While we have been having fun with a little old Varney Dockside, the prototype was actually a special-purpose engine used in only one city in its original form. At the same time, the Baltimore & Ohio is a popular prototype, and was once one of the 4 or 5 most notable railroads in the country (and was, with the Reading, the Pennsylvania, and an unnamed Short Line, one of the four roads on the Monopoly game board).
There have been models available of some B&O inspired protoypes, but most either were freelanced to a certain extent for mass market purposes (Mantua/Tyco's 4-6-2 is based on the P-7c), or were later known for mechanism problems and/or ancient tooling (Rivarossi's S-1 2-10-2, Athearn's USRA 2-8-2 and 4-6-2). This suggests the question--what would be some appropriate engines for somebody to make that might sell well enough to justify the tooling costs? These are my ideas--what would be yours?
2-8-2--Q-3 and Q-4, both with either 63 or 64 inch drivers and similar general overall proportions. The Q-3 is the USRA light 2-8-2, of which B&O had 100, including the first one, No. 4500, now in the B&O Museum at Baltimore. The Q-4 looked considerably different, but was essentially similar, the differences largely being a B&O cab, somewhat different domes, a B&O version of a Vanderbilt tank, and Baker valve gear.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s4530goa.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s4538.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo4586s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo4400s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo4437sa.jpg
4-6-2--Three principle classes come to mind--P-5 (USRA original), P-6 (B&O modified copy, with many of the same detail changes exhibited by the Q-4), and the famous P-7 President series (apparently inspired by the Pennsy's K4s). The principle differences between the P-7 and the K-4 were a radial stay (conventional) firebox and 250 vs. 205 psi boiler pressure. Even the valve gear looked the same.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5220sa.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5222s.jpg
Note that this engine had its valve gear changed--and note the tender, too:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5241s.jpg
P-6:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5236.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5239s.jpg
P-7:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5300.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5302.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5305sa.jpg
A steamlined variant in action, and also the now-preserved 5300:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbCFdocYkiA
The B&O was also a big user of 2-10-2s, called Big Sixes because they were big and because they were numbered in the 6000 series. Most numerous and best of these were the S-1s and S-1as. These engines had 64-inch drivers and Baker valve gear, suggesting a USRA heavy 2-10-2 mechanism could be a good starting point:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s6107.jpg
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00002525
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo6179s.jpg
2-8-8-0--70 engines, in classes EL-1, 2, 3, and 5, very much the standard B&O heavy articulated. If someone were to be modeling Rowlesburg's helper station in the glory days, he would need at least a dozen of these beasts (and this is the reason I would nominate this one-road engine). The photos below represent most of the engnes, most of which were converted to simple operation in the 1920s from their original compound configuration:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s7127.jpg
Both front and rear engines of this EL-5 have Baker gear, but the valve gear frames are different:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7151sa.jpg
Walscharts gear on both engines, but check out the three-truck tender! That is one item I would not expect anybody to offer.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7109s.jpg
The glory of mountain main line steam:
http://www.nelsonartworks.net/art_print_2.html
Assigned to helper service at Martinsburg, W.Va.; check out the roundhouse and shop buildings from 1866 that are still there!
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7141s.jpg
This is one that stayed a compound (note different cylinder sizes between front and rear engines); also notice that the engine has two types of valve gear, Walscharts on the rear engine, and Baker on the front engine:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7123s.jpg
Finally, simply because it's a favorite and a modern steam classic, the EM-1 2-8-8-4, with 64-inch drivers (same as a reversed engine of the same wheel arrangement, a Southern Pacific 4-8-8-2 Cab Forward):
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7601sa.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7610s.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s7628.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7622sa.jpg
Did I leave out any favorites from the B&O that you think would sell?
General photo roster links for reference:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
how a bout one of their chunky moguls, Chicago terminal type.
http://photoswest.org/photos/00002376/00002439.jpg (http://photoswest.org/photos/00002376/00002439.jpg)
Quote from: pdlethbridge on April 06, 2010, 09:09:35 PM
how a bout one of their chunky moguls, Chicago terminal type.
http://photoswest.org/photos/00002376/00002439.jpg (http://photoswest.org/photos/00002376/00002439.jpg)
I like the look of that one, I could deffinitely go for a chunky smaller steam locomotive
and this one
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo905s.jpg (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo905s.jpg)
Ah yes, the Chicago Terminal 2-6-0's--more like a very fat 0-6-0, with the main rod going to the rear driver. A special engine for switching and transfer work.
Chicago Terminal actually ended B&O steam operations some time after B&O proper did, with 0-8-0s that also handled passenger trains from the station in Chicago to the service yard there. I seem to recall the date may have been as late as 1960. Can anyone confirm this?
Just for fun, had to include this video link; the tape this is from (and I own a copy) has original live sound, and a big chunk of the tape is on my C&O, including several Alleghenies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI99Dvpxo2w&NR=1
Have fun.
As a recent fan of the B&O, I'm excited at the prospect of finding as much B&O equipment as possible. There's seems to be a number of medium to small steam engines offered by a few manufacturers. I am looking for something a bit larger to top off my collection.
I hope I use the term correctly: drag freight? I want a big B&O steamer that can pull like crazy. It seems the market has chosen to offer up big steamers in C&O (Chessie) markings. They are wonderful, just one letter off. I know the B&O had big 6's, like you have mentioned. One of those would be perfect. Double-heading my Connies is nice, but a behemoth engine would be even nicer.
I have begun focusing on the transition era, so early diesels are always a big hit for me, too--sometimes hard to find. I often wonder why there is so little equipment for the B&O when they were America's first railroad, and dominated the scene for so many years. Don't get me wrong; I have a few of the Chessie engines, and they look good along side my B&O equipment. Call me a purest.
I've rambled enough. I love your idea. Can't get enough B&O.
Regards,
Jonathan
Until someone decides B&O power is worth making, there is this somewhat pricey alternative--but even then, he's cheaper than most brass engines. . .
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/
This hobby shop in Laurel, Md. also handles brass engines, some of which are not that expensive;the firm is also a major distributor for Bachmann:
http://www.peachcreekshops.com/
Hope this helps.
AHM a number of years ago sold a B&O 2-8-8-0. Is that what you wanted? They were used as a pusher at places like M&K junction. It was a slow, pull the paint off the wall sort of engine.
http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/mk.html (http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/mk.html)
(http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s7109ahn.jpg)
To go in the other direction of engine size, how about a properly scaled, Spectrum-quality "William Mason" 4-4-0, and a "engine formerly known as the 'Thatcher Perkins'" ten-wheeler?
I don't have the research at hand, but IIRC the AHM "B&O" articulated was just the Y-6b without the trailing truck. Close, but not really a B&O EL.
There are a few "cross-overs" that might engender some interest. The B&O E-24 Connies were twins with the PRR H-6's. Same with the A-2 4-4-2's and Pennsy E-3's. There are of course a number of versions of the USRA light Pacifics and Mikes around. They do need some redetailing to match B&O practice.
The real issue today is this - the modeling fraternity that is interested in steam is shrinking. There was a time when a manufacturer could make a model of a specific "big" road loco and have a good market. If you did SP, ATSF, NYC, B&O, PRR, you'd be OK. Today, I think Bachmann and the like are trying to spread out their investment in tooling as far as possible, so they are looking at USRA types (and similar copies), maybe some specific popular big road prototypes (PRR K-4, for instance). Or they may look at a lesser-known prototype that can be somewhat generic (i.e., "close enough") and be lettered for a number of roads with maybe just some changes in headlights and valve gear. My thoughts right now are that Bachmann may be looking at either a light Mike or Pacific, but maybe not a USRA design for future release.
I see ebay is offering a Rivarossi 2-10-2 and a Mallet. They both look nice. I haven't joined the ebay shoppers of the world. Still make me nervous... If I saw 'em at a train show, I'd snap 'em up in a heartbeat.
Jonathan
Yes, the B&O was the first American railroad and it was a major player in its region for many years, but it had some big competitors nearby - NYC, Pennsy, N&W to name but a few - glamorous railroads in the wide open spaces (AT&SF, UP, SP, GN, DRGW, NP, Burlington, and many colorful local or regional pikes which all offered competition for the railhound's interest. Hence, the B&O today only has followers in proportion to its size in the grander scheme of things, not a whole lot. However, you will find big B&O equipment with some regularity on ebay. Check especially for brass models.
I note sadly that only one of the railroads I mentioned is still in service, the UP. The N&W, now NS, almost counts as a survivor. I never thought I'd be saying it, but than God for the UP.
Jonathan,
Beware the Rivarossi 2-10-2. I never saw one that ran well and they were VERY noisy. They were not great pullers and unless you can get one with the extra flanged driver for the middle driver set, the blind driver looks ridiculous because of the over sized flanges on the other driver sets.
Great tip... thanks!
Anyone ever run the mallet? If it's got big flanges, my code 83 track won't like it.
Regards,
Jonathan
If you are handy about kit-bashing, the thing to do is find a Rivarossi Big Six at a good price. Then shop around for a Proto2000 USRA Heavy 2-10-2. Mate the Rivarossi superstructure to the Proto mechanism (using the Rivarossi trailing truck with replacment wheelsets. Detail fanatics will want to change out the valve gear from Southern to Baker. Then replace the wheels in the tender trucks. One issue, common to most all Vandy tenders, is that if you want DCC/sound, you're going to have to cut out the coal load to gain access to the interior of the tender.
Quote from: jonathan on April 08, 2010, 10:22:53 AM
... Anyone ever run the mallet? If it's got big flanges, my code 83 track won't like it ...
I have the Rivarossi 2-8-8-0 Mallet that I bought new from Walthers years ago. It runs quite well, smooth and relatively quiet. It is a good looking engine. Got to get some of that stuff to blacken the rods. All my track is code 100 because I have a lot of old stuff and the Mally even negotiates 18" radius with ease because both sets of drivers pivot. They are linked together so they pivot at the same angle. Doesn't mean the loco looks good on 18" ;) but just to let you know how nimble it is. Here's two photos of it when I had it on a shelf at work. If you look at the links you can see the pictures full size.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4503431726_95986574ed_b.jpg (full size)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4503431726_95986574ed.jpg)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4502801489_b430249e7d_b.jpg (full size)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4502801489_b430249e7d_b.jpg)
Georgeous, man! I want one... hard to photograph a black engine, isn't it?
Regards, and thanks for the info.
Jonathan
Quote from: pdlethbridge on April 06, 2010, 09:19:46 PM
and this one
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo905s.jpg (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo905s.jpg)
I love how the tender is sloped to provide more visibility in switching moves, and then that is rendered completely useless by the extended coal bunker!
The B&O had some strange designs. I have a photo of a mallet that has 3 tender trucks. Go figure.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/bo7120s.jpg?t=1270775634 (http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/bo7120s.jpg?t=1270775634)
Quote from: pdlethbridge on April 08, 2010, 09:26:10 PM
The B&O had some strange designs. I have a photo of a mallet that has 3 tender trucks. Go figure.
I recall reading in one of Charles Roberts' books that they used this configuration on more than a few tenders, but this is the first time I've actually
seen it. Didn't the Pennsy have a tender with more wheels behind the T-1?
I know they had 8 wheel trucks
P. D. Lethbridge found some interesting Mallet photos. The first one of the 2-8-8-0 with a short tender is a builder's photo; this is about how all would have looked as delivered, in compound configuration and short tenders. The three-truck tender job he found is notable not only for the clear view of the tank (and I have one in my original post as well), but for the location--that's Grafton, W.Va., which had a track layout, some structures with unusual features, and a town above on a mountainside that looked like something John Allen might have cooked up.
Among these features: a junction layout at the west end of the yard that included a double track split alongside the roundhouse, and a branch junction that headed south (eventually to Charleston, W.Va) that was a wye configuration that overlapped the mainline junction and also enclosed the roundhouse; the same roundhouse was also part of a pedestrian bridge that went over this junction, and that included a walkway that curved along its roof from one side of the house to the other; a large stone shop building that dated to the 1850s; a station from 1910 next to a railroad hotel built in the 1880s (the hotel is visible in the background of the three-truck tender photo); all of this was just across the tracks or within sight of the station, including interlocking towers that were active until recent years. Going further back, there was once an earlier roundhouse in Grafton that was like the roundhouse that is being restored in Martinsburg, W.Va. (this had been a B&O standard design used in several locations, including twin roundhouses at Piemont; they were actually a form of building kit, with cast iron girders made at Mt. Claire). I'll try to find some photos later.
I would be modeling the B&O myself if I weren't so big into C&O's modern steam. And wasn't it Charles Roberts who said every railfan had two favorite railroads, the B&O and another one?
Johnson Bar Jeff likes 19th century power; he might like these links (and consider this locomotive another to wish for):
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/abboc.Html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Winans
Although this is an HO forum, Johnson Bar may want to consider a change to O scale, simply because of what is available (even though it's not cheap).
http://usmrr.blogspot.com/
http://usmrr.blogspot.com/search/label/Locomotives
http://www.smrtrains.com/
http://factorydirecttrains.com/winanscamellocos.aspx
There is this firm, too, which does have some HO Civil War equipment as well (though no locomotives):
http://www.btsrr.com/
http://www.btsrr.com/bts9506.htm
If Johnson Bar is in the East, I invite him (and anyone else) to West Virginia.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,12784.0.html
Enjoy.
J3a-614,
You must be a teacher. Every time I get into your posts, I find I have more homework to do.
This is my first layout. So I started out a little freelance, with a modern theme, using CSX and Amtrak as a prototype to follow.
Now that I've been at it for a few years, my fondness for B&O is growing exponentially. Haven't even gotten halfway through my first layout, and I am already starting to plan my next layout, based on the B&O of course (transition era). Will probably need to work on a layout that hauls coal to the coast, to be loaded on ships. I have seen a sample of a distribution point in Newport News, as I was stationed on a ship, in the yards, right next to a modern shipping distribution point.
You have given me enough stuff to study to keep my busy for quite some time. Thanks, I think. My check book will be unhappy.
Regards,
Jonathan
When I was in my teens, my first engines were all B&O from athearn with the rubber band drive. I started to build a couple of 2' x 8' plywood sheets to match the yards at M&K junction. There were grades at both sides of the junction plus a branch line so there would have been lots of action. The layout never got past the track laying stage because we moved to a different town from a house to an apartment. No room for trains there.
P.D.,
There is the final piece of the puzzle! You guys are making me study too much.
I have a large mountain on my layout (5'X7' peninsula). That can be the start of my coal operation, using small steam and early diesels. Power can be transitioned through a straight portion of the layout--perfect for M&K Junction. It's a 2'X20' stretch along the back wall.
Finally, the coal can be moved to a shipping point, which is currently my passenger yard--another long stretch of about 2'X14'. The Varney Dockside can move cars around the yard. Might need to build a second one (great). Although I do have a 44 tonner that would suffice, and looks cool, too. Hadn't planned to model water, but I suppose it was only a matter of time.
The beauty of it is I can switch between eras and still be reasonably prototypical. CSX can run, if I'm feeling modern. B&O can operate when I'm feeling nostalgic. Gonna start drawing up plans tonight.
I think somebody is plotting my future behind the scenes. :)
Regards,
Jonathan
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 09, 2010, 07:11:17 AM
Johnson Bar Jeff likes 19th century power; he might like these links (and consider this locomotive another to wish for):
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/abboc.Html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Winans
Although this is an HO forum, Johnson Bar may want to consider a change to O scale, simply because of what is available (even though it's not cheap).
http://usmrr.blogspot.com/
http://usmrr.blogspot.com/search/label/Locomotives
http://www.smrtrains.com/
http://factorydirecttrains.com/winanscamellocos.aspx
There is this firm, too, which does have some HO Civil War equipment as well (though no locomotives):
http://www.btsrr.com/
http://www.btsrr.com/bts9506.htm
If Johnson Bar is in the East, I invite him (and anyone else) to West Virginia.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,12784.0.html
Enjoy.
Many thanks for your kindness and trouble in finding and posting these links, J3. Maybe I'll try to download some of the pictures. ... ;)
Those models are indeed beautiful things to behold, but I think at this point in my life I have far too many years and far too much money invested in HO. I'm happy with where I am in the hobby. I'm not sure what I'd do with a $1200 locomotive anyway.
I am in the East, BTW--Philadelphia,to be exact. And I saw the Martinsburg roundhouse from the window of my roommette on my way to Chicago on the Capitol Limited last August. :)
I'm not a teacher, at least not as part of a school system. I am an auditor with the state of West Virginia (I make sure businessmen report wages and pay unemployment tax properly), and I guess I am a teacher in that I spend a lot of my time explaining unemployment compensation law and related matters to these employers so they can pay the appropriate taxes properly. This includes making sure they do not pay too much tax as much as making sure they pay what they owe. After all, they can use the money for their business to help make more jobs!
Funny that you talk about "homework;" that gave me the idea that you can use a reading list. Here are some things I think you'll like (even if your wallet doesn't). I am recalling some of the titles by memory (my library is downstairs) so not all of them may be totally accurate, but you have a good and intelligent readership on this thread, they can correct me and make additional suggestions:
B&O Power, by Larry Sagle and Al Staufer, published by Al Staufer, 1964, no longer in print. B&O locomotives from 1827 to 1960, written mostly by B&O's publicity man of the time.
A Centenial History of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, by Edward Hungerford (2 volumes), published in 1927 as part of the B&O's centenial. History of the road up to that time, although something of a PR piece (B&O historian Herb Harwood called it an "opera liberato, or something like that).
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20090705/COL03/307059997/-1/COL03
Impossible Challenge, by Herb H. Harwood; currently available from Barhard Roberts and Company; history of the B&O's original lines in Maryland from Baltimore to Harpers Ferry.
East End, the Neck of the Bottle, Jeffrey Hollis and Charles Roberts, Barnhard Roberts and Company; B&O from Harpers Ferry to Cumberland.
West End, by Charles Roberts, Barnhard Roberts and Company; B&O from Cumberland to Grafton.
Royal Blue Line, Herb H. Harwood, Barnhard Roberts and Company, B&O from Baltimore to Jersey City (New York City).
Sand Patch, Charles Roberts, Barnhard Roberts and Company; B&O from Cumberland to Connelsville, Pa.
While looking up the Barnhard Roberts material, I came across this:
http://www.barnardroberts.com/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_S._Roberts
http://www.bing.com/search?q=herbert+h.+harwood&FORM=HPNTDF&pc=HPNTDF&src=IE-SearchBox
Be careful not to have too much fun, for your wallet's sake!
Well, let's see what we can find for photos.
Looks like a good place to start:
http://www.railpictures.net/
Among search categories for railroads one for "fallen flags," and the B&O is in there:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php
Let's look at some:
That coaling tower looks familiar--saw a 2-8-8-0 with a three-truck tender in front of the other side recently:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=310862&nseq=10
Look at what's on a tourist road in Pennsylvania:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=303443&nseq=20
Grafton again.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=301640&nseq=24
Just an interesting photo and caption:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=295997&nseq=33
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=283298&nseq=47
Back to Grafton; station and hotel partly visible:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=282271&nseq=48
Cold weather; note the ice on the crosshead, from a dripping compressor:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=276041&nseq=55
Beautiful beast:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=275424&nseq=59
Never did see this one:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=271721&nseq=62
Classic location:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=270613&nseq=70
Far west end:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=270400&nseq=71
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=270399&nseq=72
Back to Grafton:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=259259&nseq=91
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=257231&nseq=94
This bridge is where the previous Grafton photos were taken from:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=255443&nseq=96
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=250734&nseq=105
For Johnson Bar:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=229503&nseq=131
Mail by rail:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=228307&nseq=132
Armstrong (manual or mechanical) interlocking:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=219358&nseq=144
P-5 as delivered, and the the C&O Canal:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=213850&nseq=174
Another one for Johnson Bar:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=201274&nseq=201
Harpers Ferry in 1970:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=190784&nseq=223
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=190783&nseq=224
Big Six in Ohio:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=182132&nseq=238
Ex NYC River series:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=152209&nseq=261
Enjoy.
diesels?????? Shame on you :o :o :o :o :o
Some more photos:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=142391&nseq=278
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=141630&nseq=280
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=141629&nseq=281
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=134214&nseq=294
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=131214&nseq=304
Taken from the footbridge that ran partway on the roof of the roundhouse (out of sight to the right):
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=130998&nseq=305
I like the way things used to be:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=66104&nseq=369
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=57107&nseq=382
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=55532&nseq=386
Late rebuild of a P-7--prototype of the Mantua 4-6-2:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65626&nseq=370
Enjoy.
Well, at least you showed some steam. 8) 8)
Thanks, again, sir. Some great photos to look at. I keep getting more ideas than I will ever be able to build.
Just when I thought there was no prototype for the weird font ends that Mantua put on their steamers, you go and find a photo of those crazy handrails and the weird lump that sits on the pilot. I'm sure there's some safety, or aerodynamic reason behind it, but it sure didn't enhance the beauty at all.
Guess I took mine back a few years:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Yardbird/DSCN2017.jpg)
She needed a little cosmetic surgery. Now if I could only learn to paint and weather...
Thanks again,
Jonathan
Glad you love it all.
That lump is a stone shield for front frame mounted air compressors, a common location for pumps on later engines (or rebuilt ones, as in a P-7c or P-7d, or a Reading T-1 4-8-4) that also had cast frames. The shields B&O used on the rebuilt P-7s were their own. Baldwin used a semi-cylindrical shape with a half-domed top (see B&O's EM-1 2-8-8-4, or a number of Baldwin designed 4-8-4s, including those of the Atlantic Coast Line, Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac, and the Santa Fe, the latter represented by a Bachmann model). Lima used a pair of angular-looking shields (see NKP 2-8-4s), while Alco used a flat shield with two little angled tops (UP 4-8-4s, 4-6-6-4s, and 4-8-8-4s). Of course, there would be exceptions, usually in the case of engines that were ordered as copies of locomotives orignially designed by someone else (L&N 2-8-4s built by Lima in 1949 that were copies of engines originally designed and built by Baldwin in the early 1940s).
Next reading assignment--Model Railroader's Locomotive Cyclopedia, Vol. 1, Steam Locomotives (a B&O Big 6 is in there, if I remember correctly), or check out Hundmann Publications' Locomotive Cyclopedia, Vols. 1 and 2 (which includes EM-1 2-8-8-4s, and a B&A 4-6-6T). And while I haven't had the chance to study the Hundmann books properly, it is likely that, like the MR book, that it has a section on locomotive appliances (air compressors, injectors, feedwater heaters, stokers, etc.), that also shows proper practice in regard to piping this stuff up for those extreme detail hounds.
For me as a former engineering student who had unfortunate problems with calculus, this stuff is fascinating.
A site with a few photos that help illustrate these shields:
http://parkengines.railfan.net/
NKP 2-8-2 , built by Lima, based on the USRA light 2-8-2; note that this engine has long-frame Baker valve gear (also used by NYC 4-6-4, C&O 2-6-6-6s, and B&O Big Sixes):
http://parkengines.railfan.net/IL/images/pages/NKP639.html
The photo further down of the Illinois Central 4-8-2 doesn't enlarge (blast!), but the engine does illustrate that the IC didn't bother with stone shields!
http://parkengines.railfan.net/IL/content.shtml
I need to get busy on my own layout!
Occasionally, I see B&O 2-10-2s by IHC. Do they pull well? I probably wouldn't be pulling more than 30 cars, but it would be nice if more were possible. I think I'm within the bounds of conduct. Not looking for disparaging information... just wondering about it's upper limit.
R,
Jonathan
Should have remembered this group--the 40 T-3 4-8-2s, homebuilt by Mt. Claire using rebuilt boilers from older 4-6-2s and 2-8-2 in P-1aa and various Q-1 classes between 1942 and 1948; No. 5594 would be the last steam locomotive built at Mt. Claire. As near as I can figure, these engines ran mostly west of Cumberland on the Chicago line in passenger service to Pittsburgh and in fast freight service in Ohio. Oh, these engines have 70-inch drivers and long-frame Baker valve gear--same as Bachmann's USRA light and heavy 4-8-2s.
The first T-3 on an excursion in Ohio in 1955:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5555s.jpg
The air compressors are visible behind the large shield in this view:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5556s.jpg
Left side view:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5573.jpg
Other shots:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5581s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5591s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5561sa.jpg
In the late 1950s, the growing diesel roster was about to outgrow the two- and three-digit number series it was assigned to, and the steam roster was continuing to shrink, so the road went into a general renumbering scheme in which all steamers were renumbered into a three digit series and the diesels got 4-digit numbers. That is why the former No. 5562 now wears No. 704 in this photo at Butler, Pa.:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s704r.jpg
This photo brings sadness to me as not only is the engine out of service and awaiting scrapping--but it was photographed in 1961, well after the end of steam operations, well after the establishment of the museum in Baltimore. The railroad that preserved so much also let way too much of its later steam glory slip away.
Some other photos:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s6177abn.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo524s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/boEM1.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo650s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo657s.jpg
In 1960:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s670.jpg
In 1958:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo675s.jpg
These next 4-8-2 (class T-4) shots are for P. D. Lethbridge; they are ex-Boston & Maine Baldwin 4-8-2s (4100 series), purchased by the B&O in 1947 (and illustrating Baldwin's approach to air compressor shields):
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo751s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam7.html
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo755s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5650sa.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5650s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5662s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5660s.jpg
P. D. Lethbridge and Rye Guy will like the idea that this is one that did make it into the museum at Baltimore:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s600.jpg
Photo page links for reference:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
One last link:
http://www.borhs.org/
That ought to do it for this thread. Enjoy.
Those T4's were worth their weight in gold. The B&O ran the wheels off them.It's a shame that none of the 3 railroads that had those 4-8-2's saved any. The Lehigh and Hudson River units were an exact copy of the B&M R1D's that had the centipede tenders. The B&O never had any of the engines with the centipede tenders
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lhr12s.jpg (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lhr12s.jpg)
http://abpr.railfan.net/july99/07-29-99/bxm4113steamatmechanicvilleny1-7-56.jpg (http://abpr.railfan.net/july99/07-29-99/bxm4113steamatmechanicvilleny1-7-56.jpg)
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo755s.jpg (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo755s.jpg)
Johathan wondered about the IHC 2-10-2. Reportedly it runs quite well, but the design can best be described as generic; closest thing it resembles is an AT&SF engine with a C&O cab. What you could do if you were ambitious enough would be to pick up one of these engines and a Rvarossi/AHM B&O Big Six and graft the Big Six boiler, cylinders, trailing truck, and tender onto the IHC mechanism (which I seem to recall also has the long-frame Baker valve gear of the Big Six). At least one commercial custom builder will do this for you for a price; links follow:
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/BOSteamPower.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/bigsixfix.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/howtoorder.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/orderform20.htm
Alternately, you could just go with double-headed 2-8-2s. That's what the B&O used east of Brunswick, Md. because of the short turntable at the Riverside roundhouse in Baltimore. Bigger power did go there, including EM-1 2-8-8-4s for overhauls, but did not run there on a regular basis because to turn the longer power required the use of a wye track, and that in turn tied up a part of the main line! On the other hand, why not improve operating efficiency with bigger steam power? After all, a proper railroad uses black locomotives that pull nice long trains and burn West Virginia coal!
J3a,
No one will ever accuse me of being a rivet counter. If you look at my Mike, I built it based on the Q-10a-c class of Mikes, for the sole reason they had a headlight centered on the front of the smoke box.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam6.html
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo4713s.jpg
I numbered it after my birth year because I chose details from all the different Mikes, instead of a specific prototype. If I liked the detail, and it was easy to model, on it went (even it was actually a Pennsy detail, God forbid). I put more effort into making my Mike run well, than I did in detailing it.
So, if you say the IHC is a good runner, that's good enough for me. I would probably look for some superdetails that would be appropriate and personalize the IHC a bit. Buying two big sixes to make one correct big six is not exactly economical (still have some young ones in the house).
I also like your idea of double heading Mikes for the long haul to the shoreline. I wonder what my chances would be of finding another 37 year old Mantua, that's in good enough shape to rebuild? I notice Bachmann makes a painted/undecorated Mike that I could probably personalize, B&O style, to match my Mantua. Bet it runs quite well. For that matter, many companies seem to produce Mikes. They are never in short supply. My wallet could chose the Mike.
If I can match the speeds (and I probably can), I wonder if a Connie and a Mike were ever double headed? Bet I could pull 30+ cars with that combo. I had intended to use the Connies to run the coal to M&K Junction, and have the big steam take over to the coast. The little steam, or early diesels, were to be at the mine itself.
Big plans for a 120 sq ft layout. I may have to compromise a bit. I am probably close to a spaghetti bowl the way it is now. I have four separate loops of trackage to connect. There was a famous modeler, who talked about designing a transportation system rather than a clever layout. Probably should have paid more attention to the words than the pictures.
Thanks for making me think some more. I do enjoy these exercises, especially when its about history, not math.
Regards,
Jonathan
Were Connies and Mikes doubleheaded? You betcha! Actually, just about anything might have been doubleheaded with anything else at one time or another, depending on conditions. I've seen photos of 2-10-2s with 4-8-4s (AT&SF), 2-10-4s and 2-6-6-6s (C&O--likely a power move to transfer engines rather than to used all that tractive effort), 2-8-2s and 2-10-4s (C&O, Powell Hill outside Columbus, Ohio), 2-8-8-2s and 4-8-4s or 4-8-2s (AT&SF again), 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 (B&O, passenger trains in West Virginia on the West End), 2-10-2 and 4-6-2 or 4-8-2 (B&O passenger train about to go up Sand Patch), 2-8-8-2 and 2-6-6-4 (N&W, most famously on Blue Ridge), 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 (AT&SF and Southern Pacific--and the 4-8-4 was a Daylight), 4-6-2 and 4-8-4 (SP excursion at high speed some years ago in California)--you could almost go on forever. . .even 2-10-2 and passenger diesels (AT&SF and B&O).
Good news, then. I may already have all the power I need. Will have to test these engines to match speeds. With a DCC and a DC connie, one of them should be reasonably close in speed to the Mantua. Of course I could always pull the decoder out of the one connie to match the DC connie and just double head them, but that's not my first choice (would look nice though).
I already have enough double diesels to pull anything I can couple to them. Here's a plug for Bachmann, by the way. My two baby trainmasters will run as smooth, and pull as strong, as some other company's engines, that are quite a bit more expensive. I have been very impressed. They just needed a tiny amount of tweaking to get them to purr for me. Love 'em, as I do my connies. They (connies) are as quiet and smooth as any engine I have seen run. Talk about getting your money's worth.
Regards,
Jonathan
Glad I could help.
A funny story about the black 4-8-2 doubleheading with the orange and red Daylight streamliner up Tehachape (sp?) in the 1940s--the train was struggling up the notorious grade at low speed, and a raifan noticed a couple of older ladies riding in the seats ahead of him. They were commenting about the slow progress up the hill, when one of them was able to look through the window around a curve at the struggling locomotives. "It's no wonder we're moving so slowly," she said to her companion. "Our nice streamliner isn't just pulling our train, it's pushing that old engine, too."
This is supposed to be a true story. I don't claim to be good enough to make it up!
I've used this before, perhaps you've seen them, but these video clips of N&W steam from the 1950s explain a lot of the appeal of mainline mountain railroading. Compound 2-8-8-2s, 2-6-6-4s, auxiliary tanks, pushers. . .all here. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV8rA3UE-lc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-6FKD0pr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y__yR95DSwc
This next one is a slow loader, but it's a good movie, about the jobs railroads do. . .it's still the N&W, but it could have been any road at the time. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mXo_ya-kAE&feature=related
Other video links:
http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=608
http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=607
Enjoy.
QuoteLate rebuild of a P-7--prototype of the Mantua 4-6-2:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65626&nseq=370 (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65626&nseq=370)
Gosh, those P-7s were beautiful locomotives!
QuoteP. D. Lethbridge and Rye Guy will like the idea that this is one that did make it into the museum at Baltimore:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s600.jpg (http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s600.jpg)
I like it, too. I've been meaning to "remount" a Mantua Rogers 4-6-0 boiler on a Mantua 2-6-0 running gear as a "homage" to #600 but haven't gotten around to it.
I say "remount" because I did this once, but then I restored the boiler to its original running gear. I don't remember why. ???
More video links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttgguqpVzSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoOTgqM76Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNn99V4OpAQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEGHFSYW8c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ore_RPx_txs&feature=related
Not all of these are 100% B&O, but all have some B&O footage.
Enjoy.
I don't know how good this is, but it is a correct prototype for the B&O (Q-3 class, 100 engines, No. 4500 is in the museum), although the B&O went in for a high headlight and of course would move the bell, too.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/187-5171
Incidently, very often these engines had footboard pilots, and footboards on the tenders, too. I wonder if Bachmann has spare footboards available, like those on the rear of the various C&O tenders. They're a handy item to put on other engines, including my own Bachmann NYC 2-8-0 that I hope to put to work on a Kanawha & Michigan connecting line on my C&O/Virginian layout (if I ever get around to building the monster).
I need to get a round tuit. My problem is, all I have are square tuits. . .
. . .I know, bad joke. . .
Yep, saw that one. Seriously considering it. I understand they run great. I can live with the headlight location. It would match what I built, following the Q-10 prototypes. A bonus, is one can get a DC version, with sound. That is a bargain very hard to pass up.
There seems to be a mutual conspiracy to keep the bell up on the smoke box. Even the superdetail retailers offer that configuration as a standard. I can live with that, too. The manufacturers must have decided, a long time ago, that the bell was more cosmetically appealing up front.
Incidentally, I put allot of effort into mounting a front coupler on my Mike, for double heading purposes. Guess it wasn't a standard practice in the 70's.
There are rounduits all over my layout (footboards are one of them). You can have some of mine. I'm wrapped up in Spring Cleaning (tracks, wheels & couplers). I recently became a probationary member of a MR club, and I've invited the gang over to peak at my layout. Soooooo, I have to make sure everything runs well. Engine collecting and scenery will have to wait a bit longer.
Regards,
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan - I was a club member for a good number of years, having club members visit is a great idea. Don't worry about getting stuff to run. Coffee and donuts are a lot more important. You might even consider (if club rules permit) having an adult beverage handy.
As for couplers on steam engines in the seventies, it was hard to double head engines or even have the control to use them for switching so the pilot mounted coupler was often there just for decoration.
This discussion of B&O power has caused me to study some railroad history; specifically, the merger that took place when the Chesapeake & Ohio swallowed up several railroads (including my beloved B&O)—thus, the birth of the Chessie System.
Because the C&O was a much larger operation, it makes sense that there is so much more model equipment available for the C&O. I must now reevaluate the goals for my own empire.
Would it make sense to have my B&O operation deliver its goods to a junction point, like M&K (or a similar point), where the goods would be transitioned to a C&O drag freight engine, for delivery to points East (like Newport News) or to points West (somewhere across the Ohio River)? I haven't found an example, yet. If something like this actually happened, it would be much easier for me to hunt for that special flagship, perhaps a T-1, or the nifty H-4 that our gracious host offers.
Apparently, I have more reading to do, along with saving my pennies.
Regards,
Jonathan
That's interesting, Jonathan. I'm a fan of all the Chessie System lines, and I am considering creating a town for my (future) layout which the B&O and C&O both serve. It will probably be set in southwestern WVA, where the two came fairly close together, I think. If I make it the town up, but use the real railroads, I will have a lot more freedom to play around with facts!
B&O and C&O--where did they join up? Which places would make the most interesting from a modeling viewpoint?
A lot would depend on the style of railroading you want to recreate. One example that would not be typical would be the major passenger operation at Washington Union Station, Washington, DC. The station in classic days was owned by the Pennsylvania and the B&O (both of which entered from the north), with the Southern, the C&O, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, and Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac all sharing space as tenants; switching in the station itself was handled by the Washington Terminal Company, which had its own locomotives (0-6-0s and 0-8-0s of Pennsy design but with conventional fireboxes in steam, blue boiler-equipped RS-1s in the diesel age). Operation was all steam prior to 1936 or so, when the Pennsy electrified and brought GG1s and P5s into the picture. Many trains terminated here from north and south, many were reshuffled with cars running through on the Pennsy and the southern connections, while B&O trains were wyed at the north approach to the station and backed in before proceeding north or west. Depending on era, passenger consists could be very colorful: Pennsy's red, Southern's two-tone green, Pullman green on about everybody else (this is in the 1920s), blue and grey on the B&O after 1935 or so, orange and maroon on the C&O prior to 1917, stainless steel and purple on ACL starting in the 1930s, classic stainless with modern black lettering on Southern and SAL in the streamline era (and citrus red, green and orange SAL diesels with purple and silver ACL diesels from about 1936 to 1947--more about this later.)
Locomotives for all these roads shared the twin roundhouses and turntables at a location called Ivy City, just north of the wye track outside the station. In the classic steam era, this would include 4-6-2s from B&O, SR, PRR, and RF&P; the latter would also have 4-8-2s and later would add beautiful Baldwin 4-8-4s. The Pennsy would add the electric power and in the '30s sleek E-units from ACL, SAL, and B&O would start to show up. The most interesting development is that about 1947 the RF&P began to substitute its post-war 4-8-4s for the ACL and SAL diesels, which had been running through from Richmond prior to this time. My guess is that this change had to do with payments between roads for handling through trains (I., RF&P was either paying mileage on diesels it didn't own, or wasn't getting paid for locomotive use and wanted to receive payments--wonder what the real story was). In any event, it was one of the few cases where steam (temporarily) displaced diesels.
This would almost have to be a huge layout, yet it would be primarily a switching road, with the twist that most of the equipment would be passenger cars! Not typical, and as expensive as all get-out, but glamorous and cool.
What would be more typical? There are several locations. They would include Huntington, W.Va. (location of C&O's main locomotive repair shop), with a B&O line coming down the Ohio River to terminate in a little interchange yard; part of the line continued along the Ohio (and paralleling the main line of the C&O) to an interchange with the Norfolk & Western at Kenova, W.Va. The N&W, by the way, came in on a line that was elevated well above the B&O and C&O as it crossed the Ohio there, and this required a large two-level station between N&W and C&O trains. Amazing as it may seem, all three roads still had passenger traffic until Amtrak day, including the B&O; the latter was a mixed train with caboose service, connecting Huntington with St. Louis line trains at Parkersburg, W.Va.
Another connection between B&O and C&O was at South Charleston, W.Va. This was a southernmost extension of the line out of Grafton to Charleston (part of which had been the Coal and Coke Railroad); the interchange point, on the south bank of the Kanawha River, required another large bridge that was shared with the local trolley line prior to the abandonment of the electric service in the late 1930s. Equally interesting was the interchange on the north bank of the Kanawha with, of all roads, the New York Central (formerly the Kanawha & Michigan). The former Coal and Coke station that the B&O and NYC shared would also be the terminal for Virginian passenger trains coming in on trackage rights on the NYC from Deepwater after the big bridge and connecting track there were opened in 1931. Two other operations of interest in this area included a New York Central line running north out of Charleston, running parallel to the B&O as far as Blue Creek, where it crossed the B&O on a diamond at the end of bridge before heading up into coal country to a place called Hitop, W.Va.; this was a school-bus service handled by a doodlebug, and later by an RDC, and lasted until 1959. Equally interesting was the interchange at Dundon, W.Va., with the 18-mile long Buffalo Creek & Gauley, which ran with steam until 1965!
There would be other locations, largely in Ohio, including a small town hot spot at Athens, and big-city passenger operations in Cincinnati and Columbus, but I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with them. Perhaps someone else can fill in the gaps.
In the meantime, watch this space for more B&O material. To quote the Bach Man, anticipate!
One of the amazing things about the internet is what some people are willing to share. Much of this is material that for one reason or another would never see the light of day otherwise. Come along on this Train of Discovery, as author Alfred Runte might call it. . .
We'll just be setting up links; feel free to explore and perhaps be inspired by what you see.
http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/grafton.html
http://www.wvpics.com/GraftonPictures.htm
http://www.wvpics.com/mailpouchbarn.htm
http://www.wvpics.com/mailpouchbarn2.htm
http://www.wvpics.com/mailpouchbarn4.htm
The B&O station is just out of sight to the right of this bridge at Philippi, W.Va.:
http://www.wvpics.com/philippibridge.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/redarrow101/4383918274/
Railpictures search result for Grafton:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?location=CSX%20Mountain%20Sub
http://arrts-arrchives.com/photo.html
http://mtnsub.org/
http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/shortline_sub.html
http://www.wvrailroads.net/index.php/Baltimore_%26_Ohio_Railroad
http://www.wvrailroads.net/index.php/Image:Cheat-River-Tray-Run-Bridge.jpg
Don't know how long this may stay up before it times out, but it did show up. . .
http://stores.ebay.com/aRRts-aRRchives_Baltimore-Ohio_W0QQ_fsubZ9QQ_sidZ20375906QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322
http://stores.ebay.com/aRRts-aRRchives_STEAM-LOCOMOTIVES_W0QQ_fsubZ9300807QQ_sidZ20375906QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-2-8-0-on-FREIGHT-2-Q4s_W0QQitemZ260505168159QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca751691f
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-E27-2-8-0-X2897-WEST-2_W0QQitemZ6575867688QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item187f3c728
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-Q3-MIKADO-4501-E-BOUND_W0QQitemZ330376962319QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec00610f
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-PACIFIC-5044-w-14-CARS_W0QQitemZ330376967569QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec007591
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-Q3-4547-on-EB-FREIGHT_W0QQitemZ330376971470QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec0084ce
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-BUCKHANNON-WV-STATION-STEAM-ENGs_W0QQitemZ330376974035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec008ed3
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-BLW-SHARKS-Q4-COAL-TRAIN_W0QQitemZ330376993251QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec00d9e3
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-EMD-Fs-Q3-FRT-TRAINS_W0QQitemZ260506279104QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca7625cc0
This shot shows the rear of the roundhouse at Grafton; note the steps leading up to the roof. That is part of a footbridge that goes over the tracks on the other side of the house, and runs part of the way on the roundhouse roof! And it's gone! Argh!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-Q3-COAL-TRAIN-at-ROUNDHOUSE_W0QQitemZ330377050101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec01b7f5
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=330377050101
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-PACIFIC-5044-REAR-3-4_W0QQitemZ260506656779QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca768200b
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-GRAFTON-WV-COAL-TOWER-ENGINE-YARD_W0QQitemZ330377219851QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec044f0b
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=330377219851
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-BENWOOD-WV-Q4-4619-on-FREIGHT_W0QQitemZ260506735437QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca769534d
http://cgi.ebay.com/BALTIMORE-OHIO-BENWOOD-WV-EM-1-7627-on-FREIGHT_W0QQitemZ260506676291QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca7686c43
To be continued. . .
Here we go again, looking at B&O resources on the internet:
http://users.erols.com/ttrogers/index.html
M&K Junction at Rowlesburg, W.Va.
http://www.trainweb.org/zeniphotos/CSX8711MKJct.jpg
http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/mk.html
http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/d_tower.html
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/16342656
http://davecathell.tripod.com/cathelli.html
http://cg-tower.com/cpl/
http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/index.htm
http://borail.net/
http://www.electricearl.com/parkersburg/railroad.html
http://www.electricearl.com/parkersburg/index.html
http://community-2.webtv.net/billsrrempire/BaltimoreOhio/
http://www.wvrailmuseum.com/index.asp
http://ohiorr.railfan.net/bo.html
http://www.horailroad.com/bollman-truss-bridge/index5.shtml
http://indiana.railfan.net/picarc.html
http://willardlibrary.oplin.org/historical_railroad_photographs.htm
http://www.smethporthistory.org/bradford/BR&P/b&o/b&odepot.html
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/index.htm
http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/index.html
B&O P-7 4-6-2s:
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Friends/DavyCormack/BO_Presidents.htm
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1980675
http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/misc.htm
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pt_of_rocks.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pt_of_rocks1.jpg
http://www.familyoldphotos.com/oh/2b/b_and_o_railroad_station_mt_vern.htm
http://www.railroadsignals.us/cplprimer.htm
http://www.btco.net/ghosts/railroads/street/streettrack.html
http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/index.html
http://rlhs.org/rrhistry/rrh192/BaltoBelt.html
http://www.american-rails.com/baltimore-and-ohio-railroad-links.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsfanatic/id23.html
http://www.westernrailimages.com/BO-Baltimore-Ohio-Railroad/BO-Baltimore-Ohio-Railroad/7244299_94UDm#465486826_76yVu
http://www.semaphores.com/
Whew!
This is among the links above, but is valuable enough (at least I think so) to be in a place where you can find it easily.
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Friends/DavyCormack/BO_Presidents.htm
Again, that running gear is a lot like that of PRR K4s; could this be something for Bachmann to consider?
Somewhere I saw a photo of an engineer staring at the middle engineer side tire. It was off the rim and just leaning against the side rods. He had just brought the loco to a stop from 60+mph where it had come off the rim at speed. I bet it made a heck of a racket. :o :o :o :o
I seem to recall the same photo, or set of photos. They were in some sort of coffee table book if I remember right, and it was on the B&O.
I wonder which made more noise--that banging tire and other parts or the engineer's heart as he's watching this tire being hurled about on the rods as he tries to stop without derailing.
Related matter--I have a copy of Al Staufer's "Thoroughbreds" (NYC Hudson book), in which he has a section of comments by the men who worked with these engines. One incident involved a 4-6-4 doubleheading with a 4-8-2 (Mohawk on the Central), and the Mohawk lost its main driver off the axle at high speed account of a burned journal. The train got stopped, no derailment, but both engineers were severely disciplined for not noticing at some point that the journal had to be cherry red, smoking, and with a strong smell of burning grease, too.
Like a lot of things, like flight, driving on mountain roads or in snow, and the sea, railroading isn't necessarily dangerous, but it can be terribly unforgiving of error.
too...
much...
input...
Seriously, that is a great wealth of knowledge. I was aware of perhaps 20% of it. Seems to me I've seen alot of old layout photos, where Grafton was a very popular area to model.
Thanks, again, for collecting all these sites into one place.
I swore I would never go back to school....
R,
J
B&O Power is the standard reference for B&O steam, but be careful, the book does have some misinformation in it (like my personal favorite, that the EL-5 were usra locomotives. THEY WERE NOT.)
"Q. The definitive history of the B&O Railroad Companys Q-class mikado locomotives" is hard to find, but is insanely detailed and technical. Want specs on class Q-odd? Want to see a diagram of every tender every used on any B&O mike? Its in there.
These 2, plus a good set of steam diagrams (such as those offered by TLC) is all you need. West End is also an excellent book, and has loads of information on the terrain B&Os biggest operated in.
Which brings me to models. Brass for you HO guys isnt a bad bargain; Samhongsa made a large number of steam for "Westside Model Company" most of which is available at very reasonable prices. They even did an EM-1, and the one I owned was the best running model loco I have ever seen; it also, due to its weight and running characteristics, would pull like...well, like a 2-8-8-4 should.
Why the lack of steam for B&O from plastic manufacturers, idk. The P1, Q4, and S1 at least were not only "generic" enough to be stand ins (or indeed, modeled from) USRA or other-road "heavy" versions of their type, and the 2-8-8-0 was immensely successful. It was better at what it did than the Big Boy, Allegheny, AC-12...only DM&IRs M3/4 and N&Ws Ys compare. (Here come the Big Boy fans, I can tell...because they ran those things over 3% grades and 12 degree curves for 40 years, amirite??)
An EM-1 model could, with detail changes, perhaps stand in for DM&IR and NP locos, but the EM1 was smaller than either of them (not only did B&O have insane grades, but also insane curves and tunnel restrictions.) A 2-8-8-0 model would be fairly road specific; UP also had some 2-8-8-0s, but they were quite a bit different.
Now, the good. The Q-3 was simply a USRA light mike, the P-5, a USRA pacific. The Spectrum 2-8-0 is a fair match for the E-27 2-8-0, and from it one could make a good L-2 0-8-0 (B&O made em that way, after all!). The C&O mountain from spectrum isnt a terrible representation of a T-3. But as far as "big" B&O steam, say Q-4 and up, its pretty grim. At least in N we have the Kato mikado, a pretty good "generic" heavy mikado.
B&O was the third largest railroad in the US, and seems from the amount of printed and web-based material to be in the top 5 in popularity. Why model makers ignore the possibilities ill never know.
Kind of why i have switched to C&O. Even in N, pretty good array of stuff is available. B&O always will be my favorite road, but until a good 2-8-8-0 and 2-8-2 come along, C&O it is for me.
February 1963, I haven't quite gotten over it yet :( It's a sore subject.
Robert
huh????
That's the date of the merger between the C&O and the B&O. It was the beginning of the end of the B&O (and would eventually result in the three-way merger with the Western Maryland to become the Chessie System).
Even then, the merger was a rather gradual thing. The B&O portion, for instance, still operated under its original charter until the formation of CSX. In fact, when you see equipment lettered "System" in some form, or perhaps "Lines," (as in New York Central System or Pennsylvania Lines), this is an indication of a railroad with several corporate entities (usually a result of mergers) in which the subsidiary entities have not been completely digested, usually for tax or accounting reasons.
Came across some more steam footage on the B&O--from the 1970s!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXIEG31HKRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJorlcjxvvw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2BoMFZcnDI&feature=related
Who cares about loud paint with a nice loud stack?
B&O 4-6-2 footage, in larger scales--in live steam!
In Gauge 1, in Switzerland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhHjYn2sFA
At the Chesapeake & Allegheny Live Steamers set-up in Leakin Park, Baltimore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXekQMVxbbQ&feature=related
Chessie Steam Special again, with WM F-units for dynamic braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1V2nXdi24&playnext_from=TL&videos=2lhVOhnMy_c&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh%2Bdiv-1r-3-HM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDKLiTYez5o&NR=1
Nice to have more money for bigger toys!
A B&O photo link (partially accessed in past posts):
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo.html
The most interesting photos are those of P-7s, particularly later rebuilds, such as P-7cs, P-7ds, and so on. These are the closest prototypes to Mantua's 4-6-2:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s106ags.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s104.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5314ahn.jpg
One of the interesting things to note is that the P-7 class and its variations were never painted black. As delivered in 1927, they were painted an olive or pullman green, with gold lettering and red and gold pinstriping; the PRR in that time used a similar striping pattern that had actually been in use for passenger power since the 19th century. After 1940, the 5300s lost their names, and were painted blue, like the passenger trains they pulled. Some color photos follow; take note that wheels and running gear are usually black:
Location is Cumberland, Md., east of the station, and about to pass the pre-civil war rolling mill where the B&O for a time made its own rails, a necessity in a time that preceeded a large commercial steel industry in Pittsburgh; sadly demolished only in the 1970s. We have lost too much:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5309dhn.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5309alr.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5309hba.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5308ahn.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s531ac.jpg
Did I say the wheels and running gear were black? Does this engine (an unrebuilt P-7)have blue drivers?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5307o.jpg
Finally, a video link for 2-8-8-0 (even though this is an HO forum):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdJyYNfues&feature=related
Enjoy.
Should have remembered this one, B&O class D-30:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Locomotive&scale=H&manu=walthers&item=&keywords=0-6-0&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-67300
Seem to have been used on lighter jobs, such as working in the Baltimore area, as opposed to shoving hoppers over a hump at Cumberland.
Bachmann also makes this, but I would get a "2-6-2" that is based on it and replace the tank and remove the leading and trailing trucks; reason for this is that the 2-6-2 has valve gear that is missing from the 0-6-0 proper.
Have fun.
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 19, 2010, 09:12:18 AM
The most interesting photos are those of P-7s, particularly later rebuilds, such as P-7cs, P-7ds, and so on. These are the closest prototypes to Mantua's 4-6-2:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s106ags.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s104.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5314ahn.jpg
One of the interesting things to note is that the P-7 class and its variations were never painted black. As delivered in 1927, they were painted an olive or pullman green, with gold lettering and red and gold pinstriping; the PRR in that time used a similar striping pattern that had actually been in use for passenger power since the 19th century. After 1940, the 5300s lost their names, and were painted blue, like the passenger trains they pulled. Some color photos follow; take note that wheels and running gear are usually black.
Did I say the wheels and running gear were black? Does this engine (an unrebuilt P-7)have blue drivers?
So, then, there was prototype precedent for Mantua/Tyco painting the pacifics used in the "Royal Blue" train sets blue. :)
Yes, they were painted blue, but the Mantua color was much too light. The Royal Blue was a very dark blue - almost a Navy blue.
EBT- Here's one for you. Only in the Navy. Navy blue is actually black. My wife and I go 'round and 'round about this every time either of us gets something which is dark blue or black. But in this case, blue is black. All I have to do to prove it is drag out my old dress blues, er, blacks, er, oh, what the hell?
You'll know the tender is black ( navy blue ) if it has 13 buttons on the front ;D ;D ;D
You're gonna have me singing Anchors Aweigh if you're not careful ;D
And I'll throw a bucket of prop wash over your head if you do! :o :o :o :o
I think that B&O navy blue falls into the same category as PRR brunswick green!
Quote from: Woody Elmore on April 22, 2010, 08:06:26 AM
I think that B&O navy blue falls into the same category as PRR brunswick green!
I was thinking the same thing after I viewed those B&O pictures. Brunswick Green: Can't tell it from black! ;D
Or so they say. ... :)
How the world has changed. When I was in the navy, They wanted everyone to know that you were a U.S. service man. Now if you are over seas they don't want people to know that you are a U.S. service person. I guess they have good reasons for that today. Any way I am glad I was able to serve my country.
Quote from: RAM on April 22, 2010, 11:19:17 PM
How the world has changed. When I was in the navy, They wanted everyone to know that you were a U.S. service man. Now if you are over seas they don't want people to know that you are a U.S. service person. I guess they have good reasons for that today.
You can say that twice and mean it! :(
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 13, 2010, 03:30:54 AM
I don't know how good this is, but it is a correct prototype for the B&O (Q-3 class, 100 engines, No. 4500 is in the museum), although the B&O went in for a high headlight and of course would move the bell, too.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/187-5171
Incidently, very often these engines had footboard pilots, and footboards on the tenders, too. I wonder if Bachmann has spare footboards available, like those on the rear of the various C&O tenders. They're a handy item to put on other engines, including my own Bachmann NYC 2-8-0 that I hope to put to work on a Kanawha & Michigan connecting line on my C&O/Virginian layout (if I ever get around to building the monster).
I need to get a round tuit. My problem is, all I have are square tuits. . .
. . .I know, bad joke. . .
B&O had some mikes with the center headlight, just not many.
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 11, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
Johathan wondered about the IHC 2-10-2. Reportedly it runs quite well, but the design can best be described as generic; closest thing it resembles is an AT&SF engine with a C&O cab. What you could do if you were ambitious enough would be to pick up one of these engines and a Rvarossi/AHM B&O Big Six and graft the Big Six boiler, cylinders, trailing truck, and tender onto the IHC mechanism (which I seem to recall also has the long-frame Baker valve gear of the Big Six). At least one commercial custom builder will do this for you for a price; links follow:
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/BOSteamPower.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/bigsixfix.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/howtoorder.htm
http://eddystonelocomotives.com/orderform20.htm
Alternately, you could just go with double-headed 2-8-2s. That's what the B&O used east of Brunswick, Md. because of the short turntable at the Riverside roundhouse in Baltimore. Bigger power did go there, including EM-1 2-8-8-4s for overhauls, but did not run there on a regular basis because to turn the longer power required the use of a wye track, and that in turn tied up a part of the main line! On the other hand, why not improve operating efficiency with bigger steam power? After all, a proper railroad uses black locomotives that pull nice long trains and burn West Virginia coal!
Thats what I did to my two Rivarossi Big 6's (http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/Bo6204.jpg) and i put on a Bachmann spectrum tender. swapping the ineternal board with the IHC.
Quote from: jonathan on April 07, 2010, 05:23:24 PM
I see ebay is offering a Rivarossi 2-10-2 and a Mallet. They both look nice. I haven't joined the ebay shoppers of the world. Still make me nervous... If I saw 'em at a train show, I'd snap 'em up in a heartbeat.
I got my 2-8-8-0 at the GSMTS for $160, seemed resonable and i'm afraid to run it to much because i dont wanna handel it to much!
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/bo7165.jpg)
Jonathan
Heres a B&O mountain i did using a spectrum heavy, resembles the ones B&O got from the B&M
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/Bo6250.jpg)
an here is a shot of IHC's 2-10-2, its got great pulling power and speed control, just lacks detailing.
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/bo6185.jpg)
From the grand to the--well, let's say it was not one of B&O's bigger engines (linked from the Smaller Locomotives thread; under a request and response about internal combusion power):
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_bo25.jpg
Not sure, but the location looks like Riverside Roundhouse in Baltimore; that's the city this was assigned to.