems and/or higher maintence costs. I know, I worked in the BMW shop.

But what do I know....

Sheldon
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 01:50:06 PM by atlanticcentral » Logged
SteamGene

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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2007, 01:36:24 PM »

Stewart, old chap, I happen to be a Native English speaker.  I just happen to speak a different dialect, just like a Cornishman speaks differntly than a Northcumberlander. 
Gene
A.B., English,
The College of William and Mary in Virginia
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Chief Brass Hat
Virginia Tidewater and Piedmont Railroad
"Only coal fired steam locomotives"
daveb

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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2007, 05:06:12 PM »

Sheldon,
Your statement that 200v is the "Killing Threshold" of electricity is not entirely correct. An AC current of 60mA at a frequency of 50/60 Hz can induce ventricular fibrillation resulting in death. Depending on body resistance and the path of the current, a supply as low as 50v could prove fatal. Residual Current Breakers are generally set to trigger at a flow of only 30mA, well below the danger area. Any voltage of above 40v should be considered to be dangerous depending on conditions.

Dave.
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Atlantic Central

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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2007, 05:21:29 PM »

Dave,

I agree, you are correct and I know all that, but the fact remains, without going into long scientific explainations that would make most of those reading this fall asleep, 200 volts, more less, is the point where electricity becomes likely fatal for any and everyone, regardless of age, body weight, health, fault currents, ground paths, etc, etc,.

As an electrician for many years I was bit by 120 more times than I can remember, never actually injured by it. In fact, after a while, your only thought is "Gee, I shouldn't have touched that" or "That was stupid of me". But, I was bit above 200 volts only once, at 208 volts and I was not well grounded. That is an experiance I consider my self lucky to have survived and would never wish on anyone.

And so my basic question remains - why would anyone wire buildings with general use outlets at 220 volts?

Sheldon
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 05:23:36 PM by atlanticcentral » Logged
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2007, 05:39:04 PM »

Stewart, Dave, and whoever,

One more point of clarification here. Water heaters, ranges, dryers, air conditioners and other 240 volt appliances are either hard wired or are seldom pluged and unpluged as apposed to vacuums, lamps, toasters, hair dryers, etc.

Portable devices with cords are subject to all sorts of mishaps, do we really want 240 volt extension cords getting cut by accident?

The likelyhood of injury is greatly reduced by hard wiring or limited access to cords (like dryers and ranges), as apposed to portable devices that are plugged and unplugged routinely. And the higher voltage is only used on those few items who's wattage make a higher voltage an advantage.

Sheldon
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Craig

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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2007, 11:05:40 PM »

Sheldon,

I'm very surprised that I haven't seen you mention the terms amperage or load.  Over the course of my career as an electrician I was shocked numerous times, just as you were. I've been shocked while working with 120, 208, 240, and 277. The 240 volt experience was very painful as my grounded hand was directly contacted by a live, uninsulated wire. No harm done, though. On the other hand, some idiot who had done some renovation to a house decided to break the basement lighting circuit in a 4-gang box in the kitchen. On a service call my voltage tester demonstrated that the kitchen lighting circuit was dead and I proceeded to separate wires. Imagine my surprise when I broke some neutrals and found myself against a wall, unable to breathe. Turns out the basement lights - seven 150-watt lamps – were on at the time. That was only 120 volts but the load was quite high. Having electricity pulled through your body can be a very unpleasant experience regardless of the voltage. Load is a notable consideration when determining the safety of a particular voltage.

Craig
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Atlantic Central

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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2007, 08:54:44 AM »

Craig,

Yes, you too are correct, becoming the neutral path in any circuit under load is a very dangerous situation. Again, I was trying to make my point about 220 volt general use outles in Europe with out long technical explainations. In fact, Dave's earlier statement about lower voltages generally depends on such an externial load other than your body to be harmfull, since our bodies are low in resistance and seldom create high current levels on their own.

In the situation of being caught in the neutral of an active circuit, the danger is a complicated factor of the available fault current, your body weight and resistance, your health and the load on the circuit. But as you point out, it is a more dangerious situation than just touching a hot wire.

My point in the begining of this is more about the hazzards to users, not to technicans working on the system. And, I will say that in my career in the field, I never knowing worked anything over 120 hot past a the point of simple testing. End users with cord connected appliances are known to do amazing stuff, why give them such a deadly level of power to play with? This opinon is also boosted by the fact that my father was a volunteer fireman.

I am retired from actually working in the electrical field, but now work as a Residential Desginer, Historic Restoration Consultant, and Real Estate Home Inspector. So I still design electrical systems for homes, old and new, on a regular basis. In my days in the electrical industry, I was not just an electrician, but was also an electrical Design Draftsman and designed power and control systems for commercial and industrial buildings.

Sheldon
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 08:58:36 AM by atlanticcentral » Logged
Craig

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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2007, 09:36:45 AM »

Sheldon,

When I was a toddler I stuck my mother's car key into a live duplex outlet. I can't imagine what that would have been like had the outlet been 220. I agree that it is difficult to understand the mindset behind high voltage GU electrical service.
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Seasaltchap

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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2007, 10:23:22 AM »


UK records show 5 deaths domestically, and 25 work related in a population of 60 million. www.oxford.gov.uk/planning/new-electrical-regulations.cfm


US records show 376 overall, excluding 47 from lightning and over 150 from tasers in a population of 300 million.www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Flexing the figures for the populations, I think the higher voltages in the UK do not bearout the arguments. Indeed the experience of deaths in the US may be more than twice that in the UK.

What I see is very flimsy equipment that is only just engineered for the job, and a culture of "wing-nuts" and those little orange adapters to get around the earthing pin on the appliance!


Regards
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Phoenix AZ: OO enthusiast modelling GWR 1895-1939, Box Station Wiltshire; S&DJR Writhington Colliery, Nr. Radstock.

Interested in making friends on the site with similar interests.
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2007, 10:42:37 AM »

Stewart,

Yawn
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Seasaltchap

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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2007, 11:03:42 AM »


Could we please get to a consensus on "Railway or Railroad"?

Gene : I think it is more than just a change in dialects.

English owes a lot to its Gernanic influences, where Native English has since moved from the guttural to the rhythmic.

The original authors of the Constitution seriously considered publishing it in German, and not in English.

German is a language of building prefixes and suffixes to get to where you want to be. This is most prevalent in American speech, hence the German influence. This makes for a mouth full and a very guttural language, which is not where Native English is going.

Sheldon's list is by no means representative: viz Acclimated v. "getting used to" ... new climate[OED].
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Phoenix AZ: OO enthusiast modelling GWR 1895-1939, Box Station Wiltshire; S&DJR Writhington Colliery, Nr. Radstock.

Interested in making friends on the site with similar interests.
Seasaltchap

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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2007, 11:08:05 AM »



Sheldon : Opinions are a dime a dozen.

What are they backed with: yawns?

Regards
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Phoenix AZ: OO enthusiast modelling GWR 1895-1939, Box Station Wiltshire; S&DJR Writhington Colliery, Nr. Radstock.

Interested in making friends on the site with similar interests.
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