Bachmann Online Forum

Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: Cooped on March 24, 2012, 09:28:57 PM

Title: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 24, 2012, 09:28:57 PM
Hi all
Hopefully someone can help. I bought a Bachmann K4 today and after fixing the solder short on the circuit board in the tender I fitted a Soundtraxx TSU 1000 and 8ohm speaker. Tight fit, but after some surgery it all went in. Ran fine for about 3 minutes until the decoder overheated. I then taped the flat side of the decoder to a metal weight in the tender to help cooling as recommended in the installation guide, still over heated. I then ran without the tender body on for max air circulation, still overheated.
Surely the motor draw in these K4s isn't too much for a 1A decoder?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 09:30:44 AM
Remove the decoder and plug in the DC adapter. Hook up your multimeter using the DC amps option. Run the loco on 12 volts DC and do a current check.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 09:35:22 AM
Will do Rich, thanks. I'm a bit of a novice though, do I simply place the multimeter leads on each track rail?

Thanks
Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 09:48:51 AM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 09:35:22 AM
Will do Rich, thanks. I'm a bit of a novice though, do I simply place the multimeter leads on each track rail?

Thanks
Dan

For a current check, put the meter leads in series on one wire and the power pack. Look at the below link. Scroll to the bottom of the link. The light bulb would be your loco on the track and you can see the battery would be the power pack. Start with the highets amps scale.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_2/4.html

Store the link in Favorites.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Hi Rich

ok, done that. Draw normal running is ~0.1A. Gently pressing down on the loco I got a stall current of 0.7A.

Thanks for your reply on the MRR forum also.

Regards
Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 01:32:42 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Hi Rich

ok, done that. Draw normal running is ~0.1A. Gently pressing down on the loco I got a stall current of 0.7A.

Thanks for your reply on the MRR forum also.

Regards
Dan

The Tsunami 1000 should not overheat if running at a normal speed for that loco. Have you run the loco with the tender shell off to see if there is any difference?  Just might be a decoder issue.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:35:04 PM
Yes, I ran it with the shell off yesterday. It seemed it lasted a little longer before overheating, but hard to tell. :-[
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 01:42:11 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:35:04 PM
Yes, I ran it with the shell off yesterday. It seemed it lasted a little longer before overheating, but hard to tell. :-[

Right now I am guessing at a decoder issue. You could email SoundTraxx or try the Yahoo SoundTraxx group.
Any chance you have another TSU 1000 to try?
I and others have run these decoders with no temp issues.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:52:27 PM
This is my first Soundtraxx purchase, other than OEM fitted in a little Bachmann 2-6-0 Alco and an Athearn Big Boy. I fitted an ESU Loksound and noticed this gets pretty hot too, but it's never had any overheating problems. I've never noticed any of the OEM fitted getting hot so I may open one up and see how it's installed.

Perhaps it is a decoder issue, I'll give the Yahoo group a try and then call Soundtraxx.
Thanks
Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 02:18:08 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 01:52:27 PM
This is my first Soundtraxx purchase, other than OEM fitted in a little Bachmann 2-6-0 Alco and an Athearn Big Boy. I fitted an ESU Loksound and noticed this gets pretty hot too, but it's never had any overheating problems. I've never noticed any of the OEM fitted getting hot so I may open one up and see how it's installed.

Perhaps it is a decoder issue, I'll give the Yahoo group a try and then call Soundtraxx.
Thanks
Dan

All the OEM's to my knowledge have a open PC board design. No idea on how the components used on each "might" differ.
The shrink wrapped Tsunami seem to have a temp issue but all the temp issues I have seen so far are with the 750 Tsunami.
Another thing to try is to get some heat sink grease from Radio Shack and put a coating between the bottom, flattest part, of the shrink wrapped decoder and use small nylon ties to clamp the two items together. I get those small nylon ties at a hardware store. That has been suggested as well on the Yahoo SoundTraxx Group.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
I have also just tried running this decoder, sound on in another loco and it went round and round quite happily with no problems, put it back in the K4 and it over heated. Hmm, loco issue??! Now back in the first post I did mention before I could run on DCC I had to fix a solder oops on the underside of the PC board. It was pins 4 and 5 where the solder joints were merged so left rail was going directly to the left motor, glad I found that before I smoked the thing! Anyway, could some continued voltage leakage be causing the excessive heating up? It's certainly a messy solder job on this board.

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
I have also just tried running this decoder, sound on in another loco and it went round and round quite happily with no problems, put it back in the K4 and it over heated. Hmm, loco issue??! Now back in the first post I did mention before I could run on DCC I had to fix a solder oops on the underside of the PC board. It was pins 4 and 5 where the solder joints were merged so left rail was going directly to the left motor, glad I found that before I smoked the thing! Anyway, could some continued voltage leakage be causing the excessive heating up? It's certainly a messy solder job on this board.

Dan

Confession is always good for the soul. lol
That could be the issue.
Use a fine tip conical 40 watt soldering iron and solder wick to clean up the mess. Then do a good soldering job. If this takes care of the issue, make sure to let everyone know in the other forums.
Check with your ohm meter between the two terminals. Rail pickup to motor lead has killed more than one decoder.

If you have a magnifier or Optivisor check carefully. A strand of wire might still linger.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 05:02:27 PM
I meant the soldering from the factory is a bit of a mess, I haven't soldered anything apart from the speaker wires. Now, let me see.............
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 25, 2012, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 05:02:27 PM
I meant the soldering from the factory is a bit of a mess, I haven't soldered anything apart from the speaker wires. Now, let me see.............

Is this loco new from the factory or maybe modified by a previous user?
I have not run into a poor solder connection on a Bachmann but it may have happened.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 05:33:35 PM
It's supposed to be new from the factory and in looks to be in my opinion. I did get it at what I thought to be a pretty good price at the Greenburg show this weekend, but it was from a stand I have bought from before, a business rather than a private seller. I can't see any evidence of modification.
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: blf on March 25, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
Richg: Thank you for the circuit site. I have been wondering where I could find something like this for a long time. This is one of the issues that has caused me to keep putting off some of the projects on the shelf. This brings the EM-1 project front and center . Halleuyah. Bill
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on March 26, 2012, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Cooped on March 25, 2012, 05:33:35 PM
It's supposed to be new from the factory and in looks to be in my opinion. I did get it at what I thought to be a pretty good price at the Greenburg show this weekend, but it was from a stand I have bought from before, a business rather than a private seller. I can't see any evidence of modification.

Again, let everyone know what you eventually find out. This seems to be a new issue with the Tsunami that I and others have not seen before. The loco current seems fine.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 27, 2012, 07:02:11 AM
Don't worry Rich, I will keep everyone up to date.

As recommended by members of another forum I removed the PCB completely last night and hard wired the decoder. Firstly I was quite pleased with myself for just having done that, it being my first real soldering job. All ran fine for a couple of minutes, until ...... :'( it iver heated again.

I was wondering then why it would work ok in one loco but not this one. The only thing I can think of right now is the position I had the decoder in the other loco it was wedged up against the chunky metal chassis so it could be I still need to work on a heat sink (it was out in the open air when I tested after hard wiring it in).

I'm going to contact Soundtraxx today anyway, see what they say.

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 27, 2012, 08:40:54 PM
Had a response from Sountraxx who are recommending an aluminium heat sink with heat sink grease. Having run the loco for a while tonight I think I can see that although it overheats regardless of whether the lights or sound is on, but it happens faster and taskes longer to cool down with the sound on.

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 28, 2012, 07:16:30 AM
It was bothering me that I seemed to be able to run the decoder in another loco with no apparent problems. Having realized that the position I was able to fit the decoder was wedged in a spot where it was in contact with the metal chassis (probably a pretty good heat sink) I tried in another other loco this morning and it over heated. It certainly seems to be the sound that is the major culprit though. It was running fine just chuffing away, then I pressed function 2 for the long whistle and hey presto, over heat. I checked the speaker spec and it's 1 watt (8 ohm as said before) which ought to be ok right? It's sold by Railmaster Hobbies (DLG-8) for Soundtraxx decoders.

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on March 29, 2012, 08:24:09 PM
Got it to overheat tonight in the loco that appeared to run ok........... added aluminium foil heat sink, still overheated. Factory reset as suggested as a last resort by Soundtraxx, overheated. I'm done, sending it back to Soundtraxx, now all I have to do is get the dealer I bought it from to give me a receipt! Perils of buying at shows. Reputable dealer with a website etc so I don't think it will be a problem.

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Rod in PA on April 14, 2012, 05:33:48 PM
Dan,
I just opened the tender of my K4 with the intention of installing a TSU 1000.  The tender is DCC ready (light board with an NMRA socket), also a 1" molded speaker mounting hole in the bottom.  My problem is I don't have enough room to squeeze in the decoder.  The closest I get is to place it under the coal load at an angle, but the shell just doesn't close properly.

How or where did you mount the decoder in your tender?  Did you have to do any cutting or filing inside the tender to get it to fit?  Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  I hope I don't have the same problems with this decoder that you had.

Thanks again,
Rod in PA
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 15, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
Hi Rod

I certainly had to do some surgery and removed one of the weights. Even then with the speaker it was a tight fit. I'm on vacation right now, I'll have  a look when I get back to give you  a more detailed explanation of what I did. The decoder is at Soundtraxx right now, when I get it back I plan on tidying up how I had it fitted somewhat, shortening the rather excessive amount of black wire that is supplied in the tender for starters!

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Rod in PA on April 16, 2012, 09:12:01 AM
Thanks Dan, I appreciate the info.

Yesterday I was studying the inside of the tender and removed the forward weight.  That allowed the shell to close with the decoder resting against the side of the tender.  With the weight in place and the decoder resting more against the coal load at an angle, the shell closes to within 1/16th of an inch at that corner of the tender.  I'm thinking that by filing down the top of the weight on the side where the decoder will rest may provide enough room for it.  I don't want to remove the screw post if at all possible.  Any thoughts?

I agree with you about the black wires attached to the light board.  I'm also thinking about shortening them to allow a little more room for the speaker.

Thanks again Dan and enjoy your vacation.  Let me know how you make out with Soundtraxx and your installation efforts.

Rod
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 06:55:15 PM
An update for everyone. I got the decoder back from Soundtraxx yesterday, they fixed a faulty diode. It now works a treat, no sign of any overheating.

For Rod, I'm trying to upload some pictures, didn't work first time so we'll try again. I used a loop of tape to secure the decoder and speaker to the tender sides. I had removed the weight at the front of the tender so these are put towards the front to go in that space. They need to be put as high up the sides as possible to make sure the shell fits snuggly back on the base. I had also removed the pcb board which gave more space at the back, but no need to remove that weight.

I trimmed down the plastic pieces that the screws holding the front weight were in and also trimmed down the rim of the circular area moulded in for a small round speaker.

I stuffed the wires into the back end of the tender shell making sure as best I could they did not block the screw holds to secure the shell back onto the base.

It's definitely a tight fit in there, especially with the size speaker I chose, but it sounds great!

Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 06:58:02 PM
For some reason I can't upload any pictures, it keeps saying the file is full even though I reduced the image size to somewhat less than the 128kb it says. Anyone have any advice on this?

Thanks
Dan
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 25, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
Dan

you need a photobucket account  and you can download from there.
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on April 25, 2012, 08:50:02 PM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 25, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
Dan

you need a photobucket account  and you can download from there.

Common knowledge.
Determine what you need for albums. It gets contagious using Photo Bucket. Copy and paste the fourth item for the photo to the forum. IMG code

http://photobucket.com/

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 09:05:20 PM
(http://[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334097/%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg)[/url]
DSCF5156 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334097/) by cooped3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/79497161@N06/), on Flickr[/img]
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 09:06:28 PM
(http://[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/6968256018/%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/6968256018_de8d1a93a5_s.jpg)[/url]
DSCF5158 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/6968256018/) by cooped3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/79497161@N06/), on Flickr[/img]
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 09:07:18 PM
(http://[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334063/%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7199/7114334063_242d1740a6_s.jpg)[/url]
DSCF5159 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334063/) by cooped3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/79497161@N06/), on Flickr[/img]
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 09:08:35 PM
I did flickr as that's what my dad uses. Pictures aren't showing up, but the links to them work.
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on April 25, 2012, 09:11:33 PM
Quote from: Cooped on April 25, 2012, 09:07:18 PM
(http://[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334063/%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7199/7114334063_242d1740a6_s.jpg)[/url]
DSCF5159 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79497161@N06/7114334063/) by cooped3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/79497161@N06/), on Flickr[/img]

There should be an option to have the photo show up here without anyone having to click on a link and I believe that option shows a larger photo, at least it does for most who use the Photo Bucket account.
No idea about Flicker though. Still looks pretty good.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 26, 2012, 06:42:26 AM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg)[/url]
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Cooped on April 26, 2012, 06:46:34 AM
Ahaa, seems the box on flickr with the code to paste has numerous codes and for some reason I can't just select one. I did the below by pasting all of them then deleting three. Is that what you did Hunt? The large picture is a little blurred compared to the original.
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: Rod in PA on April 26, 2012, 10:30:00 AM
Hi Dan, welcome back.

After my last reply, I decided to shorten the nest of wires in the bottom of the tender.  I removed one at a time, cut about 1 1/2" off each and soldered back.  That went so well that I decided to keep on going.

I removed the front weight and filed about 1/16" off the top left side; that allowed enough room for the decoder to fit between  the coal load and the screw post.  I then soldered an eight pin connector (#801123) to the decoder after shortening the wires by half, and plugged the connector into the light board.

Next, I  installed a 1" speaker (#810054) in the molded area on the floor of the tender. I used a baffle kit (#810110) and speaker gasket (#810119).  The baffle kit comes in several pieces to allow for various heights.  With the limited space, I could only use 1/2 of the recommended height of the baffle, which had me concerned about how this might affect the sound.  Not to worry, the volume and sound quality are still great.  I placed a gasket in the recessed area for the speaker, placed the speaker on top of the gasket, placed one section of the baffle over the speaker using clear RTV to hold it in place, and finally installed the top of baffle again using RTV.  Before doing all this, the speaker needs to be soldered to the decoder.

After letting the RTV set up over night, it was time to close up the tender.  It went together okay, just had to be careful not to pinch any wires between the screw posts.  After connecting the locomotive and tender, it was off to the layout.  I fired up the NCE Power Cab and what an awesome supprise: it worked!  I had to adjust many of the default volume CVs because they were to loud.  Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the product and continue to learn new things about this decoder everytime I look at the manual.  If you have any further questions don't hesitate to ask.

Have a good day,
Rod
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: bapguy on April 26, 2012, 12:50:13 PM
Is there a way to run this loco onDC? It might be some thing as simple as the mechanism binding up. If possible, run the loco in one direction increasing the speed every 10 minutes. Do this for about 1 hour. Run the loco in reverse with the same procedure. Might help. This is a good idea any way to loosen up the lcoc.  Joe.
Title: Re: Bachmann K4 with Soundtraxx TSU 1000
Post by: richg on April 26, 2012, 05:43:09 PM
Quote from: Hunt on April 26, 2012, 04:57:14 PM
An aside...
Cooped
To insert image in a message, place link to image inside BBC image tags. Do not use BBC url tags.


[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg[/img]

Displays
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg)


[img width=215 height=215] http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg[/img]

Displays a re-sized image
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7123/7114334097_aec3f20d1d_s.jpg)
Resizing a jpg image using width and height attributes with the BBC image tags will blur some jpg images.

Get a Photo Bucket account and compare to the account you are using now.

Rich