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| | |-+  2-6-4 Steam Girl's Set - Engine slowing down
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Author Topic: 2-6-4 Steam Girl's Set - Engine slowing down  (Read 7632 times)
cgehrke

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« on: December 14, 2009, 05:27:10 PM »

I just bought the Williams 2-6-4 Steam Girl's Set and was told that I could use my husbands MTH transformer & track (MTH RailKing RTR Penn Freight Train Set, w/ track & transformer).  When the Williams Engine & Tender are on the track with the cars & caboose that came with the set, it will pick up speed just fine, maintain speed for 2-3 laps around our Christmas tree (about a 5x5 foot circle) and then will start to slow down and eventually stop.  I don't change the speed on the controls (usually set to 1/2 to 3/4 speed).  Our MTH train can maintain speed on the track without modifying the controls, but the Williams will always slow down and eventually stop.

I connected the MTH train to the William's Girls cars & caboose (to rule out the engine/tender) and the MTH train pulls the cars just fine, so that tells me that there isn't a short in the cars.  The Williams Engine/Tender eventually slows down on the track when attached to the MTH cars/caboose, so it leads me to believe it is the engine.  The store that I bought the Set from doesn't see this problem on their test track when I take it into the store.  While debugging the problem at the store, we looked up the specs on the MTH transformer and called the store where we bought the MTH set/track/transformer, and everyone confirmed that the transformer shouldn't be the problem.

Does anyone else have this set (and what transformer/track are you using)?

Does anyone have a recommendation on how to fix this problem?  Or should I return it to the store for an exchange?

Regards,
Crystal
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MB425

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 09:22:58 PM »

There likely is nothing wrong. Your MTH ProtoSound 2 engine has speed control which acts like the speed control in your car and maintains the same speed through hills, curves, power spikes, etc. The Williams locomotive doesn't have this feature. Without it, it will slow down in curves, going up hills, speed up going down hills, etc. In order to help maintain correct speed, you will need to constantly play with the throttle.


If by any chance there is something wrong, check to make sure your locomotive is well lubricated, is running cool ( the motor that is) and there are no mechanical binds in the running gear/worm gear.

Hope this helps and have fun!
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ABC
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 02:18:15 AM »

Your track could be dirty also and it may have more of an effect on the Williams loco than the MTH loco. You may just have to adjust the throttle as needed. There isn't anything wrong with the loco from your description.
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phillyreading

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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 05:27:15 PM »

Have you lubricated the gears on the Williams engine?
Another thing to look for is a loose wire or plug-in connector that heats up after a few minutes.
Being that the MTH engine runs good on the track, I would suggest having your Williams engine looked at.
What you could do to see if it is a power issue is to measure the voltage at the track connector with a digital multimeter(AC range at or above 50 volt setting) and see if your track voltage drops when your Williams engine slows down, if the voltage stays the same your engine is at fault.

Lee F.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 05:50:28 PM by phillyreading » Logged
Cobrabob8


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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 09:31:32 AM »

Crystal,
First off, keep the train set! Second, your Girl's Set locomotive may just need a good going over or a more powerful transformer. I purchased a Williams small Hudson steam locomotive a couple of months ago and had a similar issue with it. The first thing I did was make sure that it was lubed well. I took the shell off to get at the hard to reach places also. This seemed to help some. It did run much better. What I did notice is that  my Williams steam locomotive seemed to need more power to run than my Lionel and other Williams locos did. The farthur the locomotive got from the power leads the slower it would run. I have not attatched all of my power leads to my new layout yet so I am sure that the farthur the engine got from the power hook up that it was loosing voltage. How many watts is your MTH transformer? It may not have enough power to run your Williams loco. This past weekend I bought a new 400 watt Williams Z-4000  transformer to replace my tired and worn old 175 watt Lionel KW transformer. What a diiference! My small Hudson now runs with a vigor it never had before. It runs faster and is more more responsive than it was before. Maybe if you put another set of wire leads on your tracks across from the first ones that would also help. Or perhaps if your transformer is not powerful enough you can get an MTH Z-1000 transformer which would be perfect for your Christmas layout. You can find them for under $100.00. Just some thoughts that I hope may help.
Cobrabob.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 09:34:27 AM by Cobrabob8 » Logged

"Train Kept A Rollin' All Night Long.."
cgehrke

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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 09:03:29 PM »

Hi,
Thank you all for replying - lots of helpful info Smiley

When I took the engine/tender into the store, he lubed it again, so I think it is good there.  I was told not to over-lube, that is bad.

I cleaned the track with rubbing alcohol.  I was able to get a little bit of dirt or grime off, but really not a lot.

At the store, the owner (who also does repairs) took the shell off of the train and we both checked for loose wires and we didn't see any.

So, I happen to have a voltmeter handy Smiley  Here's what I found.  The transformer specs says that it outputs 14V AC (80W) and 18V DC (100W).  When I took the train off the track, I measure 18.2 V (DC voltage) at full speed, ~14 V at 3/4 speed, and ~10 V at 1/2 speed.  So, the transformer is working.  When the MTH train is running at 3/4 speed, I measure ~13.2 V, and at 1/2 speed I measure 10.9 V.  When I put the Williams pink train on the track (BTW, I am measuring both engines with 3 MTH cars on the track w/ the train & tender) at 1/2 speed I measure 9.8V in the beginning and it eventually drops down to 6.8V when it stops running (engine is not hot to the touch).  At 3/4 speed I measure 13.8 V and it goes around the track quite a few times (3-5 minutes) and eventually stops, but I am measuring 13.8 V still.  However, the engine is really hot and I can't touch the back end of the train where the engine is exposed behind the cab.  And its really hard to get the train restarted at this point.   Note:  that I can't run either the MTH or the Williams train at full speed on our 5x5 Christmas tree circle because they will both jump the track at the turns.

My trainset didn't come with a user's manual, does anyone know where I could find one?  I suspect that the MTH transformer/controller isn't powerful enough for this train now.

Also, is the hot engine normal?  When we were testing this train at the store on the test track, it did not get this hot and he was running a more powerful transformer (he had a longer track). 

Thanks again for your comments, if you have anything else to suggest, I would greatly appreciate it!

Regards,
Crystal
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the nitro man

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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 10:47:48 PM »


if i was you i would take the track, engine, & your transformer to your hobby store & show him what it's doing. that would be your best bet.
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Cobrabob8


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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 01:26:40 PM »

With my new Z-4000 I have noticed that when I run my Williams Hudson on my layout that it runs best at 17 volts and up. The transformer has it's own built in Volt and AMP meters. The AMPS are usually at 3.5 and above so I think that it may be a power issue you have. Did you try running an extra set of power leads across from the original ones? That usually helps out.  The farther you get away from your power hook-ups, you will lose some of your transformer's power output. I hope this helps. Try the extra set of wires next.
Cobrabob.
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"Train Kept A Rollin' All Night Long.."
3rail
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 03:02:39 PM »

Hi Crystal,

If the locomotive did not get hot at the hobby store, then the problem is with the transformer.  It is either not putting out enough amperage or the output is not close enough to to a AC pure sign wave.  Voltage and amperage are two different measurments. The lowering voltage measurment is teling me that the transformer is struggling to supply enough current (amperage). If you continue to use it with this transformer, you will burn out the motor.

I would stick with a transformer that outputs pure AC like older Lionel transformers 90 watts and above (models 1033, 1044, LW KW, ZW etc.), MRC pure power 135w, or Atlas O Industrial Rail 80 watt transformer. We will also have an 80 watt transformer available in 2010.

Regards,

3rail
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 03:07:21 PM by 3rail » Logged
cgehrke

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 06:27:16 PM »

Last Sunday we took the transformer/controller down to train store w/ the train and tender and the owner took a look at the train and tested it for about an hour.  We couldn't find anything wrong - he put out MTH transformer/controller on his track with my pink train and it ran fine and did not overheat.  Before we left the store, the store owner disabled the smoke unit because he said that might be causing a problem (first thing to go out on the engine possibly).

I came home and tried out the engine with the smoke unit disabled and no changes.  We were also told to wire a second set of power/ground to the other side of the track and that did not help either.  Then I ran just the engine all on its own on the track and had no problems (it maintained speed).  I attached the tender to the engine and ran just the two of them and it eventually slowed down.  I am starting to wonder if the tender is the problem.

Has anyone had a problem with or heard of a problem with the tender?  I believe this is where the sound is located, so could that be the problem?  Also, I compared the underside of the Williams Pink Tender to the MTH Tender and the connector on the Williams tender can rub up against the wheels on a tight turn and I think it might be acting like a brake, and eventually bogging down the engine.  Has anyone seen this problem on a William tender, or any other tender?  Should the connector be able to touch the front wheels?  Our MTH tender connector clears the wheels and does not rub up against the wheel.  Our track is made of two O-31 curves a straight piece (approx 4.5 feet) and then repeats to make a circle around our tree.  Maybe the combination of the connector rubbing up against the wheels, a tight corner and a short distance (that wouldn't allow for a lot of speed to be gained) is the issue - but I believe this train set is rated for O-27 curves, so I would think this wouldn't be the problem.  Note that at the train store, there were long straight aways that the train could pick up more speed on and not as many tight curves, so that would explain why we didn't see this at the train store.  Any thoughts? 

Thank you for your suggestions - I really appreciate your help!  I am excited to get this train working!

-Crystal
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the nitro man

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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 09:14:33 PM »

it looks to me if it runs fine without the tender, & runs bad with it, that the problem is with the tender somewhere. try running it with the tender, but without the wiring connecter hooked up. if it runs fine that way, the board is bad in the tender. no the electrical connector should be rubbing the wheels, can you move it to where it isn't rubbing?
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ripley manor

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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 02:44:40 PM »

I have the 4-6-4 semi-scale hudson and the 2-8-4 berkshire. I run both of them on O27 curves and had the same problem with slowing down after a while. I disconnected the tender sound system (just unscrew the contact rollers) and the problem went away. they have over 700 hours run time on them now and still run great. hope this helps.
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the nitro man

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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 08:33:06 PM »

i would send them both back if it were me & exchange for new one's. that is if that turns out being your problem.
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DominicMazoch

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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 10:38:44 PM »

I run my W diesels and GG-1  with TMCC conv. via a TPC.   have not had a heating issue with that combo.  Have a loop with a MTH 75 W transformer, and can run one 90MAC on it with again, no heating problems.

But I do not have a W steamer. so I could not say if steamers have a special issue.

But your steamers have can motors instead of open frame.   The open framers did have the nature of slowing down after running awhile.  Should not be the case with cans.

Do you have a volt meter to check the juice on the track when you first put the engine on, then when the engine sloes up.  A cheap one from the Shack is all you would need.
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lennyski

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 02:48:46 PM »

I just posted the same issue with my semi scale hudson. I also have a turbine and it runs fine and doesn't get hot. I am using the MRC dual power transformer which does put out the sine wave not the chopped like the CW-80. Hopefully someone will figure this out because I really like this engine.
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