I've been after a Lincoln Funeral Car by AHM/Rivarossi .
I saw one at a train show for $90! I've seen em on ebay go for as high as $200.
I finally won one this week for $62(that includes S&H)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270572234544&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
Did i spend too much? It says pocher but i'm sure only AHM/Rivarossi did those.
It was not too much if you really wanted it.
Look at it this way:
There are certain things we all want, including myself, that we are willing to pay too much for. The reasons are different for all of us. It's not a question of value or worth. There are certain things you want in order to complete your collection. No one can answer why we want to collect things. It's just stuff after all. Still, it fills a void, or provides some kind of satisfaction.
My small collection needs certain things, or it won't be 'finished'.
If you are in a business frame of mind, then you are looking to buy low and sell high. We collectors tend not to look at it this way. I don't intend to set up a booth anytime soon.
Sorry to get all philisophical.
My two cents (or nonsense) are now deposited. Enjoy your new treasure!
Regards,
Jonathan
I was just wanting to make sure I didn't spend too much considering its listed as FAIR condition. Looking at the pics I should beable to fix her up as new. I also recently just got some more of the con-cor old time coaches to paint up for my dogs Funeral train that I only have finished the loco for. The train will consist of a Baggage car, 2 Open air cars(1 will be used as a "coffin car" and will be switched out on "bad weather" days with a coffin coach which will have a combine interior with a coffin at one end) and 2 - 3 Coaches(If i can find my other bachmann coach body which should fit the rivarossi/con-cor frames)
all the concor cars come with interiors.
yeah I would say 200 would be a little steep but not if you really WANT it
I often say one of two things to my kids when they are contemplating a purchase.
1. If someone offered you a Ferrari for $15,000, that would be a great deal, but you still couldn't afford it!
2. I COULD pay $10 for a gallon of milk, but I WONT.
As others have said, there is really no such thing as "too much" if you really want it and can afford it.
Congrats on your score!
value is a sunjective thing. that said, i can't see myself paying that much for ANYthing by AHM......while i am not familiar with this particular item, most of the stuff they put out was pretty bad even by the standards of the 1970s. locomotives with little detail that ran like slot cars, freight cars that needed at least as much in parts sunk into them as the car itself listed for, just to make a decent runner out of them. this is the stuff that gave HO train sets a bad name.
Like Jeff, I wouldn't normally go in for anything from AHM in that era simply because so much better material is out there now, but this car is unusual, and your only other alternative would be to scratchbuild it.
In my opinion it's a bit extravagant, but not excessively so given its condition (which, from the photo, is far better than most other things I've seen that are that old), provided you're not going into bankruptcy or going hungry or something (which is getting a bit common these days).
Real extravagance is brass engines, especially some that are in the 4-digit range.
By any chance, have you checked out the "Early-Time Kits" thread? There are some links in there to craftsman models that are a little tougher than average, but some are for prototypes from the 19th century, and might be something you could use.
Let us know if you're satisfied with its condition when you get it.
Quote from: jward on May 09, 2010, 04:27:57 PM
value is a sunjective thing. that said, i can't see myself paying that much for ANYthing by AHM......while i am not familiar with this particular item, most of the stuff they put out was pretty bad even by the standards of the 1970s. locomotives with little detail that ran like slot cars, freight cars that needed at least as much in parts sunk into them as the car itself listed for, just to make a decent runner out of them. this is the stuff that gave HO train sets a bad name.
I own a bunch of AHM/Rivarossi things, and thier OT freight cars are very decent(if you think about it, I think Bachmanns toolings are copies of the AHM/Rivarossi toolings.
I thought about scratch building the car, but i couldn't think of how to mount all 4 trucks without two not turning.
I own several AHM and Rivarossi locos, happy with em all(tho some have been converted onto other chassis mostly due to the gears and all being abused and torn to shreds)
I hope to have this car by the end of the week.
Having four trucks swivel is not a big deal. You just use something called a span bolster. It's a seperate beam-like structure that connects with the center of each truck at the ends, and is attached to the car in its center, with swivel capabilities at all three locations. You'll see this on your Lincoln car when you get it, or you can see it on an Athearn 4-truck flat.
The diagram in this article for an American rail-mounted 14.5" Navy rifle (which would be used for either coastal defense or as a seige gun) from what looks like the World War I era shows span bolsters connecting two six-wheel trucks at each end.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/14_inch_50_caliber_railway_gun_Mk_I_right_elevation_diagram.jpeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_bolster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heavy_duty_flat.jpg
Hope this helps, and hope the car is what you hope for, too (although I have to admit I would change out wheels and couplers--Kadees and metal wheels have spoiled me!)
the couplers are definatly being changed out, tho to EZ mates not kadee's
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on May 07, 2010, 10:04:28 AM
I've been after a Lincoln Funeral Car by AHM/Rivarossi .
I saw one at a train show for $90! I've seen em on ebay go for as high as $200.
I finally won one this week for $62(that includes S&H)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270572234544&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
Did i spend too much? It says pocher but i'm sure only AHM/Rivarossi did those.
I remember seeing that listing! I usually follow these funeral car listings just to see what the final price turns out to be. I have two of them myself, one purchased brand new in the 1970s and held onto ever since, the other bought on eBay--from a seller who didn't really know what he had so that it wasn't listed under AHM/Rivarossi. One lives in my display case, the other gets run behind a couple of Virginia & Truckee passenger cars.
Are you aware that, based on the picture, the car is missing its smoke jacks? There should be one at each end of the car, on opposite sides.
I'm not really sure about this, but I think Pocher may have manufactured the old-time rolling stock for Rivarossi, which was marketed in the U.S. by AHM.
I share your view of AHM/Rivarossi old-time rolling stock. Personally I think the AHM freight cars are better looking than Bachmann's version--though not as nice as MDC/Roundhouse's old-timers. The Bachmann old-time passenger cars have always struck me as some sort of knock-off of the cars AHM/Rivarossi made beginning in the late 1970s. Con-Cor's cars are also identical.
The late (red box) versions of the Rivarossi old-timer 4-4-0s are outstanding engines. They look great and run beautifully. I have several. I even bought one that was "cosmetically challenged" but was assured to be a good runner in order to swap an IHC "Jupiter" superstructure onto the Rivarossi running gear. I figured that would work, and it did.
Just as a point of prototype fidelity, the original Lincoln car almost certainly had link-and-pin couplers, like most everything else from that Civil War era. Janney didn't patent his knuckle coupler design until 1873. If I were going to have the model solely as a display piece, I might put on the link-and-pins. If you're going to run it on your RR, then go ahead and use the EZ Mates.
got the car today, all in all its in pretty decent shape. Gotta figure out how to mount couplers to it without body mounting them(though i may have to probably use elmers glue as the train car wont be under much haul)
also it says Pocher made in italy....so i assume its a rivarossi car.
I haven't even seen one of these cars in probably 40 years, much less ever had one apart, so I can't really claim any familiarity with them, but from your comments about having to glue couplers in (and not body mounting them) suggests the couplers are Rivarossi's unusual horn-hook jobs.
Kadee (the coupler people) have an extensive set of charts for coupler conversions, some of which go back a long way. Your particular car isn't in the list, but I am going to guess the couplers are mounted in the ends of the span bolsters, like the talgo-type trucks used on regular passenger cars by this firm. Kadee offers parts for these talgo trucks, and I suspect this might be something you can use. I also suspect that your couplers might work with Kadee's mounting gear.
Links are enclosed for your perusal; let us know if this looks like something that can be used. With the internet, it's almost a sure bet someone else will either have the information you need, or your material will help someone else with a similar challenge.
http://www.kadee.com/conv/holist.pdf
http://www.kadee.com/conv/ho.htm
http://www.kadee.com/conv/hocc2.htm
I'm guessing the ends of the span bolsters look something like this, but don't take my word for it; check the other conversion instructions, particularly for the other passenger cars, there is a very good chance I'm wrong about this. I haven't even seen one of these things in decades, and never had the chance to take one apart.
http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ahm31.pdf
Tell us how this turns out.
I"m just guessing, but it may be possible to use Kadee Talgo trucks to replace your trucks and couplers.
--D
i wish it would be that east....but the trucks are rivited in. not screwed or the plastic thing. and by glue the couplers in i ment glue on coupler boxes onto the undercarrige. I've done it before but with the Con-Cor/Rivarossi coaches.
heres one of the coaches i body mounted the couplers on...
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/CAROL2.jpg)
PS the decals were made by me and the coaches were painted by me ;D
B&O-
Those look like perfectly servicable couplers, and a handsome model to boot.
--D
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on May 13, 2010, 09:07:48 AM
heres one of the coaches i body mounted the couplers on...
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/CAROL2.jpg)
PS the decals were made by me and the coaches were painted by me ;D
Tell you what, I think those Con-Cor/Rivarossi coaches are close enough for government work to that coach in the B&O Museum.
you talking about the two that got smashed? the baggage car appears to be fixable, coach 1 is destroyed, coach 2 is warped(was in the pass car shops when the roof collapsed on the roundhouse).
Sounds like that's what he means.
Any chance we can see a photo of the funeral car? Any chance we can see what the span bolster and drawbar arrangement look like?
Found some other material on this car, including shots of a large-scale model under construction.
http://lincolnfuneraltrain.com/
http://canteenbooks.com/Building_Lincoln's_Funeral_Car.htm
http://canteenbooks.com/Building_Lincoln's_Funeral_Car-pg2.htm
http://canteenbooks.com/index.htm
http://canteenbooks.com/site_map.htm
Enjoy.
Heres some pics
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0415.jpg)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0416.jpg)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0417.jpg)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0418.jpg)
Besides the missing stacks, thats the only really noticable damage to the car.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0419.jpg)
Underbody and truck mounting...note the rivets....
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/DSCF0420.jpg)
Rivet on the coupler arm. due to past experiance with a drill, i'll probably just cut the coupler off from the box up and body mount a coupler box. For those that don't know while working on another hobby of mine(painting custom monster trucks in 1:64 scale) i was trying to clear out the rivet hole on a chassis as part of a rivet got suck in the hole and as soon as i turned the drill on the dislodge the piece the drill slipped and drilled a 1/4 by 1/4 deep hole in my hand, seperating a nerve and doing other damage. I lost feeling in half of my middle finger.
PS you can see the coaches for my dogs funeral train in the background
OOPS! I just realied i posted the same pic.....
fixed the pics, donno how i managed to post the same pic 6 times......
Here is a photo of a funeral car I an working on. I just made a simple span bolster for the trucks. Remove the present car bolster and insert a purchased span bolster. The trucks are arch bar and not prototypical for the era. Bitter Creek sells truck and car parts are more prototypical.
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Misc/Funeralcar.jpg)
Rich
Well, B&ORRFan, that arrangement is partially what I thought it would be, and partially weird.
The part I expected was that the car would use span bolsters, and it does. The part that's weird is the coupling arrangement at the outer ends of the span bolsters, with a drawhead that drops very low and what looks like a custom-manufactured offset shank horn hook coupler! Having those trucks riveted in is unusual, too; how are you supposed to work on something like this when the parts are assembled permanently with rivets of this size, and in steel? What were the designers at Pocher thinking?
It's after 11:00 PM here, and my mind is tired from other things. I'll try to get back later and see what's available for replacement gear. At least it looks like the span bolsters are screwed into the car body, and rivets weren't used there!
This guy might have suitable parts. He has body bolsters and a span bolster.
Also maybe proper trucks.
The downside, lead castings.
You can make your own span bolsters out of 1/16 inch thick brass, aluminum or copper clad PC board.
I use the PC board because I had it on hand.
Couplers are Kadee old time 711 couplers which or more to scale than horn hook or Kadee #5.
All my old time cars, the 711 couplers are attached with a small dab Walther's Goo on the coupler and body. Wait about a minute and press into place.
http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/TRUCKS.html
Rich
I forgot to menchon that i have body mounted the couplers in a kadee 242 coupler box with an ezmate coupler in it. just a tad higher then the con-cor coupler height , probably 1/4 of the coupler is above the other.
On people wanting to bash the Funeral Car:
If you not a stickler for detail, start with a Roundhouse/MDC Overland coach in CP or some kind of Tuscan type color. Remove the roof, and build a new one. The Funeral car had a wedding cake clerastory, so all you have to do is throw a piece of styrene on top, drop a second thicker piece on top, and then another of the first one, and you have a new roof.
Remove the underbody detail, and then take a second set of Roundhouse trucks, and with a piece o styrene leftover from the roof, build a tounge that is plastic bonded to the inside truck, and either
1) tot he second truck, with a center crew into the floor
2) g the easy route, and allow the inside truck to simply swivel around the plastic molded top disk of the regualr roundhose truck. You might need a strike plat on the bottom of the coach for this though, but it's much easier than trying to do a whole new hole setup.
String bunting along the top and bottom of the windows. I spraypainted tissue, but the black pantyhose will do too. WHen you mount it, I reccomend plastic weld or supergling to a strip of stryrene, small enough to not show, but provde some rigidity. It also covers the pre-applied road name quite nicel,y without having to strip the whole car down.
Lastly, place the presidential eagle, or a representation thereof, over the car number with cardstock.
The finished model will look something liek this: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/TitanXP/Lincoln%20Car/100_29232.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/TitanXP/Lincoln%20Car/100_2926.jpg)
The whole car ends up about 3 windows too long. I dun care that much, I alwyas favored effect. You can kinda see the swing arm poking out in the second pic.
Personally, yes I think 68 is a bit much for that car. But then, I don't have one. And actually, the one pictured went to a friend as a gift.
Took a look at the Bitter Creek parts site; what's featured are a bunch of parts that used to be made by Red Ball (going to have to link this into the Early-Time Kits thread!) If you were going in for the truck replacement route, T-22 looks like it would be your type (despite what the caption says about "1880").
I think your proposal to body-mount the couplers is the best and simplest, and it looks like that's what the prototype had. Use styrene or wood shims or spacers to get the coupler height down for a closer match; matched coupler heights greatly improve operating reliability. And I would definitely change out those wheels with what look like pizza-cutter flanges if you plan to run the car; again, this is for operational reliability.
http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/lincoln/hebelongstotheages/ExhibitObjects/LincolnFuneralCar.aspx
Enlarged image (warning--may time out by the time you see it, if so, just enlarge at the link above)
http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/lincoln/hebelongstotheages/ExhibitObjects/LincolnFuneralCar.aspx?Enlarge=true&ImageId=9f919a4b-2f63-4022-868a-5384f915b78d%3afe22b805-477b-48fe-9b53-487e4de25eb8%3a138&PersistentId=1%3a9f919a4b-2f63-4022-868a-5384f915b78d%3a10&ReturnUrl=%2fExhibitions%2flincoln%2fhebelongstotheages%2fExhibitObjects%2fLincolnFuneralCar.aspx
Those missing ventilators at the ends of your model are visible in the photo and somehow look familiar. Did anyone offer them, or something similar, as a detail part?
http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/ohiopix/Image.cfm?ID=5553
http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/ohiopix/Image.cfm?ID=4974&criteria=&start=1
http://www.mrlincolnandnewyork.org/inside.asp?ID=29&subjectID=2
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/news/train.htm
http://www.kinglyheirs.com/Palmer/Lincoln01.html
Not the funeral car, but still an interesting vehicle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_(Pullman_car)
OK, now for what Jonathan calls a "homework assignment" (but which is better than any homework you ever got): I highly recommend "The American Railroad Passenger Car" by John White (former curator of the Transportation Department of the Smithsonian; the book has a considerable section on this car), and "The President Travels by Train," by Bob Withers. Both should be available through your library or interlibrary loan service.
Have fun!
Here is a photo of the setup I will use. This is from a 16 wheel 36 foot flatcar but I am using the same for the passenger car. I used the KISS principle since some of the underside will not be seen. I am using thin basswood for the body bolster as I did in the flatcar. The span bolster is 1/16 inch thick PC board drilled and tapped for 2-56 screws. I use a #2 wood screw to attached the span bolster to the wood body bolster on the underside of the car.
The only rub is, some trucks have a different height where the body bolster sits on the truck. I bought a appropriate set of trucks but they were somewhat higher at that point than the Kadee trucks I finally used. I replace the wheels with all metal wheels. Much better running.
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Flat%20car/Spanbolsterwithtrucks.jpg)
Rich
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/Lincolncoupler.jpg)
How its mounted, you can see where the original mounting was on the bar below the box
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/funeral/Coupled.jpg)
Diffrence in hiehgt, its not real noticable anymore, the coupler hangs down just enough for a secure couple.
Ah, the virtues of simplicity--especially when they work out right!
Congratulations!
And keep the old parts--who knows, someday somebody may regard your car as an antique to restore!
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on May 14, 2010, 04:01:46 PM
you talking about the two that got smashed? the baggage car appears to be fixable, coach 1 is destroyed, coach 2 is warped(was in the pass car shops when the roof collapsed on the roundhouse).
Quote from: J3a-614 on May 14, 2010, 09:05:51 PM
Sounds like that's what he means.
Yes, that is what I meant. :)
Quote from: J3a-614 on May 15, 2010, 11:26:33 PM
Having those trucks riveted in is unusual, too; how are you supposed to work on something like this when the parts are assembled permanently with rivets of this size, and in steel? What were the designers at Pocher thinking?
Maybe that nobody would be meddling with the car after they bought it? ???
I don't know if this other project is "vaporware" or not, but the firm involved has built a replica 19th century locomotive that was a tremendous hit at the rail festival at Oswosso, so maybe. . .
http://leviathan63.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leviathan63/
Look what one of the future projects is!
http://leviathan63.com/projects.html
anyone have or seen this book?
http://canteenbooks.com/The_Lincoln_Funeral_Train.htm
I just ordered on on friday, looks promosing on what I been trying to find for a while now. B&O's version of the train so i can model it. Been trying to find pics of it for about a year maybe two. B&O musuem wants to charge me $20 just to look in thier archives of photos for information on it. and they wont even tell me if they have any. if they told me they did i'd gladly pay that much to look through it. but if they didn't waste of $20 for me. and I'd find that book interesting eather way looking at the preview pages.
Pocher is Pocher, not related to Rivarossi in the least beyond both companies' products being imported by AHM. Some Pocher items were most recently imported by IHC; I had one of the engines and never even took it out of the box to see if it was still Pocher or perhaps the dies were sold to Mehano (was one of those, buy dirt cheap at one train show, reprice and put out and sell at the next show things).
So the dies to this car may still exist, but anything related to IHC is up in the air with the bankruptcy of Mehano and the illness of the guy who runs IHC.
There are drawings, I think O scale in the Model Railroader Feb 1995 by Wayne Wesolowski
Abraham Lincoln's Funeral Train.
I was looking at the drawing's recently.
Might be a little info in the below link.
http://tinyurl.com/29rpumh
Rich
If anybody is interested, I noticed another Lincoln car listing on eBay this morning when I did my daily check. I'm sorry I don't have a link, but it should be easy enough to find it. I found it by accident.
I was in the HO listings, and I went to the last category, "Other," at the bottom of the list, and did a search for "passenger." The car isn't identified as the Lincoln car, just as a Pocher passenger car.
Both smoke jacks are present on the roof, but the car seems to be missing one platform end railing. I suppose both railings could be replaced with brass. That would probably improve the look of the car.
This I cannot believe.
Somebody has a listing on eBay right now that includes three--THREE!--of the Lincoln funeral cars.
(I would post a link, but whenever I try, it keeps "linking" to my own "Watch List," which I don't think I want to do. I'm "watching" because I'm curious to see the final selling price for the batch of five cars that includes the three Lincoln cars. I don't intend to bid. I don't sell on eBay, and I have two Lincoln cars already. I don't need three more. The listing appears under Toys & Hobbies > Model Railroads & Trains > HO Scale > AHM/Rivarossi.)
HI bolto-r-r-man, you are lucky to find one in any condition today, I had to sell my layout -30 years ago. and being a Lincoln collector that was one thing I hated to let go, but, a year or so back I got a call from the man that bought my layout asking if I would like to buy it all back. well when I went to clinch the deal not only was all my things there but over the years his kid bought him things for his layout that never got bult [2 big pickup truck loads] when I got going through the haul I found my 16 wheel Lincoln car STILL-IN-THE-BOX, I watched them come and go on the bay thinking should I ?? well I did, now have two, and glad of it. my original is in the box in my special glass show case to be looked at every April 15 th from this past april on it will make a run around the layout-- to me they are a special reminder of a great man . The one I got from the bay I installed link & pin couplers, and took a early look alike and bult a monitor roof, they make a neat duo behind a 4-4-0. Grz
some guy at the local model train show has had one for sale for quiet a while now, but I can't see spending $95 on one. though he just recently lowered his price by $10 i do believe.
I've fixed mine up a bit, added on roof vents body mounted couplers.
Balto-
I'm not sure if you mean a Precision Scale car from the Lincoln funeral train but, if you do,
buy it as fast as you can. Those sell for hundreds of dollars.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on December 26, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
Balto-
I'm not sure if you mean a Precision Scale car from the Lincoln funeral train but, if you do,
buy it as fast as you can. Those sell for hundreds of dollars.
-- D
I'm talking about the AHM one.
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on December 27, 2013, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: Doneldon on December 26, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
Balto-
I'm not sure if you mean a Precision Scale car from the Lincoln funeral train but, if you do,
buy it as fast as you can. Those sell for hundreds of dollars.
-- D
I'm talking about the AHM one.
To quote Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."