Took my brand-new Baldwin 4-6-0 out of the box yesterday to give it its first run. As a life-long HO guy I don't have a whole lot of experience with three-rail AC model trains, but I do have some. When I powered up the engine, it seemed to want to run only in reverse. With no rhyme or reason, it occasionally ran forward, and once it started running forward, stopped with a jerk, and started running backward without me doing anything.
Engines from another manufacturer all ran properly, cycling forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward, on the same track with the same transformer, so I'm skeptical that my problem with the ten-wheeler is anything I'm doing--or not doing, although, as I said, I don't have a lot of experience with this type of model train.
As this is my first Williams by Bachmann locomotive, I'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't seem to be operating correctly right out of the box, but rather than end on a negative note, I will also say that I think the engine is a beautiful model. I bought the AT&SF version, as it has the plainest paint scheme and seems a candidate for relettering for the Virginia & Truckee, as the locomotive--thought not the tender--looks close enough for me like V&T engines #26 and #27.
I expect I will be contacting Bachmann Service, but any thoughts or suggestions would still be appreciated.
Thanks!
Hi Jeff,
671 here. I would first check the reverse unit itself for poor or loose connections. The reverser board should have two output jacks built into the board. On single motor locos, only one of the output jacks is plugged into. If you trace that wire harness it goes to powering the electric motor. Right next to that occupied plug receptacle is an unoccupied receptacle. try moving the motor plug from the factory installed jack to the unoccupied jack. Each jack is wired to the small sugar cube sized relay. You may find that this solves your problem if no loose or poor connections are the fault.
The reverser board is a universal design that Williams uses in their locos, either single or dual motor. If you had a dual motor diesel, both jacks would be used. One jack for each motor.
Hope this helps...671
Quote from: 671 on March 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM
Hope this helps...671
Thanks, 671, I appreciate the input.
That reminds me that I neglected to mention that I also made sure the plug on the wire from the tender that plugs into the engine below the cab was properly seated, although I presume that has nothing to do with my problem.
I might just give this a look-see, although, as I mentioned, I don't have much experience with this type of model train--and none with disassembling and reassembling a locomotive--so that I'm reluctant to try to take the engine apart for fear of really bolloxing up the works! :D However, there are some pretty good diagrams on the instruction sheet, so I just might look into this.
Thanks again for your suggestion. :)
Hi Jeff,
671 here again. If you have a "Tether" wire connection between the loco and its' tender, make sure that there is enough slack on that wire tether ( ususally creating an upward loop in the wire solves the problem.) If not the motion between the loco and tender can cause a poor connection.
The tether from the loco to the tender indicates to me that the reverser board is located within the tender.
I have the 773 WbyB Hudson. It has a tether between loco and tender. I experienced similar problems including a damaging derailment due to lack of free play in the tether connection. I was able to pull extra cable from the loco and create an upward loop in the cable. This solved all challenges with my loco tender combo.
Hope this helps...671
Quote from: 671 on March 26, 2012, 03:36:02 PM
Hi Jeff,
671 here again. If you have a "Tether" wire connection between the loco and its' tender, make sure that there is enough slack on that wire tether ( ususally creating an upward loop in the wire solves the problem.) If not the motion between the loco and tender can cause a poor connection.
The tether from the loco to the tender indicates to me that the reverser board is located within the tender.
I have the 773 WbyB Hudson. It has a tether between loco and tender. I experienced similar problems including a damaging derailment due to lack of free play in the tether connection. I was able to pull extra cable from the loco and create an upward loop in the cable. This solved all challenges with my loco tender combo.
Hope this helps...671
I will give that a try!
Here I thought that wire only had something to do with the whistle! :D
Thanks again for your help and suggestions. I appreciate that you took the time to write twice today!
J.B.J.
Well, I just had a nice conversation with a tech support guy in Customer Service. He suggested that the problem with my engine might be that I'm trying to run it with an "underpowered" transformer.
I'm currently running all my O-gauge engines--which, except for the Baldwin ten-wheeler, are all Lionels--with a Lionel CW-80 transformer (and they all run fine, from a couple of "vintage" 4-4-0s from the 1970s and early 1980s to the brand-new "Strasburg" 0-8-0). The gentleman in Bachmann tech support suggested that the Lionel transformer may not be powerful enough. He suggested I need to use Bachmann's O-gauge transformer, product #00233.
I don't mean to second-guess the professional at Bachmann, but if any of you more experienced O-gaugers see this post, I would appreciate "a second opinion." Does this "solution"--a new transformer--make any sense to any of you guys?
I understand that a good source of power is needed for good operation of any model train, but I'd prefer not to invest in a new transformer if this isn't going to solve the problem.
Hi Jeff,
671 here. If you have a friend with a layout with a larger wattage transformer, try your loco on their layout.
If you live near a hobby store, they may be able to run the loco on their layout as a test.
671
I had the same problem some years ago when getting back into the hobby.In my case it was as stated above an under powered transformer.Remember that any lights or other accessories will add to the problem.Many,many years ago Lionel included a more powerful transformer with sets that had whistles or passenger cars so this type of problem has been know for quite a while.
I also agree with 671.
Hi Jeff,
I just read a earlier post by EIS "Williams Berkshire Lionel CW 80 problem"
This may be an answer...671
671 and r0gruth:
Thanks very much for your input. This "O-gauge amateur" really appreciates it! It sounds like this could be the answer, then.
And I'll check out that other post about the Berkshire.
Access to an LHS is an issue for me--one reason why I bought the engine from an eBay dealer with "good stats"--and I'm afraid I don't know anyone who's into O-gauge, but I'll work this out somehow.
Thanks again for your help!
J.B.J.
P.S.: I guess I need to see if I can find out the wattage of the Lionel transformer and compare it to the wattage of the Bachmann transformer. It wouldn't do me any good--would it?--to buy the Bachmann transformer if it's the same wattage as the Lionel?
At this point in my career there are no accessories or lighted buildings or anything like that in the equation. The trains run on a loop of Lionel FasTrack on the floor circling the dining room table. ;D A train of lighted (Lionel) passenger cars coupled to the engine made no difference, either.
I would suggest using a differant transformer before saying that that the reverse unit is bad. The Lionel CW-80 has issues, like you need to know which generation CW-80 you have, as one or two neeed to be wired differently at the output terminals even though the terminals are marked for track useage.
Try using a Lionel KW or ZW with at least 180 watts rating and see what happens with your engine. Could also use an Atlas or MTH or Williams by Bachmann 80 watt transformer.
FYI, the Lionel CW-80 didn't work that well for me at my freind's house with a couple of my Williams engines, had to reverse the wires to the track to make the horn and bell work.
Lee F.
Thanks for that input, phillyreading.
You've given me an idea to at least try, before I invest in another transformer. I didn't know there were "generations" of Lionel transformers. The one I'm using--which, incidentally, runs my new Strasburg R.R. 0-8-0 with no problems--was bought second hand on eBay. It looks fairly new. But I might try the one, so far unused, that came with my new Lionel Rio Grande "General" set.
Otherwise, I guess I will be looking around for a Bachmann transformer.
I kind of have to laugh at myself, you know? Owing to lack of access to a LHS (transportation issues too long and irrelevent to go into here), I bought the engine on eBay at what I thought was a good price. But that price won't be quite so good if I also have to buy a new transformer just to run it. :-\
Live and learn. ... ;D
And, once again, let me thank all you more experienced O-gaugers for your time and input. It's very much appreciated!
J.B.J.
The CW-80 has three differant production codes, one was the first run, next the second run-a little better transformer, the third run is better than the other two. However the CW-80 is very touchy about shorts and over current draw, in otherwords if an engine or train takes too much power the CW-80 throws the breaker.
Most starter sets come with a low watt transformer, mainly so that when you add more lighted cars you need to buy a larger watt transformer.
All transformers have their good points and bad points, if it is real bad, I use it to light up houses or street lights on the layout.
Lee F.
Thanks, Lee. That's good to know. :)
Jeff
I have run W/WBBwth a 75 W MTH transformer AND passenger cars. Thing worked.
Quote from: DominicMazoch on April 01, 2012, 05:27:35 PM
I have run W/WBBwth a 75 W MTH transformer AND passenger cars. Thing worked.
Thanks for the input. :)
I have some research into transformers to do. :)
In the PW era, transformers tened to loose power because of heat. Hence a Lionel 1033/44 said 90W, but over time, it was good for 75.
Modern transformers tend not to loose power as they heat up. Hence Lionel, Atlas, and MTH 75W units can run a W/WBB loco, even though W/WBB recommends 90.
But, if you are running cars with lights, extra wattage is a help. Also, you might want to exchange lights in lighted cars with LED's. Not the light of the PW, but they do run cooler important inside closed bodies, especially plastric. Also, they use less juice per bulb, which increases the range of the transformer.
Quote from: DominicMazoch on April 02, 2012, 01:55:52 PM
In the PW era, transformers tened to loose power because of heat. Hence a Lionel 1033/44 said 90W, but over time, it was good for 75.
Modern transformers tend not to loose power as they heat up. Hence Lionel, Atlas, and MTH 75W units can run a W/WBB loco, even though W/WBB recommends 90.
Well, but which Lionel transformer? That's the issue here, or so I'm being told. My Lionel CW-80 runs my Lionel engines, including my brand-new Strasburg 0-8-0 and Rio Grande 4-4-0, on a small loop of track on the floor around my dining room table :D perfectly well, even with the 0-8-0 pulling five lighted Lionel Madison passenger cars.
On the other hand, my WBB 4-6-0 acts like an engine possessed, only running in reverse, then running forward, then stopping with a jerk and changing direction without me touching the speed control or the reverse button on the transformer. I'm being told that the problem is the transformer, not the E-unit. It makes no difference whether I run the 4-6-0 by itself or pulling a short train (three cars including two lighted Lionel passenger cars).
I'm willing to invest in a Bachmann transformer to see if that makes a difference, but if it doesn't, the engine is going to Bachmann service.
But thanks for the input. I'm learning a lot from you more experienced guys, and I very much appreciate it!
A Lionel transformer from the 1960's would do well, like a 275 watt ZW, and it should run almost every type of engine in regular or conventional mode(non-command control).
The CW-80 works well with modern Lionel but it has some electronic issues when used with other brands, especially MTH PS-2 engines. The CW-80 has a chopped sign wave output, or cut-down AC waves( in laymans terms, you are not getting complete voltage).
So it is best to have at least two different types of transformers, this way you can test your engines on more than one power source to see if the E unit is working right. Most other transformers will work with Williams.
MTH's Z-1000 is very good with Williams engines and has both the bell and whistle/horn buttons.
Lee F.
Quote from: phillyreading on April 04, 2012, 05:03:32 PM
A Lionel transformer from the 1960's would do well, like a 275 watt ZW, and it should run almost every type of engine in regular or conventional mode(non-command control).
The CW-80 works well with modern Lionel but it has some electronic issues when used with other brands, especially MTH PS-2 engines. The CW-80 has a chopped sign wave output, or cut-down AC waves( in laymans terms, you are not getting complete voltage).
So it is best to have at least two different types of transformers, this way you can test your engines on more than one power source to see if the E unit is working right. Most other transformers will work with Williams.
MTH's Z-1000 is very good with Williams engines and has both the bell and whistle/horn buttons.
Lee F.
Thanks, Lee! That's extremely helpful. Thanks for "naming names," so to speak. ;) I'll have to double check the literature with the 4-6-0; I think I remember seeing something somewhere about the sine wave.
Jeff
BTW: Does anybody have any experience with Bachmann's own transformer?
JB Jeff- If your looking for a more powerful transformer without spending a bunch. I have a Lionel TW that's a 175 watt that I'll let go for a good price.
Quote from: stubbsO on April 07, 2012, 11:26:24 AM
JB Jeff- If your looking for a more powerful transformer without spending a bunch. I have a Lionel TW that's a 175 watt that I'll let go for a good price.
Thank you for the offer but I think I need to take a pass on it. But I'm obliged for your thoughtfulness.
J.B.J.
Well, we will just have to wait and see how this goes.
I have just ordered Bachmann's own AC transformer, #00233.
Seems to me, the transformer Bachmann sells ought to run a WBB locomotive.
If the locomotive still doesn't run properly with the Bachmann transformer, then I think I will be sending the locomotive to Customer Service. I really don't know what else to do. I'm a very casual O-gauge railroader, and I'm not going to buy transformers willy-nilly until I find one that runs this 4-6-0 properly.
I really hope that the Williams transformer solves your problem with the E-unit!
A little info about another brand, MTH, I had to buy a Z-1000 to run the MTH PS-2, or Proto Sound 2, engines with. Brand "L" transformer would make the MTH engine act crazy.
It seems like the more the O gauge market gets into electronics and command control, the more complicated things become. Each company needs it's own transformer or set of electronics to operate it's product or bad results happen, anything from not having something work to the horn or whistle blowing constantly.
Lee F.
Quote from: phillyreading on April 23, 2012, 07:25:22 AM
I really hope that the Williams transformer solves your problem with the E-unit!
Thanks!
QuoteA little info about another brand, MTH, I had to buy a Z-1000 to run the MTH PS-2, or Proto Sound 2, engines with. Brand "L" transformer would make the MTH engine act crazy.
It seems like the more the O gauge market gets into electronics and command control, the more complicated things become. Each company needs it's own transformer or set of electronics to operate it's product or bad results happen, anything from not having something work to the horn or whistle blowing constantly.
Lee F.
Oi! :o
Seriously, thanks for the good wish, and I hope this solves the problem, too. I don't mean to come off as a sour customer, because I really think the 4-6-0 is a beautiful model engine--I wouldn't have bought it if I thought otherwise. But, as I said, one would hope that a Bachmann transformer will run a Bachmann engine, and if it doesn't, the engine will have to go to Customer Service.
Well, the WBB transformer arrived yesterday, and after church today I set up a loop of track (Lionel FasTrack) around the dining room table.
My ten-wheeler will run forward reliably powered by the WBB transformer.
As long as I don't blow the whistle.
Or ring the bell.
Or turn the speed control higher than the 50% marking on the dial. :-\
This is getting both ridiculous and frustrating--frustrating because the engine doesn't work properly--period--and frustrating because things don't malfunction reliably. By that I mean, for example, blowing the whistle actually throws the engine into reverse :D --but not always. Same thing for ringing the bell. (And I have to say I think the engine has a beautifully authentic-sounding whistle, and the bell sounds nice, too.)
The only "reliable" malfunction is that if I turn the speed control knob higher than 50%, the engine will jerk to a halt, jump into reverse, almost immediately jump back into forward, and continue this outrageous back-and-forth maneuvering until I turn the speed knob below 50%.
I give up. As I've written before, I am a very casual O-gauge railroader, encouraged to branch out from my lifetime in HO by some of the really beautiful equipment that I'm now seeing in O gauge--including this ten-wheeler.
I expect tomorrow I will call Customer Service again, just to make sure it's OK for me to send the engine to Bachmann. But I have to say this will probably be my first and last WBB locomotive. I have heard wonderful things about Bachmann Customer Service, and I'm confident my problems with this engine can be resolved, but, I have to say, when I pay almost $200 for a model locomotive, regardless of scale, I expect it to work properly right out of the box, and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, even though I know that isn't always the case.
My advice would be to hold judgement about future WBB engines until after your problem is resolved.
Just before Christmas and after I made some purchases of WBB Locomotives and Diesel Engines.
I have a 1950's ZW and 2 of those CW-80's from a Polar Express set and a El Capitan Set. Most of what
I bought ran well. But I did have a problem with a couple of the units I bought. When I finally connected with Customer
Service I found them very helpful and eager to help me resolve the issues I was experiencing.
When some of the suggestions didn't work out they wanted me to send the units back for them to look at and
repair. So I have done that and should be having my units returned to me in a few more weeks.
I am really impressed with the quality of their products and how they are so thoughtfully packaged right down
to the red ribbons and high quality boxes which are meant to last from one generation to another.
The other factor is the affordability which I really appreciate. With 5 kids and a whole lot of other expenses its nice
knowing my son and I can add a couple of extra engines and we won't blow the budget!!!
Best wishes
I wanted to add the CW-80's are quite not that powerful so like many have mentioned, I do experience
engine slow down when I activate Bell and Whistle sounds, it's noticeable but not a big enough deal for
me to get all excited about. I can live with it for now and will eventually pick up a WBB BIG Transformer.
I did hook my ZW at one point but couldn't get any of the rail sounds to work. So I went back to using the
CW-80's
If anyone has any suggestions please let me know!!!!!!!!!1
I would use the Williams or Atlas 80 watt transformer before using the CW-80. The CW-80 throws the circuit breaker too quick as well as not having enuff power.
With the older Williams engines, before Bachmann, you may need to start at a lower power setting and wait a few seconds for the sound to kick in. Also with the postwar ZW's, you do not push the whistle control all the way, sometimes only two/thirds of the way and hold for a couple of seconds.
Lee F.
Quote from: M1FredQ on April 29, 2012, 10:16:12 PM
My advice would be to hold judgement about future WBB engines until after your problem is resolved.
The folks at Bachmann with whom I have had previous contact have all been friendly and helpful and came across as genuinely interested in helping a customer (me) resolve a problem. But I'm afraid I consider great customer service to be beside my point that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a $200-engine to work properly out of the box.
I've been very happy with the Bachmann Spectrum HO engines I've bought, specifically the Richmond 4-4-0; the only problem I had with getting my 4-4-0 up and running right out of the box was me not having the plug pushed in far enough :D (not the problem with my WBB ten-wheeler). My On30 2-6-0 is a beautiful model that ran like butter right out of the box. I'm not here to trash Bachmann--as a matter of fact, this weekend I just bought an On30 Porter--or even WBB, but after this experience with the ten-wheeler, I expect that I will be sticking with Lionel if or when I make another purchase of an O-gauge locomotive.
My experience is that my six Lionel locomotives--even the "vintage" ones that were lying around somewhere since the 1970s and 1980s before I bought them--all worked fine right out of the box. My one WBB engine is a problem. Maybe I just got the one bum engine in a batch of perfect locomotives, but given my "numerical experience" in O gauge, which O-gauge manufacturer would inspire more confidence in you to part with hard-earned dollars?
(BTW, I like the WBB transformer, and it ran at least one of my Lionel locomotives just fine.)
J. B. Jeff,
Sorry to say but I think you have a bad reverse board. From what you are claiming the new engine does, even with the WBB transformer, it is not doing correctly from when you recieved the engine.
See if Bachmann will let you send it in for repair under warrenty, because I feel it is a problem you can not fix but Bachmann can fix.
I would be a bit dis-appointed as well if something that I bought new didn't work properly from when I first bought it.
Lee F.
Quote from: phillyreading on May 01, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
J. B. Jeff,
Sorry to say but I think you have a bad reverse board. From what you are claiming the new engine does, even with the WBB transformer, it is not doing correctly from you recieved the engine.
See if Bachmann will let you send it in for repair under warrenty, because I feel it is a problem you can not fix but Bachmann can fix.
I would be a bit dis-appointed as well if something that I bought new didn't work properly from when I first bought it.
Lee F.
Thanks, Lee. As someone who is only casually into O gauge, I appreciate having confirmation of my suspicions from someone with more experience.
Since I posted yesterday I looked back through my e-mails, and I discovered that I had one from Customer Service with instructions on sending in the engine, so I may just go ahead and do that without bothering the folks at Bachmann with another phone call. I have already made a photocopy of my receipt from the seller dated March 21.
J.B.J.
I too think there may be a board problem or loose wire. For most Williams engines, there is a wire running up both sides of the motor and over into the motor as it passes under the flywheel. Because the flywheel is sometimes pushed down too far it can rub through one, or both of the wires and short out the motor causing the symptoms you describe. Be sure to look there. Williams engine generally run excellent without problems right out of the box. But keep in mind that they are built in the same factories in China and others are having problems with their models too because there is NO quality control there. Lionel has has many problems lately.
Ron
Quote from: Ron Sims on May 01, 2012, 08:10:11 PM
I too think there may be a board problem or loose wire. For most Williams engines, there is a wire running up both sides of the motor and over into the motor as it passes under the flywheel. Because the flywheel is sometimes pushed down too far it can rub through one, or both of the wires and short out the motor causing the symptoms you describe. Be sure to look there. Williams engine generally run excellent without problems right out of the box. But keep in mind that they are built in the same factories in China and others are having problems with their models too because there is NO quality control there. Lionel has has many problems lately.
Ron
Thanks for those thoughts, Ron. As a casual and amateur O-gauge railroader at this time I really don't want to get involved in disassembling the engine and tender myself. Since the engine was bought in late March, I plan on sending it to Bachmann, I hope within a week.
J.B.J.
Well, I've now sent the engine to Bachmann Customer Service, so we'll see what happens. :)
Literally moments ago, I got off the telephone with Customer Service. It seems I do have a "bad order" engine, and the problem has stumped even Bachmann's tech people. They simply cannot figure out what is wrong with my ten-wheeler--though at least I now know it's not because I'm too dumb to operate it. ;) But whatever it is, it can't be resolved by simply replacing the E-unit.
They will be replacing the engine. Unfortunately, they can't replace it with another AT&SF unit; my choices were U.P. or Southern, so I requested a U.P. engine.
Still, I am grateful to Customer Service for trying--and also for trying so promptly to resolve the problem. And I also very much appreciate the offer to replace the engine.
So that seems to be how this is ending.
Couldn't they switch the shells on the new frames? ???
Quote from: TrainmanGene on August 04, 2012, 12:36:02 AM
Couldn't they switch the shells on the new frames? ???
That's a very good question. I wish I'd thought of it when I was talking to Customer Service.
You would think that if they took the engine apart to try to fix the problem, they could have put the shell on the chassis of a new engine. But maybe there is a reason that it wouldn't be that simple.
Too late now for me. :-\