As promised, this is a new thread to document and ask questions, while I attempt to refurbish this old engine. It was my grandfather's first engine when he started in 1947.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1432.jpg)
I have disassembled the loco:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1446.jpg)
And started cleaning. The moving parts are soaking in rubbing alcohol to loosen all the old grime and grease. The shell and cylinders are sitting in paint thinner.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1448.jpg)
Okay, first question: What kind of bits to I need to drill into the pot metal. I will be adding grabirons, holes for light wires, and anything else I can think of. Will dremel bits work? I saw some in the LHS. They didn't say if they cut soft metal. The shell actually has minute indentations to show the drilling points. Saves me from some pretty micro-measuring.
Second question: I have pretty good luck getting old athearn motors running well. Is is possible to save a motor this old?
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1449.jpg)
I know they're not too efficient, but for historical/sentimental reasons, it would be nice to leave the loco as original as possible.
Last question for now:
I'm thinking of painting the loco a very high gloss black (red window frames), as if it were restored for a museum, which is what the shelf is becoming. Opinions?
Regards,
Jonathan
If you are going to run it DCC, the motor would have to be upgraded. A good place to go would be here:
http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBMotorIndx.htm (http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBMotorIndx.htm)
starting about the eighth item on this page are drill bits at a real good price
http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/drill-bit-twist (http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/drill-bit-twist)
Jonathan - Wow...that is an oldie! I had one of these little engines (and have sold a few) and can tell you they are fairly poor runners. In all fairness, to Varney, they were a product of their times...which thankfully we have advanced beyond (well, at least as far as the hobby is concerned).
With all the alterations/additions you have planned; you are obviously not going to restore this piece. In that light, I would definitely follow pdlethbridge's advice and re-motor. You might even want to consider re-gearing - thereby making this a good runner. There probably isn't much room for a decoder and I don't think I would go that route. Conversely I was told, by a fellow vendor (electronics) that a DCC decoder can be installed in almost any locomotive...the choice is yours.
If you are putting all this effort into the Dockside for your own satisfaction - go for it. If you are looking at a future investment (and, yes, you will be looking at resale some time in the future) then you are wasting your resources. When all is said and done: you will still have a post war Varney Docksider. We have sold several of these, in great condition, in the $10 to $20 range...probably a fraction of what you plan on spending.
Good luck,
Ray
PD/Ray,
Thanks for the start.
Yes, I am doing this for my own satisfaction. Have no dreams of making a silk purse from a sow's ear. Just want to make it pretty, and, if somebody asks, I want to be able to put it on a track and have it go around the loop. That's it really. It's just a historical/emotional connection from one generation to another.
Was surprised to see anybody (yardbird) would even make a motor that fits in this little guy. Probably cost three times what my grandfather paid for the engine back then.
The hard part seems to be finding the metal stanchions that hold the grabirons. I can form some thin, stiff wire if I have to. But the search has just begun. This is a long-term, parttime project.
Thanks again,
Jonathan
Bowser has the stanchions..or at least did have them. I'm a little confused, You say you want to restore it, but you want to add detail parts. I would either restore it as sold or go all out & make a good looker & good runner.
As far as drill bits, HSS bits will drill metal. Twist drills are only good for wood & plastic. You may be able to use them on pot metal with a pin vise & lubrication if you take your time. To make it a good runner you would probably have to install contact shoes or wipers made by Tomar,
I have one that is ready to be remotored with a new gearbox from NWSL.
Bowser also has a valve gear kit that really adds a lot to this engine.
Keep us informed about your progress... Jerry
Sorry, Jerry, I'm a little confused, too.
I'm leaning towards restoring the original parts as much as possible. If that goes well, then I will probably be interested in a new motor. Varney meant for there to be grabirons as the drill points are already in place. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :D I'm taking poetic license by wanting to put forward and rear lights. Can't help myself.
I'm also confused about needing a new gear box. There are only two gears that I can see: the worm and the gear on the forward drive wheel. The drive gear is brass and in excellent condition from what I can tell. They also seem to mesh well.
As an aside, I have a B&O dockside that I received as my first loco in 1970. In a pinch, I could steal parts from that one if I have to. Since it was a plastic, dimestore cheapy as well, it wouldn't break my heart to use is as a sacrificial lamb. It still runs.
Regards,
Jonathan
Quote from: pdlethbridge on December 09, 2009, 06:03:27 AM
If you are going to run it DCC, the motor would have to be upgraded. A good place to go would be here:
http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBMotorIndx.htm (http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBMotorIndx.htm)
starting about the eighth item on this page are drill bits at a real good price
http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/drill-bit-twist (http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/drill-bit-twist)
i have bought from yardbird. nice selection of train crew figures.
i just received an order from widget supply. i bought ten each of the 70 to 80 size bits. they can bend or break easily. been there, done that, have the t shirt.
Bought a second pin vise.
i use a little wd40 for lubricant when drilling metal.
in case you do not have it, below is a link to a whole bunch of varney information.
http://www.hoseeker.net/varneymiscellaneous.html
lex
If you can get the valve gear kit from Bowser, it will add greatly to the appearance of the model. I'm with you - go ahead and install the handrails and grabs. Varney spotted them for that reason, so as to hold down the cost of the basic model. I don't know if the valve gear kit includes the crosshead guides. It looks like the holes are already there in the back of the cylinders. There may be a tab on the back side of the crossheads to slide on the guides. Mantua also made the handrail stanchions in turned brass.
As for the motor, check to see if it runs by touching leads from your DC power pack to the brush clips. Those old Pittmans were hard to kill. If the motor is in fact bad, then I would go ahead and replace it with a can motor. You can re-use the old worm, but you'll have to get a brass bushing (NWSL has, or had them) to adapt the worm to the smaller metric motor shaft. It will be a lot less work than installing a whole new gear box, which will mean pulling off one of the geared drivers, pulling off the old wormgear, pressing a new gear on, then re-quartering the driver. The can motor and the original gears should make the model a "decent" runner, which is probably all you want.
Go here and scroll down to Class C-16 for pics of the prototypes: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html
Note that 2 of the locos were rebuilt without the saddle tank and a new tender. Rivarossi once made a model of the tender version.
That motor looks like a Pittman DC-66; it may be an import copy. The Pittmans were fine motors. Clean the commutator with a pencil eraser. Clean the brushes as well - just wipe them off. A real Pittman will have a wick in front of the motor for some lubrication. The meshing between motor and drive axle is important. As a poster said, the old Varney docksiders weren't known for their fine running. However, sometimes a little shimming under the motor with a piece of cardboard will help. A friend uses pieces of old bicycle tire innertubes under his motors when he can. That will help quiet the mechanism. Me? I would put a dab of silicone under the motor - that will help with noise.
I doubt that the Bowser valve gear will fit that particular engine. You should go online and look to see if they have an exploded view of their current engine.
You can get handrail stantions from Yardbird Trains, I have dealt with them and they try hard to please. They are also available from vendors on Ebay -Mantua/Tyco and Penn Line all made handrail stantions. Unfortunately, when I look at the prices asked for parts on Ebay, I realize that the items for sale are gold plated. Stick with Yardbird.
As for drills, the key word in drilling for handrails in potmetal is "slow." You might also lubricate the tip of the drill.
Jonathan
The motor is a Pittman DC60, it can be made DCC compatible.
The motor will give you years of service.
To make it DCC compatible you have to remove the grounding link, found on the
top of the brush mount. Remove the screw and link. Discard the link (Looks like a solder lug)
Replace the screw, it is now DCC compatible. DO NOT disassemble the motor any further.
These motors are magnetized after assembly and removing the armature will kill the magnet!
To clean the motor attach leads to it and submerge it in alcohol and run it.
After it drys apply oil to the felt wicks at both bearings and iy's readt to go.
Tim Anders
Souderton,PA
:o Submerge the motor in alcohol.... while it's running.... REALLY?! :o
I can do that? Cool... that's extreme model railroading, man!
Can't wait to try it. ;D
Thanks,
Jonathan
Jonathan,
Two thumbs up for what you are doing. Just about every year I end up restoring old MARX and Lionel trains that are being passed on from Grandfather to Grandson. It is certainly not for the money involved - it has to be a labour of love for these old antiques, the hope that they will last a couple more generations, and the satisfaction of restoring a rusty pile of junk into somebody's pride and joy. I usually do not repaint the trains. These were Grandad's trains and it was the play wear, the dents and the scratches that made them uniquely his. I do like to get them running at least as well as when they were new.
From time to time I do repaint a locomotive, mostly diecast ones. I usually use carburetor cleaner to remove the old paint as it is made for use on similar diecasting alloys. For some paints, lacquer thinner or straight acetone work just fine (CAUTION - the fumes are poisonous and the liquids and their vapours are flamable!!) I usually cheat a bit with the next step - I file off any molding marks such as the parting line along the top of the boiler and bits of flash here and there. They are usually not too obvious with the scratched up old paint but are glaringly obvious with a new paint job. I prefer a semi-gloss finish rather than a shiny one - it more closely matches the original paint. And I almost always bake it in the oven the next day to harden it right up. (Remember, we are talking diecast here - DO NOT try baking plastic shells!)
Best of luck with your project, and as someone else already said, please keep us informed about your progress.
As far as running a motor submerged in alcohol, it is best to start and stop it while fully submerged. And by alcohol, I don't think Tim meant Rum, Rye or Single Malt Scotch - probably more in the line of methanol or Isopropyl alcohol.
Jim
I'm almost sure the Bowser valve gear will fit because they use the varney mold for the docksider. The motor may draw excessive amperage if the magnet has lost some of it's magnetism. I suspect someone out there has a motor that was discarded when it was switched for a can motor.
The purpose of a new gearbox is that it will mesh perfectly with the motor gear & you can get various ratios to allow your engine to run as slow or fast as you want. contact NWSL...they can advise you. It really isn't that hard to do. I just scribe a line thru the uninsulated wheel & axle to make sure you reassemble it in quarter. worked for me every time.
Pull the uninsulated wheel only, you may mess up the insulation when you reassemble it if you mess with the insulated wheel. NWSL makes a gear puller, or you can make one as I did. Jerry
I can't believe all the fun I'm about to have!
I needed a good winter project. The garage gets too cold to run trains in January and February. The prospect of making yet another 200 trees was getting to me.
Oh, and thanks for letting me know I won't have to waste a bottle of Single Malt on my motor. Will use the same stuff the parts are soaking in now.
Thanks Guys!
Regards,
Jonathan
Just as an FYI, back in the late '60's PFM brought in their version of the Docksider. The body was also cast metal, with finer detail than the Varney model. It did have lost wax cast brass valve gear, which was really nice. I think the model originally listed for about $20. I've got one in pieces on the workbench. Was going to re-motor it with a Faulhaber micro-motor and gearhead, but I managed to burn out the motor and just haven't gotten around to doing any more with it. Since I've been in On3 for a good while, there isn't a high priority on it right now.
a gloss or semi gloss finish of the paint would be fine, then when you're done applying decals. a coat of dull coat will hide all the edges of the decals. and give a very clean surface. At this point it will need the cotton glove treatment.
What follows is a small picture story:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1451.jpg)
Motor broke!
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1452.jpg)
Kite String!
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1453.jpg)
Alcohol Bath! Yes, it ran like a motor boat, baby.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1454.jpg)
She Lives! Actually ran smoother the more she ran.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1457.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1456.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1455.jpg)
Kite string will only last so long. Now I must go down the new motor path. Nuts!
Regards,
Jonathan
Ask the people at Yardbird if they have an exact motor replacement or parts for that motor. If not, then you could go for the new motor
PD,
I will definitely be looking at a new motor from yardbird. They have one made specifically for the Varney Dockside ($30.95).
Tim mentioned that I will kill the motor, if I disassemble it (magnetism will dissappear).
Was probably reaching too back in time anyway. I got a 1966 engine to run very well, with all its original parts. 62 years was probably a bit of a stretch for this old motor. But for now, it will run until I get a replacement. Spilled milk if you will.
Will have to recover from Xmas shopping, before I go ordering any new parts right now. However, I can get on with the painting part, if the thinner solution will ever release the 62-year-old paint!
Regards,
Jonathan
The Bowser website says the valve gear kit will fit Varney Cary & Bowser Docksiders. Not sure they are available. If not, someone out there has some. I bought a valve gear kit for a mantua 0-6-0 awhile ago & never knew they existed.
Jerry,
I have sent a couple of emails to Bowser, inquiring about replacement parts and detailing kits (valve gear). No response is forthcoming. I could never make a valve gear, but I believe I can fashion my own stanchions and grabirons. I have to proceed as if Bowser no longer stocks steamer parts. Perhaps I'll find some parts at the upcoming trains show in January (DC area). I know I can count on kadee to stock some kind of coupler arrangement, when I get to that stage.
R,
J
try yardbird for the parts and valve gear. Much cheaper
I know this going sound a bit bizzare, but here's a suggestion as an interim solution. See if you can get one of those small elastic "scrunchies" that women use in their hair. That should give you a bit of flex, but be better than the kite string. In the long run, yes, try and replace the motor in kind if possible.
ebtnut,
I've tried more bizarre things in the past, so the scrunchy idea sounds good to me. Unfortunately, I couldn't find one small enough to work (my wife and daughter have a small collection of those things). However, I did tie a rubberband around said motor armature and that worked. I ran the undercarriage of the switcher, this morning, for about 20 minutes in each direction. It needs about 55% power to continue to run smoothly (a touch of wobble). Dropping power down to 50% makes the engine start to jerk a little bit. This is good enough for now, until I can get a new motor from Yardbird.
Now I'm concentrating on stripping the old paint. After 60 hours of soaking in paint thinner, I can scratch off the paint with my fingernail, but not a toothbrush. Will continue to soak the shell and cylinder for a few more days to see if the paint loosens up any further.
Also, I've found I can drill holes in the metal with a pin vise, and using some oil as a lubricant. It is a very slow process, but who's in a hurry.
I have about 20 leftover stanchions from all the old GP35 kits I built this past year. I believe I can cut them to length and mount into the small holes I drill.
What's a good bonding agent (glue) for metal?
I may not be prototypical, but with the right glue, I can make it tough. That's a loftier goal, so my son, or future grandson can play with the Varney and not do any serious damage.
First, I'm going to try the handrail on the pilot cross bar (nomenclature?). Will post pics asap, to get an opinion of appearance and sturdiness.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathan
I find that 5min epoxy works very well on metal to metal joints.
Make sure that any lubricants from drilling are removed first.
Just make sure the parts are where you want them before the
glue sets. They aren't moving after that.
Tim Anders
Souderton,PA
Jonathon: I thought about a rubber band, but thought the scruncie might be more durable. Rubber doesn't usually take well to lubricants. I would seriously suggest trying to get the proper hand rail stanchions since they will look much better than those from the Geep. As noted, check with Yardbird. For glue, I prefer gap-filling ACC for jobs like that, but epoxy will work just fine. For the paint removal, if you haven't had much success I would suggest getting some paint stripper from your local home supply store. Another suggestion that has worked for some folks is automotive brake fluid. With any of these, make sure to wear hand protection.
Oh, and one other thing. Use beeswax as a lubricant for your pin vise drilling. It doesn't create the cleaning problems some oils do when your trying to glue or paint. You can get beeswax at a craft store or a sewing supply store.
Great tip on the beeswax! I just happen to have some sitting in an old treadle sewing machine I got stuck with (heirloom). Wondered what that stuff was for... trains of course.
I see that yardbird does have stanchions that are reasonable. Will give it serious thought (one more thing to order along with the motor). I've about decided that I will consider adding the valve gear AFTER the rest of the project is finished. Again, this is something that I hope one of my progeny will want to play with... extra moving parts mean more possibilities for damage.
Thanks, once more, for the wisdom.
Jonathan
I just checked their site and yardbird has all parts for the varney little Joe. They may not be shown but you can ask for them. A lot of parts for these engines can also be acquired from bowser too, but they charge more.
For brush springs, you might use music wire to go under that screw, then use the two ends to hold the two brushes. Put some small shrink tubing on it to insulate the brushes from the spring.
Jim
Thanks, Jim.
I have been trying to noodle out how to put something stiff in there, without shorting the motor. That could get a few more miles out of the old girl. In the end, I'm glad somebody carries a motor and spare parts. It's only a matter of time before something else falls out of that motor.
It's worth it to me that I got her running one more time (causes pleasant flashbacks).
R,
J
OK,
I gave in and ordered the motor and stanchions for the shell grabirons. In the meantime, I added a handrail, coupler lift bar and coupler, to the pilot. Looking for a good piece of metal to replace the front step.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1479-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1478-1.jpg)
The primer is still drying, so I should get some detail back after it dries and is lightly sanded.
That 5 minute epoxy is amazing stuff. I could swing the engine around, hanging by the handrail.
Regards
Jonathan
You can easily replace that missing front step with a piece of plastic. The epoxy you are using will certainly do the trick snd no one will be able to tell if the step is metal or plastic once painted.
It seems like you are having a lot of fun. I purchased an old Mantua8 ball mogul some years back and it was a challenge to get the thing to run properly.
Thanks, I can do plastic, that sounds good.
Yes, this is perhaps the most fun I've had since starting my own layout.
The finished product may not look as good as the Varney in my imagination, but the reward is in the history, family connection, and just plain old tinkering. If it happens to run and pull the 5 Varney cars I've found in the box... well, that's just icing on the cake.
This little engine has been in the back of my mind for years. I couldn't let it die in the attic, or the back of some shelf. If she's gonna go, she's gonna go down running the wheels off.
ooh rah.
Jonathan
Jonathan - I am not trying to hijack your thread; but I couldn't help but marvel at the quality of your photography (if you have seen any of my posted images you will understand my envy). What camera do you use for the shots? You obviously don't use the camera flash (too close to the subject) - what lightning method(s) do you employ?
Feel free to write a post or contact me offline.
Thanks,
Ray
Not a problem, Ray. I use my wife's Nikon Coolpix L100--a point-and-shoot camera. It has a macro feature (extreme close up), but I usually don't use it. My layout has 50W track lighting overhead. I also have one of those cheap and dangerous clamp up spotlights. Hardware stores sell 'em for less than $5 US. The bulb in the spotlight is a 100W, new fangled, energy saving bulb, that wouldn't fit in a lamp in the house. The camera is self focusing. HOWEVER, it will focus on the lightest object in the scene, not what's in the center. Makes for a challenge to focus on black steam engines! To get a sharper image, I either rest the camera on the layout, or put my elbows on the layout to steady things. I pull a piece of paper out of the printer from time-to-time, if I don't want a background.
That's about it. I'm no photographer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;)
Regards,
Jonathan
Thanks for the comeback Jonathan. I shoot with a Canon A70 (only 3.2 mps) and am looking for another camera. I think the secret to your success is the external lighting (like I really know what I am talking about).
Everyone else: Thanks for the understanding; but Jonathan's pictures are clear and well lit and now I know how he accomplished that feat.
Regards,
Ray
May I just say that paint removal is my new unfavorite part of this hobby (use to be #80 drill bits).
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1485.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1484.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1483.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1482.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1481.jpg)
Good thing this is a kid friendly forum. I can think of a few choice words right now.
Oh well, I drilled some holes and back into the vat she goes.
Regards,
Jonathan
you have done a great job with the paint removal. How long have soaked it? What are you using? The detail is starting to show up great.
Thanks, PD.
The pieces have been soaking for 6 days, in regular paint thinner from a hardware store. I was finally able to rub the cylinders completely clean. So they are ready for primer. I think it will take a couple of more days for the shell (lots o' rivets and such). Which leads to the next step...
How do I prep the metal. Is there something called "pickling" so the metal will accept the primer?
Regards,
Jonathan
Some use vinegar. Throw it out after prepping the engine.
Jonathan - I had to strip and repaint a Lionel locomotive years ago and I believe I used automotive (not aircraft - which is vegetable based) brake fluid. I don't remember having the trouble removing the paint as you seem to be experiencing (or is it simply a suppressed memory?). As pdlethbridge mentions; I used vinegar to 'pickle' the surface. You might want to procure a small can of brake fluid and try it on one of the engine parts.
I have a feeling that this engine restoration/improvement project will lead to others. We see numerous 'abandoned souls' in boxes under tables that can be had for almost nothing.
Ray
Yeah, I was hoping to get by without having to buy yet another chemical. If I ever do this again, I will have to try the brake fluid. Of course, the results of this project will determine how motivated I feel about doing it again. This is loads of fun (except for the paint stripping part).
Regards,
Jonathan
your wife will never miss a little vinegar. just don't return it to the bottle
If all the parts on the shell are metal, I would be using lacquer thinner to get the paint off. DO NOT use lacquer thinner on plastic as it will melt it. You wont have to soak it long either.
Oh Man, did I pick the wrong goo! I only used it because I had a whole gallon of it the previous owners of this house had left behind. Once again, trying to save a buck makes more trouble than it's worth. Will I ever learn?
Oh well, a couple more days and the last of the paint should be gone anyway. Plus, I am able to take my time drilling a hole here and there, then stick it back in the mayonnaise jar.
There are no preset drilling points, but I am going to put the two roundy grabirons around the smoke box. These are the last of the holes to be drilled. I've been studying a photo to try to get the placement right.
Oh, a by-the-way question: I drilled two holes in the back (points were there). Does anyone know if that is a handrail location? I really suspect a ladder goes there, but I can't find a photo of the rear of the locomotive.
Regards,
Jonathan
After stripping you may want file & sand down the parting lines on the body. They do show up in your pictures...Jerry
Since, those pics were taken, I have been filing, sanding (600 grit) and brinelling everything that looks like it doesn't belong. If I miss something, I hope it shows up after the first layer of primer goes on. That won't be for a while. I've lots of grabiron stuff to mount first. I forgot to ask, but I need a whistle, too. Hopefully, yardbird has one to send.
Thanks,
Jonathan
I don't think you need to worry about soaking in vinegar. This has been suggested for brass models to give a bit of "tooth" to the surface. But cast metal is somewhat porus already. Normally, all you need to do is wash the parts well in a good dish detergent and let dry thoroughly before painting.
ebtnut,
With all the detail I'm adding to this shell, I'm starting to get a little nervous about the paint job. I'm getting to the "better safe than sorry" stage. If I dip this non-brass item in vinegar, can I hurt it? or will pickling likely do neither good nor damage?
Small update: since I couldn't find a photo of the rear of the prototype, I've decided to add a ladder to the back. The other option was just a plain grabiron. The ladder will look more impressive. My plan is to hold off on any more photos until I have the thing primed and ready to paint. That will be a good spot to get advice.
Looking forward to all the upgrades from Yardbird.
Regards,
Jonathan
Paint Removal: it's gotten to where I am scraping the last of the paint with a jewelers screwdriver (between the rivets). I'm quickly reaching a point it's going to have to be good enough.
Parts: I placed order online for parts and a motor. Called (left message) and emailed (no response). I'll give Dan at Yardbird a little more time. I know he's moving to a new location.
In the meantime, I've been playing with miniature metalwork. I'm not that good, admittedly. But anything is an improvement to my Little Joe.
Here's a few pics. Grabirons aren't permanent at this point (press fit). Never did find a photo of the back of this loco.... so I made a ladder for it.
Enjoy!
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1491-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1490-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1489-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1488-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1487-1.jpg)
Quote from: jonathan on December 14, 2009, 07:32:39 PM
ebtnut,
With all the detail I'm adding to this shell, I'm starting to get a little nervous about the paint job. I'm getting to the "better safe than sorry" stage. If I dip this non-brass item in vinegar, can I hurt it? or will pickling likely do neither good nor damage?
Small update: since I couldn't find a photo of the rear of the prototype, I've decided to add a ladder to the back. The other option was just a plain grabiron. The ladder will look more impressive. My plan is to hold off on any more photos until I have the thing primed and ready to paint. That will be a good spot to get advice.
Looking forward to all the upgrades from Yardbird.
Regards,
Jonathan
Your Varney body-shell is made of an alloy called either MAZAK [Europe] or ZAMAK [USA] and dousing it in vinegar will only make it taste funny.
It has already need recommended that you give it a thorough clean in hot water with a toothbrush and scouring powder, and then let it dry and do not handle it with bare hands to avoid getting oily fingerprints on it. Then use any of the quality etching primers available for hobby duties. Allow at least 48 hours drying time, then spray it with the colour of your choice - again leaving it 48 hours before handling it.
tac
www.ovgrs.org
Got it. Scrub it good, let dry, don't get fingerprints on it. No problem.
Thanks,
J
The Motor and decals are in the mail! Valve gears won't be ready until spring. That's gives me a chance to think about how badly I want to add additional moving parts.
Regards,
Jonathan
Bearing in mind I've never done this before.... here she is with a coat of primer. I used cotton gloves to place the pieces on the frame. It has been drying for 26 hours at this point.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1495-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1492-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1494-1.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1493-1.jpg)
I decided I like my homemade stanchions and grabirons... gives my offspring something to talk about to their offspring. It won't be a museum piece, but I like it. Hopefully there's a grandson who'll want to tinker with it one day.
Regards,
Jonathan
I think it looks really good so far
With all the effort so far you might want to try the Valve Gear. You have gone all out and the "extra moving parts" could be the crowning glory for this little Dockside. Very nice.
RIGHT...that engine cries for valve gear. Jerry
Quote from: jerryl on December 16, 2009, 09:41:08 AM
RIGHT...that engine cries for valve gear. Jerry
I agree!
(But then I don't have to put the valve gear together. ... ;) ;D )
Very nice primer job. Your homemade stanchions look great - who could tell that they're not stock.
Do try to get valve gear. I noticed that you have a main rod and riveted crosshead. I think that you may need to change these once you have obtained valve gear.
A project like you are doing is never ending and a lot of fun.
You are doing a really great job. Perhaps next you should rejuvente a Varney Casey Jones or another engine from that era.
Well... I seem to be getting several votes for the valve gear. Yes, I will need a new crosshead, too. The present one has no way to connect without performing major micro surgery. Yardbird promises to have a fine working valve gear available in the Spring. That little contraption will cost more than the added costs of the engine, motor, paint, epoxy, worn out drill bits, decals and the kite string!
It's only money right? This locomotive has lasted 62 years, most of my money doesn't last nearly that long :)
If you do go for the valve gear (and I think you should), make sure and get some extra valve gear rivets. I doubt that anyone still carries the Penn Line "Rivetool", which was specially designed for the purpose. In the absence of the special tool, you will need a centerpunch and a small hammer, plus a great deal of patience. If and when you get to that point, the folks here can discuss technique further.
Actually, Yardbird does carry the rivetool. Plus, I have three centerpunches: small, smaller, and tiny. They came in handy with track nails, many moons ago.
You know, one of these days, I have to get back to scenery...
Thanks, guys, for your great advice, technical know-how and valued opinions. It keeps me going. In the coming weeks, I hope to post a rebirth announcement.
Regards,
Jonathan
WOW!!
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1496.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1497.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1499.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1500.jpg)
Watch Out! Wet Paint! She's spending the next 48 hours in the guest bathroom (no guests allowed).
Regards (with a tear in my eye),
J
Jonathan
Are you aware that you are missing the crosshead guides?
they are the two rods that extend from the main cylinders at
top and bottom an support the crosshead and piston rod>
Tim Anders
Souderton, PA
Tim,
Yes, there are no crosshead guides. The locomotive came that way when new. There are pre-drilled holes for crosshead guides. The original crossheads have no loops, or stays, to slip into crosshead guides.
Part of the package for the valve gear are new crossheads and guides, along with the valve gear. I may be upgrading these pieces this summer. There seems to be a unanimous opinion that I need these pieces to complete this project. All of you are invited over to my house to help me assemble these, when they arrive. Bring tiny tools and big magnifying glasses!
For now, a question. Do I need a second coat of paint? The first coat turned out so well, I'm afraid to shoot the shell again. Don't want to mess up the first coat.
I Checked the finish after 9 hours. There are no drips, no ant footprints, no hairs, no bubbles... nothing seems to be out of order, with the exception of that shelf thingy that sits between the stack and the boiler. Spray would not reach into that little crevice. I think I can spray some paint into a cup, and use a small brush to get that last area. Only I would think to look there anyway.
Regards,
Jonathan
Outstanding Jonathan!! It looks like the finish on some builder's photographs from the late 19th Century (and before the first firing dulled the paint). I don't know...I don't think I would chance a second coat. Your idea of spraying into a cup and then 'touching up' is a good one. Why not stop while you are ahead? At a later date you could overspray with dull clear coat; but that would only be 'window dressing' ('better first check with our forum experts on the compatibility of clear coat and the paint you used).
You deserve a lot of credit for the entire project, your excellent photography, and the willingness to include us into the process.
KUDOS,
Ray
Looks very nice!
Looks like you have a nice glossy surface to apply decals to. Are you planning to decal the engine? If you want to keep it prototypical it should be a B&O #98 or #99. You should apply a dull overcoat after decaling.
Not sure if the roof or smokebox was a different color...have to do some research. Jerry
Thanks for the kind words, guys. It gets more exciting every time I do something to the engine.
I have ordered B&O decals that are suppose to resemble what Varney put on the engine... not necessarily the right color for the prototype (a dirty yellowish gold color). I'm going with #98, as it appears the rest of the locos were modified in ways I don't want to play with.
From all the photos I can find, it looks like the smoke box and cab roof were the same color as the rest of the engine. Admittedly, it can be hard to tell from old B&W photos.
A couple of the superdetailing companies do sell brass whistles, too. #98 had a left-hand side mounted whistle on the middle dome. Yet another hole to drill at some point.
I went for a high gloss finish for various reasons: not the least of which was adding decals. Then I can decide how shiny or dull I want the loco. Right now, I'm leaning towards the shiny side. Time will tell.
Regards,
Jonathan
The lettering color I believe is called Dulux Gold. Did you get around to fixing the front step?
So how much has the build cost you so far? What the heck, you'd only throw it away on food, housing or gasoline!!
Now you have to build a diorama of the Baltimore dock area so you can properly display the engine!
Quote from: Woody Elmore on December 17, 2009, 07:59:53 PM
The lettering color I believe is called Dulux Gold.
I'm pretty sure that's it too.
Jonathan: Like they say in the Godfather: "I'm going to make you an offer that you can't refuse."
I just remembered that I was working on making a 0-4-4 On30 Forney from a kit I got on Ebay. It required the chassis from a Bowser B&O engine. I have the frame,cylinders, crosshead guides,crossheads, side rods, drivers. hex screws, - complete except (alas) I removed the front steps because I was going to add O scale ones. They're yours if you'd like them. I'm never going to finish the kit (Bachmann Forneys are a thousand times nicer!)
Let me know if you are interested. The shipping is $2,350. Just kidding - they're yours if you'd like them - free(what a concept!)
Dulux Gold, that's the one.
I have not fixed the front step, yet. I know how I'm going to do it. Saving it for when I'm done with the shell.
Cost? Let's see...
Varney, Little Joe $15 (in 1947. perhaps $200 in today's cash?)
Mashima motor $30.95
Two cans of Model Master
Spray Paint (Primer & Classic
Black) $10.00
Worn out drill bits $ 5.00 to replace
B&O Decals $ 3.00
Brass Whistle (on order) $ 2.50
Couplers $ 1.75
Shipping $ 3.00
Soooo that comes to $56.20 (less the loco cost). Don't forget the valve gear. That's going to be another $50.
It adds up.
Woody,
Guess we were posting at the same time. I sent you an email.
S,
Jonathan
Jim (Banner),
If you're out there. I tried your 'baking the shell' idea to harden the paint faster. I meant to ask first, but I thought I'd try it out. I went easy on it; 200 deg (F) for about 45 minutes. Did I do any good? It's too hot to touch at the moment. The paint didn't run off, so I'm guessing it's okay.
Regards,
Jonathan
Addendum, Against my instincts, I went ahead and put a second coat of paint on the shell. I also baked that coat (200 degF) for an hour. I let it cool, slowly, in the oven. Looks OK. I can tell that I will definitely have to dull the finish, after I get the decals on.
My dullcoting usually ends up looks a little gritty, which is OK for weathering, but I need to do it better for this project. Any help on doing a good job on dullcote?
R,
J
Ideally, you should apply the Dullcote with an airbrush. You didn't specify if that's what you used on the basic paint job. As it comes out of the can, the Dullcote goes on pretty thick, and can give you that "gritty" look. I spray the Dullcote from the can into a disposable cup, cut it with some lacquer thinner or similar thinner, then pour the mix into the airbrush cup to spray. Thinning the Dullcote gives you more control on the amount of "dull" you want. For your purposes, I would think a "semi-gloss" finish would work - just enough so that is doesn't shine, but still has some highlights.
I have not invested in an airbrush system. I really don't have a place to set up a booth. I don't know when or if I will go down that road. I know the difference is night and day when it comes to model painting.
I had to use the (Testor's?) Model Master spray paints in a can (enamel). My heart was in my throat the whole time I was shooting the black paint. Iwas trying every trick I read about to get the paint to lay on evenly.
Perhaps if I use the semi-gloss dullcote (didn't know there was such a thing), I can lay it on just thick enough to prevent the grittiness. It's going to be hard to see up against the glossly black.
Perhaps one can 'buff' the dullcote, once it's dry?
Thanks for the help, ebtnut.
S,
Jonathan
i JUST DULL COATED A BRASS b&m R1D and it came out smooth as silk because I painted, sprayed, fast, not pause or slowing in any one spot. Can spray painting is okay but you should move fast with the can.
PD,
I hear you. I do try to move quick when shooting across the piece. Would love to see a picture of that R1D.
R,
Jonathan
I'll ask my brother to send a picture, it's his engine.
Noting PD's comments, here's some more thoughts. When spraying with either an airbrush or from a can, start the spray away from the model, then pass beyond the model before stopping. This helps keep the paint even and avoids runs. A lot of weathering comes from above - rain, cinders, soot, etc. When getting ready to do the Dullcote, you might try spraying directly down at the top of the model. Give it one pass, let it dry for a minute or two and see how it looks. Maybe two passes from the top, and one quick one along the sides might give a nice effect.
Very well. I will practice on a piece of rolling stock that may be a bit too shiny. Thanks again, guys.
I guess Jim didn't see my question on the last page. Anybody else out there ever bake their finishes?
Thanks again,
Jonathan
I have never done it, and I don't know if any one else has.
You will want to put on your decals before you spray with dullcote. By the way you can get clear dull in a bottle. It may not be dullcote but the same results.
Yes, some folks do in fact bake their paint jobs. One guy I know made his own paint baking oven by taking one of those big gallon-size tin cans, like Charles Chips used to come in, installing a light socket in it, and putting in a 100w bulb. He hinged the lid so he didn't have to pull it on and off. Put the model in, turn the light on, let bake for about 4 hours.
I booked time in my wife's oven (very early am). I found 200 degrees to be okay. I was just wondering if anyone had an ideal temperature. All the online resources (artsy stuff) never really gave a good formula for baking metal that had been painted. I suppose they want you to buy the book.
The bulb-in-a-can idea sounds like a great idea (easybake oven).
I'm still waiting on decals, in order to complete the shell. With the recent snow storm, and mail stoppage, I probably won't be working on the Little Joe for while. Will update this thread as soon as I can get back to the engine. Until then, I'm fashioning a little display box and the front step.
More in the near future I hope.
Thanks, as always, for the great help all of you have been.
Regards,
Jonathan
hey jonathan that engine looks really good
Jonathan,
I did reply but I don't see my post. Maybe I shut the browser down too quickly or maybe I just forgot to post it. Sorry.
Two hundred degrees F works for me, I usually bake things for about 1/2 hour if they had a chance to dry properly first (usually overnight.) But sometimes I am in a hurry and will bake for 3/4 hour to 1 hour if the paint is only partly dry to start.
One half hour of baking hardens the paint about as much a curing for 3 months or so and greatly reduces the chance of scratching it while working on it.
Jim
Personally I'd be worried to find a puddle of zamak in the oven after heat treating the paint.
No fear, PD. Zamac doesn't melt until it is over 700o F. Even a self cleaning oven doesn't make it that high.
Jim
Thanks, Jim. It's good to know if nothing else, I did no damage.
OK, this will be my last update before Xmas.
I made a step from L-shaped styrene (scrap). I also made mounting brackets by shaping and cutting a little wire, which was epoxied to the old brackets. I will show these pics, but please remember, these are VERY small pieces, so it will look at little rough up close:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1563.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1559.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1560.jpg)
I have since put a little primer on the step and will paint soon.
While we're at it, here's a little case I modified from a Model Power Truck case:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1564.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1565.jpg)
Now I have some place to keep her when I'm not showing off my meager skills.
Regards,
Jonathan
PS, watching the paint dry on the second coat:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1507.jpg)
the step looks great! Are you going to paint the bell brass?
Absolutely!
I don't know about the rest of you, but my opinion of Jonathan is that he is one clever guy. His photography is excellent, his posts are well written and concise (something with which I 'occasionally' have a problem), and his work is done to the highest level. Jonathan, it is too bad you live so far up in 'Yankeeland'. I would love to have someone, of your caliber, living in our town...just think of what I could learn.
Happy Holidays - and thanks for sharing this informative thread,
Ray
Thanks, Ray. Coming from Minnesota, I think I've reached about as far into the deep South as I can get. ;)
I don't know about all my skills, but I will say that everything I am doing to bring this little switcher to life I learned by reading this forum... the whole forum. The knowledge base and experience that is freely shared on "Ask the Bach Man" is a treasure house to enjoy for all ages.
Jonathan
Jonathan: Great work. Keep it up! :D Best wishes for the holidays. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.
All,
Just want to take a moment to publicly thank Woody. He sent me crosshead guides, crossheads, driver and side rods, rivets and screws. I am now adding those pieces. Those rivets are so incredibly tiny! I fashioned a rivetool by filing the end of a track nail, as smooth as I could. It worked, but I am nervous about how well my rivet job will hold. Time will tell. I will order extra rivets, and a proper rivetool, when the valve gear becomes available.
The rear screw seems long enough to support the valve gear connection, too.
Thanks again, Woody! The new parts look great!
Still waiting on the decals from Yardbird...
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon - thanks for the nice posting. I know you'll be putting those parts to good use.
And, yes, the rear screw and bushing assembly is designed to allow for an eccentric crank - that's a part of the valve gear, not my neighbor!
Merry Christmas to all - I hope Santa Claus is good to everyone.
First the good news...
The motor and decals arrived today!
Now the bad news...
I haven't got a clue which tab to connect to the left side (wire), nor do I know where to connect to the frame (right side).
Please rescue me from my ignorance.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1566.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1567.jpg)
Merry Christmas!
Jonathan
Jonathan
Connect the red one (lower tab in your photo) to the frame, and the upper blue
one to the wiper assembly.
With plus on the right hand rail, the loco should go forward.
If it runs in reverse, simply reverse the motor connections.
If you are planning on DCC the orange wire goes to the motor tab that is
currently connected to the right hand rail.
Tim Anders
Souderton, PA
Tim,
Thank you, sir! Too close to Christmas to complete... but I'm getting close!
Venite Adoramus!
Sincerely,
Jonathan
I hope you shoot a video of this thing moving when you get it all hooked up. Looks like its gonna be a fine little loco!
Apparently, there is a short video mode on my wife's camera. If/When everthing is ready, I'll give the moving pictures a try. I'm trying to set up a little Varney train for the loco to pull. I have three gondolas, two hoppers, and a Caboose that are all Varney. That would be very rewarding, if I can pull it off. Should have the motor running in the morning. Still have lots of work to do on the shell: decal, dullcote glazing, lights, engineer, etc.
Regards,
Jonathan
Motor works very fine! Thanks again, Tim!
Regards,
Jonathan
John: Nice work again! So what is the current price tag - or aren't you keeping count?
I never thought about doing a Varney train or Penn Line train. There are lots of Varney cars floating around. If I remember correctly the originals had really sharp, deep, plastic flanges. You might want to convert to better trucks.
When I started in HO I always wanted a Varney bay window caboose but I never could get one in any of the hobby shops in the NY metro area. This was before mail order or the internet. They turn up on Ebay and most sell for about $10. Not bad for a kit that originally sold for about $2 fifty years ago.
You could get completely bonkers and get all Varney B&O cars to put behind the dockside. Just a thought.
Woody,
I had to buy some dullcote, so I'm up to about $60 US so far. Tried the semigloss and she's still a little too shiny. Oh well, I tried.
I'm discovering more Varney cars in my Grandfather's old collection. None are B&O, but there is an undecorated caboose (can't recall the body style; center cupola?), to which I have added B&O decals. Prototypical? Doubtful. But I have taken a little license here and there with the switcher, too.
I'm always on the lookout for B&O equipment (Varney or otherwise). Recently, I Picked up a bunch of B&O hoppers for cheap (blue box kits already assembled). Oh and yes, I re-truck and recouple everything I want to run on the layout. Learned that lesson... I'm joining a club in January, and I know they must require the proper trucks and couplers to run on their layout.
Merry Christmas!
Jonathan
PS Gotta get back to cookin'. The whole family is coming over for Xmas Eve, and I'm in charge of the Lasgna!
The blue box have good trucks if you just change out the wheels.
I still have a lot of work to do... but she's to the point where she will run all in one piece. And, at nearly 63 years old, she needed a little work out, anyway. I couldn't help but put her on the test loop, with a few Varney cars in tow. Grabbed a few pics while I was at it:
Enjoy:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1600.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1601.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1602.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1603.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1604.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1605.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1606.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1607.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1609.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1612.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1613.jpg)
The headlights are big drops of craft glue. Still looking for lenses that will fit. The craft glue lenses pop right out when pushed from the back. I need to replace the bulbs, too. The new motor is so efficient, I can't run her past 35% power. Will have to put in 1.5v bulbs so you can see them.
Regards,
Jonathan
really looking good , thats amazing work
Looks nice put back together, ready for another lifetime of service.
Jonathan, a tribute to your excellent craftsmanship is the fact that this thread is rapidly growing longer than the engine and train pictured!
Kudos! I am bowing in the general direction of Minnesota.
Ray
Jonathan, I have enjoyed your project very much. Adding the two Varney hoppers to the most recent photos is perfect. Thanks for your "documentary" :)
Robert
hey J where did you get the lettering for the engine
Thanks for the kind words, guys. She's progressing along. Still have a list of things to do (bell, whistle, valve gear, etc, etc).
I got the decals from Yardbird. However they are a Champ Product, "B&O Steam Loco Decals". The color is actually "Bronze/Gold". B&O Decals are near impossible to find. Microscale only had passenger car and F Unit decals for B&O. I couldn't find the Champ decals on line, either, but Yardbird had 'em.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon: I think you win the prize for longest string of postings. It is a pleasure to see positive comments. I'm sure that you have stimulated the kit building centers in some people's brains!
Now that you have the dockside ready to go you need to work on that diorama of the downtown Baltimore dock area. That would give you the added incentive to do another dockside since the Beano had two of the things!
Well... I think it's time to let this thread go. Wasn't intending to set any kind of record. But I had such good input/help/encouragement from so many of you, it kept driving me on to complete as much as possible. Can't thank you enough. When I finally get all the rest of the parts, I'll start a new thread, just to post a completed shot or, too. This has been a world of fun.
As far as the Baltimore docks go, I have enough scenery that I'll never finish the way it is.
Thanks a million to all of you!
Sincerely,
Jonathan
Had to contribute something to the "record" thread, especially since you commented that you will be adding the valve gear.
The prototypes were built by Baldwin in 1912 specifically for switching in tight quarters in Baltimore, often working into industries reached from street trackage. These engines were pretty heavy for 0-4-0Ts, 66 tons, with a 33-ton axle load; that axle load would be respectable into the Superpower era. There were four engines originally, fitted up as oil-burners. Two would later be rebuilt as coal-burning tender engines, and be reassigned to Philadelphia, again working in tight places there, in situations like those for which the Pennsylvania built its A5s 0-4-0s.
Some photos and comments, photos courtesy of Northeast Railfan:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/
We start by going into the B&O steam roster:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html
Scrolling down the page, we go to the class C-16, the Docksides. Clicking on engine numbers brings up photos, like these:
The first is a builder's photo at Baldwin. Notable details to note on the engines as delivered include the older lettering style, accetyline headlights, the whistle mounted on the right side of the steam dome, the ladder that's visible on the rear of the oil bunker through the cabwindows, what looks like a wooden cab, and the lack of a platform around the stack for a man to stand on while filling the water tank at the filler ahead of the stack.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo99s.jpg
In 1938, the lettering is changed, the platform for the water filler is in place, the water filler itself is now taller and square, the headlights are electric, there are additional grabirons in certain places, the whistle looks to have been moved (but its pipe is still visible), and there are additional items added, like those towing chains for working in places where cars can't negotiate curves when they are coupled together. On this section of the B&O, there are curves that would be more apropriate on a trolley line!
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00002395
No. 97's most notable detail variation is the much smaller platform at the water filler in 1947:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo97sa.jpg
The engines were renumbered into the 890 series inthe early 1950s to clear their numbers for new diesels. What stands out in this photo is the B&O Capitol dome emblem on the front of the engine. This was a cast item, done in the late 1940's as a way to make sure the image of the B&O would be made plain in published photos. The Docksides got the treatment of a road engine!
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo898s.jpg
Just for the record, photos of one of the rebuilt engines in Philadelphia:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo99sa.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo99sc.jpg
Enjoy. And just to contemplate, can you imagine a model railroad built on this theme, with lots of ancient industrial buidings, street trackage, and perhaps ships and Bachmann Peter Witts, too?
J3a-614,
You have found some excellent photos I never ran across. Makes me want to strip my Varney down and start adding some more doodads.
Still waiting on the Yardbird valve gear... and a brass whistle that's been on backorder for about 6 months now.
I have fashioned a small switcher headlight that goes just below the front of the smoke box. Made it from a leftover piece of brass tubing. I also found two old headlight lenses from MV products (must be ancient). I sanded off the silver backing so the bulbs will shine through. They fit in the lower headlight and the the rear light. Still need a proper lens for the upper front headlight. I have an engineer and firemam for the cab.
Will start the finishing touches as soon as the valve gear gets here. The drive mechanism is going to get neolubed. The whole thing should be really nice looking after the final stage is complete.
By the way, The Dockside will pull more cars than the Bowser G5 and the Mantua Mikado. Weird...
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon - I recall that my Penn Line atlantic and consolidation never pulled many cars. Now you know why Varney outsold Penn Line.
I think the pictures are great. In one fireman's side picture there is a galvanized pail next to the compressor-that would be an interesting little addition. Finding HO size chain might be a challenge.
As for MV lenses - I remember that people used to drill a little hole in the back of the lens and then glue in a GOW bulb. You could do the same with fiber optics.
Jonathan and Woody,
Glad you like what you see, and hope you are using this as a springboard to look for other photos and things. And I'm glad Woody spotted that bucket--that's something I missed.
One of the interesting things about these 0-4-0Ts is how compact they were, with the air compressor and the power reverse being in a recess in the cab or in the cab itself. At the same time, it is fascinating that the B&O put so much "state of the art" technology into these 4 engines in a very secondary service--power reverse, piston valves and Walschart's valve gear, and superheating.
Chain shouldn't be too hard to find, based on this page from Walthers, just using the the word "chain," There are some other items in there, like chain link fence, but there is chain, too:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=H&manu=&item=&keywords=chain&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
Now, what to use for hooks? Would these be small enough, or would something scratched up from a piece of wire be better?
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/152-402
Keep having fun.
Those look like hooks that are used for real heavy lifting, ie, crane. Make them out .020 brass wire or smaller. They may have been used to pull cars into another position on a siding.
Actually, I was going to use metal lift rings/eye bolts as hooks. I've found you can bend them out into a hook form, if your careful. The advantage is you can drill a hole (#78-#80 bit) and epoxy the 'hook' into the cylinder. We're talking really small stuff, so a little lack of realism isn't going to matter in these sizes.
I found some copper chain, at a craft store, for about $2. It's a little big. In HO scale, the links are somewhere between 4 and 5 inches in size. Again, it's still really small so a little lack of scale won't bother me. I 'painted' a little chain with a sharpie. That works well, too.
So one more detail for the Varney. I've got a little pile growing of detail parts. Just need the valve gear...
It encourages me that there are others interested in playing with this old equipment. I really like reaching back into early HO history and rescuing this great gear. Most of it just needs a little TLC and a new power plant.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon - you have discovered the fun of working on what some people consider to be old clunkers. With the advances in motors and the plethora of detail parts, those old engines can be made into a credible model.
I think it is unfortunate thay the hobby has turned into a "shake the box" hobby. I always enjoyed the challenge of getting couplers just right and painting and decaling rolling stock.
Let's hope you get the PRR decals soon for the G-5. As for its pulling capacity, putting three nice Pennsy coaches behind it would make a nice train. Just a thought.
Found this photo of a Dockside at work; the Pratt Street line worked mostly at night to avoid the bulk of auto traffic.
http://www.trains.com/ctr/objects/images/0-4-0_3.jpg
Details of note include the brakemen's lanterns hanging on some of the handrails on the smokebox, the siding going into the building, and what appear to be span wires for a trolley line above the locomotive, which is apparently crossing a street railway--great theme for a small layout, or even a fair-sized one, featuring the Docksides, freight cars, street trackage, and Bachmann's Baltimore Peter Witts. . .
Most of the trackage the Docksides ran on is gone, but this surviving track in Baltimore looks very typical of what any old city would have, and would have been very similar to the world of the C-16s. . .
http://www.btco.net/ghosts/railroads/street/streettrack.html
This is from this site:
http://www.btco.net/ghosts/
Enjoy.
Got that photo. Used it as a go-by while working on the engine.
R,
J
Never mind the steamer - that NYC box car is very interesting with its panel doors.
I'm not absolutely certain, but I think the NYC box you see is a standard car on the NYC, similar to the Pennsy's famous X-29 box and a contemporary of it. Basically, it is a proposed USRA steel-sheathed box that was never built under USRA jurisdiction. NYC attempted to have it adopted as an AAR or ARA standard, but that never came about, and this car would only be used by the NYC and affiliated lines, while the PRR's X-29s would be copied by several roads, including Wheeling & Lake Erie, Lehigh & New England, and the B&O, and perhaps others. The B&O cars were notable in being among the last cars of any type to be delivered with arch bar trucks for interchange service in the late 1920s, which of course they did not keep too long, as arch bars were banned from interchange around 1934 or 1935.
It's a one road car, but it is still surprising it has not been mass-produced, considering its large numbers, many variations (the doors you see are one of them), and the presence of so many NYC cars in interchange service around the country. It's been said that every model railroader models the Pennsylvania because its cars ran all over the place in interchange service (and the the PRR had the country's largest freight car fleet), but the NYC didn't have a fleet you could sneeze at either. I guess it's one of those puzzles, like why a larger assortment of B&O engines isn't available, yet we seem at times to swim in PRR locomotives, and not the thousands of 2-8-0s, but mostly K4s at that! Not that the B&O has been immune, when you also consider how many firms have offered Docksides over they years--and the prototypes numbered only four engines in a specialized service!
I remember Trains Miniature had a version of the X-29. I may have had one in the old NYC colors.
The TM line offered different cars. A friend collected all their beer reefers. The company was bought by Walthers.
They are not as detailed as today's cars but they still add variery to consists (assuming you don't put them behind the latest diesels.)
OK, I've reached a stumbling block.
For those that have been following along, my Li'l Joe went from this:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1433.jpg)
to this:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1607.jpg)
I have since collected more detail parts:
brass whistle
hooks and chain for the steam chest
engineer and fireman
lower headlight, bulb and lens (mounts below the smoke box)
lens for the rear light
new couplers
constant headlight circuit
HOWEVER, I've have been scouring the internet and train shows for a valve gear. Some of you may remember the unanimous vote for the valve gear. You talked me into it. Now the hard part is finding one.
Bowser sold out of 'em long ago. CV used to make one. They don't do that sort of thing anymore. Dan at Yardbird has been trying to scratch one up that he can mass produce (apparently he gets a lot of calls about the gear). He has been unsuccessful to date. The Rivarossi Dockside, with valve gear shows up on ebay from time to time. Unfortunately, the Rivarossi valve hangar mounts to the frame right where the Varney motor is mounted. Still, I've been trying to work out how I might modify the valve gear hangar to fit the Varney. I'm no engineer. Frankly my scratchbuilding stuff is pretty mediocre at best.
Anyway, I'm out of ideas. If anybody else can think of a possible source, I'd be glad to hear it. Frustrated, but not willing to give up. The engine runs well enough that I can keep it in the active roster.
Thanks for letting me air out my angst.
Regards,
Jonathan
p.s. There's a guy named Earl Smallshaw. If I can get the link to work, I'll add a photo of his Varney here. It's truly inspirational.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Railfan%20Stuff/Dockside.jpg)
I'll keep my eyse open.
Jon - I'll keep my eyes open for Varney dockside valve gear. It might be easier to find a modest politician!
I think that the Earl Smallshaw picture is probably 40 years old. He used to contribute to MR. Will the original Varney valve gear work with the new motor?
Haven't found any valve gear yet, but I found someone else who likes "heavy metal;"
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.viewVideos&contributorid=34062523
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55473330
Wonder where this fellow lives?
Thanks for that. I'm hitting the Timonium Show in September. Maybe I'll get lucky.
Sean's been working the old engines. There's something relaxing about working the kinks out of that old stuff. I wonder where he's from, too.
The new motor should not interfere with a valve gear. It fits exactly like the original motor. It actually takes up less space. I've been trying to noodle out a way to file a notch in the frame, so a valve gear hangar could mount between the frame and the motor. It could either screw in or rely on pressure from the frame and motor mount to hold it in place. In that way, the Rivarrosi gear would hold. Then one would have to drill into the steam chest. A scary prospect. Once one removes the metal, it's gone and there is no turning back.
On a side note, I've been looking at pics of the C&O 4-8-4 #614, especially the West Virginia shots. Trying to figure out which fan is the real "J3a" reaching out to touch the engine... ;D
Regards,
Jonathan
FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Earl's loco is the PFM version, which did come with lost wax brass valve gear. I believe the "T" inside the "builder's plate (where the "V" shows on Jonathon's Varney model) stands for Tenshodo. Note the cast-in representation of the power reverse just ahead of the cab, which doesn't appear on the Varney model. As I think I mentioned previously, I have the PFM version. I tired re-motoring it with a Faulhaber micro-motor and gearhead, but did something wrong and burned the motor out. It's still on the back of the workbench 15 years later, waiting for me to get back around to it after I get done with the 30 other projects that need to get done too. ;)
Wow. Good catch. When I read his article, he said it was a Varney and he used a Central Valley valve gear. However, I can now see the "T" on the plate. I just assumed he added the power reverse. Something is fishy.
You can have one of my roundtuits to fix your PFM dockside. :)
R,
J
It's quite possible that Earl did in fact detail a Varney loco and add the CV valve gear. Maybe years later, when the pic was to be taken, he just grabbed a Docksider, not remembering that it was the PFM, not the old Varney. These things happen.
Looks like Jon might want to start a Dockside collection. At least, let's see what else might be out there while waiting for the valve gear to turn up.
Speak of the devil! Darn, it's been sold!
http://brasstrains.org/sakura-brass-cast-0-4-0t-dockside-locomotive
Well, this is interesting, actually has reversing valve gear. You do need that in a large-scale live steam model. Electric version available, too. Who wants to model Pratt Street in Baltimore in Gauge 1?
http://www.americanmainline.com/loco-G722.htm
I wonder if this is still there; an IHC version (copy of AHM-Rivarossi); probably not as good as a proper Varney, but maybe it's at least available:
http://www.ustrainco.com/Loco-St-0-4-0-Dockside.htm
Not a Dockside, but a Varney, specifically an 0-8-0 based on the Reading 2-8-0; looks like something from the Lehigh & New England:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250626141910
Came from here:
http://www.modeltrainprice.com/index.php?model=Santa+Fe+2000&scale=38278
Again, not a Dockside, not even a locomotive, but it is a distinctive B&O piece, the prototype was probably built in the car shop at Keyser, W.Va., not a bad way to start into brass if you can get it at that price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140403968566
I'm afraid I'm not doing too well, but maybe there is still something you can use:
http://www.modeltrainprice.com/index.php?model=Santa+Fe+2000&scale=97780
Just seeing what else might turn up:
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/gem-models-brass-sh-119-o-class-c16-4-68636633
Life Like, back in the bad old days, had a cheap version; you can probably tell I'm getting desperate; wouldn't have thought this would start getting hard to find:
http://www.procustomhobbies.com/popwin.shtml?c0433_8301.gif?433~8301~LIFE LIKE PRODUCTS~35.98~18.00~HO~Dockside switcher B&O No.98
Found an IHC 2-10-2, up in Canada:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HO-2-10-2-SANTA-FE-WESTERN-MARYLAND-WM-DCC-READY_W0QQitemZ230467304596QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS%3AB%3ASRCH%3AUS%3A101
http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-IHC-Baltimore-Ohio-2-10-2-santa-fe-type-6185-NIB_W0QQitemZ390187909057QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS%3AB%3ASRCH%3AUS%3A101
http://toys.shop.ebay.com/IHC-/38274/i.html?LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&LH_PrefLoc=1&_LH_Time=1&_armrs=1&_from=R6&_ftrt=902&_ftrv=48&_ipg=200&_mPrRngCbx=1&_pcats=19128%2C479%2C220&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D0&_udhi=100000000&_udlo=1
That's all for now--good luck
A collection? No. I have two: one is the Varney (grampa's first engine). And a plastic, Life Like version (my first). I just want to get the Varney as close to perfect as possible.
However, my search for the valve gear has turned up the same websites as yours. Amazing how many brass, zamak, and plastic versions of this model were produced. The prototype was a bit obscure, to say the least. You'd think there'd be valve gears up the ying yang, just waiting for crazy modelers, who can't get enough tiny detail.
Here's the brass whistle, lest you think I'm taking a break:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2453.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2452.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2451.jpg)
Regards,
Jonathan
try this link
http://www.bessemerhobby.com/.sc/ms/cat/HO%20Bowser%20Parts--All/21 (http://www.bessemerhobby.com/.sc/ms/cat/HO%20Bowser%20Parts--All/21)
pawstrains.com had a lot of bowser parts out in washington state if you can find them. When I just looked at yardbird they had a set of valve gear (m754 ) for the 0-4-0 shifter, the one with the tender, would that fit?
I've got the IHC/MEhano version of the docksider which has a lot of detail to the valve gear.
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/bo98.jpg)
if you can find one i would suggest using it if your for detail.
PD,
Like the look of that website. At the office, I have a list of every Bowser part number associated with all the valve gear parts, less the rivets and screws. I will definitely try to order whatever parts they have available. It never hurts to ask. Thanks. I hadn't heard of this company.
B&ORRF,
Believe me, nothing would make me happier to bid on an IHC/AHM/Rivarossi 0-4-0 with valve gear. If I could get it to fit, that would be the end of my quest. The problem is the valve gear hangar. All the other Dockside makers put the motor in the rear of the shell. The drive gear was mounted on the rear axle. This left room to mount the gear hangar on the frame.
Varney mounted the motor in the middle, using the forward axle as the drive gear. I don't even know how Bowser or Varney managed to mount the valve gear hangar, but I really want to find out. Perhaps the hangar was stuck to the crosshead guides (uneducated guess).
I want to be wrong about this, but I don't think the gears are interchangeable.
Regards,
Jonathan
hmmmm, i would say try moving the drivers around shouldn't really hurt anything considering that the wheels should be the same just the diffrence being the gear.
Well, Jon,
I got curious, and I took a look at Bowser pages and the Bessemer pages, and it looks like Bessemer has what you will need:
Crosshead Left No. 1-8651 ........................$3.90
Crosshead Right No. 1-8652.........................3.90
Crosshead Link No. 1-9830 (2x$.67).........1.34
Combination Lever Left No. 1-70242..........1.32
Combination Lever Right No. 1-70243.......1.32
Valve Rod No. 1-9810 (2x$.67)....................1.34
Eccentric Rod No. 1-8860 (2x$.67).............1.34 (See Notes)
Radius Link No. 1-9850 (2x$1.25).........,,,,,,2.50 (See Notes)
Valve Gear Hanger Left No. 1-70244..........2.58
Valve Gear Hanger Right No. 1-70245........2.58
Transmission Rod No. 1-70201 (2x$.79)...1.58 (See Notes)
Eccentric Crank No. 1-9870 (2x$1.25).......2.50
Rivets (20) No. 1-67010..................................3.31
Spacer No. 1-874 (2x$.99)..............................1.98 (See Notes)
Notes: Certain parts in this list are misnamed by Bessemer/Bowser, at least in terms of prototype terminology I'm familiar with. What Bessemer calls an eccentric rod is actually a valve rod or radius rod, a radius link is also called a reverse link, and the transmission rod is the real eccentric rod. If I know anything about store employees, use Bessemer's terminology when ordering to avoid confusing them.
Also, note that Bessemer part number series is the same as Bowser with a 1- prefix, handy to know in a parts search.
Based on the photos I've seen, you will need to replace your crossheads; the replacements have an attachment for the crosshead link that your current ones lack. The spacers shown in the list may be optional; some spacers and screw combinations will not work with certain eccentric cranks, at least that was my experience with a Mantua 0-4-0 I added valve gear to. Hopefully, that's all you'll need.
Links to Bowser/Varney instruction sheets for reference:
http://www.bowser-trains.com/hoemrrs/dockside/Dockside_old.pdf
http://www.bowser-trains.com/hoemrrs/dockside/dockside.htm
http://www.bowser-trains.com/hoemrrs/dockside/Dockside.pdf
Double check everything before you order; I'm only human, I can make mistakes, too! There is a possibility you may need some extra screws for things like attaching the valve gear hangers to the frame, that's one thing I didn't check for. You may want to order some spares, notably the rivets, you always loose at least one of those (as you probably already know).
The instructions from Bowser suggest the valve gear can be adapted to your Life Like version. Alternately, all the other parts to build a whole new Dockside seem to be at Bessemer. Two of those engines alternated on Pratt Street until GE 44-tonners replaced them in 1950. . .
Have fun.
J3a-614,
Thank you. You saved me the research work I was going to do on Monday. Yes, I will need the new crossheads, as the present ones have no attachments for the crosshead link.
I will start working up the order when I get a little extra time today.
You know, I was starting to eye the stock brass and steel rods and tubing at the my LHS. I was actually thinking about attempting to make my own parts. That's how serious I am about finishing this project. That would be a disaster if I had to go that route.
The rivets will be a chore. I made my own rivet tool out of a track nail. I have some eye glass screws (0-90). I may get a kadee 0-90 tap set and see what happens.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Jonathan
p.s. Parts ordered. That cost more than all the other parts put together, including the motor. I must be crazy. Thanks PD and J3 for getting me back on track.
You're quite welcome, although your wife may disagree! :-)
I wonder if it isn't too late to add one or two of these to your order?
http://www.bessemerhobby.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/5173048/Bowser%20RIVET%20TOOL%20-%20H-36
Someone once said a hobby is something you go crazy over to keep from going crazy over life in general. And considering how rough things were in the 1930s and part of the 1940s, I wonder how much sanity was preserved by model builders of all types (including air and boat modelers) in that time as they improvised miniatures out of wood and paper? And they had to be careful of their money then, too.
Have fun.
Jon - at one time the Bowser Alligator crosshead came with attachment points on both sides. You would use the lower one and remove the upper one - they used the same crosshead on the K-11, PRR engines but not the dockside.
If you need screws or spacers and have just located a bunch of parts in my garage attic. The length of the spacers vary with the 0-80 screw used in the driver. I'll let you know what I have in an email.
As for the money spent, I am reminded of the line from the late Mets pitcher Tug MvGraw when he was asked what he would do with his World Series bonus. He said, "I'll spend some of it on women and partying. The rest I'll just squander." So you'd probably only squander the model railroad budget on food, gasoline or mortgage!
Squandering money on food, clothing, the car, the mortgage. . .gotta love some of the philosophy around here!
I won't say I'm tired of working, but I'm tired of working where I've been working for the last 29 years (it'll be 30 this November), and while I qualify for retirement, that's not the same as being able to afford it. For now, it means I have to keep making a living, which unfortunately interferes with living.
Classic blue-grass song, could be the lament of a pusher crew (particularly the fireman on a hand-fired engine) in West Virginia!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBfiQO-iuWk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtHJxCAwAk&feature=related
Have fun!
Well, whether it's squandering or maintaining sanity, any excuse will work for my little obsession. At my age, I still have young kids at home, so I'll be working until the end of time. That's OK. As long as I have my family and my trains, everything is pretty much alright with me.
Hopefully the valve gear parts will be on their way soon. In the meantime, I'm ready to begin my final push to finish this little treasure. I've got chains to hang, lights to redo, couplers to replace, a crew to install, and anything else I can think of until the really hard part begins. Wish me luck. The tools and parts await my guidance.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2454.jpg)
Will check in when I get stuck, or when this engine is ready for prime time. I'm guessing the former will hit before the latter.
Regards,
Jonathan
Woody, good to know you have some back up pieces in case I get stuck without an important ort of some sort.
Was looking at your tool and parts selection, and the one thing I didn't see was something to use as an anvil for driving rivets. I assume you have something; I've improvised with a steel car weight.
Good luck, take your time. An easy mistake to make is "layer" the valve gear parts incorrectly, which means parts may not line up right vertically. That's another reason to have spare rivets, in case you have to cut them apart to reallign valve gear parts.
Have fun. And I'll mention that there really was an editorial in Model Railroader in the 1950s that did suggest kit building would be as effective as visits to a psychiatrist!
If all else fails, use a big, very big hammer. Did you notice my new avatar?
I came across an unusual NH 0-6-0t switcher you might like.
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/nh-s2530vaa.jpg?t=1273505539)
Quote from: J3a-614 on May 09, 2010, 09:31:35 PM
Good luck, take your time. An easy mistake to make is "layer" the valve gear parts incorrectly, which means parts may not line up right vertically. That's another reason to have spare rivets, in case you have to cut them apart to reallign valve gear parts.
Have fun. And I'll mention that there really was an editorial in Model Railroader in the 1950s that did suggest kit building would be as effective as visits to a psychiatrist!
I should think that assembling valve gear might result in some people needing to visit a psychiatrist. ... ;)
The first HO engine I ever tackled was a Penn Line mikado. I read the instructions and riveted the valve gear without a hitch. Only later, after I joined a club, did I find out that the valve gear was the tricky bit! After that my hands always shook a little if I worked with valve gear.
If you mess with kit engines, you need spare parts - little screws strip, parts loosen up. You might wonder why anybody bothered with those things at all. The answer was simple - there was no Bachmann or similar company supplying excellently done rtr steamers. The fact that so many kit engines are still around a half century after they were manufactured is testimony to the quality that was built into these engines. Some were state of the art at the time.
One thing you might keep in mind. It might be possible to use 1mm valve gear screws instead of the rivets, assuming the holes in the parts are small enough to be tapped to 1mm. I believe you can still get 1mm valve gear screws (and the tap) from the new NWSL. They are different from regular screws in that they have an unthreaded shoulder under the head of the screw to clear the moving part. Otherwise, I do recommended the Rivetool.
Just one more decision has to be made.
A couple of months ago, I picked up a bottle of Blacken-it and started to experiment with it.
I took a spare drive rod (from the G5 project), pretreated it, and dunked it in the blacken-it for 24 hours. It looked nice and black until I rinsed it. The black flaked off and I was left with a gross looking greenish brown color. Not to be outdone, I dunked it a second time (24 hours again).
This time the finish did not rinse off. If the following picture is clear enough, you can now see it is a dark grey, with some sparkly flecks. It does not rub off. While not exactly prototypical, it is somewhat attractive. In fact, I have seen a finish like this on some models sold at train shows (the expensive kind).
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2455.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2456.jpg)
Need to make a 'go, no go' decision on whether or not to perform this step on the dockside's mechanism, either before or after I assemble it. I don't know what adverse affects this procedure will have on the small metal parts.
Hopefully the valve gear will arrive within the week.
Thoughts?
Regards,
Jonathan
p.s. I might still consider neolube, but I can always do that after the engine is done. The blacken-it really has to be applied before final assembly.
Go with the neolube only. Blacken it is a waste of money.
What you want to do may be determined by the prototype effect you are looking to simulate. Different railroads had different approaches to this, and even the same road would change things over time, usually with an eye to saving money (which very often meant things didnn't look as good over time, or at least some would argue that was the case).
Some roads polished the rods on their steamers, which resulted in a shiny, silver look to the rods. The B&O, the C&O, and the Southern did this with passenger power almost to the end (although it truthfully was neglected after diesels started to come), and this is the look C&O 614 has in the photos and videos you've seen. It's rather difficult to "scale down" visually for some reason; the bright plating commonly used is way too bright and shiny, and looks like a toy. I've used silver paint, but even it can look garrish. The builders' photos of N&W power I've seen also show polished steel rods. On many roads, they would not stay this way, either being painted or just covered with dirt and grease. To keep them in this condition required very regular work with wire brush and steel wool, and even then light surface rust would show up quite rapidly; I've seen photos of N&W Js that exhibited this.
The C&O used white or very light grey paint on the rods of freight and yard power; this would often show up on Pennsylvania locomotives as well. In the latter case, this was a coat of whitewash that had been used in metal fatigue testing, either by hammer or magnaflux (iron filings on a steel part with a magnetic current running, the filings would show the locations of cracks in the steel).
Most photos of B&O freight and yard engines I've seen taken after the early 1930s just show rods, tires and everthing painted black. It's spartan, but I have to say it still looked good on a freshly-shopped engine. Problem is, you can loose sight of a lot of detail this way. Many modelers like to avoid using pure black paint for just this reason. As for myself, I've never been able to blend a toned down black that looked right. Surface finish (flat, glossy, or semi-gloss) can make a big difference.
Can anybody else offer better advice?
Yeah, this is tough. After further study of the tested rod, I have to admit this is not the look I want. I have to agree with you, PD. I painted the Mike mechanism all black. It's okay, but a little lumpy. I dry-brushed the Bowser mechanism so it looks grayish and dirty. It's just okay, too.
The straight metal look is certainly the easiest, and cleanest looking, approach. If I keep them bare for now, I believe I can try the neolube approach later. Anyway, I can delay the decision until after assembly. I will definitely paint the valve hangar black.
Thanks for input, gentlemen.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathan, I provided a picture of a NH 0-6-0t to help with the placement of a speaker if you ever wanted to go with sound. Tanks like that were added for more fuel and funny shaped because they needed to see good both ways. It's only a idea, but in the eventuality you add sound, you'll need extra room.
P.D.,
I did notice that new avatar of yours. I've got to ask, what made a New Englander like you pick it?
I've got several avatars to choose from and I'd thought you'd like the B&O tank engine
Jonathon-
There are two brass docksiders on ebay right now.
--D
Quote from: pdlethbridge on May 09, 2010, 11:23:43 PM
If all else fails, use a big, very big hammer.
My grandpa's philosophy of last resort for fixing things. ;D
Some of the valve gear parts have started to arrive.
These are the parts from Bowser (what they had). The links and rods from Bessemerhobby have not shown up, yet. Hope they're legit.
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S. Rather than pick a color, I'm polishing the hardware with 600 grit sandpaper. Shiny is good...
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2611.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2610.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2609.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2608.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2607.jpg)
If you would like a darker finish, use neolube
http://www.micromark.com/NEOLUBE-2-FL-OZ,8383.html (http://www.micromark.com/NEOLUBE-2-FL-OZ,8383.html)
Jon - I see that you've cranked up the old electron microscope again. Just the addition of the crosshead guide hanger makes a big difference.
So did the PRR decals for the G-5 arrive from Lower Slobovia yet?
Yes, those eye glass screws are straight pins with threads. Need a bigger magnifying glass.
No decals, yet. It seems some things are only made once a year. Timing is everything...
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S. Don't know how this happened, but I have noticed I am forever waiting on parts to complete my projects. I have too many irons in the fire. :)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1798.jpg)
P.P.S Don't want to move this thread up the chain for now. However, the last of the valve gear parts have arrived.
I am in the throws of assembly and adjustments. There are binds and troubles all over the place. The main rods' holes are too small for the spacers. The cross head guides do not want to stay in the holes in the steam chest. I can't epoxy the guides or I won't be able to unassemble when necessary. The left crosshead needs filing to slide smoothly on the guides. I am glad I got 00-90 nuts to hold the eye glass screws (and some loctite). Those little screws want to loosen at every opportunity.
To say the parts are small is an understatement. I can barely focus on the parts, let alone work with them. I feel I am one wrong turn from having the whole thing fall apart on me.
At least the riveting went well.
Hopefully the frustrating part won't last forever. Wish me luck.
J
Jon: Wow! I cannot believe that the locomotive in the picture is the same engine I got off Ebay.
Getting parts has always been a problem especially when the vendor is a small operation and the part is something really odd ball or rare.
In the real world my neighbor's Mazda had a door chime problem and it took the dealer 6 weeks to get the new part.
Right Side assembled:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2800.jpg)
It was not fun. Right now I'm keeping my eyes on the prize (finishing).
Questions:
Will running the mechanism on the bench loosen it up? I believe I have found and removed the binds. However, it turns a little tight. Don't know how else to describe it. I'm thinking I can put the frame on a stand, hook up some leads, and just let it run until it gets loose, thereby burnishing and wearing the metal parts just a bit. Am I crazy? Seems like a good idea at the moment.
Also, is the crosshead link suppose to be tightened in order to keep it parallel to the ground? I really wish this stuff came with instructions. An old picture just doesn't cut it.
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S. We're getting close to the end.
It's looking good. . .
The stiffness you mention might be coming from one or both of two sources.
One would be that you might have made the rivets too tight. There is something of an art to valve gear rivets, getting them just right, but it can take some practice, and it wouldn't surprise me that not all rivets and valve gear parts are created equal. Check the swing of your riveted connections with your fingers; if anything feels tight to the touch, you can either cut and replace the rivet, or you might be able to very carefully stretch it by prying with a thin screwdriver. I don't have to tell you it's delicate, but it's doable.
The other possible source of tightness could be the crossheads and possibly the piston rods. Your crosshead guides are now held in true parallel by the valve gear hangers as opposed to opening up a little at the rear, so the crossheads may be working harder against the guides; that you are now using cast crossheads could also be a factor, with the slots that run on the guides being slightly undersized. Check this with finger motion again, with the cylinder block out of the engine; some very careful and slow file work can cure this. Just take your time, be patient, and test your fit fairly often. Also, see if the piston rod is tight where it goes into the cylinder block; the rod may be a bit oversized, or you may have a dab of paint in the hole that's causing interference. Some gentle drilling to slightly enlarge the hole may do the trick.
Your angles for the crosshead link look fine to me. This part does move, and you can see this if you look up the "Pacific 231" video clip, in particular as the engine gets under way at about 03:10 or so.
Oh, and I like how you managed to fabricate those tiny hooks and brackets for hanging the towing chains on the cylinders. Neat!
First comment fantastic job on installing all of the linkage.
I think JA-614 is right on the money about gently checking where it is tight as you rotate around, try and identify where it is tight.
If you choose to run it in you might want to do it slowly, would not want something to come loose and tear it up.
Your work is inspiring it is making a slightly old timer like me want to pull out some of those older mantua locos and see if they can be brought back to life!
Keep up the great work.
A trick the old timers used when attaching rivets was to put a piece of paper on the rivet between the pieces to be attached to act as a gauge to tell when you are tight. pulling the paper out gave the right distance and looseness.
jonathon -
Looking good!
Trying to run the valve gear in is worth a try. Keep the speeds moderate and change both speed and direction from time to time. You could also try a teensie bit of graphite on the articulating rivets and the crosshead guides.
-- D
.
or neolube.
First, thanks-a-million for the kind comments and helpful advice!
I have gone through and checked all the rivets. They seem loose enough. I have the right and left side valve gears connected at the moment. Actually, the valve gear portion seems to be working quite smoothly.
I am down to one mysterious bind. I find that when I loosen the steam chest (held on by nut and bolt for now), I can temporarily relieve the bind. Tighten the bolt, and the bind is back. There is a possibility that the piston rods are too long and bumping the inside of the steam chest. I initially clipped about a 1/16" piece off the piston rods. It may not have been enough. Much as I hate to dismantle the whole thing again, I may have to. Trial and error will prevail, hopefully before I strip a screw or crank pin hole.
The hooks for the tow chain are lift rings for diesels. I gently pried them open to get a hook shape. Then I drilled #79 holes and epoxied them in place. Will paint them (and touch up everything else) when the mechanism is finally working properly. I have some blackened copper chain to hang as well.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S. After further manipulation, bind is definitely on the left. 90% sure is the piston rod bumping the inside of the steam chest. Must disassemble the mechanism and clip a little more off the rod. The engine building bug is definitely being exercised from my system. :) J
Quote from: jonathan on June 16, 2010, 07:05:54 AM
The engine building bug is definitely being exercised from my system. :) J
But you will have a real gem of an engine when the project is completed. :)
Jon - with what you have learned, the next steamer will be a breeze (ha ha.) You think the optical screws are tiny? Try some of those tiny metric jobs they use on the brass engines - they are really miniscule.
I suggest you run the engine on the bench upside down. That often helps in spotting binds. By adding the valve gear hanger you have taken some slop out of the mechanism and that will result in binds.
You need to be given an award for perserverance - of course you vision may never be the same.
Testing the mechanism . Drilled a hole in my homemade paint stand. Ran the assembly bolt down through the steam chest and into the hole.
It would be too long a list to describe all the manipulations I went through to free up all the binds. The biggest one was indeed the left piston rod being too long. Clipped another 1/16" off the rod. Done.
I made a video showing how smoothly it was running, but the camera wouldn't focus on the frame (too blurry). Here's a pic, running at about 25%. Turned it up to 40% and cleaned the brass wheels. Total run time was 30 minutes for the first test.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2802.jpg)
The hard part is finally done. Phew!
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S. Per Woody's tip, I held the frame upside down while it was running, then put it back on the stand. ;D Why do these things always run better upsidedown and in reverse, but never running forward (normal running)? ???
P.P.S. I put loctite on all the little screws so the thing wouldn't come apart on me during operations.
Um-m-m-m, Johnathon - did you test run the loco AFTER the Loctite? That stuff has a way of migrating to places you didn't want it. It could freeze up some of those recently-limbered joints.
No worries.
I applied the loctite (with a straight pin), and then ran the mechanism. All is still limber. :)
Thanks for checking me, though.
Regards,
Jonathan
I'm going to put this loco away for a few weeks, while I look for the last few detail parts I need, like a 5.5mm (7/32") headlight lens, among other things.
Before I park her in the garage (literally), here I am out for a spin around the block.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2805.jpg)
Whatcha think, PD, should I go for some neolube while I'm at at? ;D ;D
Regards,
Jonathan
P.S.
Just kidding. I don't have my license.... this guy drove:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2808.jpg)
Great job, Jonathon! Yes, I'd vote for a touch of Neolube to give the rods a more even finish.
lookin' good , go with the neolube, it will look more like a real loco.
You're making me want to model Pratt Street, with lots of ancient buildings, ships, docks, street trackage, trolleys--would make a great switching layout with two to four Docksides and a slew of freight cars. At the same time, I look at the close clearance of that crosshead link to the surface of your turnable (or a street surface)--wow!
A similar prototype situation at speed on a railroad in New Zealand (3'6" gauge):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BStS7EUomc
Remember the comments about the NYC box in the night photo (relinked below)?
http://www.trains.com/ctr/objects/images/0-4-0_3.jpg
Now look what's coming out:
http://www.broadway-limited.com/nycsteelboxcars.aspx
Wonder how many they will sell?
She looks good, and I hope you get to work on some more engines!
To bad Bowser is out of the game!
We went through this voting stuff on the valve gear, too. :) I have a feeling most folks are gonna lean towards the neolube as well. Left shiny, it looks pretty good going down the track, but I'm sure I'll grow tired of the polished brass, or whatever it is.
Perhaps someone out there would like to share a photo of a steamer that has an application of neolube... something done by a regular modeler, not the company's photo. I've spent more than a few dollars already on chemicals, some work well, some not so well. Pics please?
Actually, I'd love to get the rods an iron gray color like on my Kanawha (Berk). That's the most attractive shade I've seen so far on any model steamer. The Connies have a nice shade, too, just a bit dark.
--------
J3, I had no idea how low the crosshead link was until I parked it on the turntable. It clears the table, as long as you hold your breath and think light thoughts. Fortunately I don't do street running, so I don't have to sweat until I have to turn her around.
If I ever build another engine, it will have to be pretty darn special to motivate me. I've done three. I've discovered, for me, no matter how hard I try, the project never turns out like I imagined it, aaaaand, it's never going to look or run as well as a factory built model. I am proud of my heavy metal babies, though. There's a special feeling when you turn up the throttle on your homemade locomotives and the lights come on and the wheels actually turn. Cool. 8)
Saw the NYC box cars. Wouldn't it be great to model the little scene in that famous photo? Wouldn't take much space on any layout. Wouldn't even recognize the scene until you rolled in the main players. Hmmm, just put that nugget in my head.
Oh, Bowser's not completely out of the kit game. I was pleasantly surprised to find out about 90% of all the parts they ever made, are still carried in their warehouse. Nobody that works there know anything about the parts, so don't call (trust me), but if you can figure out their on line shopping system, chances are the part can still be had. For instance, the dockside valve gear kit is not listed, but all the individual parts are still available... for a substantially higher price mind you. But it's just business.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon: I wouldn't be surprised if somebody else buys up the Bowser parts inventory. I'm sure that Bowser would probably sell the tooling.
Compare your latest Dockside pix with those you took of the original engine - quite a difference! You've worked wonders on all three engines and you can say that you have three one of a kind engines.
Park the Dockside and refocus your eyes!
jon -
Your Doxie looks better with each new photo. You must have a staggering amount of time in it. I think the only improvement left to make is the neolube. Do remember that it's conductive. BTW, does your loco rear up a little or is that an artifact of the photo?
-- D
loco looks level in person. Don't know much about camera angles, though. I just lean my pinkies or elbows on the layout to hold it steady. :)
Regards,
Jonathan
Cameras can be unforgiving eyes, revealing things like the rear end of a Dockside that sags because the spring rigging has gotten "ornery" and needs resetting. That's how Alfred Bruce, who was Alco's chief locomotive designer in steam days, described this condition in his classic book, "The Steam Locomotive in America".
A look at other photos reveals that John Allen (of Gorre & Daphetid fame) cheated a little on his Dockside; his engine had eccentric crank, rods, and reverse link, but nothing else! Don't know if he had issues with the close ground clearance, or if the valve gear kit wasn't available, but essentially everything forward of what looked like a homemade valve gear hanger and reverse link was missing.
I see your avatar features a B&O GE 44-tonner. You might be interested to know that a couple of such engines were the replacements for the Docksides.
Your comment about having trouble getting your metal engines to run well, and that they don't quite run as well as factory jobs, is a reflection of how far the factory jobs have come with the introduction of Bachmann's 2-8-0. I can well remember when the only way to get a steam model to run its best was to either build a kit and tune it up as you have done, or to take a (cough) "ready-to-run" engine apart to tune it so it really did run better. This applied even to pricey brass engines. Of course, in doing so you usually wanted to repaint the thing, as paint finishes weren't very good either back then; in fact, most were pretty awful. Might as well start with a kit and tune it and paint it without the disassembly and strip jobs, and take the time to detail it, too. And by the way, if your Mikado's video is any indication, I'd say you've done a very good job of tuning. Wonder if we'll get to see a Dockside in action. . .
All this changed after Bachmann's 2-8-0 came out, how long ago now? . . .downside of modern paint and lettering is that Champ decals is about out of business. . .I still need decals for a couple hundred hopper cars. . .wonder if there is an alternative. . .
Glad you love your metal engines, and I'm especially glad you have your grand-dad's Dockside among them. That makes the engine very special, indeed.
I would say that if you are unsure of the neolube results, try some on a cars trucks to see if you like it. I ordered mine but have been unable to get to east rochester to pick it up.
Jonathan -
There's a B&O Docksider on ebay right now. Its crosshead just about hits the ground, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-scale-GEM-Brass-B-O-0-4-0-DOCKSIDE-DOCKSIDER-/280524099692?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item41508a106c
-- D
The owner wants $200 - notice that the engineer's side crosshead guide is not where it should be. If I remember my Gem engines, they often sounded like coffee grinders. The detail is nice but in three or four more years Jon will have his dockside detailed to perfection.
I owned a good number of brass HO locomotives and many of them required a lot of work to get them to run properly. I had a PFM USRA mikado that ran better in reverse than forward. After a complete disassembly to paint the engine I added a washer into the drive train and fixed the problem. People do not realize that a lot of the older brass imports - notably Alco diesels, later Westside models and Empire Midland all needed a great deal of tinkering. THe first models from Korea often came apart due to cold solder joints and poor fit. Bachmann steamers are like cadillacs compared to some of the brass imports.
Glad you brought it up.
I often look at the brass offerings on ebay and other importers. I have often drooled over the wonderful detail. At first glance, I wanted to bid on some of these little steamers right away. Have you seen the one with a tender for $375? It's always there... looking at me.
At second glance, I see a lot of open frame motors and plastic main gears. I also see no light bulbs. Well, I never shied away from age. They would require some work.
The other thing that makes me nervous... these babies have sat around for years unpainted. I wonder how hard it would be to get the brass clean enough to paint? If you could get it clean, would I trust myself to paint something I just spent a good chunk of change on? I threw caution to the wind on the Varney. There are some paint errors, but it still looks pretty in person (the camera can focus in closer than I can). I've spent a total of $110 on my engine so far. How much would I have to spend to get one of the brass engines in operational condition?
Still, the detail is wonderful. Don't know if I'll get brave enough to tackle an unpainted brass import.
Just read somewhere that Zamack type metals can disintegrate over time. Now that would cause a grown man to cry like a baby.
Regards,
Jonathan
There was no magic about what brass engines might be good runners, though there was some degree of track record. In general, most PFM United models ran pretty well to very well. I once had a Ma & Pa modern
2-8-0 that ran great right out of the box. Thenshodo models tended to run OK, but were noisy. Gem models generally looked good, but were a real crap-shoot as to whether they would run or not. Akane models generally ran well, but tended to lack some in details. Alco models, especially diesels, were notoriously poor runners. NWSL were generally decent to good runners. Westside & Key - generally decent. Balboa - not quite up to par in many cases.
As far as the old metal kits, the early Penn Line models were generally the better of the lot. The original Mantuas with the gearbox weren't bad. Same with the old Varneys, especially the "super" model kits. Roundhouse, not too bad. Old original Bowsers, many took some tweaking during assembly.
Woody -
You are so right. I think of brass locos, at least the earlier ones, as British sport cars with Lucas electrics. They look super and really grab attention but they do enjoy time in the shop. That hasn't stopped me from buying brass steamers -- they are sooooo pretty and sometimes the only way to get a specific prototype -- or cars either, I guess. I have an old 12 cylinder Jaguar E-type roadster that is truly beautiful but I wouldn't want to count on it to get me to a critical job interview or the hospital or anything like that. It's to enjoy when time isn't an issue. With the trains it's different; I do expect them to run when I tell them to. Mostly they do what I ask.
-- D
Old joke from a car enthusiast:
Q: Why do the British like warm beer?
A: Because they have Lucas refrigerators.
Jag story: An essential piece of aftermarket equipment that should be in every Jaguar is a large rock. You use the rock to pound on the electric fuel pump in case the car will not start.
I'm afraid I've never been quite rich enough to own either Jaguars or brass engines, but might Woody, Donaldon, or EBT have some advice on purchasing and working with such exotic locomotives? About all I can say is to ask for John Glaab at Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, Md.!
There was no secret to working on brass engines. Often they had inferior motors. One friend used to disassemble the gearbox and use jeweller's rouge to lap the gears. Sometimes the driver springs were too stiff
I spent hours on my PFM mike - my first brass engine. I finally found that the motor had a bit too much play so the thing ran better in reverse. I added a washer to the armature and that solved the problem.
As for Jaguars, a friend had an XKE - 12 cylinders. I forgot how many carbs it had but I recall that it took 13 quarts of oil. The car was in great shape because it was always in the garage being fixed. Lucas gauges were notoriously bad but they were in horrible cars. Of all the British independent car makers, I think Vauxhall is the only one left.
The Jag, by the way, was a rocket but so was the Austin Healey 104 that my friend had before the Jag. British cars all needed one crucial gauge - a temperature gauge, because they were notorious overheaters.
Where I live is home to a Rover dealer. I see lots of Range Rovers and I wonder just how much improved they are. I think the owners should have their heads examined.
Probably the biggest improvement in brass engines is when they went to can motors. The old open frame motors were power hogs and generally did not run smoothly, especially at low speeds when armature cogging tended to set in. Quality in general got better in the '90's and '00's. I have two Hallmark On3 EBT Mikes that look great and ran better right out of the box. They were built by Samhongsa in Korea.
Some of the early stuff from Korea, like Empire Midland and Hallmark, were real dogs. I had an EM SRy mountain. Every time I ran the engine something fell off.
I also had a brass USRA switcher - I think it was done by Alco. The thing had a frame that wasn't square. I took it apart, built a jig and reassembled the frame with a torch. I used different springs with the drivers and put in a can motor. It became an excellent running engine. Taking a brass engine down to the frame is not for the faint hearted. It was a learning experience. Of Course those were the days before plastic engines.
J3a -
Do you know why the Brits never had a space program? It's because Lucas got the ignition contract. Actually, I shouldn't complain. Mine always starts, but then the Lucas stuff was replaced by a high discharge electronic ignition and I put in 12 platinum plugs. And Woody, it has four two-barrel strombergs.
These things aren't all that expensive and they hold their value better than a new car. My E-type (aka XKE) is worth nearly twice what I paid for it. You can't say that about our Toyota or Hyundai.
-- D
Well, I've enjoyed our little diversion. My MX-5 is a little embarrassed, though.
I ordered the Neolube today. Need a tip. I applied tiny drops of conductalube to the joints of the mechanism while breaking it in. I believe the metal parts need to be oil free to get the neolube to stick.
Can I use rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip to release the oil? I don't want to disassemble everything to wash it. I hate to risk stripping threads now that everything is running well.
Side note. I notice PD's posts now say "Guest" under his name. You haven't left us, have you, PD? (hope not)
Regards,
Jonathan
jonathan -
Alcohol should remove the oil. You might want to go over it twice just to be sure. Why not run a test? Get a piece of metal (brass, nickel, nickel silver, copper, but probably nickel silver), put some Conductalube on it, wipe it in and off, use the alcohol and then apply the neolube. The test will save you from starting the neolube application only to have a mess to clean up.
-- D
Brilliant!
Sometimes, a nudge into common sense gets me on track again.
Many thanks, -- D. Will run a test as you suggest.
Regards,
Jonathan
to Jon: try using Jack Daniels instead of plain alcohol. That way, if it doesn't work on the rods, you can put the JD to another use.
To D: Glad your XKE starts all the time. British cars are like boats: the best two days are when you get the car and the day you sell the car!
Woody -
I see you know your British cars. And believe me, I know how lucky I am that the Jag starts all of the time. Few do. My brother, who claims no envy vis-a-vis the Jag, tells me every time the car comes up in conversation about his fraternity brother's E-type which wouldn't start below 60o even when it was brand new. Mine starts at least in the 10os. I've never tried it below that.
-- D
FWIW, my '93 Miata, which is about to turn 250K, has been remarkably reliable in the 9 years I've owned it. I've had to put one cluth in it, and it uses about a quart of oil every 500 miles or so, but it is still a fun toy. A little body cancer has begun, but it'll probably go for another 30K or so.
I had a '92 Miata. When I got married, I had to get rid of it for a more practical vehicle. Besides, it's a chick magnet. :D How do you think I was able to get her to notice me?
Now that I'm older (and thicker) and retired from my first career, I was given permission to get an '06 (red with all the bangs and whistles). Makes a great commuter car for my second career.
J
im number 3000 yay
One of the neat things about railroading, prototype and model, is that you almost always are learning something new--in this case, some comments about the Docksides that appeared in Railway Preservation News with other comments on Western Maryland 202, a 4-6-2 converted to oil firing:
And finally, some pics of the rarely photographed engine taken June 24th, 2010:
Good timing on the way back from the Potomac - a nice cloudy yet blue sky day and a small heaping of Photoshop to bring out some of the details of this remarkable engine sitting under it's protective canopy.
What a beauty!
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=329421
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=329405
/Mitch
Why did the Western Maryland have an oil burner?
That was due to an anti-smoke ordinance in Baltimore; this conversion was for 4 of the WM's 4-6-2s. Several Pennsylvania engines also had similar conversions, including at least one 0-6-0 and a 4-4-2, E-6s No. 13 (which on another division was well liked for its trouble-free operation, despite that number). And B&O's famous Dockside or "Little Joe" 0-4-0T's that worked Pratt Street were also oil-fired.
Quote:
And B&O's famous Dockside or "Little Joe" 0-4-0T's that worked Pratt Street were also oil-fired.
Those Pratt Street engines took advantage of the oil firing when switching inside buildings, which was common on that job. One of the former firemen on the job told me they would just turn the oil burner off when going inside, operate for a while as a "fireless cooker", then fire it back up when they got outside again to avoid smoking the place up.
The original thread, just in case there is interest:
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29099&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Enjoy.
Many railroad used oil for the passenger locos.
Eastern roads that had oil-fired locos usually did it to meet smoke abatement laws. Railroads in the far West used oil routinely since it was abundant and cheaper that having to ship in coal from elsewhere. Typically, the roads uses what was often referred to as "Bunker C" oil. This stuff was just about one step above asphalt and needed to be warm to flow properly. No problem in a hot southern California summer, but up on Donner Pass in the winter was a different story. Most road locos had heater coils in the tender, normally tied to steam from the loco to keep the oil liquid in cold weather.
Hello, Jon,
Saw your comments about the crosshead links causing shorting problems at turnouts on the Bachmann saddletank thread, and did some thinking about possible remedies you might be able to use. Keep in mind, however, that I don't own one of these things, so I'm having to guess at actions to take; you may find they are no good for you. At the same time, an engine that gives problems like this isn't much good either, so here goes:
My first thought would be to raise the cylinder block up with a spacer of some sort, preferably one that could also double as an insulator. If the interference is as little as you have suggested it might be, a couple of sheets of paper might be enough, possibly even one sheet if it's heavy enought (like from a shopping bag). Keep in mind you want to raise your valve gear hangers, too, to keep the crosshead guides level.
A potential problem with this approach is that you will make that rearward slope of the superstructure more pronounced than it already is. (By the way, this shows up in your earliest photos of the unaltered engine, so it's been there a while.) Two possible ways to correct for this could include filing down the cylinder saddle, and shimming up the rear end.
Filing down the cylinder saddle is a slow and rather tedious job, which I found out on that Bowser K-11 I worked on, but it could get you a better fit between the boiler and the saddle as part of the result. This is because a casting like that of the cylinder saddle has what is called a draft angle in it to allow the part to be withdrawn fron the mold. In the case of the cylinder saddle, this angle may be in the middle of the saddle, running across the engine from one side to the other. You can test for this by laying a straight and stiff piece of something, like a good hard ruler or a file along the line of the boiler (i.e., at right angles to the cylinder block), and seeing if it rocks just a little bit. If it does, that's your draft angle. Removing this will let the boiler (smokebox, actually) nestle down into the saddle along most of its length instead of riding on the crest of the draft angle; this also lowers the front of the superstructure very slightly, and may even be enough to level it.
The other option, shimming up the rear, is a bit more problematical because I don't have a Dockside in front of me to look at, and I've never worked on one. If it's like a Mantua Booster (0-4-0T) I own, the superstructure fits into the rear footboards (which are part of the main frame) with a couple of little tabs going into slots. If this is the case, there is likely some slack in the tab-slot connections that can be shimmed to raise the rear end up a little. Alternately, you could also do this and some very, very judicious and careful filing in the slots or even on the tabs, to get the movement upward you want; I don't have to tell you to be careful with this, as there isn't much you can take off in this area. Of course, if your engine isn't like this, you're on your own, but maybe something here may be of help.
Good luck, and keep us posted. You've got me wanting to pick up one of those little buggers some day, the reason being that it used to be about every model railroader had one back when, including John Allen!
I am an idiot, I should have looked at the first photos of the disassembled engine way back on page 1. It looks like all you have to do at the rear, if you have to do anything, is a little shimming on the frame; looks like the rear is held with a screw, with simplifies this sort of thing considerably.
Actually the rear is held by a 'tongue and groove' type operation. There is only one bolt, up front, that holds everything together at once. Shimming up the rear wouldn't accomplish much.
I had to get a little creative with shims (business card stock) to get the angle just right on the crosshead guides.
I think I can file about 1/64" of material off the bottom of the crosshead links (slowly and carefully). After that, I can apply a thin coat of 5-minute epoxy to the bottom of the crosshead link, screw and crosshead piece. The epoxy should act as an insulator. Not looking forward to trying this, but I have to try something to finish this thing and get it roadworthy.
Thanks for thinking of me J3a. Every suggestion gets me thinking in a direction I hadn't considered. That has solved more problems than I can remember.
Regards,
Jonathan
J3a,
I keep relooking at it from all angles, trying to see this raised front. A few of you have seen it. My power of observation must be amiss. I get the filing of the steam chest part.
I will do some careful observation and measuring when I open her up. I have to redo the lights, anyway. I burnt 'em out on my last run test. Thought I was being clever with 1.5v bulbs, in series, and a resistor. Now I'm a dolt. Back to the drawing board.
Thanks,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2833.jpg)`
Just saw the photo with what I guess is the Neo Lube applied to the rods--looks great! I'll have to pick some up myself.
The angle business mainly shows up in your broadside photos of the engine on the turntable. The camera was shooting from a low angle, and these photos are the only ones the slope shows up in, and even then it's not terribly noticable. If you don't see it with your own eyes, and it truthfully doesn't show up unless you are at that broadside angle and in a photo (cameras are very unforgiving), then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Real engines can develop a sag, due to weak springs or spring rigging that is just "ornery:" fixing the latter involves jacking up the whole engine and a lot of work on the springs and equalizers to get the engine level again.
Again, it is amazing what the Neo Lube and chains do for the appearance. Now, hopefully that clearance problem with the crosshead link will work out. . .
Thanks, J3a-614.
I redid the lights this morning. While I had it apart, I filed just a touch of material off the cradle. I also filed about 1/64" off the bottom of the crosshead link. All that's left is to install the rear coupler, do a little cleaning, and touch up a few areas here and there.
I will be preparing to take the final photos soon. Give me a few days to get it all together, and I should be ready for the final post.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathan-
I have to pronounce this thread a treasure. Do you realize it has (now) 219 comments and over 3200 viewings? That's amazing. The next closest on the HO front page has only 36, and it's another of yours about saddle tankers. I think this is wonderful. Here's a large segment of the modeling community which your project has brought together for several months to kibbutz a humble docksider. I hope you realize what a positive contribution your little lokie and this thread have made to our hobby. Thank you.
-- D
Your welcome, D. And thanks to you, and our many forum friends, for making this dream a reality. I wonder how many of us started with a lowly locomotive, such as this, that led to a lifelong love affair with trains.
As they say, "Anticipate!" The unveiling is coming soon...
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN2834.jpg)
It was not unusual to see a loco with a tilted cab or a tender that that was sloped to the front. One of the EBT locos comes to mind with the bent tender, it' was been fixed.
The Vogel Locomotive Works has finally released the Dockside Switcher.
Catharsis.
From the bottom of my heart, many thanks to PD(come back soon), Woody, Jim B., Tim, J3a-614, B&ORRF, Doneldon, Ray, Jerryl, lexon, ebtnut, ebtbob, tac, Matt, RAM, pipefitter, JBJ and NMWTRR. Your input and guidance has made this project really fun and rewarding. If I missed anyone, I am deeply sorry.
First the business:
The tow chains are temporary (have a more prototypical size on order). Also getting a brass B&O herald for the nose.
The headlight lens is the original jewel. I sanded off the backing, turned it backwards, and attached with white glue. It looks good in person. It didn't photograph well--too reflective I guess. The other lenses are MV products. Lower switcher headlight was a bear to add (clearance).
The lights work, two in front, one in the rear. They are a little dim, but after two previous attempts at bright lights, I gave up and installed 12v GOR bulbs (parallel).
Discovered the drive wheels are not spaced to NMRA standards. They are a little narrow. I had to file out a little material off the rail guides on some of my turnouts. The Varney now passes through OK, and the modification doesn't seem to affect the other rolling stock (fingers crossed). Li'l Joe can only operate on my upper loop which is all code 100 rail.
She runs pretty good for 63 years old, a little wobbly, but I ain't complainin'.
Should I weather it? I still really like Earl Smallshaw's Doxie. And yes, it's a Varney. I blew up the photo. The builder's plate shows a "V" up close. Hard to tell. The shadows made it look like a "T".
Here are photos of the completed work.
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2835.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2836.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2837.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2839.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2840.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2841.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2842.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2843.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2844.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2845.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2846.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2847.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2848.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2850.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2851.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN2852.jpg)
P.S. I was going to recreate the original 1947 ad for the Li'l Joe, but Chesterfield cigarrettes are a little rare. Just wouldn't have any class sitting on top a pack of Marlboros or Kools. :)
Congratulations! The engine looks great, she sits level now, and from what you said the clearance problem has been worked out.
You have a little jewel, an an hierloom from your grandad, and now from you (even if an insurance company wouldn't recognise it as such); we here know better. . .
Again, congratulations. . .I can say no more. . .
Johnathon: You should be proud of your perseverance and the final results. She looks real good. Adding that brass dome plate to the front will be a nice finishing touch. Gives us all some hope and inspiration that craftsmanship in this hobby ain't dead just yet. :D
Jon- I'm disappointed with the unveiling pix. Where is the Marine Band? And a podium for some long winded politician?
Seriously, the strand endured so long because it was about something of interest. I hope all the newbies who read these inane scribblings will take up the challenge and revitalize a flea market or garage sale junker.
So what's your next project? Oh yeah, the anchor chain hanging off the cylinders is just dreadful.
;D Well, I am a sailor after all. I had to get some anchor chain in there somewhere. ;D
Thanks for the kind words. It was fun, sometimes frustrating, but mostly fun. I hope the club guys like it when I do a little show and tell next week.
Next project? It's not in the budget right now, but I would like to tackle a brass locomotive at some point. Brasstrains has an NWSL 2-6-2T that's unpainted, needs lights, probably a motor, and couplers. It says, "buy me," whenever I see it. I like the small locos for some reason.
I can't wait too long. My eyesight and dexterity aren't improving with age.
Regards,
Jonathan
NWSL imported nicely done brass models. As long as it hasn't been tinkered with you'd be making a good investment.
It's hard to believe that the Vareny engine is the same one you first pictured. I like the neolube on the running gear. I know that you are going to replace the chain with something more in scale. It's little things that add so much to a model.
Let us know when you get the 2-6-2t.
I once had one of those NWSL 2-6-2T's. Nicely done model - clean soldering. It ran quietly but was a bit "tight". It probably just needed to get in some more run-in than I gave it. IIRC, it had an open-frame motor. I'm sure a new can motor would be a good thing.
Quote from: jonathan on July 09, 2010, 06:49:17 AM
I like the small locos for some reason.
I do, too. In my case it's because I don't have much space to play with. I think small locomotives look less out of place on a small layout. :)
I haven't seen the brass engine you are speaking of, but I know what it would probably look like; this was a fairly common stock type from Baldwin for logging service. I suggested this would be an engine that Bachmann should make in the "Smaller Locomotive Suggestions" thread for just this reason, and it could even be based on the existing 0-6-0T mechanism, which also has 44" drivers (a common rod logging size).
If you do get to spring for one of these 2-6-2Ts, save a few pennies to also pick up some Kadee log cars to go with it; they were fairly common out west where your proposed 2-6-2T actually ran, they are nice cars (I have several), and they are old school (been in production since at least the late 1950s-early 1960s).
http://www.kadee.com/index.shtml
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/allplc.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/HO-Scale%20Log%20Car.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page101.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page102.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page103.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page104.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page107.htm
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/pagell.htm
Enjoy.
If I recall correctly, NWSL brought in West Coast engines which makes sense given the name of the company. The 2-6-2 may indeed be a logger. How is Jonathan going to fit in a logging operation in downtown Baltimore?
Well, if you want to be picky about it, technically, no.
On the other hand, who is to say one of these engines wouldn't wind up in the inventory of a railroad equipment dealer like Southern Iron or Willamette Iron Works (the latter later got into the geared engine business with a very much improved version of a Shay after the patents expired), and find itself converted to coal firing for work at a mine?
My own approach would be to build a second, smaller logging layout, though, along the lines of what is on this site (which I've posted before); it would be a change of pace, so to speak:
http://carendt.com/
Hmmm, Jonathan's comments about modeling the Baltimore News Building as a place to switch boxcars, notably a New York Central Specification 486 type, would make a nice micro layout to add to Carl's site. . .would look forward to a new thread with Jon. . .
Jon will have fun no matter which way he goes!
Go to it, Jon!
Truthfully, I'm not married to the 2-6-2T engine idea. I do like the overall size, and with no tender, there's one less piece of gear that demands detailing and paint.
Anyway, it's going to take some time to save up for my next locomotive, so I can look at photos and flip coins until decision time. Pretty sure I won't be shopping for it on ebay. Most of the ebay brass looks like it's had a hard life. And most folks start the bidding too high. They all think they have a real collectors item.
I would, however, overpay for a Penn Line Crusader. That would be a really neat project.
A brass B&O engine would be great. However, all the brass ones seem to be the huge engines with lots of wheels, long tenders, and unrunnable on anything but 30" radius track.
As you can read, I'm still pondering.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathan-
Keep looking. There are quite a few 2-8-2s and the occasional 4-6-0 on ebay.
-- D