Has anyone been watching "Hell on Wheels"?
Lots of old time railroad stuff. Some things I wonder about. In one episode there was a real long metal flat car. I wouldn't think that was 1860's appropriate, but I'm not sure.
Last week there was a car in the background - A passenger car with a cupola and it looked like it had two trucks under the rear of the car. Couldn't really see the front of the car.
Check this photo of the funeral car on Lincoln's funeral train.
http://www.cowanauctions.com/itemImages/e3934.jpg (http://www.cowanauctions.com/itemImages/e3934.jpg)
Jim
I knew about Lincoln's car. I just hadn't seen anything else like that.
The images of rail equipment are computer generated wannabes. They were generated by a person who almost, but not quite, knew what a train looked like. Look at the pilot of the locomotive; the lower end of the coupling link does not exist. It just ends in a blob. The locomotive has an air compressor. It looks like a 55 gallon drum sitting on the walkway, with plumbing. There were no airbrakes in the 1860s so it does not belong there.
The railroad's 'end of track' changed by the hour. "Hell on Wheels" was the name for the portable den of iniquity that followed the railroad's construction camp.
The clerestory on the passenger car was not unusual for the time.
Quote from: BillD53A on January 03, 2012, 05:33:23 AM
The images of rail equipment are computer generated wannabes.
Well, not exactly. The locomotive is a real item, except it is made entirely out of Extruded Foam (pink or blue stuff).
There are computer enhancements such as smoke and steam. I missed the metal flat car. I'm sure wood would be the appropriate type.
It's all about the story and there's only so much they could do to get everything correct. It would have been nice to have an authentic 1860's engine and cars but that would have been nearly impossible.
See more about it here: http://www.amctv.com/hell-on-wheels/videos/inside-hell-on-wheels-building-the-train (http://www.amctv.com/hell-on-wheels/videos/inside-hell-on-wheels-building-the-train) Very interesting.
It was the caboose type cupola to which I was referring, not the clerestory passenger cars.
There were two of those in the series. One was a dark colored one that was in use in the series. The other was a light colored one in the background and it is the one that looked like it had two trucks on the back. I have no way of recording so I couldn't rewind and double check.
The 4-4-0 did look petty fake in some shots. I wondered if they had just built a wood mock up. I knew the smoke was not normal.
Quote from: Terry Toenges on January 03, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
The 4-4-0 did look petty fake in some shots. I wondered if they had just built a wood mock up. I knew the smoke was not normal.
Been watching regularly.
At least they made an effort to create a locomotive that looks something like an 1860s engine instead of something with piston valves. :D I've noticed some strange looking doohickey on top of what should be the sand dome, but no whistle or valves on top of the steam dome, so where does the whistle sound come from? :D
I'd like to see more of Wes Studi as the Cheyenne chief. He's always a good actor to watch. :)
I think this series would be a great idea for a Bachmann train set in any scale.
Might have to change the name to "Heck on Wheels".
Les
When I first saw the long metal flat car, I thought perhaps they had used a diesel to bring in the 4-4-0 aboard the flat car, then just coupled it up to the 4-4-0 and used it in scenes to carry cameras for some of the scenes. They they just left it coupled and coupled the passenger behind it and used it in scenes.
I noticed at the end of that video is a quick shot of the drivers of a 2-6-0
Yeah, saw that too. They can't seem to get anything right. But they would never get their American to do that speed ;D
RE: 2013 Season
I am watching episode 304. How many episodes have I missed so far this season?
Thank you.
Quote from: BillD53A on January 03, 2012, 05:33:23 AM
The images of rail equipment are computer generated wannabes. They were generated by a person who almost, but not quite, knew what a train looked like. Look at the pilot of the locomotive; the lower end of the coupling link does not exist. It just ends in a blob. The locomotive has an air compressor. It looks like a 55 gallon drum sitting on the walkway, with plumbing. There were no airbrakes in the 1860s so it does not belong there.
The railroad's 'end of track' changed by the hour. "Hell on Wheels" was the name for the portable den of iniquity that followed the railroad's construction camp.
The clerestory on the passenger car was not unusual for the time.
I watch the show because I'm involved with cowboy action shooting. On the "cowboy" website they always comment on the
guns being period correct :D
When was a kid
My Dad would take us Downtown Chicago on Saturdays to mu seams and other stuff which always involved food!!
Above the Chicago Public Library was a HUGE Civil War museum. I remember there was a whole section on the Abe Lincoln Funeral Train with lots of original photos. My favorite part of the museum was the Doctors in Blue and Doctors in Gray section.
How any survived any medical issues in those days had to be miraculous. Statistically only 25% of the wounded died of their wounds or complications associated with surgery or wounds. An incredible statistic as you would think it would be higher!!!
I don't know what became of the mu seam as Herold Washington while mayor was not kind to our historical heritage of Chicago. The museum disappeared when he decided to build a new Chico Library named after himself. We also lost an original World War 2 submarine "Bowfin" as he wanted to tax it and charge rent for its birth in the Chicago River. He also up ed all the fees to Meigs Field as it was probably the only airport in the country in a downtown metropolitan city. The was the beginning of the end for Meigs as Daley who came afterwards had his bulldozers come to the airport at midnight and tear up the runways with aircraft still at the airport!!!!!
Fred-
I'm pretty sure that the Civil War / Abraham Lincoln exhibit wound up at the Chicago Historical Society. As you may know, the original downtown library now houses the Museum of Broadcasting. I haven't lived in the city for a long time and I have no relatives there any more so I haven't visited much, either. However, I did have a couple of hours at the broadcast museum a few years ago and I was very impressed. I have it on my agenda for the next time I take a grandson to Chicago.
As a native Chicagoan (born there and lived many years, in Chicago, that is, NOT Glen Ellyn or Park Ridge) I have always admired the audacity and creative larceny of the city's political bosses.
As a college sophomore who subscribed to the Sunday Trib, I woke up one morning to read about how the original McCormick Place had burned down. There had been a major political war over the issue and why a sufficiently large convention center hadn't been built in the first place just a couple of years earlier. Anyway, the first (real) Dick Daley wanted a new McCormick Place but the rest of the city fathers didn't want to spend the money or lose revenue during construction so things were stalemated. Then, mistakes were made late one Saturday night. No one was scheduled to be on guard duty overnight, somebody forgot to arm the fire alarms and the sprinklers were turned off for maintenance. As luck would have it, a fire started that very night and, with no one there to notice, the whole place burned down. So ... Dick Daley got his new, enlarged McCormick Place.
Ten years ago I took a grandson on a Chicago visit. We woke up our first morning, a Monday, with the TV and papers full of the remarkable disappearance of Meigs Field overnight. This was the outcome of another battle, this one between Dick Daley the Younger and downtown business interests. Hizzonor wanted to change Meigs Field into a hotel and Casino development both to enhance tax revenue and to eliminate what was seen by some as a major security problem in the post-911 world.
(For those who don't know, Meigs was a private airfield located on a constructed peninsula in Lake Michigan, within sight of downtown. Downtown corporations liked the convenience of such a nearby airport because both O'Hare and Midway were 30-45 minutes away at best. Being literally seconds from buildings like the Sears Tower, some people feared there would be no way to react if a terrorist decided to fly an airplane from Meigs into one of the city's landmark structures.)
Well, on the Sunday night in question, somebody stole Meigs Field. As coincidence would have it, someone forgot to schedule security overnight. No one saw anything, including the police (who are everywhere in Chicago), but many citizens reported hearing trucks from the street department all night. By morning, most of Meigs was gone and all that remained were parts of the concrete airstrip bulldozed into piles. Oh, yes. All of the planes were still there, too. Of course, they couldn't be flown out of Meigs anymore so the downtown businessmen who opposed the Mayor had to expensively dismantle their aircraft and truck or barge them to another location. Actually, some planes were able to fly out from the taxi strip or a grassy area. No casinos or hotels were ever built; Meigs is now a great lakeside park and entertainment venue. I wouldn't be at all surprised, however, to read some morning that the whole peninsula has disappeared or that a whole casino complex has appeared overnight. Now, that's Chicago.
I continue to watch for the next episode of lax security leading to another mysterious event which helps a mayor's agenda.
-- D
I take it no one knows how many episodes there have been this season before #304?
I watched 304, 305, 306 and 307 last night. 304 was about Elam and Bohannon going to the Indians for permission to harvest timber from their land for RR ties and they ended up playing Death Match Lax (lacrosse).
The Indian Chief looked like he was played by the same actor who was in Flags of our Fathers and a Navajo in Windtalkers.
Awful show, historically inaccurate. Just awful.
Quote from: jbrock27 on September 22, 2013, 08:42:06 PM
I take it no one knows how many episodes there have been this season before #304?
I watched 304, 305, 306 and 307 last night. 304 was about Elam and Bohannon going to the Indians for permission to harvest timber from their land for RR ties and they ended up playing Death Match Lax (lacrosse).
The Indian Chief looked like he was played by the same actor who was in Flags of our Fathers and a Navajo in Windtalkers.
The chief was played by Adam Beach.
A lot of these shows have great costumes,weaponry really good BUT like Roger above said historically way off or in your face about a re-write of historical events.
I am not watching this show to check for historical accuracy, anymore than when I am watching The Walking Dead. I am watching for entertainment. If I am looking to watch TV for historical accuracy, I will watch The History Channel or Military Channel. The Military Channel recently rated the top ten fighters of all time-anyone want to guess which one was #1 and which one was #7? ;D
Still looking for an answer to my original question as opposed to commentary about the show itself. Thank you.
I have given up on History Channel. Used to be pretty good not very many good historical shows like they used to. Military Channel is pretty good except when they run British productions that give the impression the British pretty much won the Second World War with a LITTLE help from the Yanks.
Doneldon
Thanks for all the info!!! I loved Meigs Field.When I was an EMT I had befriended a couple Ambulence Helicopter Pilots and had the exciting chance to fly to Meigs a few times. Great airport, great people and the best coffee for an airport.I loved that place.
We live 50 miles from Chicago in Indiana I'll have to check to see if the Civil War Museam is at the Historical Society now.
Thanks
Fred-
Where in Indiana? I lived out in the country near Valparaiso when I was in grade school. It wasn't a farm, just a subdivision, but it was the best place to live as a child. We had creeks, woods, abandoned houses, farm fields, railroads and all kinds of stuff to explore. Of course, it's also a bit of a miracle that we lived through our childhoods there. Between catching cottonmouths, hopping freights and sledding across US30 we tempted fate more than a little. Still, in its own way it was as valuable a place to be a kid as Chicago was when I was a teen.
-- D
Quote from: M1FredQ on September 23, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
I have given up on History Channel. Used to be pretty good not very many good historical shows like they used to. Military Channel is pretty good except when they run British productions that give the impression the British pretty much won the Second World War with a LITTLE help from the Yanks.
Whereas the American war movies and TV shows say the Americans won the war with no help. ;)
It`s a joke, don`t nobody go getting get your knickers in knot.
Quote from: jbrock27 on September 23, 2013, 06:26:32 AM
Still looking for an answer to my original question as opposed to commentary about the show itself. Thank you.
Yes, the chief was played by Adam Beach, who appeared in both those films:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0063440/?ref_=sr_1 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0063440/?ref_=sr_1)
Check his filmography.
Incidentally, if you're not familiar with IMDb, it's a great place to look up the answers to questions about who was in what. You can search by movie title or by actor's name.
Thank you JBJ, but that was not the question I was looking for an answer for. I only mentioned the actor along with the episode details in order to give some background to first episode I was able to watch this year, to hopefully give some clues to someone who might be able to tell me what episodes I missed prior to that. I am familiar with IMDb and Adam Beach, but thank you anyhow.
Quote from: jbrock27 on September 24, 2013, 01:24:03 PM
Thank you JBJ, but that was not the question I was looking for an answer for. I only mentioned the actor along with the episode details in order to give some background to first episode I was able to watch this year, to hopefully give some clues to someone who might be able to tell me what episodes I missed prior to that. I am familiar with IMDb and Adam Beach, but thank you anyhow.
I'm sorry I misunderstood your question, but you can probably still find what you're looking for by looking up the show at IMDb.
I really don't know from episode numbers, but I might guess that in that three-digit number, the first digit represents the season and the last digit represents the episode, so if you started with episode 304, you started with the fourth episode of season 3, so I'd guess maybe you missed three episodes. But I'm just theorizing.
Spoiler Alert:I didn't watch from the beginning of this season because I was "annoyed" that they killed off Lily at the end of last season. On the other hand, I suppose there wasn't much left for her to do except to hang around as Bohannon's love interest. They might have sent her back East, or back to England, or something, instead of killing her off. :(
I'll probably miss the finale of this season, as I'll be traveling the first weekend in October.
Thank you JBJ-what you say makes perfect sense-I probably started with #4.
Yea, I liked Lilly a lot too and was disappointed (with all concerned) but it is all part of the great story! Even though I have not seen episodes 1-3 from this year, I think you would like them, bc clearly "you know who" is back. I would now like to see the "how".
Perhaps you won't miss the finale if you have a cable box. A lot of cable providers now allow you to search for programs that have already played that are saved (by them for you automatically). This is different than DVR. It is just a matter of looking up by network for different shows and you can play them back and blitz thru the commercials. I have Time Warner Cable myself, but would imagine many providers provide for the same thing. It is a memory feature the box must have in it.
Thank you again for the help.
Yea, the History Channel is horrible now. Its the Pawn Stars channel now. What ever happened to Trains Unlimited ?
Quote from: rustycoupler on September 24, 2013, 04:48:29 PM
Yea, the History Channel is horrible now. Its the Pawn Stars channel now. What ever happened to Trains Unlimited ?
And way too many of these stupid "pickers' shows, shooting crocs shows (just cruelty) etc., etc..
I agree with that and dislike the nauseating overabundance of "reality" shows on TV now in general.
Ive got a 18yr old living here now, so I recently got cable again for the first time in 4 years. Still watch the local networks the most. What a waste of time and money. What a waste of train time, and train money. ;)
Like so many others who have posted on the issue, I'm also disappointed with the History Channel now. I enjoy the occasional Pawn Stars or Pickers but the Mountain Men and Swamp People seem to e the same thing over and over so I don't watch them.
Roger: I think the alligator shooters are earning a living and reducing what must be perceived as an overabundance of crocodilians, so what they do is understandable, but I agree that showing shooting after shooting is borderline pornography. This is something I didn't know about, and I found it interesting for a show or two, but now it kind of sickens me so I don't watch.
H2 sometimes has some worthwhile historical material and so does the Military Channel. BBC America has worthwhile stuff from time to time. Mostly, though, I find myself discouraged about what's available on TV. It used to be that there was a great selection on the dish but now it's mostly junk. We find ourselves turning off the TV and going back to books more and more. Or wasting time on the Internet. (NB: that does NOT include this board which I enjoy a lot.)
-- D
It's eyes on the tube that sells advertising. Pawn Stars, Pickers, Duck dudes, etc. bring viewers. Trains, apparently, not so much.
All true statements eb.
Quote from: Doneldon on September 25, 2013, 11:44:23 AM
Mostly, though, I find myself discouraged about what's available on TV.
This is why I've spent the summer mostly watching 30-50-year-old programs on the "nostalgia" channels.
They say, "Everything old is new again," and for me that certainly applies to shows that aired so long ago I don't remember them (or, at least, particular episodes)--or programs that aired before I was born. :D
Quote from: Doneldon on September 25, 2013, 11:44:23 AM
I enjoy the occasional Pawn Stars -- D
I saw one last night. While the "kid" was watching he called me over. A man had a rail inspection tool. It was two inline wheels on a about a 2ft frame, each wheel had an inside and outside flange for straddling a rail. There was a long handle for guiding while walking, and a mirror, mounted low off the side, angled to reveal the underside inside corner area of the rail, without kneeling down, face on the ballast. Before the x-ray checks, they would walk along, and visually inspect the rail for cracks. Once every 8 months was said to be the frequency of the visual checks. An interesting piece of equipment. The owner wanted $1500, got offered $50 ???, I think they are both nuts.
IIRC, the track inspection device is called a "Rail Inspection Walking Stick", modern ones are electronic and can scan for cracks and other defaults.
Anyone disappointed this is its final season?
Hi. All,
I record Trains and Locomotives every week on RFDTV.
Always enjoyable!
Have fun!
the Bach-man
I'm disappointed. I wish Cullen would continue work for one of the railroads on TV. It's about the only show I really look forward to on TV.
Yep. One of the only 2 I will actually take time to watch, aside from sporting events.
Quote from: rogertra on September 24, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
Quote from: rustycoupler on September 24, 2013, 04:48:29 PM
Yea, the History Channel is horrible now. Its the Pawn Stars channel now. What ever happened to Trains Unlimited ?
And way too many of these stupid "pickers' shows, shooting crocs shows (just cruelty) etc., etc..
speaking of picker shows saw one where now their running around people's yards with a metal detector and a garden shovel digging up treasures.......ahhhh jeeeeez!😂
Anyone else finding this final season to be less than stellar?
Newton Minnow was correct several decades ago when he said of Television " Vast cultural Wasteland " . It also applies to most forms communication , a lot of noise and little information . So Sad !!! John 2 .
I can agree. Outside of getting most of my sports watching through television, there are few programs of interest and most of what is on TV, I would not miss.
Have an opinion of this last season of Hell on Wheels?
Wish I could I don't have cable & my antenna Rotor is still stuck . TV is intermittent BIG TIME . With all the political BS on I doubt I am missing much but aggravation . John 2 .
Stupid me! I thought, from the title "Hell on Wheels" you were referencing the New York City MTA number seven line, the "L" train. Riders call it the "L from Hell.'
One realty show I like is the one about the Alaska Railroad and how difficult it is to keep trains running on time. Maybe they could run it with another show dealing with the railroads in Florida - no snow down there - just the occasional hurricane.
Quote from: Jhanecker2 on July 16, 2016, 05:00:58 PM
I don't have cable & my antenna Rotor is still stuck . TV is intermittent BIG TIME . With all the political BS on I doubt I am missing much but aggravation . John 2 .
But if you wanted to catch up and not feel left out, you can also find it on the radio ;D
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 23, 2016, 12:10:56 PM
Stupid me!
Your words...
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 23, 2016, 12:10:56 PM
New York City MTA number seven line
Also as in 7 Line Army ;); I'd rather talk about that than any 'Reality' show, which is neither 'real' nor entertaining ::)
To Jbrock27 : My radios are normally tuned to classical stations even the car . John2
Sorry, but how boring.
To Jbrock27 : The classical music gives me a much longer playlist , and does not preclude the Rock , Jazz , blues and heavy metal that I exercise the speakers with when I am on a longer trip . I grew up at a time when broadcast music was abysmal & highly limited in diversity . I was thrilled when Rock & Roll became BIG TIME and listened to WLS and WCFL in Chicago on AM . Eventually found FM with better sound and more diversity; still listen to WFMT which is classical but had the MIDNIGHT SPECIAL on Saturday Nights after Midnight which was anything but classical . When I moved to the hinterland I found the classical station , and the Country station as first order of business . I have an extensive recording collection , it was my first and longest last vice . John2.
Remember something like 10 to 15 years ago, AM stereo was going to be all the rage?
I can remember local AM stations all changing over the AM stereo but no car radios ever came with AM stereo, that soon went the way of the Dodo.
Cheers
Roger T.
Glad to hear there is some diversity in your diet then
JH2 :)
Still, you shouldn't neglect keeping up with current events ;)
Quote from: rogertra on July 26, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Remember something like 10 to 15 years ago, AM stereo was going to be all the rage?
Cheers
Roger T.
No, never heard that ??? Was it a Canadian thing, maybe?
No one has any comments on the AMC Series? The finale even?
I remember AM stereo. It went the way of the cb radio and Betamax machines. Today there is HD AM radio. I don't know why they think it is necessary to hear some of the radio talkers in HD. I have read, and maybe I misread but the HD content might be different.
On a radio message board I read from time to time, one writer, who is involved with the technical end of broadcasting, claimed that cars keep radio going.
I teach in graduate school and I always poll my students, 75% of them being working teachers, about how they keep current with what's happening outside their classrooms. Very few, if any, read a newspapaer, If they listen to radio it is to the AM all news stations (to hear the weather) or sports broadcasting. When I ask what they use for news I get Facebook or Twitter as an answer.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 26, 2016, 04:04:17 PM
I remember AM stereo. Today there is HD AM radio.
Interesting. Never heard of either.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 26, 2016, 04:04:17 PM
...cars keep radio going.
Makes sense. Ever hear of SirusXM? Can get the METS wherever you are... :)
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 26, 2016, 04:04:17 PM
I always poll my students, 75% of them being working teachers, about how they keep current with what's happening outside their classrooms. Very few, if any, read a newspapaer...When I ask what they use for news I get Facebook or Twitter as an answer.
That is as sad a statement if there ever was one. Don't know what they are missing and more sadly, they probably don't care.
You think
Professor that it is because they forgot how to read words on printed paper? Or forgot how to turn pages?
Most, if not all, textbooks are available on line. A number of them come with CDs that are needed to access the online stuff. Once you log in the CD won't work and you have to contact the publisher for a new number. It prevents students from passing books on to others.
The books are very expensive and a number of titles are printed in India! Reading has taken a back seat to Pokémon. When I arrived at my college office last week to do advisement for graduate courses, a young man was waiting playing that stupid game.
On a departmental statistics test I gave once at the local community college a number of years ago. a student, using a calculator, gave "overflow error" as an answer. Another genius told me that one problem had 58 words and that was too many!
Kids in today's schools use calculators, computers, Smartboards. smart phones and tablets in class. Teachers assign homework online. It's a whole new world. We all see the effect of the computer age on the electronics included in train models.
People have pointed out what is wrong with the 1860 locomotives. How about flashing crossing signals.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 27, 2016, 09:34:34 AM
Most, if not all, textbooks are available on line. The books are very expensive
I do agree that College textbooks was one of the most expensive rackets going. What you got for turning it a almost new, used book at the end of a semester, was a total rip off compared to what was paid for it at the beginning of a semester. >:(
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 27, 2016, 09:34:34 AM
Reading has taken a back seat to Pokémon. Kids in today's schools use calculators, computers, Smartboards. smart phones and tablets in class. Teachers assign homework online.
Not all teachers assign homework strictly online, but I guess that is trending.
My son has an I6 Smart Phone (while I have a flip phone), my son loves to play video games (including Pokémon sometimes on his Smart Phone) on a laptop computer and gaming system.
He was also #2 in his class in AR (reading) points this year, reading the old fashioned way ;) He is currently reading "All Quiet On Western Front", paperback form...
(spelling edit)
All Quiet on the Western Front is a required reading in NY state. However, common core emphasizes non fiction so some old favorites might get dumped (I was very angry when I saw my school librarian throw out "Guadalcanal Diary (which is non fiction!"
Getting back to trains - a teacher I know who works with children with serious learning defects has a model railroad in an adjacent unused shop room. He uses old Marx trains, or cheap Lionel. The kids assemble the train tables, make buildings, do scenery and the more capable work on the wiring. The kids are proud of their railroad. It is nice to see that trains can still lead to learning. Their current project is a wooden bridge.
Rocker Neal Young bought an interest in Lionel trains because he found that they had a calming effect on his autistic son.
Thanks to the Bachmann for letting us get away from trains for a bit.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on July 28, 2016, 08:40:36 PM
All Quiet on the Western Front is a required reading in NY state.
Yep, read it myself ;)
Still have my paperback copy in my library , I think I read it in senior year high school . I enjoyed it . Interesting Title , nothing much happened except the main character dies . Another unnecessary war started by incompetent "leaders" with egos and no sense . Four empires died because of it . Russia , the Ottoman , German , and Austro-Hungarian all ruled by less than intellectually distinguished people . None of whom actually built the "Empires" . John2 .
Quote from: Jhanecker2 on July 30, 2016, 08:16:01 AM
I think I read it in senior year high school . nothing much happened except the main character dies .
John2 .
Not sure how you can come away making that statement if you actually
read the whole book ::)
I was referring to the "Title" The main character was killed so close to the end of the war after having suffered with the consequences on a Day that was described as so uneventful as "All quiet on the Western Front" The book definitely describes the effects of the war on the participants both military and civilian and lack of real honest information on the conditions by the governments involved on both sides. John2.
Quote from: Jhanecker2 on July 31, 2016, 09:55:08 AM
I was referring to the "Title" John2.
Thanks for clarifying as that was not clear.
Quote from: Jhanecker2 on July 31, 2016, 09:55:08 AM
The book definitely describes...lack of real honest information on the conditions by the governments involved on both sides. John2.
Written from the German perspective, not recalling it going into the other side of things ???