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Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: J3a-614 on September 07, 2011, 10:07:12 PM



Title: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 07, 2011, 10:07:12 PM
Was looking for something else, and came across a photo of No. 35 (0-6-6-0 with tender booster) from John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid--and it was a most curious photo, showing blistered paint, warped parts, and other damage--

Turns out some of John Allen's locomotives were salvaged after the fire in his house--and were stored in a satchel or bag for the last 40 years!  Links to the site that documents this, and the photos of the contents, below:

http://www.gdlines.com/index.html

http://www.gdlines.com/The_Satchel.html

http://www.gdlines.com/Satchel/album/index.html

For those too young to remember, this was a famous model railroad from the late 1940s to the early 1970s, built by a fellow whom many, if not most, would consider an artist.  John Allen had both the talent and a bit of money to build a fascinating model railroad that looked spectacular and also featured realistic operations.  It may have had what would now be called "fantasy" elements, but it all still looked good and featured many things such as special lighting effects that are now commercially available, but which required engineering and scratchbuilding in Allen's time.

Sadly, this model railroad was destroyed in a house fire shortly after Allen's death--but these models were salvaged out of the house, and have been hidden away until now.  It's a bittersweet thing for us old-timers to see--and yet, even in the death of the G&D, we have pretty amazing "weathering" patterns on these models, actually looking quite realistic at representing locomotives that have been in a roundhouse fire, as was the case for Reading 2101 in the late 1970s!   


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jonathan on September 08, 2011, 06:35:33 AM
Thanks, J3a.

I was not aware anything was salvaged from this famous model railroad.  I am a John Allen fan.  He was into the artistic aspect of modeling.  Standing in the layout room must have been something to behold.

Even though those locomotives appear beyond rebuilding, one can still see some of the great innovations Allen incorperated, like pick up shoes, superdetailing, etc.  It's bittersweet to see these burned out relics.

Regards,

Jonathan


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 08, 2011, 08:14:50 AM
john allen's influence on the hobby is deep. profound and long lasting. in his day he was like george selios, pelle seborg and tony koester all rolled into one.  his was a railroad which could have been. but never was. it was one of the few cases in this hobby where a person who knew railroad practices intimately was also a great builder of scenery.

as some testament to his influence on the hobby, one of his layouts is one of the most published track plans for small layouts. this is the one with the twice around mainline which crosses over itself in the front of the layout, with the short mining branch to the rear.....
 

anybody who wishes to see his layout in all its glory should visit:
http://www.gdlines.com


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 08, 2011, 12:17:09 PM
I belong to a yahoo group called GandD and I'm a frequent follower of that group. The story of the "satchel" was all the locomotives got put in a bag to be photographed and sent back to Linn Westcott but due to a series of miscommunication and photos never being released the engines sat in the attic until someone brought them up at a local convention and a guy said he had them and there you have it.


For those of you who don't know me, I study John Allen's art and work religiously, you might even call me a yahoo. I have a TON of the MDC replica's(understatement) that's planned for use as rolling stock on my railroad, you can even spot them in my recent posts
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMAG0056.jpg)
^a G&D Bulline car made by Athearn being pulled by a brass mountain---> if John had been alive for these engines release in brass, I certainly wouldn't doubt he would've had a couple, the characteristics they share with John's #34 4-10-0 is very close

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3703.jpg)
some modified coaches with vestibules
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3704.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/34.png)
a still ongoing project for me, I have to buy a NWSL gearbox simply because the original mechanics of the decapod chassis is too weak
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_4035.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_4038.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_4046.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_4047.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/34-2.png)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/34crop.jpg)


Also take note that in the picture he also used brass pickup shoes for his electrical contacts. If you've seen the video or even look hard at the pictures, they're practically invisible

There's also a second edition book out at micro-mark of Model Railroading with John Allen and it's pricey, but trust me it's well worth the money tenfold

To date there are only 2 locomotives that survived the fire intact, #43 which was probably one of John's most recent PFM purchase an AT&SF 2-8-4
(http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Goodies/Photo_Scans/Locomotives/GD_43_full.jpg)

and  #34 which is on display at the Model Railroad museum in Sacramento CA:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/gd34kalmbachb.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/gd34kalmbacha.jpg)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 08, 2011, 12:54:11 PM
for me john allen was one of my two big influences who weren't family members.

john allen's g&d represented the railroad i wish i'd seen in real life. both the model, and as a real life full sized railroad.

allen mcclelland's v&o (the first incarnation, the second layout was a huge disappointment) represented places i'd actually been to, and watched trains at. the scenes could have been locations on the real clinchfield, or c&o, or western maryland.

i know it makes the purists cringe, but i often wonder what the g&d would have looked like as a small diesel powered line set in the mid 1970s.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Len on September 08, 2011, 01:18:19 PM
If you look closely at the diagram of the original G&D note the majority of the curves are 14" & 16" radius, with a bit of 18" & 20" radius here and there. So much for "18in radius minimums."  ;D

Len


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 08, 2011, 01:30:30 PM
that was only the original plan. also look what was run on that part of the layout. in all the photos, i don't see anything longer than a 40' boxcar on there. when the original layout was incorporated into the larger one as a branch line, it was home to geared locomotives like shays and heislers, which were designed to take sharp curves.

the mainline's sharpest curve was at sims loop and was 26" radius. the mallets and 10 coupled steamers took that curve with ease.

another thing john did was gear his locomotives down so that it was impossible to run them at high speeds. this is something i did myself in the 1980s when most of my locomotives were athearn. befoer dcc regearing was the best way to speed match. a higher gear ratio meant that differences in motor speed were reduced.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 08, 2011, 01:38:36 PM
If you look closely at the diagram of the original G&D note the majority of the curves are 14" & 16" radius, with a bit of 18" & 20" radius here and there. So much for "18in radius minimums."  ;D

Len


He never did run any larger power on the original over and under loop, from what I've seen in photos



ALSO some videos from a couple guys that replicate some of his work. I can't find any original footage of John's despite my video upload on facebook of #34...but here's some really good replication shots:

http://youtu.be/0xQi2tTfndw

http://youtu.be/_jo6-o0xxCI

http://youtu.be/oP7Pu9JvvxQ

http://youtu.be/pxa9S-oTd8E

http://youtu.be/iU2SnoopJDQ

http://youtu.be/QJ4_m6RLGGk

http://youtu.be/T4kv9jNpi3w

http://youtu.be/c6P_AecZ_NI

http://youtu.be/ti-fJfTHkm4

http://youtu.be/dyK6KcXvC18

http://youtu.be/KxZDzb6FsWk

http://youtu.be/QXoHCQU4E_Y

http://youtu.be/-Htxug8sKsI

http://youtu.be/WGvy5Pbgsco


pretty darn close to how it looked


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ebtnut on September 08, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
I was fortunate enough to meet John on several occasions at NMRA events, and got to visit the G&D just about a year before he passed.  The layout truly was something to behold.  I wish I had had the opportunity to attend an operating session, but I lived on the other coast and just had the one day to visit.  His layout and his modeling were touchstones for the hobby from the late 1940's through the 1960's.  I believe he won Model Railroader's first modeling contest with his now-famous 2-stall enginehouse that had pigeons on the roof and appropriate weathering, which was almost unheard of in that time period.  

The original G&D layout was about 3 1/2 x 5 feet or so.  John worked with Varney on their ads, and used the layout to feature Varney models (again properly painted and weathered).  Those ads usually appeared on the full rear cover of MR.  The somewhat expanded version of the layout was incorprated into the big layout, operating essentially as a branch line.  


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 08, 2011, 01:46:54 PM
he also did ads for Pacific Fast Mail as well using the final layout as the set


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 08, 2011, 02:11:17 PM
for what it's worth, i've seen plans of the original g&d expanded to 4x8 to use 18"r curves. i've also seen the plan in the book 101 track plans for model railroaders. it's been done as a plastic layout form (just add track) in n scale. there was even an o guage tinplate version published a little while back in classic toy trains. who'd have thought tinplate had anything in common with john allen?


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 08, 2011, 03:23:12 PM
at the last springfield show in january they had a prize drawing for one, I don't remember if it had EZ-Track or atlas but it was made to 18" radius but it would've been nice to have won it :p


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 08, 2011, 08:24:38 PM
Rye, those video clips from DG Locos (and we can guess his interest from that tag!) are amazing!  It's seeing something you don't think you should be seeing, although it is not quite up to the original (and how could it be?)  Of course, it is also a work in progress. . .a change in lighting might help. . .for some reason, Allen's road tended to photograph dark, or at least darker than what we often see for model photography today. . .no doubt the Wizard of Monterey had a reason for what he did. . .

Rye, I'm not totally familiar with Allen's loco roster, but did I see a second 4-10-0 in DG Loco's clips numbered 33?  Did Allen have a No. 33 of any type?  Did DG fill a gap in Allen's roster with a logical duplicate locomotive?  Normally locomotives ordered for a railroad of any size are not "one of a kinds," but of a class, at least on a road that had the luxury of buying new engines.  Even the little Ma & Pa would order engines in twos and threes.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 08, 2011, 08:37:28 PM
DG made a few extra engines for  "could have been" G&D locos. John never had a #33

but his roster was supposed to be secondhand locomotives from other railways modified for the Gorre and Daphetid route. It is said his engines were based around a prototype of Rock Island and Missouri Pacific, but I see a ton of ATSF and D&RGW prototype thrown in for taste.


As for the photos, he was an avid photographer and each photographer has his own style of lighting and so forth. My favorite technique is one used by George Selios which uses fluorescent and incandescents mixed and balanced together to give off a sunny and cloudy lighting tint, where it is not too yellow and not too white.


Those videos from what I remember is DG running on the Pine Ridge Railroad another member's layout from the yahoo group though I could be mistakened


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 08, 2011, 09:37:18 PM
Another link with other material on the Gorre:

http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/G&D_Files.htm

One of my favorite photos by Allen from the above site, a panned shot of No. 56 (a Bowser NYC K-11 mated with a Santa Fe tender):

http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RMC-19710200-046-300_70.jpg

Found another site, and a good looker, too (I bet all this is old hat to Rye):

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/G&D/page78.html


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 08, 2011, 10:33:22 PM
It turns out the house itself survived the fire, and is now occupied by another family:

http://coolstuffstudios.net/johnallen.asp

J. Ward made a comment about what the GD would have looked like updated to the 1970s with diesel power; the prototype modeler in me says it wouldn't have survived that long, not with the back-breaking 4% grades and thin territory, looking in many ways like the narrow-gauge world of the D&RGW.  (I recall that Allen himself said the inspiration was actually the standard-gauge Colorado Midland, looking as it might have in the late 1940s).

A struggling first-generation diesel G&D might be plausible, though; the inspiration for this view might come from the New York, Ontario & Western, with an aging fleet of FTs, F3s, and end-cab switchers. 

Alternately, what about backdating the GD?  I am thinking in this case to a more prosperous line in the 1920s.  It would still have at least one Alco (NYC design) 4-6-2--actually, I imagine it as several, as this would be one series of engines the road bought new about 10 years earlier--but these machines would be black and burn coal.  No red streamliners in this time!  The road in this era would have more in the way of wooden cars, both freight and passenger, and a somewhat more logical looking loco roster (this is before the road ran into really hard times and before it went into the second-hand market for replacement engines). 

In reality, I was playing mind games with the idea of a recreation or partial recreation of the GD myself, and trying to figure out how to build a roster from common (non-brass) engines.  I figured I never could afford brass (and for that matter, I still can't). 


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 09, 2011, 01:35:12 AM
my thought was that it probably would have looked something like the old western maryland out of elkins, wva. supposing the g&d had held on to steam as long as they could, they'd have dieselized in the 1960s just as the first wave of diesels were being retired.

most of the f units were used as trade ins to emd during this period. that would have been the ft's and f3s mostly. whatever got traded in to emd got scrapped under contract. so secondhand f units are not likely.

during this time ge was trying to geet a foothold in the market for larger locomotives. they were taking anything and everything in trade just to stay competitive, and ge was known to resell the traded in locomotives for use. this would bring up some intriguing possibilities...

with the steep grades the g&d would have wanted something known to lug. baldwins would have fit this category, and were some of the first locomotives the nig roads replaced. maybe a few former pennsy sharks would have made their way to the g&d? also known for their pulling power were alcos, particularly the rs3s. western maryland used many of their rs3s out of elkins where sharp curves and 3% grades were common. since there were many rs3s on the secondhand market during the 1960s and 1970s, it seems likely g&d would have picked up some. they'd have probably been interested in the 6 axle version of the rs3, the rsd5 as well. santa fe had a large fleet of those they were disposing of.

what you probably wouldn't have found on the g&d are emd products like gp7s and gp9s. most roads who had them kept theirs until the late 1970s at least. they were known to be simple and reliable, low maintainance units which would have cost alot more than alcos. the situation would be analogous to the used locomotive market to-day. you'll pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a gp38, but they can't give old ge's away. so somebody looking for a supply of motive power cheap would buy a bunch of say b23-7s, a few more than needed, and use the worst ones for parts.

i could see a few old locomotive hulks sitting around the roundhouse at great divide, missing hood doors and various parts as the shop forces scavanged them. it would make for some interesting modelling.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 09, 2011, 12:59:14 PM
diseasels?!?! BLASPHEMY!!!!!


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 09, 2011, 01:11:33 PM
it was once said that diesels were strong enough to pull a railroad out of bankruptcy. many a marginal road got saved by the lower costs of running and maintaining diesels.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Doneldon on September 09, 2011, 01:14:53 PM
J3a-

Diesels on the G&D? I think not.

John Allen's railroad (I had a chance to meet him and see his railroad many years ago when I lived in California as an early teen) had a funky, held together with chewing gum and rubber bands feel that just doesn't lend itself to something with as little personality as a diesel locomotive. (Sorry, diesel fans. I don't dispute their value to the railroads and the many super paint schemes they sport, but character they have not.) Even banged up, rusted out diesels would look out of place in a complex and visually rich environment like the old G&D. Where's the animation? Where's the life? And I don't mean prototype; I mean locos as living, breathing creatures.

Diesels on the G&D? Heresy! And I think John Allen would say the same. After all, he built the G&D long after the introduction of diesels so he did know about them. And he chose not to add them to his roster.
                                                                                            -- D


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 09, 2011, 01:25:21 PM
diesels? no character? you've obviously never seen a running u25b. or heard an rs3 idling. diesels may not ooze steam from every joint, but they all have their own personalities.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 09, 2011, 02:40:49 PM
you can't beat steam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyzzeMTXNaI :) diesels still won't cut the mustard for me. Remember a steam locomotive can pull any train it can start. The chassis alone is much more interesting if you don't have sound.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 09, 2011, 10:00:50 PM
"Diesels on the G&D? I think not."--Donaldon

Heck, I'm not the one who brought it up!  Blame J. Ward for that! :-)

Donaldon did make an interesting comment, though, about how diesels wouldn't fit in with the G&D.  What makes that so interesting is that I've seen prototype photos of very new diesels in the postwar environment of steam--and they stand out as if from another world!  The two photos I'm thinking of were of a Pere Marquette E-7 at a station in Chicago, and a set of Baldwin Baby-Faces on the Central of New Jersey.  Both are photos of new or very new diesels, perhaps on their first runs; both happen to be in variations of blue and yellow, a deep blue and light "maize" yellow on the PM E-unit, and a bright blue and bright orange scheme on the CNJ Baldwins.  Against a mostly black, soot-stained backdrop of an ancient train shed on the PM, and a mostly black, soot-stained industrial landscape in New Jersey, the respective units just seem to be glowing, particularly the CNJ units, with a bright orange and what to my eyes looked like an electric blue!

Looking like they wouldn't fit?  Oh my, there would be a prototype for that!

J. Ward commented that he thought the G&D would have been buying second-hand diesels.  That prototype modeler in me says the G&D would have either died in steam, or would have been able to scrape up enough money for some new diesels, ironically from EMD!  My guess is they would have been financed by General Motors Acceptance Corporation, or GMAC.  This was GM's financial arm, and most people associate it with automobile finance, but GMAC also financed more than one railroad's diesels in the postwar era.  I even think they financed a GP9 order for the Pennsylvania in about 1954, which was notable in that it was the first time in living memory that a year had gone by without the Pennsy ordering something from Baldwin.  Apparently the financial package was more than even the mighty Pennsy could resist (it was also having money problems at the time), and this failure to win an order from a long and loyal customer apparently was a factor in Baldwin leaving the locomotive business. 

What would a "new management" at the G&D buy?  My guess is that this road, with its low speeds and grades and curves would be heavy on road switchers, very likely going for six-axle types, such as EMD SD7s, Alco RSD-5s, Baldwin AS-616s, possibly even FM Train Masters.  The road might roster an FP-7 or two to handle passenger service, but like the Virginian, it could well be that passenger service would die with steam. 

The diesels would bring a big operating change to the D&G (both model and "prototype"), and that would be a lot of train consolidation.  The dispatcher would have hardly any work to do as very long trains by G&D standards would work their way over the line, with only the local freights to stay out of the way.  It could even be that the through trains would become locals despite their length (which would cause griping from the customers about slowed operations). 

These long trains, made possible by MU equipment, would really cut down on the number of train movements, but would introduce their own problems, including dealing with passing tracks that would now be almost universally too short.  There would also be the interesting problem of too many cars coming in at once to the notoriously congested facilities at Port--and doing so on a regular basis.

Another aspect of this is that according to one of the web pages listed, John Allen's original operating concept was for the G&D to be operated point-to-point from Great Divide to Gorre  over most of the line (this was never accomplished because a final bridge was never completed.)  The segment from Gorre to Great Divide via Cross Junction was to have represented the Southern Pacific!  This would have made the G&D a "bridge route" between two segments of the SP.  I don't know how practical this would have been (I seem to recall the turntable at Gorre as being on the short side), and I wonder what Allen would have used for SP power (hint--nothing as big as a Cab-Forward), but this does suggest an alternate diesel scenario, and that would be for the D&G to become part of the Southern Pacific.  Again, I imagine passenger service to already be gone, and the freight service is now handled by SP F-units, Geeps, and SDs.

All this also echoes the sentiments of Rye Guy, Donaldon, and myself, and that is that diesel era railroading is just not as interesting as the steam era was.  We not only lost steam, we also lost passenger trains, stations, water towers and coaling towers, roundhouses, and of course steam locomotives.

Still, there could be a bit of fun in this.  How do you think the G&D would have painted "its" diesels?         


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 09, 2011, 10:30:19 PM
i will take a stab at this.

g&d passenger locomotives were crimson red, freight ones were black. i see some combination of red and black as a reasonable assumption. i will go further and suggest a likely paint scheme would be that used by new haven on its later first generation diesels, black body with a red cab, and the g&d herald centered on the long hood in white.

had the g&d started to dieselize before about 1957, they may have had a better deal from one of the other builders than emd. emd's order books were filled from about 1947 until the mid 1950s, they weren't hurting for business. the other builders, particularly baldwin and fm were left with small orders from railroads who were unwilling to wait a year or two for emd to get to their order.

after 1957, most railroads were diesel powered, and the builders were hurting for business. had the g&d been in a position to order new locomotives at that time, i could see them ordering from emd and alco both. whether they'd have gone with 6 axle locomtives is another matter. at that time, 6 axle locomotives were considered "special duty" machines. the fleets of sd types that eventually ruled the mainlines were still in the future. given the winding and grade strewn route of the g&d, they'd have had to weigh the added tractive effort against the increased rail wear caused by the 6 axle trucks.

one thing i don't see on the g&d is high horsepower 4 axle locomotives, which were notoriously slippery. the g&d didn't need the extra horsepower as much as they needed the tractive effort. gp9s and gp18s would do fine for their purposes.


as for pennsy and baldwin......

like many roads, pennsy was finding out fast that baldwin locomotives were high maintainance. they'd bought heavily from baldwin in the 1940s, and those locomotives were showing their age by 1954. the centipedes and passenger sharks in particular were showing unsuitablilty for their intended long distance passenger train service. both classes were reassigned to specific areas where they could be monitored closely. the centipedes in particular wound up operating in helper service, shoving heavy trains over the mountain from altoona, pa where they were close to the juniata shop. even in this service they were a dismal failure, and were replaced by 6 axle alcos bought new for that service.

by 1954, the pennsy was undoubtedly reluctant to prop up a builder whose customers were deserting it in droves due to continuing reliability problems with its product.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Woody Elmore on September 10, 2011, 08:22:29 AM
I saw a video of a G&D  operating session at an NMRA convention years ago. It was quite a layout and operation.

His use of mirrors is something that we don't see a lot of today and he used Baker couplers - not realistic but they did their job very well.

Another pioneer was Frank Ellison. Ellison operated his O scale Delta Lines with schedules and timetables. I believe he was among the first to use a "fast clock." He also invented what he called "smiles"- these were not scale miles but train lengths. His book was once printed by Arco - a company that published how to do it books. I would love to see his book in print again.

Thanks all for the interesting John Allen comments.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 10, 2011, 09:34:09 AM
"G&D passenger locomotives were crimson red, freight ones were black. I see some combination of red and black as a reasonable assumption. I will go further and suggest a likely paint scheme would be that used by New Haven on its later first generation diesels, black body with a red cab, and the G&D herald centered on the long hood in white."--J. Ward

A good choice, especially if following a G&D after 1957 or so (if it "lived" that long); Jonathan, check out the preserved ex-B&O office car behind the locomotive:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=51283&nseq=40

An alternative, particularly for the units when new, or before a simplified paint scheme from 1957, would also be from the New Haven, which had orange (red on G&D) hoods and green (black) cabs:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=27471&nseq=46

Substitute crimson for the orange, black for the green, cut back on the stripes and maybe go with silver trucks, and the G&D would have high style for the passenger train--but would G&D use a unit with A-1-A trucks?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/lip/lip7570.jpg

http://static.pwrs.ca/product_images/71469_1.gif

How about this in crimson and silver?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HWerJmDgrO0/Tbds2-CPH4I/AAAAAAAADP4/Lfvouq9VBZc/s1600/3966270621_327b0ff04a.jpg

Substituting red for the yellow in the Virginian's style could be credible, too:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=357410&nseq=12

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=357292&nseq=13

An interesting aspect:  none of these units are painted in EMD schemes.  EMD had a styling department, and many roads that ordered their first diesels from EMD would have the paint scheme designed by EMD as well.  One example of an EMD scheme for road switchers was this classic, which would also be "appropriate" for the G&D:

B&O, in blue and yellow:

http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/Bachmann-Pages/BachPics/GP7/GP7-B&O.JPG

KCS, in black:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/9/9/3299.1187413200.jpg

Santa Fe used black and silver, with added safety stripes, and a herald in blue and silver:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1456/gp7d.jpg

Now, what would be an EMD scheme for those FP-7s, if G&D had gone that route?


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 10, 2011, 12:10:47 PM


Another pioneer was Frank Ellison. Ellison operated his O scale Delta Lines with schedules and timetables.

I have a Delta Lines boxcar in HO and it's one of my favorite cars amongst my freelance collection


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 10, 2011, 12:35:35 PM
hmmm. cab unit paint schemes....

how about bessemer & lake erie, with red replacing the orange, and white g&d logos replacing the butterflies....

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ble/ble708dsa.jpg

or maybe a version of frisco's old paint, with a red body and black striping,

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf5042ads.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf0019gea.jpg

and for more modern power, something like this:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=374131&nseq=5


as for a1a locomotives, given g&d's mountainous terrain, i doubt the added stability at speed of an a1a trucked locomotive would be much of an advantage where speeds would be low. and yet.....i could see them getting a bargain on some used pa's from one of the roads discontinuing passenger service.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 10, 2011, 03:01:53 PM
Interesting choices, J., and in more ways than one; all of those units are in EMD-designed factory schemes or variations of them, and the B&LE unit is one of a batch sold to the B&O!

For another variation of the EMD scheme used by the Frisco; the principle design elements are how the blue curves over the headlight, and also a "butter knife" effect on the sides.  This "butter knife" pattern was also used on earlier Northern Pacific passenger F units, and was part of the original pattern of the Erie's E units.  The B&LE unit also wears a variation of this element.  And note how the upper color of the B&LE unit dips to the headlight in the same curves and proportions of the grey upper colors of a B&O engine, and also the Wabash unit below:

http://images.topix.com/gallery/up-Q2TSL8HQR8UAMA0T.jpg

Here are some models of units in the Nothern Pacific scheme, featuring the "butter knife," the nose paint pattern was what was called the "pine tree," and was used by a number of other roads as well, courtesy of the stylists at EMD:

http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/033038/HO-CIL-2379-1-NP-Northern-Pacific-EMD-F3-A-B-A-Diesel-Set

Sometimes the "pine tree" was stretched out a bit, as on these NP FT units:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imlsdcc/4668973067/

An Erie unit, again illustrating the "butter knife" element:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/airport/3655705776/

Another EMD pattern was the "whiskers," which may have been inspired by the Pennsy;s GG-1 scheme.  This was used by Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Lehigh Valley, Denver & Rio Grande Western, and possibly others if my memory is right:

http://www.kinglyheirs.com/RailSiteLinksFiles/BostonMaineLocomotiveConwayScenicRailroad.jpg

http://www.zazzle.com/lehigh_valley_railroad_new_diesel_power_1950_mousepad-144454032059561336

http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/swh/swh5312.jpg

I'm a bit out of time for now (my wife has a "honey, do" list, and she's just a little impatient at the moment), but there were other "stock" design elements the EMD paint men used.  The result was that EMD paint schemes "looked right" in most cases, and interestingly, could also be adapted to other builders' units (i.e., Alco FA and PA units on the Lehigh Valley).  The paint schemes from the other builders also looked good, but tended to be different in overall style (think of the Alco-designed paint applied to NKP PAs), which is to be expected--the other builders had different designers, with different styles and tastes.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 10, 2011, 03:07:17 PM
This is for Rye:

Has anyone on that G&D discussion group you mentioned talked about a diesel G&D? 

What did the talk go like?

How angry did it get at the 'blasphemy" of diesels on the G&D?

:-)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 10, 2011, 03:22:25 PM
Hey, this looks like it could be a prototype for an EMD road switcher scheme for the G&D, incorporating red and black, with a stripe in the right place; the unit looks to be either an Army or NC&StL unit (note AAR type A switcher trucks):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dazon_blue/5763081433/

http://www.tvrail.com/resources/photos/72c6be855584927a192febb0d30567fb-m.jpg

Have fun.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Geared Steam on September 10, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
I had the opportunity to view some salvaged structures and artifacts last year from the G & D currently being displayed at the San Diego Model Railroad Museum.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOVtgxSDgI/AAAAAAAAAag/-G-7gz8q33E/s1600/IMG_0247.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOVt685bEI/AAAAAAAAAao/FTFHg2GvotM/s1600/IMG_0248.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOVucjfx-I/AAAAAAAAAaw/B_7OuB2cdKQ/s1600/IMG_0249.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOVupkWm6I/AAAAAAAAAa4/-9k-bB4aoKY/s1600/IMG_0250.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOXD9ZNHGI/AAAAAAAAAbA/g98KWiWBZQs/s1600/IMG_0251.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOXOjC4yZI/AAAAAAAAAbI/VEYfrnjD3Hg/s1600/IMG_0252.JPG)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TEOXW-ceqsI/AAAAAAAAAbY/YSajGoVU3uA/s1600/IMG_0254.JPG)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 11, 2011, 07:51:06 PM
Wow, more stuff!  Geared Steam, is there a story about how these items made it out?

J. Ward:  What might be your guess for switchers on a diesel-era G&D? I picture a classic end-cab job, like an EMD SW-9 or an Alco S-4 at Great Divide, but the options might expand at Port.  Such conventional switchers would work there, too, but I can't help but wonder if a GE 70-tonner, or perhaps a 70-tonner and a 44-tonner (one working the ferry, the other the industries) might also be logical choices.

Would the G&D have had use for a cow-and-calf set somewhere, perhaps on one of the local or branch jobs?  I seem to recall Lynn Wescott mentioning in The Book that someone did bring one over on occasion. . .

Continuing in this theme, what would the replacement for Jim Findley's Russian Decapod be on the connecting train from Findley's Tioga Pass?

Man, and to hear such talk coming from a steam fan like me. . .


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 11, 2011, 08:21:10 PM
Well looking at the heart breaking photos of the aftermath of the fire some elements of the layout did survive the initial inferno but not much, I'd imagine some things you see in the case were upstairs when the fire happened(it didn't burn the whole house down, it burned the basement ceiling/floor through literally destroying the layout)

Even #34 was in the fire judging from the present pics of it and the details missing but came out virtually unscathed except for the tender which I believe did not survive the fire whatsoever. John's engines were designed so you could interchange the tenders amongst the engines


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 11, 2011, 08:59:41 PM
keeping in mind a possible mid to late 1950s start for dieselization,  i'd say emd sw1200 or alco t6 switchers would be appropriate. there were no sw1200 or sw900 cow and calf sets built. had the yards been dieselized first, and a few years earlier, tr5 (sw9) or tr6 (sw8) cow and calf sets would be appropriate, or alco s4s. yes, according to "the book" one of the g&d operators had a tr6 cow and calf which john liked enough to use in operating sessions. so... there is a precedent here.

had the g&d opted to buy secondhand in the early 1960s, fm h10-44s were available cheap, as were baldwin vo1000s.

for the docks at port, a ge 44 tonner. the nig railroads were disposing of these by the mid 1050s as they didn't have many jobs they were useful at. pennsy even had a few equipped with MU, so maybe a pair of those for the daphetid branch.

incidentally, i see those switchers in a paint scheme similar to boston & maine's switchers:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bm/bm119h.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bm/bm1117g.jpg

for the tioga pass, i really don't know what their situation was, or how closely affiliated with the g&d they were. russian decapods were quite obsolete even for steam engines by the 1950s. so the tp may have been forced to dieselize earlier. if so, they may have had a roster similar to the lehigh & new england or tennessee central. a few fa1s, with the bulk of the roster rs2s and rs3s, and a few odd switchers. i think the fa1s would have been used on the run through trains with the g&d, which according to "the book" numbered 4 a day.

it is interesting to note that on the m&stl, an rs1 was considered the diesel equivalent of a 2-8-2. but you don't find rs1s used often in heavy duty service, so i don't see them climbing the sierras on the tioga pass.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: RAM on September 11, 2011, 09:20:59 PM
Most railroads were almost dieselized by 1952.  John did have a high hood Alco switcher'


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 11, 2011, 09:37:17 PM
Most railroads were almost dieselized by 1952.  John did have a high hood Alco switcher'

John had shots taken for varney diesels for his ads and took photos rarely of visiting power, but John didn't own a diesel


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 11, 2011, 10:25:52 PM
M&St.L's 2-8-2s were relatively small (predating the USRA types), with only 55 square feet of grate area, 59-inch drivers, and just over 46,000 lbs. tractive effort.  An RS-1 had 1,000 hp. and 40,425 lbs. tractive effort.  I suspect the horsepower rating and a diesel's better adhesion may have made these units comparable in the eyes of the M&St.L's management--or perhaps the management was optimistic about the diesels.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mikado/?page=msl

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/MSTL611C.JPG

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4034/mstl63417847.jpg

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/MSTL629B.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_RS-1

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=296378&nseq=107

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=297217&nseq=92

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=296963&nseq=103

Have fun.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 11, 2011, 10:55:44 PM
ram

while it is true that most railroads had started to dieselize by 1952, most were in fact not anywhere close to being completely dieselized. the tipping point for most railroads was 1956-1957. a study of diesel production figures bears this out. the resulting slowdown of diesel sales drove two builders out of the locomotive business, baldwin and fairbanks morse.

as an example of the diesel sales from the period, consider that at the end of 1952, emd sserial numbers were in the 17000s, by the end of 1957 they were up around 24000, over 6000 diesels built during that period by emd alone. it took another 3 years for the serials to reach 26000, a production rate of about half the previous 5 year period. those numbers are even worse when you take into account that in the late 1950s emd was filling its order books with overseas orders, business that emd didn't really pursue in the early 1950s.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Doneldon on September 12, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
The time tables on dieselization were all over the map. Some railroads, especially western railroads, began dieselization before World War II and had rostered a lot of new locos early on. Other railroads waited as long as possible, mostly due to limited funds and low resale values on their paid for steamers. Because of this, and the fact that every road had its own unique approach to dieselization, it's pretty hard to talk about a certain date for dieselization.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 12, 2011, 07:25:19 AM
A lot of things had effects on the date of a railroad's conversion to diesel power.  They included the road's financial condition, the availability of credit to a given road (not normally a problem in the dieselization era, diesels could be resold easily if things didn't work out, making the financially weak New York Ontario & Western an early candidate for diesels, financing by GMAC), the age and condition of the road's existing steam power, the size of the railroad, and the attitudes of the management (there were some men, and not just in the motive power department, on the Norfolk & Western and the Canadian Pacific, who were steam men first and last).

Steam resale values were something of a variable.  If the power was new, that lead to a problem if its equipment trust (bond issue) wasn't paid for (a number of 2-8-4s from the Pere Marquette couldn't be scrapped for years because of this); there was also a perceived notion of waste with relatively new power.  On a road with old power, like a NYO&W or even a Ma & Pa, the financial condition would be an important factor; the steam engines wouldn't be worth much anyway, but scrap metal prices in the 1950s were relatively high, and that wasn't a problem for such a road. 

How quickly would a G&D have dieselized, and with how much?  I picture the road as being only about one division long between its two SP interchanges as originally envisioned by Allen, which would make it between 60 and 100 miles long.  I can imagine traffic dropping off somewhat in the 50s due to the increasing influence of cars and trucks, although this might not be as quickly as some other places due to no new roads in the area (a situation similar to the narrow-gauge country of Colorado and New Mexico, the tundra country of the lines to Hudson Bay in Canada, and the rugged country of the beautiful Algoma Central in Ontario).

That last one might be a prototype to adapt to a diesel G&D--road switchers and switchers only, and similar-looking country and perhaps traffic levels, although length would be somewhat longer.  The ACR only took a year or two for the conversion, with only 25 units.  Two were switchers, 21 were GP7s, and there were two GP9s (the last ones built, well into GP-18 production). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algoma_Central_Railway

http://algomacentral.railfan.net/algoma1.htm

http://www.trainweb.org/algoma/diesel.html

http://www.trainweb.org/algoma/eroster.html

The steam roster looks a lot like the G&D, too--about half second-hand!

http://www.trainweb.org/algoma/sroster.html



Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: jward on September 12, 2011, 08:18:33 AM
the only problem with an early dieselization of the g&d is the presence in photos of 1950s era paint schemes on freight cars. notably, a boxcar in a version of the new haven black with orange door, lettered for a fictitious road, and a hopper car in the b&o billboard scheme. these, running on an all steam g&d, would lead me to believe that g&d would have been one of the holdouts. algoma central's roster, while intriguing, is i feel too early for the g&d. move it forward 5-10 years and you have late single fan gp9s and sw1200s.  or rs11s and t6s, similar to n&w before the mergers.

as for the g&d being only one division, john allen himself had indicated on maps other divisions to the east and west of what was modelled. which would make the railroad something akin to the rio grande standard guage. with sizeable online traffic at port.....

total roster, given the number series john used, would have been about 40 locomotives. which would have been the equivalent of about 25 diesels.

 
doneldon,

i would direct you to my web page: http://www.trainweb.org for some emd production info. if you look at any individual road's locomotive purchases, there is a gap between the completion of dieselization and the start of diesel replacement of up to 5 years or more. by looking for this gap in purchases, you can pretty much figure out when they retired the last steam locomotives.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 12, 2011, 01:26:18 PM
J. Ward, I'm going to have to either get Wescott's book or dig my out my "musty magazines" (that's what my wife calls them).  Your comments about other divisions and the more modern cars certainly suggest a later conversion.  Such a late changeover, as you suggest, would be all road-switchers, likely no cab units, and would be Alco or EMD, (there would also be a very faint chance it could be F-M) but don't know if it would be split between two builders for a road this small.

Depending on the initial diesel order, the paint scheme could be railroad designed (which was the case, I believe, of the later New Haven scheme you suggested), or it could be a factory scheme.  Interestingly, the Iowa Interstate scheme you illustrated earlier (representing a second-generation possibility) could be something like an EMD scheme from the late 1950s.  By this time most main line roads had at least started on the diesel changeover, so most of the new paint schemes coming out after 1950 or so from EMD were for shortlines and industrial roads. 

You would pick different colors, of course, but take note of the pattern on this switcher (SW-1200) from the Bellelfonte Central in Pennsylvania, which incorporates a standard EMD grey and Southern green scheme:

http://bellefonte.com/heritage/BCR/5624byBlair.JPG

http://bellefonte.com/heritage/BCR/ColevilleTrain.JPG

A new railroad, built in only 1951, was the Quebec, North Shore & Labrador.  This road was all-EMD from the beginning, and used a factory scheme that was an adaptation of the New York, Ontario & Western F-unit scheme (which was also an EMD scheme):

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1034040

NYO&W FT units for comparison:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow807ade.jpg

The colors are different, but check out the pattern  (in green and yellow) on an F unit from the Chicago & Northwestern:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cnw/cnw4071.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cnw/cnw4078Cdsa.jpg

Another EMD scheme, from the Tennesse, Alabama & Georgia:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-t/tag707.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-t/tag708.jpg

What was likely the last EMD factory scheme was for one of the last railroads to convert to diesel--Northwestern Steel & Wire (industrial road), which did not convert to diesel until the 1980s!

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nwsw2.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4531364203_7a5a21693f.jpg

General image search results for Northwestern Steel & Wire; check out the steam photos, most of which may appear to be from the 1970s!

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?location=Northwest%20Steel%20and%20Wire

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/NS%26W_80.jpg/776px-NS%26W_80.jpg

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs42/PRE/i/2009/114/4/0/Northwestern_Steel_and_Wire_by_classictrains.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/4/4/6644.1287066780.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8226029@N06/3244860053/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8226029@N06/3244859579/in/photostream/

An Alco designed scheme, in this case on a Century series switcher (demonstrator):

http://www.playle.com/pictures/ETEXBILL7448.jpg

The same on a set of road switchers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drgw/2865263363/

http://www.american-rails.com/images/Alco_MB_Demo.jpg

For comparison, an EMD demonstrator from the 1950s:

http://www.rypn.org/articles/layout/060301cook/images/GP7-DEMONSTRATOR-400PIX.jpg

A later variant, using EMD classic blue and white colors:

http://www.daveswebshop.com/cards/rp862.jpg

This one is just cool:

http://www.toytrains1.com/images/trains/emd499.jpg

Have fun.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 12, 2011, 02:43:32 PM
this thread has just gone beyond hopeful discussion for me.... diesels...... :-[


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: RAM on September 12, 2011, 10:12:20 PM
Well I did some more checking on the diesel on the G & D.  It is not a Varney picture.  Varney never made such a locomotive.  I would say it was an old Walther's casting.  Anyway it was taken on the old part of the railroad which I believe either became a branch line or a short line.  Anyway it is lettered Rockande Mtn #502.  Now it may be a visiting locomotive.  Ant way it was in with pictures of the G&D locomotives.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Geared Steam on September 12, 2011, 10:16:45 PM
this thread has just gone beyond hopeful discussion for me.... diesels...... :-[
Never happened on the G&D, only in Varney ads. One pic John took shows a group hanging a diesel salesman from the trestle. The G & D was steam all the way! ;)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 12, 2011, 10:25:35 PM
"Anyway it is lettered Rockande Mtn #502.  Now it may be a visiting locomotive.  Anyway it was in with pictures of the G&D locomotives."--RAM

Any chance there is a link or something to this photo that the rest of us can check out?


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 13, 2011, 08:45:52 PM
(http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/cvmw.html) definitely not one of his engines but it is a diesel running on the layout -__-


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on September 16, 2011, 01:48:54 PM
I suppose this is OT, but since it concerns the G&D I'll report here that I'm absolutely tickled that I finally managed to score a couple of the Roundhouse G&D "tribute" kits, an Overton combine and a drover's caboose. I'm looking forward to their arrival. :)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Geared Steam on September 16, 2011, 10:19:43 PM
I suppose this is OT, but since it concerns the G&D I'll report here that I'm absolutely tickled that I finally managed to score a couple of the Roundhouse G&D "tribute" kits, an Overton combine and a drover's caboose. I'm looking forward to their arrival. :)

 ;D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TOAl_74qc8I/AAAAAAAAAk0/gvqG6Y_9bB0/s1600/PICT2544.jpg)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 17, 2011, 01:59:11 PM
Well, back to the steam era. . .

Below is a link to what must be a partial roster of the G&D, from a website that is apparently more on computer games with this line than anything else (it also seems to have photos that are not available elsewhere):

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/G&D/page118.html

Going from the information above and other photos and memories (and I've got to get Wescott's book one of these days), the roster that I can put together looks something like this (corrections welcomed, of course):

1.        4-2-0   Scratchbuilt, not powered, museum piece
2.        4-4-0   Mantua General?
3.                    Did Allen have a No. 3?
4.         4-4-0   PFM V&T Reno?
5.                     Did Allen have a No. 5?
6.         0-4-4-0 Heisler, 2-truck
7.         0-4-4-0 Shay, 2-truck
8.         4-4-0    Sargent Ennis (Mantua Belle of the Eighties)
9, 10.   0-4-0T  Docksides, Varney, B&O prototype
11.                   Did Allen have a No. 11?
12.       0-6-0    MDC-Roundhouse, SP prototype
13.                    Emma the dinosaur
14.                    Railcar
15.        0-8-0    USRA, Akane?
16--24               Did Allen have any engines in these numbers?
25.         2-6-0   Freelanced, based on MDC 0-6-0
26.         2-8-0   Looks to be UP prototype, PFM?
27.         2-8-0   Looks to be AT&SF prototype, PFM 1951 class?
28.         2-8-0   Looks to be AT&SF prototype, but doesn't quite look like the 27.
29.         2-8-0   Looks to be B&O prototype, PFM E-27
30-33                 Did Allen have any engines in these numbers?
34.         4-10-0  Homebuilt job, Mantua drivers, Varney 2-8-0 boiler, etc.
35.       0-6-6-0   Modified PFM Sierra 38 2-6-6-2
36.       2-6-6-2   Don't know what this was, but it could be a Sierra 2-6-6-2
37.       2-6-6-2   Great Northern prototype, but who made it?
38.       2-6-6-2   PFM Sierra 38
39.       2-6-6-2   PFM (?) C&O H-6 (1949 prototype, based on 1910 design)
40.       2-8-2      AT&SF prototype, but who made it?
41.                     Did Allen have a No. 41?
42.       2-8-2      Mantua engine; modified to look like a C&O K-3?
43.       2-8-4      AT&SF prototype, PFM, may have been Allen's last purchase
44.                     Did Allen have a No. 44?
45.       2-8-4      Plastic NKP engine, modified to look like C&O (low headlight-listed as a 2-8-2 on the above site)
46-47                 Did Allen have engines in these numbers?
48.       4-6-0      Canadian Pacific prototype; who made it?
49.       4-6-0      Modified Varney "Old Lady," SP prototype
50.       4-6-2      Heavily modified Varney 4-6-2, basic model based on SP prototype
51-55                 Did Allen have any engines in this series?
56.       4-6-2      Bowser, NYC K-11 prototype, mated to ATSF tender
57-59                 Did Allen have any engines in this series?
60.       B-2         Doodlebug, homemade, perhaps representing a conversion
101.     4-6-4      A high-stepper on the G&D?

What's intriguing to me are the gaps, most notably the number series between 30 and 33, and 51-55.  I picture 30-33 as being additional 4-10-0s, and that this was a custom order for the G&D from about 1920 to provide a heavy locomotive that could run on light rail.  Nos. 51-55 would be other 4-6-2s, in two classes; 51 and 52 would be duplicates of No. 50, and in the prototype world, would not be considered the best locomotives due to poor steaming (firebox too small, Allen modified No. 50 to resemble such an older engine).  Nos. 53-56 were based on a successful NYC 4-6-2 design that was actually a fast freight engine on that road, and would have been similar in performance to other freight 4-6-2s used on the Lehigh Valley and the Lackawanna, and would also be similar in proportions and performance to mountain passenger 4-6-2s built for the Virginian Railway and the Western Maryland.

Other possible gap-fillers would be No. 3 (another 4-4-0), No. 11 (possibly another MDC 0-6-0), No. 5 (another 4-4-0 or another geared engine--these could also be locomotives that had been retired by the 1950s setting of the classic G&D), and Nos. 46 and 47 being additional 4-6-0s.

This brings up a question I suggested before--What would a backdated G&D look like, set in the prewar era or even back to the 1920s?  What other engines would be on the roster then that would have been "retired" before the 1950s era?


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 18, 2011, 02:41:51 PM
Through extensive research I had created a database online on John's Locomotives from the book and additional discoveries were added:


1   2-2-0   Stombecker   Named Charles Rush, no motor

2   4-2-0   scratch-built   Named CD Grandt, had a motorized gondola

4   4-4-0   Mantua   Mantua General   

6      Heisler     United Brass logging and switching

7   Shay   PFM/United   logging and switching   

8   4-4-0   Mantua   Mantua Belle of the '80s, named the Sargeant Ennis

9   0-4-0T   Varney   first actual G&D loco, Varney lil' Joe   

10   0-4-0T   Sakura, diecast boiler

12   0-6-0   MDC   Great Divide switcher   MDC 0-6-0 repl.   

13   organic switcher   n/a   Emma the stegosaurus

14   railcar   scratch-built   The President's Car. H.D. Vanderlip's personal touring car   PSC 1907 Thomas Flyer

15   0-8-0   Tenshodo USRA 0-8-0 brass kit   MOW, switching "Renumbered from or to #5"

25   2-6-0   MDC   orig. 0-6-0, mod into 2-6-0 with scratch-built tender

26   2-8-0   PFM/United   UP prototype with a short tender   

27   2-8-0   PFM/United   AT&SF class 1950 prototype, had Varney tender with Franklin booster   

28   2-8-0   PFM/United   AT&SF class 1950 prototype   

29   2-8-0   United brass   B&O E-27ca prototype   

34   4-10-0   kitbash   Varney Reading 2-8-0 boiler, Varney Casey Jones cylinders & pilot, Mantua General pilot truck & wheels, Varney modified tender

35   0-6-6-0   PFM/Unitied   Sierra 2-6-6-2 prototype   

36   2-6-6-2   custom built??   helper engine

37   2-6-6-2   M. B. Austin   GN L-1 prototype   

38   2-6-6-2   PFM/United   Sierra 2-6-6-2 prototype   

39   2-6-6-2   PFM/United   C&O H-6 prototype   

40   2-8-2   PFM/United   AT&SF prototype   

42   2-8-2   Mantua   Mantua heavy mike, HObbyline berkshire parts   

43   2-8-4   PFM/United   AT&SF prototype (The Book says 2-10-2)

45   2-8-4   John English and Sims Lab mechanism   NKP Berkshire   

48   4-6-0   Van Hobbies/United   CP D-10 prototype, green boiler   

49   4-6-0   Varney & PFM/United   Varney Casey Jones, PFM/United UP 2-8-0 brass tender   

50   4-6-2   Varney   Varney Economy Pacific, Bowser tender   

56   4-6-2   Bowser   Bowser NYC K-3 (or K-11?), PFM/United AT&SF 2-8-0 class 1950 tender   

60   gas-electric   scatchbuilt   

101   4-6-4   A.C. Gilbert   A. C. Gilbert 4-6-4, Rock Island tender   BLI 4-6-4



#11 is just a freelanced MDC replica, john hadn't an 11


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 18, 2011, 07:26:44 PM
Thanks for the additional information, Rye; your comments about No. 101 allows me to identify it as the third "unit" from the top in the linked photo below, beneath a tank engine with a diamond stack and a Bowser Brill trolley:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_006_const_july56-orig.html

There is another engine I can't identify; it is the furthest to the right in this photo, next to a curving main line.  It's the tank engine mentioned above with a diamond stack, and is notable in that it has a saddle tank (wraps around the boiler), but the top of the tank is flat (suggesting an older prototype), and the engine appears to have a peaked cab roof, also typical of older locomotives (i.e., No. 8, the Sargent Ennis).

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_012_const_july57-orig.html

A slightly different angle:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_007_const_july57-orig.html

This is interesting--a tiny, European-looking narrow gauge tank engine, on a pedestal, apparently a preserved industrial locomotive; it's lined up above and behind No. 28's stack and a bulldozer in this photo.  Wonder what the story behind that one is?

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_079_westwardho28_feb70-orig.html

This is interesting, several trolleys that do not look like the one Allen used for the Cooper electric line, and some orange traction motors (lower right corner).  Visiting equipment?

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_02/slides/s2_014_cablecar_july59-orig.html

The "V&T"-looking 4-4-0 (Reno, straight stack) shows up in this photo, at the left in the photo at Angels Camp, just to the left of a long drovers' caboose, another visitor?

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/G&D/page8.html

Have fun.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: RAM on September 18, 2011, 09:26:25 PM
One thing I noticed, John did not spend money on new lumber for his branch work.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on September 19, 2011, 02:05:38 PM
I suppose this is OT, but since it concerns the G&D I'll report here that I'm absolutely tickled that I finally managed to score a couple of the Roundhouse G&D "tribute" kits, an Overton combine and a drover's caboose. I'm looking forward to their arrival. :)

 ;D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PXQb77VTrs0/TOAl_74qc8I/AAAAAAAAAk0/gvqG6Y_9bB0/s1600/PICT2544.jpg)

I've seen eBay listings for the ventilated boxcar, too. The combine and the drover's caboose arrived on Friday. I'm hoping some day I'll be able to get a coach to match with the combine.  :)


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on September 19, 2011, 02:07:48 PM
13   organic switcher   n/a   Emma the stegosaurus

Ya think Bachmann could make a Spectrum version?  ;)  ;D


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 19, 2011, 04:35:31 PM
One thing I noticed, John did not spend money on new lumber for his branch work.


John never bought anything he could make himself most of the time, I wouldn't be surprised if his benchwork was mostly broken down wooden pallets, those boards can have good pine in em


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 19, 2011, 09:35:13 PM
While looking for something else, I ran into this, a nice photo of Rayonier 38, formerly of the Sierra Railway, as it looked some years later.  This is the prototype of the model John Allen used for his own No. 38:

http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/wt4/rayon38meh.jpg

This is really a logging Mallet, built by Baldwin, and late, too, like around 1930 or so.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: GRZ on September 20, 2011, 11:05:45 AM
 there is a wonderfull spread in the 1969 issue of model railroader mag, on the G&P wish i could have seen that layout in person. my issue is all but worn out from drooling over it. Greg.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: RAM on September 20, 2011, 03:30:13 PM
I never got to see John's layout either.  I did get to see him one time and spent the day on a fan trip.  That was about 6 months after I lost my wife first wife, and going on a fan trip with three small children.  Needles to say I did not have any time to visit with John.  John had a wonderful layout.  One thing that John did was open the door for others.  To day we have many layouts that are as good, if not better than John's.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 25, 2011, 03:34:13 PM

There is another engine I can't identify; it is the furthest to the right in this photo, next to a curving main line.  It's the tank engine mentioned above with a diamond stack, and is notable in that it has a saddle tank (wraps around the boiler), but the top of the tank is flat (suggesting an older prototype), and the engine appears to have a peaked cab roof, also typical of older locomotives (i.e., No. 8, the Sargent Ennis).

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_012_const_july57-orig.html

A slightly different angle:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_007_const_july57-orig.html


That's john's invention of a steam powered snowplow, not rostered as motive power, this can be seen in action in the gorre and daphetid video footage in a snow scene that inspired him to have a permanent snow scene on the 3rd layout

Quote

This is interesting--a tiny, European-looking narrow gauge tank engine, on a pedestal, apparently a preserved industrial locomotive; it's lined up above and behind No. 28's stack and a bulldozer in this photo.  Wonder what the story behind that one is?

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_079_westwardho28_feb70-orig.html


my guess is that he wanted to have like a narrow gauge memorial for a line that may have ran through andrews? No clue, it's mostly all standard gauge at Andrews I believe. But most interesting is the station to the right which has an atlas station and platform incorporated into it, I really wish I knew what components he used for the bottom half of that station whether he made it or came from another kit, I'd really light to build that station.

Quote

This is interesting, several trolleys that do not look like the one Allen used for the Cooper electric line, and some orange traction motors (lower right corner).  Visiting equipment?

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_02/slides/s2_014_cablecar_july59-orig.html


my best guess is Dave Cooper's Trolleys to test the electrical overhead lines he made, John only had one trolley



Quote
The "V&T"-looking 4-4-0 (Reno, straight stack) shows up in this photo, at the left in the photo at Angels Camp, just to the left of a long drovers' caboose, another visitor?

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/G&D/page8.html

Have fun.

Most likely a visitor, after the second layout John had little interest in older power, he wanted mostly chunky engines with pulling power, so most likely a visitor, I think we came to that conclusion in the group when me and a few others pointed it out




Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on September 25, 2011, 04:10:37 PM
Thanks for the answers, Rye; sounds like you and the Yahoo group have been having some heavy discussions on identifying this odd stuff here and there.

Looking at the Andrews station, it looks to me that the lower level is a homemade job.  The construction technique, based on the appearance of the windows in the lower brick section, appears to be a base of wood or perhaps cardboard, overlaid with brick paper--a common construction method from at least the 1940s into the at least the 1970s.  The windows themselves seem to be clear plastic with the muntins (window framing strips) painted or inked on; the plastic itself seems to be sanded, perhaps with fingers and an abrasive powder such as pumice, to give it "tooth" for the ink or paint to stick.  This, and the brick paper too, was a technique used very frequently by E. L. Moore, who wrote many structure scratchbuilding articles in Railroad Model Craftsman over the years.  The LCL freight platforms are the far right are modified from the Atlas kit's platforms; the doors in the lower level also appear to be Atlas depot components, possibly from the base kit's unseen rear wall.  John apparently didn't spend extra money on things like that! 

Trim would be stripwood, the base or foundation is likely also stripwood (strip and sheet styrene wouldn't have been commonly available until later).  I couldn't guess as to what the roof is; there would be several things to use for that.  The chimney appears to be a square piece of wood wrapped in brick paper again.  I think the stairs would have been a horrible scratchbuilding job then, but you can get very similar looking steps in plastic from Tichy today. 

Signs and weathering, of course would be to taste, although I wonder what method John used to weather the brick walls and not have the ink run or cause warping in the paper.  Of course, all this would have been well braced inside to prevent warping in general. 

It also appears the station was not quite complete at the time of the photo; that's a long and dangerous final drop at the bottom of those stairs! 


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ForThemPanzerz on September 25, 2011, 10:44:36 PM
As my quote says "John Allan and the G&D need their own museum."


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 25, 2011, 11:26:42 PM
As my quote says "John Allan and the G&D need their own museum."

John has a whole section dedicated to him at the museum in Sacramento CA


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ForThemPanzerz on September 26, 2011, 06:34:25 PM
As my quote says "John Allan and the G&D need their own museum."

John has a whole section dedicated to him at the museum in Sacramento CA
thats good, i think model railroader owns the last 2 operating G&D engines but their both in display cases.


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: ryeguyisme on September 28, 2011, 07:53:11 PM
one is at the museum and the other is in private hands


Title: Re: Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives
Post by: J3a-614 on October 06, 2017, 12:40:02 AM
It's an old topic, but this ties in--commentary on John Allen and the Gorre & Daphetid by Jim Findley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rK99FrHAHw