Bachmann Online Forum

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: CNE Runner on April 16, 2012, 04:23:17 PM

Title: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 16, 2012, 04:23:17 PM
Thanks to Desertdweller for the suggestion of this thread. We effectively 'hijacked' the Track Cleaning thread on the HO board and [probably] need to walk down Memory Lane here. I'll start:

Do you remember: Athearn Hi-F drive? How about flex track that had brass rails, fiber ties...and the two were stapled together? Did you have Atlas controllers 'daisy-chained' together? The HO Model Railroad that Grows book?

For more on these 'memories' (and others) check out Track Cleaning on the HO board.

As I mentioned on the other thread, my dad and I actually constructed the Great Northern Pacific (as it was called in the HO Model Railroad...) - through construction of the fold-down yard. I remember our station was the Revell Mainline Station that is still available on eBay (nope, just slapped the thing together...including the gray plastic people...as patience eluded that eleven year old). Dad managed to 'commandeer' an old kitchen table from one of the neighbors (one of those that had a porcelainized steel top) for our 'bench work'. This worked fine until we needed to do some wiring. Wiring was extremely difficult as we laid the 4'x 8' plywood directly on the table (no space underneath...live and learn). 'Had many of hours of fun running that line. How many of you remember making trees out of twisted wire/clay/lichen?

The only thing I kept from my original O-gauge (Lionel of course) set was the 224E locomotive and tender. I don't know what happened to the other cars.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 16, 2012, 05:08:05 PM
Probably happened because many of us graduated from high school without the benefit of Google and Wikipedia.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 16, 2012, 06:26:55 PM
I commented on some of those memories on the former thread.  Yes to Hi-F drive (my first HO loco). Remember the fiber tie track too.  Our orignal club layout had a ton of it laid down.  The club also used screen wire and Permascene for the scenery (really didn't like that stuff).  My first layout was about 6 x 8, which meant having an access hole in the middle.  The control panel was dual cab control with DPDT block switches and an MRC Dual Loco power pack.  At about the time I finished junior college (in 1965) the roster IIRC consisted of:  Mantua Pacific; Hi-F PRR F-7; Olympia Ma & Pa 4-6-0 (first brass - $29.95); Athearn Little Monster 0-4-2; Athearn USRA 0-6-0; Ken Kidder 0-4-0T HOn3 Mudhen (brass - $9.95!); Gem EBT 2-8-2.  Only thing left from those early days is the EBT Mike. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 16, 2012, 09:44:44 PM
Brass for $29.95 and $9.95?!?!?  :o Thud!

I guess I'm just a (comparatively) young whippersnapper (I'll be 54 in three weeks). By the time I came along brass was a lot more expensive than that.

My grandparents got me my first HO set when I was so little I literally and seriously cannot remember not having it. It was a Revell U.P. 0-6-0T with a pulpwood flat car, a flat car with a log load, and a caboose--I still have the set, though I had to replace the log car (via eBay). I've been in HO all my life, and it's only now, in middle age, that I've expanded a bit, adding some larger scales to my model railroading, with a small roster of O-gauge rolling stock, and also a few pieces in On30.

And thanks to Ray for starting this thread.  :)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: RAM on April 16, 2012, 10:25:18 PM
What kind of drive did Athearn Little Monster 0-4-2; Athearn USRA 0-6-0 have?
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 17, 2012, 12:22:33 AM
Thank you Ray for starting this thread!

My N-scale model railroad, although it uses E-Z Track track and turnouts for all mainline and major secondary tracks,
is really very "old school".  Any model railroader from the 1950's would understand it immediately.

My trains are all controlled by one MRC 2800 Tech II dual pack.  This pack has smooth electronic throttles and individual pilot lights and overload lights.  It has a circuit breaker that resets automatically.  It has its own on-off switch and has operated silently and perfectly for 25 years.

Three other power packs are used.  Two are Bachmanns with "wall warts".  These power my turntable drives and engine terminal switches.  The third is an ancient Bachmann pack that powers all my other turnouts.

All power packs are plugged into a pair of power strips with surge protectors.  One strip is plugged into the other, so all power to the layout can be turned on/off with a single switch.  The red pilot lamps on the Bachmann power packs conveniently show if the power is turned on.

DC block control is handled by 11 Atlas Selectors, ganged in groups of two and three on four control panels.
I have a panel for my mainline blocks and turnouts; a panel for my passenger terminal blocks and turnouts, and two panels for block and turnout controls for my three engine terminals.

All 40 turnouts are powered and remote controlled.  28 of these are E-Z Track turnouts.  The rest are Atlas.
Turnout control switches are ganged on each control panel.
Two of my three engine terminals have their own turntables.  I used Atlas powered turntables.  I used an Atlas Controller for each turntable, but, since these tables use an auto-reversing feature, the controllers are not really needed.

I use a third Atlas Controller for my reverse loop.  It is really needed here.

Some of my loco parking tracks have killable sections for loco parking.  I made my own controls for these, using small SPST slide switches from Radio Shack, mounted in Radio Shack Project Boxes.

DCC was ruled out by me, as I have over 60 operable locomotives, many of which were made before DCC technology and therefore could not be used with DCC without a lot of work, including milling frames for installing receivers.  I feel a lot more comfortable with DC anyway, as I've expressed in other postings.

My railroad's track arrangement is old school, too.  It is basically a double-track dogbone.  The rearmost main line in the rear of the layout is hidden behind a view block.  The inner mainline loop feeds into my double-ended passenger terminal.  It also serves my three small yards and engine terminals.

One of my engine terminals consists of a single, double track run through engine house and a small yard along side it.  Another engine terminal uses a six-stall Atlas roundhouse and turntable, and three open "garden tracks".  There is a small yard there, too.

My third engine terminal is a large shop complex.  There is a single-track backshop with its own track off the mainline.  This is a Walthers "Locomotive Rebuilders" building.  The main loco shop consists of two Kato two stall "long engine houses" side by side.  One of the buildings has a run-through track leading to the Atlas turntable out back.  This is the only track serving the turntable, as it is used only for turning equipment.
The fourth building is a Walthers Car Shop, a three-track building.  Two of the tracks are run-through, connected to the small yard in front.  The third track is a non-powered stub that is used to hold wheel sets and trucks.

A small foundry adjoins the backshop track.  There is one more spur track that runs alongside the car shop.  It is used to store a short passenger train.

My passenger station is the centerpiece of the railroad.  It uses a Walthers "Union Station", with Heljan brick "Country Stations" kitbashed into wing additions on either side of the main terminal building.

Two stub tracks serve the terminal opposite the main line and platform tracks.  One serves the dining car commissary and REA building, both Walthers kits.  The other stub serves the terminal mail annex, a modified Walthers furniture factory.  The far end of this stub track is used for business car parking.

The reverse loop is inside the dogbone at the right end of the layout.  Although the terminal is a run-through design, no trains operate right through it.  Trains enter the terminal either from the north or the south, turn on the reverse loop, and depart in the direction they arrive from.  This is prototypical for the operation I am modeling (Denver Union Station).

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 17, 2012, 09:22:03 AM
QuoteDCC was ruled out by me, as I have over 60 operable locomotives, many of which were made before DCC technology.

That's sort of my position in HO. I've got fifty years' worth of DC locomotives, many of which have sentimental value or are otherwise dearly loved.

Of course, I've also got fifty years' worth of rolling stock with horn-hook couplers, but that's another matter. ...  :D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: phillyreading on April 17, 2012, 09:46:45 AM
I got a minor start in H.O. about 12 years ago, and I don't forsee going to DCC at anytime in the future, too expensive for me. >:( Also still use some horn & hook couplers in H.O.

Going to DCS in O gauge was enuff major league expense for me, $300.00 or so for the base & handheld remote then another $80.00 for the accessory device to control switches and signals by remote control. MTH sells all their engines with PS-2 in O gauge, so you just have to buy the remote control unit.
Also with DCS and TMCC in O gauge trains, you need to supply almost full voltage from your transformer to use the command control. If you have an accidental crossing of a command control engine onto a non-powered siding you will have an accident if you have an engine parked on the siding that is non command control. >:( ???
That is why I still prefer conventional running with my trains.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 17, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
It was so obvious that I had forgotten about X2F (hook-horn) couplers. On the Great Northern Pacific I remember using plaster-soaked newspaper over balled (and taped down) newspaper. Once the plaster-soaked paper dried, one removed the supporting 'balls' of paper...'worked quite well as I remember.

My first locomotive was the Lil' Hustler (still available today from Model Power). I think my 'version' was made by Tyco; but I'm not sure. I do remember that it only picked up power on one axle (it had two) - so stalling was a constant problem. I recollect that little switcher could only haul a couple of cars...and on the flat at that.

During my junior high years, my parents bought me a Varney Consolidation locomotive kit. This was 'way beyond the abilities of a 12-year old and required the assistance of my father (who had been a machinist earlier in life). I seem to remember that it ran fairly well (anything ran well compared to that Lil' Hustler).

As mentioned, in the other forum location, much of the scenery was grass mat (which looked like a miniature golf 'fairway'). What trees there were had to be handmade from twisted bits of wire, clay, and lichen. We had a good supply of lichen growing on the edge of our woodlot; so that wasn't a problem. What was a problem was the fact that we neglected to soak the first batch in glycol antifreeze. Lichen gets very stiff and will disintegrate unless soaked in glycol...I remember having to clean all the 'lichen dust' off the layout before installing new (glycol soaked) material.

Many of us, 'in the day', left model railroading as our interests turned to other pursuits (girls and cars...not necessarily in that order). I sold the layout to another friend and didn't get involved with model railroading until the early 1980s - when I had an almost 20-year 'fling' with tin plate collecting (Lionel, K-Line, MTH, Williams).

After retirement (in 2000), I quickly realized that I would never have the space for a tin plate layout and sold the majority of my [rather extensive] collection at auction. Believe it or not, we still are selling the remaining few pieces (and one remaining set) at train shows.

In 2004 I built a fold-down layout in our garage (the Sweet Haven Harbor) in HO scale and began amassing rolling stock. Within 3 years or so I was fed up with the troubles I was experiencing with turnouts from a large train retailer and decided to tear the entire layout up. From the 'wreckage' of the Sweet Haven Harbor came the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut that was loosly based on a railroad that crossed my dad's farm (torn up in the late 1930s)...and constructed using Peco turnouts.

Dealing with the climatic conditions in the garage - as well as the constant setting up and taking down of the layout made model railroading difficult at best. I folded up the ND&C one last time and walked away (it is still hanging on the garage wall - needing only a cleaning and a hook up of the DCC controller). Carl Arendt's website served as an inspiration for the Monks' Island Railway and I haven't looked back.

Do you remember those books of printed structure pictures (much like paper dolls)? One carefully cut out a structure, glued it to some card stock (read: cereal box) and assembled/glued it into a structure for ones layout. I remember my layout sporting a paper water tank (my dad made a spout out of welding rod that one could, carefully, move up and down to 'water' a steam locomotive).

'Lots of memories after 67 years. Keep 'em coming,
Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Len on April 17, 2012, 11:00:23 AM
What I remember from back when (mid-70's) was my first "High End" (at least for those times) power pack.

It was an MRC Control Master X, with the old style copper/bronze outer case. It had direct or "flywheel" drive, with variable momentum control, a built in reverse loop switch, a circuit protector, as well as overload lights and an emergency stop switch. It had a transistor type output, rather than a rheostat, so it worked with newer motors as well as the old open frame style. The coolest thing was the outer shell could be flipped, so  you could mount the unit on top of, or under the table edge, and the labels would be rightside up, and readable, either way. I really loved that built in reverse loop switch.

Len
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 17, 2012, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 17, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
It was so obvious that I had forgotten about X2F (hook-horn) couplers.

I know those couplers are frequently reviled, but I suppose "in their day" they must have been an improvement--at least appearance-wise--over the old Mantua "hook and loop" variety; you still some of those from time to time on really vintage stock on eBay.

QuoteDuring my junior high years, my parents bought me a Varney Consolidation locomotive kit. This was 'way beyond the abilities of a 12-year old and required the assistance of my father (who had been a machinist earlier in life). I seem to remember that it ran fairly well (anything ran well compared to that Lil' Hustler).

I understand Varney engines were good locomotives in their day.

QuoteAs mentioned, in the other forum location, much of the scenery was grass mat (which looked like a miniature golf 'fairway').

And how about "mountain paper"? You made it wet and crumpled it up and supposedly you could shape it any way you wanted and it would stay.  I've still got an unused roll of that stuff stuck in a closet somewhere.  :D

QuoteFrom the 'wreckage' of the Sweet Haven Harbor came the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut that was loosly based on a railroad that crossed my dad's farm (torn up in the late 1930s)...and constructed using Peco turnouts.

Dealing with the climatic conditions in the garage - as well as the constant setting up and taking down of the layout made model railroading difficult at best. I folded up the ND&C one last time and walked away (it is still hanging on the garage wall - needing only a cleaning and a hook up of the DCC controller). Carl Arendt's website served as an inspiration for the Monks' Island Railway and I haven't looked back.

I remember you writing posts about the ND&C on this forum. For some reason I'm glad to know you haven't scrapped it.  :)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 17, 2012, 12:59:43 PM
The Athearn Little Monster and USRA 0-6-0 both had gear drives, using the same motor that was in the Hi-F diesels.  The Little Monster was a very poor design.  As an 0-4-2, it had the motor in the back of the cab, which made it tail-heavy.  To compensate (sort-of), the designers put a piece of phosphor bronze spring material between the trailing truck and the engine frame to counter-balance the motor weight. You can imagine what that did to the pulling power :(.  The 0-6-0 was actually not a bad loco for its time and price.  I am told that Atheran tried to make their B&M Pacific as a Hi-F drive model, and a very few may have made it to market.  That didn't work out at all, and they redesigned it with a gear drive, probably similar to the 0-6-0.  I've only ever seen two of these Pacifics, both in one collection.  BTW, the Varney Old Lady and Casey Jones were decent models in their original kit format.  The models were identical except for the mechanism (2-8-0 vs. 4-6-0).  I once took a Casey Jones mech, cut off the frame ahead of the center driver and built a new frame extension, and bashed up a 4-4-0 using the Kemtron Wabash Mogul parts.  Wonder whatever happened to that? 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: mhampton on April 17, 2012, 01:31:22 PM
The oldest train I have any memory of owning was an old Marx set that ran on 027 track.  The cars were stamped sheet metal and the locomotive (seems to me it was an 0-4-0) & tender were plastic.  Nothing close to any real scale, but cherished memories none the less.  I'm not sure whatever became of it, but I probably ran it to death.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 17, 2012, 03:43:15 PM
My first toy train set was also a Marx.  It was a pair of Southern Pacific F-units (one a dummy), 3 or 4 cars and a caboose, all lithoed metal.  A few years later I graduated to an American Flyer S scale set with a New Haven Pacific and standard heavyweight passenger cars.  All that stuff is long gone. 

On the subject of couplers - When I started in HO the horn-hook couplers were the train set standard.  I used them for a number of years until the club I was a member of convinced my to go with Kadees.  I saw a lot of equipment that still used the old Mantua loop-and-hook, which was sort of the de facto coupler standard in the '40's and early '50's.  Quite a few modelers just used dummy couplers.  They at least looked prototypical.  This was in an era when many folks were content just to get the trains to run reliably.  Real operation was the province of a very few.  Operations pioneers John Allen and Whit Towers, among others, used the Baker coupler.  This was another loop-and-hook style that was a little less fussy than the Mantua.  Neither of them looked anything like a real coupler.  It took Kadee to make a reliable working coupler that looked like the prototype. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 17, 2012, 07:07:42 PM
I had an Athern Hustler.  I think the Hustler and the RDC were the last Athern models to use the rubber band drive.

The RDC was a lot better performer than the Hustler.  Although the Hustler was a diminutive 4-wheel design, the motor was just as big and powerful as in any Athern unit.  Coupled with the Hi-F drive, it gave a power-to-weight ratio about the same as a Sidewinder Missile.  This was very unfortunate for a locomotive intended for low speed switching.

I built an unusual loco out of a pair of AHM 0-4-0ST Docksiders.  I had to move the motor to the opposite end of the frame.  This reversed the direction of the worm, so I had to reverse the motor wires, too.  Then I took the from from the second 0-4-0, and mounted it on a pivot in the front part of the powered frame.  This resulted in a 0-4-4-0ST.

Horn-hook couplers were an attempt by the NMRA to develop an industry standard coupler.  In the 1950's, car manufacturers either equipped their cars with proprietary designs that would only mate with like couplers, or just left couplers out of the kit and let the modeler choose, buy, and install whatever type they liked.

Horn-hook couplers were made to common dimensions, so in theory they could all mate with each other.  In reality, each manufacturer used their own materials and production methods, and the couplers would not work together well at all.  A major problem was different systems of springing the couplers to center them.
They looked nothing like real couplers, but could uncouple using mechanical ramps.  They depended on side force to stay coupled, so did not perform well.  They worked best if all couplers in a train were made by the same company, something that seldom happened.

Horn-hook couplers were an unpatented, common design, adapted by the manufacturers voluntarily.  The KayDee knuckle couplers, which did work well, were protected by patents which did not expire until sometime around ten years ago.  So, the many knuckle coupler designs on the market now could not be sold until the KayDee patents ran out.  KayDee was able to protect their market until then.  Some manufacturers did offer Kaydee couplers on their equipment as an extra-cost option.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 17, 2012, 08:00:43 PM
I have two sets of Marx 0-27 with 0-4-0 that I use to run at Christmas. Those all metal are really loud. I run the plastic 1970's Lionel at Christmas now.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 18, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
I have a Marx 0-27 set given to me in the early 80's by one of my dad's friends. Don't know how old it is but it still works! I have an S-gauge set from the early 50's that my brother had gotten for X-Mas when he was a youngster. And I have the Lionel set that got me started in model RRing.

I was never into HO growing up so over the years had aquired a lot of O. Having watching the HO scale evolve into DCC over the last couple of year's I decided to read up on this. I am one who likes's to tinker and never turn down a good challenge. I just turned 50 going on 10 again.

I have been building my first HO layout for about 2 years ( took a while to sell off most of my O stuff) and it has been a blast. Everything is Bachmann issue except one loco.

Many thanks go out to the "Old Timer's" on this board which has helped me and other's convert to HO or just simply get started. You guy's are the best even though some may have different opinion's every now and then.

Jerry
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 18, 2012, 09:15:04 AM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 18, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
I just turned 50 going on 10 again.

I like that way of thinking.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 18, 2012, 11:20:43 AM
i grew up in a family of railfans and model railroaders. my grandfather once showed me a double slip switch he'd built back in the late 1940s. he used cardboard for ties, and bird gravel for ballast. there was also something called midlin track. it was a system of handlaying track which used rails with a flange on the bottom. you could buy balsa wood ties with grooves cut into them for the rail flanges. it made laying your track almost as easy as using flex track.

http://americanoo.blogspot.com/2008/06/midlin-track.html

i guess i am an old head now, i'm 47, but have been in the hobby my whole life. but the true old timers, the ones modelling around ww2 or sooner, were craftsmen. they had to build everything, usually from scratch. and they were an ingenious lot we could learn so much from, if they were still with us. fortunately, we have the old model magazines with their articles on building your own locomotives and buildings.

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 18, 2012, 01:10:50 PM
One of the true great craftsmen of the '40's and early '50's was Mel Thornburgh.  He was a B&O fan, and wrote a number of construction articles on scratch-building locomotives using most common tools.  In those pre-lost wax days, a lot of detail parts were made by turning down brass rod.  Those with a lathe could do the job fairly easily, but Mel used a standard hand-cranked drill.  Chuck the rod in the bit, clamp the drill in a vise and start cranking.  Small files were used to shape the piece.  Tedious, yes.  But for those folks making $100 a week, it was what you did.  A couple of Mel's models are featured in the B&O Musuem in Baltimore. 

Something else to spark some memories - U.S. OO scale.  HO and OO sort of duked it out for supremacy in the late '30's and '40's.  Lionel had line of OO models including a very nice NYC Hudson.  U.S. OO (double-oh) had a track gauge correct to the scale, unlike OO in the UK which used (and still uses, in large measure) HO gauge track.  Although OO was essentially gone by the early '60's, its vestiges linger on.  The track gauge was 3/4", which O scale modelers of that period recognized as 3 foot narrow gauge in 1/4" scale.  If you look on an NMRA standards gauge today, it still says OO/On3. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: phillyreading on April 18, 2012, 04:03:01 PM
Years ago, around the 1940's and 50's you had to build a lot of stuff by hand, most buildings were out of reach of the common man because of high prices.

A place that has handbuilt houses and other O gauge size buildings is "Roadside America" in Shartlesville PA, near Hamburg and Allentown, and is open to the public.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 18, 2012, 05:52:00 PM
One of the great things, about threads such as this one, is that it gets the 'memory juices' flowing. After telling of my first locomotive being an Athearn Little Hustler [Desertdweller, I laughed when you compared the Little Hustler to a Sidewinder missile...so true, so true.] I decided to do a 'Google' search to see if I could find any pictures of the beast. Lo, and behold, I not only found a picture/description; but the picture was an exact image of the model I once had.
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/LittleHustler.jpg)
I remember replacing the rubber bands with ones gotten from my orthodontist's office as they were the same size. As Desertdweller mentioned with a top speed of 200+ mph, this was a poor choice as a switching locomotive.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 19, 2012, 09:30:03 AM
Quote from: phillyreading on April 18, 2012, 04:03:01 PM
A place that has handbuilt houses and other O gauge size buildings is "Roadside America" in Shartlesville PA, near Hamburg and Allentown, and is open to the public.

Lee F.

Is "Roadside America" still around? My mom and dad took me to see that when I was a boy in the '60s. We visited "Roadside America" on our way home from taking a ride on the steam train of the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern, "The Hawk Mountain Line." In those days the engine at the WK&S was a 2-6-2 from down South somewhere that I believe later went to the Wolfeboro Railroad in New Hampshire.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: RAM on April 19, 2012, 12:53:34 PM
Yes Varney steam locomotives were great until they came out cheap 4-60 and 2-8-0.  The super locomotives came in four boxes.  You could buy one box at a time.  $49.99 was a lot of money at that time.  old Mantua loop-and-hook worked great.  however if one car fell off the layout it would take the whole time with it.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: phillyreading on April 19, 2012, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 19, 2012, 09:30:03 AM
Quote from: phillyreading on April 18, 2012, 04:03:01 PM
A place that has handbuilt houses and other O gauge size buildings is "Roadside America" in Shartlesville PA, near Hamburg and Allentown, and is open to the public.

Lee F.

Is "Roadside America" still around? My mom and dad took me to see that when I was a boy in the '60s. We visited "Roadside America" on our way home from taking a ride on the steam train of the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern, "The Hawk Mountain Line." In those days the engine at the WK&S was a 2-6-2 from down South somewhere that I believe later went to the Wolfeboro Railroad in New Hampshire.

I was up to see it about seven years ago and it is still around. Has an amazing layout in O gauge. Roadside America is off of I-78, between Hamburg and rt. 183, or on old rt. 22 that runs from Hamburg to Shartlesville.
One of my grandmothers(Sophie Deeds) used to know the original owner and builder of Roadside America. I would have to search for info about the name of the man who built it. Anyway it is modeled after Berks County for landscape.

If you are interested there is an O gauge club near Frackville PA, north of Hamburg on route 61 near route 83.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: phillyreading on April 19, 2012, 04:06:58 PM
If you go to Allentown PA, check out the nearby city of Jim Thorpe, home of the leftovers from the Reading RR, a.k.a. Reading & Northern RR, now a regional RR. Even have a short line passenger service there.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 19, 2012, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: phillyreading on April 19, 2012, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 19, 2012, 09:30:03 AM
Quote from: phillyreading on April 18, 2012, 04:03:01 PM
A place that has handbuilt houses and other O gauge size buildings is "Roadside America" in Shartlesville PA, near Hamburg and Allentown, and is open to the public.

Lee F.

Is "Roadside America" still around? My mom and dad took me to see that when I was a boy in the '60s. We visited "Roadside America" on our way home from taking a ride on the steam train of the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern, "The Hawk Mountain Line." In those days the engine at the WK&S was a 2-6-2 from down South somewhere that I believe later went to the Wolfeboro Railroad in New Hampshire.

I was up to see it about seven years ago and it is still around. Has an amazing layout in O gauge. Roadside America is off of I-78, between Hamburg and rt. 183, or on old rt. 22 that runs from Hamburg to Shartlesville.
One of my grandmothers(Sophie Deeds) used to know the original owner and builder of Roadside America. I would have to search for info about the name of the man who built it. Anyway it is modeled after Berks County for landscape.

If you are interested there is an O gauge club near Frackville PA, north of Hamburg on route 61 near route 83.

Lee F.

I'm glad to know it's still around. I haven't been up that way in years. I remember as a child being very impressed.  :)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 19, 2012, 10:16:06 PM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 18, 2012, 05:52:00 PM
One of the great things, about threads such as this one, is that it gets the 'memory juices' flowing. After telling of my first locomotive being an Athearn Little Hustler [Desertdweller, I laughed when you compared the Little Hustler to a Sidewinder missile...so true, so true.] I decided to do a 'Google' search to see if I could find any pictures of the beast. Lo, and behold, I not only found a picture/description; but the picture was an exact image of the model I once had.
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/LittleHustler.jpg)
I remember replacing the rubber bands with ones gotten from my orthodontist's office as they were the same size. As Desertdweller mentioned with a top speed of 200+ mph, this was a poor choice as a switching locomotive.

Ray

Kind of a cute little thing, though.  :D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
Yes, it was cute.  A company, I think it was Ernst, made an aftermarket gear drive for it that would maybe have made it usable.

My favorite HO "critter" was the 0-4-0ST Dockside.  These were based on a B&O prototype.  I think this model was first produced by Varney in the 1950's.  AHM imported and sold lots of these that were made by Rivarossi.
I've read the B&O locomotive was a lightweight design made for switching on tracks laid on docks.  But lots of similar locos were used in industrial applications all over the country: mines; lumber railroads; factories.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 20, 2012, 08:47:46 AM
Now that I RE-look at it - that Little Hustler was kinda cute. Perhaps, with a NWSL power truck and lots of mechanical ability, one could make that locomotive into a decent switcher. Grandt Line sells a GE 25 Ton locomotive kit that resembles the Hustler. Hmmm, I just may keep my eyes open at the local Spring train shows for one of those Little Hustlers...'should be really cheap and a good basis for upgrading.

As far as favorite critter, I would go with the Mantua 0-6-0T ('looks neat; but is a piece of junk) or the Bachmann Spectrum GE 45 Ton ('looks neat and runs like a fine timepiece). I would love to see Bachmann redesign their Plymouth not-really-a-Model MDT as a WDT/6 with a decent Bachmann power truck underneath. [To the Bachmann 'design team': a Plymouth MDT is a four-wheel locomotive whilst the WDT has 6 wheels...like your model.] Realistically, I guess there isn't enough demand, nor profit margin, to ever hope that will happen...one can dream though.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 20, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Desertdweller on April 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
Yes, it was cute.  A company, I think it was Ernst, made an aftermarket gear drive for it that would maybe have made it usable.

My favorite HO "critter" was the 0-4-0ST Dockside.  These were based on a B&O prototype.  I think this model was first produced by Varney in the 1950's.  AHM imported and sold lots of these that were made by Rivarossi.
I've read the B&O locomotive was a lightweight design made for switching on tracks laid on docks.  But lots of similar locos were used in industrial applications all over the country: mines; lumber railroads; factories.

Les

AHM marketed two versions of this model, one that didn't even have crossheads  :o  and one that had a full valve gear, which, if I remember correctly, they called the "deluxe" version. It might come as a surprise to some folks, but I have seen the "deluxe" model sell on eBay in the $70 range. I managed to pick one up myself; the headlight works, and it runs smoothly and quietly.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 20, 2012, 10:17:11 AM
the hustler was based on prototypes built by h k porter of pittsburgh. when they turned to old homestead mill near pittsburgh into a mall, they put a real hustler on display in a traffic circle.

somebody mentioned the ernst gearing for the hustler. it did work well, and slowed the locomotive down to scale speeds. unfortunately, due to the long rigid wheelbase, the hustler was derailment prone.

which brings up ernst themselves. ernst produced regear kits which fit most athearn and some early proto2000 units (whose drives were athearn clones) and they really slowed these old workhorses down. an ernst geared athearn ran at about helf the speed of an out of the box locomotive. for many years, ernst geared athearns were the standard on my layout, and my dad's as well. for me, dcc and the ability to program any locomotive to run the way i wanted killed the ernst for me. as an experiment, when i first started dcc i programmed an unmodified athearn to run with an ernst geared one. both units had hardwired decoders of course.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 20, 2012, 10:58:03 AM
Re:  The Hustler, here's a little project for the kit-bashers, based on a sample I saw years ago.  Take the body of one Hustler and cut the hood behind the headlight.  Take another body and cut the hood at the cab and splice to the first.  Take the new longer body and join it to the switcher mech of your choice.  Makes for an interesting conversation piece - kind of Lima - like in appearance. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 20, 2012, 11:07:08 AM
Great idea!

Here is another:  Cut the hood off one Hustler, attach it to the cab of another.  Put it on a switcher mechanism, and you have a twin engine, center-cab unit.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 20, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
Quote from: Desertdweller on April 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
Yes, it was cute.  A company, I think it was Ernst, made an aftermarket gear drive for it that would maybe have made it usable.

My favorite HO "critter" was the 0-4-0ST Dockside.  These were based on a B&O prototype.  I think this model was first produced by Varney in the 1950's.  AHM imported and sold lots of these that were made by Rivarossi.
I've read the B&O locomotive was a lightweight design made for switching on tracks laid on docks.  But lots of similar locos were used in industrial applications all over the country: mines; lumber railroads; factories.

Les

Many years ago someone used a Little Joe to make a oil fired 4-4-0 Cab Forward. I did this with a Mantua, 0-6-0T and used the example of a oil fired 4-4-0 built many years ago.
I put a DZ125 decoder in the loco. When I found an old Vanderbilt oil tender, I put a SoundTraxx DSD-090 decoder and speaker in the tender. I left the DZ125 in the loco. No problem with programming. All six drivers pickup and all the tender wheels pickup.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/RightsideA.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/img_0410.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/IMG_0761.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/IMG_0765.jpg)

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 20, 2012, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: richg on April 20, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
Many years ago someone used a Little Joe to make a oil fired 4-4-0 Cab Forward. I did this with a Mantua, 0-6-0T and used the example of a oil fired 4-4-0 built many years ago.
I put a DZ125 decoder in the loco. When I found an old Vanderbilt oil tender, I put a SoundTraxx DSD-090 decoder and speaker in the tender. I left the DZ125 in the loco. No problem with programming. All six drivers pickup and all the tender wheels pickup.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/RightsideA.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/img_0410.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/IMG_0761.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/IMG_0765.jpg)

Rich

That's a real interesting-looking locomotive, Rich!

That conversion of an 0-4-0T to a cab forward 4-4-0 with Vanderbilt tender is illustrated in my favorite old model railroading handbook, The Complete Book of Model Railroading, by David Sutton, published in 1964. I must have acquired my copy of the book at the old Walden Books at the local mall about ten years after it was published, and over the years I've perused it so often that it's now falling apart.  :D

JBJ
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 20, 2012, 10:01:35 PM
Quote from: florynow on April 20, 2012, 04:57:19 PM
It's a shame that not many remember the histories and identities of these (many) Southern locomotives before they went north to tourist railroads en masse in the 60's and early 70's.  Without these little survivors that the owners couldn't afford to replace at the time with diesels, the WK&S and roads like that wouldn't have had steam power at all.

PF

The lovely little 4-4-0 at the Wilmington & Western, in Delaware, is also a transplanted Southerner. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the literature I once had that described her background and where she hailed from.  :(
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: J3a-614 on April 21, 2012, 01:48:24 AM
Johnson Bar, she's from the Mississippi Central, and you're right, she's a pretty thing:

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=WWRC%2098

http://www.scenicusa.net/080608.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl3BgYHScJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6YyWOwZr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL2fUNOaVew

Hmm, she's an Alco, and doesn't look real huge, like a PRR D-16.  I think she looks a good deal like the "Richmond" 4-4-0 that is Ma&Pa Nos. 4-6, offered by Bachmann.  I wonder how close the two are in terms of dimensions, and if it would be possible to make up the 98 from the Bachmann model.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 21, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
Quote from: florynow on April 21, 2012, 10:43:48 AM
rich:  When I found an old Vanderbilt oil tender, I put a SoundTraxx DSD-090 decoder and speaker in the tender.

PF:  is that a Roundhouse tender  like the ones came with the "Harriman"engines they sold way back?  Where did you put the speaker holes?  What is a SoundTraxx DSD-090 ?  That number doesn't match the ones I see in the list.  "Light Steam", et all, have a 5-digit number.

PF

I bought two Bachmann 0-6-0 off of ebay a few years ago that came with the older pancake motor loco. I gave the locos to someone in the Bachmann forums but kept the tenders. I drilled holes in the bottom of the tender and installed a 14mm x 25mm speaker following a tender Bachmann diagram of a Vanderbilt sound tender.
Bachmann still sells the loco & tender, UP,  but not the tender alone.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 22, 2012, 10:44:23 AM
I did some 'searching' at yesterday's Gadsden Train Show and came up with 4 Athearn Little Hustlers for sale (only one was said to be running...the others had 'lost' their rubber bands). None of the offered locomotives were in the greatest condition and were listed at $10 (average).

I did find a couple of the Marx H.K. Porter designed switchers from approximately the same era. These little jewels are gear-driven and closely resemble the Little Hustlers. The dealer had no idea whether or not they ran (from the dry gears I would doubt it strongly) and didn't seem to want to budge from his $30 price point. Needless to say he left the show with all his little switchers.

I did find an image of a Marx switcher and can pass along some information I received from an experienced Marx collector. He said the same model is now sold under the Model Power name as the "Porter Hustler" (which lists in my 2010 Walther's catalog for $35.98 - hence the reluctance of the public to purchase that vendor's models...which looked like he found them in a barn). OK, an image of the Marx:
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/MarxPorterSwitcher.jpg)
Here is an image of the Model Power 'version'. The website, from which the image comes, had several 'flavors' of this model - I chose one that resembled the Marx image. Incidentally these locomotives are on sale for a little under $27.
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/ModelPowerPorter.jpg)

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 22, 2012, 02:47:42 PM
i notice that the marx locomotive has a much shorter wheelbase than the model power or athearn ones.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 22, 2012, 03:30:00 PM
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 21, 2012, 01:48:24 AM
Johnson Bar, she's from the Mississippi Central, and you're right, she's a pretty thing:

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=WWRC%2098

http://www.scenicusa.net/080608.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl3BgYHScJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6YyWOwZr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL2fUNOaVew

Hmm, she's an Alco, and doesn't look real huge, like a PRR D-16.  I think she looks a good deal like the "Richmond" 4-4-0 that is Ma&Pa Nos. 4-6, offered by Bachmann.  I wonder how close the two are in terms of dimensions, and if it would be possible to make up the 98 from the Bachmann model.

Thanks! I thought I remembered a Mississippi connection, but I didn't want to say anything when I couldn't find my documentation to back it up.

I have a framed picture of her pulling a combine and a coach on the W&W hanging in my cubicle at work. (Actually, the picture was the back cover of a tourist railroad directory years ago.  ::) )

Of course, her bell and domes are placed differently than the Bachmann "Richmond" Alco. Truth to tell, personally I find the placement of the bell and domes on the W&W Alco more aesthetically pleasing than I do the placement of those appliances on the Bachmann model.  ::)  :-[
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 22, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
jward - You might be right about the wheelbase of the two locomotives. I held both the Little Hustler and the Marx in my hands - and they looked to be about the same. Unfortunately there wasn't a Model Power loco to compare (frankly, I have never seen a Model Power Porter in the 'flesh'). I am seriously thinking of having a small collection of these little critters: Athearn Little Hustler (silver of course), Marx, Model Power, Bachmann and whatever else I can find...'sort of a critter rescue foundation.

How about those 'little jewels' that Jeff made? Honestly he is getting so talented we may have to award him his MR PhD. Jeff, everytime I see an example of your work I wish you lived next door. Ah, what the heck...I wish all you guys lived on my street (which would be my wife's idea of hell).

Regards,
Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 22, 2012, 04:23:46 PM
we'd have a blast wouldn't we? model train night at a different layout every time.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 22, 2012, 04:29:40 PM
Ray

Was it Jeff or Jonathan with the jewels?

Heck my wife would not think it's hell, she'd pay you to get me away every night. That way I would quit bugging her for more ideas.

Jerry
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 22, 2012, 04:35:49 PM
mine would probably tag along with her steam engines.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 22, 2012, 04:38:30 PM
the only steam mine has is coming from her ears when she can not find her kitchen utinsels that are helping me build my scenery.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: RAM on April 22, 2012, 05:49:44 PM
To me Marx's was low quality,  how ever I have a ho depressed center flat car that is very nice.  I was sure surprised when I turned it over and found out it was a marx.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: electrical whiz kid on April 23, 2012, 09:16:39 AM
Ray;
I can remember getting a start in this hobby in around 1955.  I thought that Varney, Athearn, and (gasp!!) Hobbyline were great brands!  mantua came with those "Baker' type couplers and I nixed them.  The trouble I had was coupling and uncoupling those scale (and I do mean scale) couples that came with the abovementioned kits..
My life turned disastrous around age thirteen, but somewhat recovered three years later.  I will say that, in my case, it wasn't girls or cars, but that Fender Stratocaster (1961) I managed to acquire through the many attic-cleanings, -shoveled walks, etc.  As a result of developing talent to a marketable state, a lucky break into a good "greaseball" band- the cars-and girls (JUST in that order) came along soon after. 
A stint in the Air Force came and went, marriage, and divorce came and went, then the railroad bug bit-hard.  Here I am, present day, and sort of retired, enjhoying both life, and a level of modelling that I nevr dreamed possible!  WHat a great time to be in this hobby!
Rich   
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 23, 2012, 09:36:10 AM
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on April 23, 2012, 09:16:39 AM
Mantua came with those "Baker' type couplers and I nixed them.

You still see really vintage Mantua cars with those couplers quite regularly on eBay.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 23, 2012, 09:52:53 AM
Jerry - It was neither as a reread of the thread had me realize that RichG was the culprit with those locomotives. This isn't to say that the other two guys are extremely talented. [Don't feel left out RichG as I have 'tons' of projects for your expertise.]

I had totally forgotten (thankfully) about Hobbyline trains. You are right...they did run terribly - but were usually cheap enough for a kid's budget. Speaking of budgets, I remember when one could afford to buy MRC and early Athearn kits. 'Remember all the filing one had to do on those zamac car bottoms? When you were all through, those stirrup steps were still a scale foot thick!

Car kits, themselves, have gone through quite a metamorphosis over the years. I remember the old Silver Streak, Comet, Varney, and early Ulrich kits that were 90% wood (if you got one of the kits produced during WW2, it had NO metal at all). Generally speaking most of those kits came sans couplers and trucks. Additionally the car sides consisted of printed paper that one glued (very, very carefully) on the wooden 'block' that was the car's 'shape'. The absolute toughest car I think I ever assembled was a Comet flatcar...all wood with paper sideframes. [As an aside, a buddy of mine tried to give me 6 or 7 of those type kits at Saturday's train show. You could almost feel my shuttering when I opened one of the boxes and there it was...that darn Comet flatcar kit.]

Most of those old kits look pretty sad in today's world of highly detailed offerings. Over the past year I built the crane car #34 (by Ye Old Huff n' Puff...but originally an Alexander car kit), and what a job that was (see the picuture next). Those old kits really were tough.

(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Monks%20Island%20Railway/Thecraneaintgonnafit110911.jpg)

Some of the kit manufacturers 'in the day' were: Ambroid, Athearn, Bowser, Cannonball, Comet, Devore, International Models, Main Line Models, Mantua, Megow's Models, Pacific HO Company, Penn Line, Red Ball, Model Die Casting, Silver Streak, Ulrich, Varney...and probably others that have long faded away.

Ah, memories,
Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on April 23, 2012, 01:28:48 PM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 23, 2012, 09:52:53 AMMost of those old kits look pretty sad in today's world of highly detailed offerings.
Some of the kit manufacturers 'in the day' were: Ambroid, Athearn, Bowser, Cannonball, Comet, Devore, International Models, Main Line Models, Mantua, Megow's Models, Pacific HO Company, Penn Line, Red Ball, Model Die Casting, Silver Streak, Ulrich, Varney...and probably others that have long faded away.
Ray-

I'm not do sure I agree with you on the detail level of the older kits. Yes, the plastic and pot metal kits were crude but the craftsman kits like Ambroid, Walthers, Silver Streak and Central Valley are still impressive today. And challenging. What would you pay to see a modern-day "scratch builder" who buys every part and then basically builds his own kit trying to shape the wooden roof of a Walthers heavyweight steel-sided passenger car? (Walthers and CV are two of the classics you missed.)

                              -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 23, 2012, 03:17:32 PM
When I was a kid I always wanted the Revell railroad yard structures and farmhouse and farm buildings. I never had them back them--but I do now, thanks to eBay.  ;D

(I'm talking genuine Revell here. ...)

Regarding car kits, I bought an assembled Silver Streak drovers' caboose on eBay. I think it's quite nice, though I'm not as discriminating as some folks.  8)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 23, 2012, 05:19:35 PM
Don - I guess you are right...those old Ambroid kits (et. al.) were really something to behold. I 'forgot' a lot of the old manufacturers; but that is what age does to you.

I remember starting out with paper structures. As was mentioned on another thread, one could purchase a pamphlet that contained several printed 'structures'. You then glued this onto some card stock (we used the inside surface of cereal boxes). After cutting them out one would glue them together, using the supplied tabs, much like paper dolls.

A little later on (when finances permitted) we entered the world of plastic building kits. Nearly everyone had at least one Plasticville structure. Revell was the big name in those days. My first plastic building kit was the Revell Small Town Station. I remember putting the thing together (at Warp #4...remember I was ~13 years old) and never bothered painting the structure or the supplied people. Dad put a modified flashlight bulb inside and the darn thing glowed like a UFO. I found a picture of one of these buildings:
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/Revellstation.jpg)
My second building came from a sympathetic neighbor and was the Revell Operating Engine House. Do you remember all the fussing to get those door mechanisms working correctly? Luckily my dad had the patience of Job and we were able to experience the doors opening as the locomotive came up to the doors (they had to be closed manually). Here is an image of the box as I couldn't find a completed model on the Internet:
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/Revellenginehouse.jpg)

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 23, 2012, 06:35:07 PM
Ray

I love that old crane car. I have got to find one..

Jerry
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 24, 2012, 10:43:51 AM
Jerry - The crane car came from Ye Olde Huff n' Puff and is kit #341 which sells for $27 + shipping (www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com). This place sells reissues of many of the old Silver Line (and other) kits from the 'old days'.

I warn you to be ready for some frustration as these kits are not intuitive. Building model airplanes (of the balsa wood variety) will assist in some of the skills required. The crane boom is composed of two white metal (zamac?) beams and God-knows how many little parts (even the gear train must be assembled from metal gears to wooden axles). The car itself is constructed almost entirely of wood.

When you have completed your crane, you have a car that seems to have little prototypical use. The actual car (supposedly) did exist (BTW the kit was originally an Alexander offering). Specifically the boom is fixed into position. This means the crane can only swivel and pick items up within a set radius. Other than off loading a truck, or railcar, to another (on an adjacent track or road) I cannot see any other use for this car. Most cranes are constructed such that the boom, itself, can raise and lower.
Having said that there is a lot of satisfaction in the completion of this kit.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Woody Elmore on April 25, 2012, 08:11:57 AM
I've built a kit from just about every manufacturer. Near my college was a hobbyshop that featured flying models (it was across the street from Van Cortlandt Park in NYC.) The shop was owened by brothers and one brother was a train guy. He had a small backroom loaded with all sorts of goodies. I bought a Penn mikado from them and built a lot of car kits. The store had kits from red Ball, Binkley and Laconia, among others. I even acquired a Mantua metal gondola. The main body was formed tinplate. ends and underframe were zamac. The sides were embossed paper. If I recall the thing screwed together.  It made a nice model.

I remember buying an Ulrich offset side hopper - lettered for the Frisco. The thing was all cast zamc and weighed a ton. One problem was finding a glue to use. In those days it was either Ambroid cement (a cellulose kind of glue) or Walther's Goo. Then you needed to paint the rest of the car to match the sides. Choices were Floquil, All Nation or 410m paint. Testor's made a little kit of RR colors but I never could locate one to buy (no Ebay back then.)

To me the fun in model railroading was to see a train of cars that I built running. Tinkering with them to get them to fit was always a challenge; as was mounting trucks and couplers.

This has been an interesting group of postings!
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 25, 2012, 11:14:25 AM
does anybody remember an old model railroader book of layout plans which contained a mountain railroad called the ute central?

my first layout was an adaptaion of this layout, and i'd like to get a copy of this book but can't seem to find it.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 25, 2012, 01:50:35 PM
Jeff - I vaguely remember that layout. If you know someone who has purchased the Model Railroader DVD of back issues, you could probably locate an ad or reference to that project (I haven't yet decided to part with $200 or railway funds to purchase that DVD myself).

Woody - About six months ago I built a Ulrich 55-ton hopper kit from the early 1970s. When compared to an Accurail 55-ton model it definitely gets second place (it was a lot of fun? to build). You may want to check out the track cleaning thread on this board for more reminiscing (we kinda/sorta hijacked that thread). [As an aside, aren't you on Free Rails?]

My grandfather bought me an MRC Dual Throttlepak (which is what we used to run the Great Northern Pacific). I did a Google search and couldn't locate an image of this transformer. I do remember it 'humming' and getting rather warm to the touch after a lengthy operating session. I saw the same throttlepak for sale (in rather poor condition) at last weekend's train show...'guess they are still around.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 25, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
The mention of zamac (or zamak) brings to mind one of the problems from those early days.  Zamac is an alloy of zinc, magnesium, aluminum and copper.  It's one drawback is that if the alloy mix has ANY lead contamination, it will begin to corrode internally, eventually crumbling away.  The John English line of loco kits was particulary known for this problem.  Some of the earlier Japanese import models used zamac for things like driver centers, tender underframes and even detail parts like air pumps.  I've seen some where the driver centers have just disappeared.  Most of the old Mantua, Ulrich and Roundhouse kits from that period seem to have avoided this problem. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 25, 2012, 02:02:55 PM
On the layout plan, if my memory serves it was in the old "101 Track Plans" book.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 25, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: jward on April 25, 2012, 11:14:25 AM
does anybody remember an old model railroader book of layout plans which contained a mountain railroad called the ute central?

my first layout was an adaptaion of this layout, and i'd like to get a copy of this book but can't seem to find it.

Is this what you might be looking for?

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Screenshot-1.png)

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 25, 2012, 03:21:31 PM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 25, 2012, 01:50:35 PM
My grandfather bought me an MRC Dual Throttlepak (which is what we used to run the Great Northern Pacific). I did a Google search and couldn't locate an image of this transformer. I do remember it 'humming' and getting rather warm to the touch after a lengthy operating session. I saw the same throttlepak for sale (in rather poor condition) at last weekend's train show...'guess they are still around.

Ray

I can't say for sure, but I think that might be the power pack we had on the "train table" my grandfather built for me. I was very young when he built it--possibly just kindergarten age, maybe even younger; I'm afraid I just don't remember for sure.

Grandpa taught electrical shop at a trade school. I remember being told that he had the boys in wood shop make the actual table; it was 4 ft. by 8 ft., nicely framed, with a sheet of homasote on top of a sheet of plywood, and edging that was flush with the top of the homasote.

Grandpa laid the track (brass Atlas Snap-track--it was the early 1960s) and did the wiring; the track plan, a double oval, with one very long spur off the innner loop and a double crossover, looked very much like an old Atlas plan, except that the two tracks were exactly parallel, so that it looked like a double-track main line railroad. He had both loops broken up into blocks, with power controlled by SPST switches gathered into a control box in one corner of the table. There were also on-off switches for power to both loops, and a switch for the crossover--I never did understand how that worked!

And that was the real trouble with that layout--it was way too sophisticated for the small boy that I was. Perhaps if it had had a control panel with a track diagram to show the blocks, that might have helped, but I never really could make the connection between most of the switches on the control box and the actual tracks. One thing I could do, though: Grandpa included an old American Flyer whistle, with a pushbutton on the control box to control it, and you can be sure this little boy learned how to blow the whistle!  :D I think that whistle drove my mother crazy--that may be why the "train table" was only set up in early December and was taken down right after New Year's.  :( The table was set up in the basement; it wasn't like it was filling up half the living room.  :(

Anyway, power for the railroad was some brand of dual throttle power pack that was mounted to the table on the same end but in the opposite corner from the control box. It hummed and got warm after the trains had been running for a while.

I remember that when Grandpa did any repairs on the table, he had the bad habit of starting and stopping trains with the on-off switches on the control box, rather than with the rheostats on the power pack; that drove me crazy once I got old enough to learn to use the knobs on the power pack to slow trains to a stop.

That table lasted well into my 20s, until I was living and working away from home. I was thinking of offering it to my best buddy from high school, who by then had two little boys of his own, both of whom loved trains, but before I could do that, my mother asked me if I'd mind if she offered it to the neighbors for their grandson, so I just told her to go ahead and do that. I sometimes wonder what the neighbors ended up doing with that old train table.  ???
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 25, 2012, 04:25:48 PM
Those old power packs from the '50's and '60's had large transformers inside to step the power down from 110v to about 14v.  Then the lower voltage went through a silicon rectifier unit to covert to DC.  The transformers generate heat, which is why the case gets warm.  If you get a substantial short, and there is no circuit breaker, the transformer can get REALLY hot.  The rheostats, because they are in essence a variable resistor, can also get warm.   

Because a lot of accessories back then used AC, like that American Flyer whistle, the better packs had terminals on the back for regulated DC for the trains, unregulated DC for some accessories, and low-voltage AC for others.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 25, 2012, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: ebtnut on April 25, 2012, 04:25:48 PM
Those old power packs from the '50's and '60's had large transformers inside to step the power down from 110v to about 14v.  Then the lower voltage went through a silicon rectifier unit to covert to DC.  The transformers generate heat, which is why the case gets warm.  If you get a substantial short, and there is no circuit breaker, the transformer can get REALLY hot.  The rheostats, because they are in essence a variable resistor, can also get warm.   

Because a lot of accessories back then used AC, like that American Flyer whistle, the better packs had terminals on the back for regulated DC for the trains, unregulated DC for some accessories, and low-voltage AC for others.

Those old rectifiers could really stink when overloaded.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 25, 2012, 07:07:42 PM
Quote from: ebtnut on April 25, 2012, 04:25:48 PM
Because a lot of accessories back then used AC, like that American Flyer whistle, the better packs had terminals on the back for regulated DC for the trains, unregulated DC for some accessories, and low-voltage AC for others.

Sure enough! That American Flyer whistle got its power from the AC hookup on the transformer.  :)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 25, 2012, 07:39:03 PM
I had one of those MRC Dual Packs.  It was a pretty good unit for its day.  The things I liked about it were the metal case, the taper-wound rheostats, the cranks on the throttle knobs, and the on-off switch on the power packs.

Taper-wound rheostats were an improvement over normal rheostats, in that they had wider spacing between windings at the low-speed end of the coil, the space becoming tighter as the wiper approached the high end of the coil.  This had the effect of providing a greater output for control knob movement when starting.  This was nice when starting a train from a dead stop.

They had the same drawbacks as other rheostats, heating up with use, especially at low speeds.

In another attempt to improve performance, the pack featured "pulse power".  This used only half the wave of the AC converted to DC, 30 hertz.  This was like a "low gear" for switching, but was noisy and would heat up motors quickly.  New generation packs would automatically use pulse when starting, then gradually replace it with full-wave rectified AC at higher throttle settings.  On the Dual Packs, this pulse power was turned on or off with a simple slide switch.  There was no way to smoothly transition from pulse power to normal running.  If you didn't want a bad slack run-out, you could not go from "granny gear" to normal running.

As the pack heated up, it would expand and buzz.  This was a problem with all rheostat-controlled packs.

MRC powerpacks have always been fine machines for their day.  After about ten years of the Dual Pack, I replaced it with a Dual Tech II 2800 MRC unit.  It has the faults of the earlier pack corrected, and has served me well for over thirty years.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 26, 2012, 09:21:18 AM
Quote from: Desertdweller on April 25, 2012, 07:39:03 PM
In another attempt to improve performance, the pack featured "pulse power".  This used only half the wave of the AC converted to DC, 30 hertz.  This was like a "low gear" for switching, but was noisy and would heat up motors quickly.  New generation packs would automatically use pulse when starting, then gradually replace it with full-wave rectified AC at higher throttle settings.  On the Dual Packs, this pulse power was turned on or off with a simple slide switch.  There was no way to smoothly transition from pulse power to normal running.  If you didn't want a bad slack run-out, you could not go from "granny gear" to normal running.

I remember that feature of my power pack. That was another feature that, as a little kid, I had no idea what it was for!   :D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 26, 2012, 10:30:01 AM
I had a copy (actually I thought I still "had" that copy...but can't find it) of 101 Track Plans. That may have been where I saw the layout plan in question. One can only assume that the book was sold at one of our train shows. If I remember (yeah...that might actually happen), I will look for a copy at the Birmingham train show next weekend.

I remember those early zamac metal pieces deteriorating. Some time ago, I started construction on an early Red Ball flat car kit. The supplied truck bolsters were made of zamac and had deteriorated in the kit box. I guess the kit (obtained from eBay) had been subjected to humidity in its past.

Another problem with purchasing these old kits is that the paper overlays are rapidly beginning to decompose. Most of the overlays were made from printed paper (or lighter card stock). Paper is a magnet for humidity and will begin to brown and/or grow brittle with age ('has to do with the acidity of the paper product...look at what happends to newsprint after a couple of years). I suggest you look over any of these kits with a careful eye...any that have overlays that have become (or started to become) brown should be passed over. Another possible course of action would be to scan the original overlays, digitally remove as much browning as you can, then print out new overlays on suitable card stock.

Someone mentioned the glues that were available in the days of yore. In addition to 'pot glues' there were the two mentioned. Pot glues are made from animal renderings and were extensively used in the furniture industry. While they worked well (sort of) in furniture, they fell short of the mark in modeling. Usually these glues 'dried out' over time and lost their adhesion. [That could be why so many of the completed old time car kits are seen to be falling apart.]

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 26, 2012, 11:26:25 AM
rich,

thanks. now i know what book it was in. finding it may be a problem though.

how i built the ute short line, in the original version of small model railroads you can build. unfortunately, everybody online seems to be selling later versions of this book, which have completely different layout plans.

i will continue my search....
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on April 26, 2012, 01:52:05 PM
In those days before ACC and epoxy, almost none of the adhesive we had available were truly "permanent".  Ambroid did OK for wood to wood or paper to wood, but not metal to anything.  Pot glue and white glue again did pretty good for wood to wood but not much else.  About the only real option for wood to metal or metal to metal was Walthers Goo, but even it would dry out over the years and parts would begin to fall off.  I'm sure this was at least part of the reason many of the kits used screws and small brass pins in assembly, even if there was some loss of precise detail. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on April 26, 2012, 02:18:22 PM
Model Die Casting sold freight car kits which were all zamac. You had to screw them together and there was never a question of adding weight. Those things weighed a ton but they sure sat right down on the rails and stayed there. Painting them was a problem until we realized we had to wash them thoroghly to remove the mold release. I still have some of these.

There were also kits, including Silver Streak, which had nicely painted and decorated sides but bare wood everything else. The instruction sheet would say which paint number from which manufacturer to use to match the prepainted sides. In those days, that usually meant Floquil.

I remember the first time I saw an ad for Floquil paint. It ballyhooed scale pigments. I thought that was just about the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. Then I thought about it for a while, looked at a few models I had buried under Testor's pla and realized they were on to something. And I stuck with Floquil exclusively until the acrylics came out. I mostly use the acrylics now, but I  keep a good supply of Floquil around, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 26, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
Don - I remember those all-metal, heavy MDC cars. Couple two or three to an early Athearn locomotive (with Hi-F drive) and not much of anything happened. As an aside, you solved a problem I had, as a kid, with painting metal cars...the paint streaked or didn't stay on at all. [A 13 year-old's solution?...lay the paint on heavier.] I never thought to wash the cars before painting (something that I routinely do today).

Ye Olde Huff n' Puff still offers some of the old Silver Streak and Mainline kits. It probably would do us good to attempt to build at least one of them (no more cranes for this guy though). Possibly by building one of these older kits we can appreciate how far kits have come (especially the styrene ones).

We used diluted house, or Testor's, paint on the early kits. I do remember using Scalecoat for the first time and was amazed at how easily it flowed on the surface. Dad always had me seal the assembled wooden parts with shellac or lacquer (I don't remember which). This sealed the grain and provided a smooth surface to glue those overlays to. Nowdays I get most of my paint from either Walmart or Hobby Lobby (and occasionally a 'special color' from an LHS).

Ray

PS: I just bought a near-perfect Athearn Little Hustler on eBay. With a new set of rubber bands I can now say that Monks' Island is 'missile equipped'. The Hustler is mainly for show and will join my Bachmann MDT/WDT as the beginning of my 'critter' collection. Hmmm, 'might have the Trackmobile join them.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 27, 2012, 01:08:52 AM
I had one of those MDC metal cars, a gon.  It came factory painted and lettered for BN.  This was soon after the original BN merger, so it must have been one of the first models offered in that paint scheme.

It sure did not need any extra weigh!

It came with horn-hook couplers like everything else did back then in HO.  Their coupler used a plastic hook and shank, and a thin metal wire spring, and did not like to stay coupled with other makers' horn hook couplers.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 09:02:52 AM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 26, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
PS: I just bought a near-perfect Athearn Little Hustler on eBay. With a new set of rubber bands I can now say that Monks' Island is 'missile equipped'. The Hustler is mainly for show and will join my Bachmann MDT/WDT as the beginning of my 'critter' collection. Hmmm, 'might have the Trackmobile join them.

Uh-oh! Sounds like the collecting bug has bit!  ;D  ;)

It got me, too, a number of years ago, which is why I scour eBay every day for late-50's--early-60's Mantua/Tyco.  ::)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Len on April 27, 2012, 10:39:34 AM
If anyone needs them, the Hi-F/Hustler drive bands are still available from Athearn, P/N: 90101, $3.60 for a pack of 24. Or you can order them through Horizon Hobbies, P/N: ATH90101. They currently show as "Out of Stock", with a due in date of May this year.

Len
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on April 27, 2012, 01:30:47 PM
Quote from: Len on April 27, 2012, 10:39:34 AM
If anyone needs them, the Hi-F/Hustler drive bands are still available from Athearn, P/N: 90101, $3.60 for a pack of 24. Or you can order them through Horizon Hobbies, P/N: ATH90101. They currently show as "Out of Stock", with a due in date of May this year.

Len

They also have 'em at Office Max. Just get the small ones for cheap.

Does anyone here actually believe the huge interest in Hi-F drives and Little Hustlers? They were a joke back in the day and now they're like celebrities. It knocks me out. But I'm not immune to the fever. I don't have a Hustler but I recently resurrected my Athearn Hi-F RDC. Is anyone aware that this model was the impetus for the Japanese bullet trains? Of course the RDC goes a little faster but that's where the idea came from. You can look it up!

Also, has anyone noticed how fast this thread is growing? It has to be the most active one on the Board. I guess we old geezers like to roll around in our pasts.

                                                                                                                                         -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 02:04:33 PM
Quote from: Doneldon on April 27, 2012, 01:30:47 PM
I don't have a Hustler but I recently resurrected my Athearn Hi-F RDC. Is anyone aware that this model was the impetus for the Japanese bullet trains? Of course the RDC goes a little faster but that's where the idea came from. You can look it up!

:D

QuoteAlso, has anyone noticed how fast this thread is growing? It has to be the most active one on the Board. I guess we old geezers like to roll around in our pasts.

                                                                                                                                         -- D


I wouldn't speak for anyone else, but living in the past seems to agree with me.  ;)  ;D

And maybe, just maybe, deep inside anyone who aspires to operate his model trains prototypically, there still lives a little boy who wants his trains to go fast.  ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 27, 2012, 02:47:56 PM
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering,
what happened?

I hit 71 years old April 15th. Workout for about two hours almost every day.
Ride bicycle on rail trails in my area.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Manhan-Rail-Trail/192310751055

I am known as Bike Rider.

Member of the Manhan Rail Trail committee.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 27, 2012, 07:29:50 PM
Everyone has a past, even the newbies.

And the "Old-timers" posting here have all pretty much experienced the same start in the hobby:  trying to get a model railroad built and operating on a limited budget, using the equipment widely available at the time.

We know what it is like to attempt to haul an HO freight train with a tiny Hustler that can outrun an HO slot car.
Looking through layout plan books and dreaming.  Wishing we had "just a little more space".

I think it is this common experience that binds us.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2012, 08:58:07 PM

rich, you still just a kid.  It is good to see that you workout and ride a bike.  It pays off.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 27, 2012, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: RAM on April 27, 2012, 08:58:07 PM

rich, you still just a kid.  It is good to see that you workout and ride a bike.  It pays off.

I have Macular degeneration in the left eye which does not allow model railroading anymore. Cannot do anymore close up modeling. Been a nice ride. I am taking down the layout and starting to sell off stuff.
As Uncle John's Bathroom Readers books say, Go with the flow. lol

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: richg on April 27, 2012, 09:37:43 PM
I have Macular degeneration in the left eye which does not allow model railroading anymore. Cannot do anymore close up modeling.

:(

What about Large Scale?
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: richg on April 28, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: richg on April 27, 2012, 09:37:43 PM
I have Macular degeneration in the left eye which does not allow model railroading anymore. Cannot do anymore close up modeling.

:(

What about Large Scale?

Gave away my Bachmann large scale, 4-6-0 with two cars to my son in law for my first grandson, Jan 2011 when he was born. I hope to be around long enough to help him set it up when he is old enough. My daughters got a late start in life having children.
They will be buying a larger home and I told my son in law to make sure the place has a large, dry cellar. A bonus in the house would be, a large scale layout ready to use. lol.

Times change. People change.

Rich
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on April 29, 2012, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 02:04:33 PM
And maybe, just maybe, deep inside anyone who aspires to operate his model trains prototypically, there still lives a little boy who wants his trains to go fast.  ;D

Damn betcha'!!
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 29, 2012, 11:12:03 AM
Hey you old Geezers (I'm 27...or was it 67? I forgot) - All kidding aside I spent $23 of the Monks' Island Railway funds on an Athearn Little Hustler BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS AND THIS DARN THREAD! In writing my contributions, to the thread, I began that dangerous journey called 'reminiscing'. On the 'journey' I remembered a time when life was a lot simpler and fun could be as cheap as taking an old baby carriage and turning it into a downhill racer. 'Guess I owe you all a "thank you".

The Little Hustler will join my (small as of yet) collection of 'critters'...I have always maintained an interest in small switching locomotives. As for actually running the Little Hustler? Are you crazy? The entire length of the mainline of the Monks' Island Railway is something like 10'. How would I explain that hole in the train room wall to my wife? ["No, honest honey, there was this silver missile that actually streaked inches past my face...'probably some experiment gone wrong at Redstone Arsenal or the Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville...I wouldn't lie to you dear."]  ::)

Ray

BTW: Oh, OK - when the Little Hustler comes next week I'll 'take it out for a spin' (with one of the couch cushions at the end of the track).
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Jerrys HO on April 29, 2012, 12:36:37 PM
Ray

I would be careful it may go thru the pillow. You may want to double stack.
I bet it was the one I was trying to bid on also. Never had one and they are pretty neat. I guess I will keep looking and bidding.

Jerry
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 29, 2012, 01:38:37 PM
Oh, the dangers of peer pressure!  I can hear your mother now: "I suppose if all your friends dropped their Hustlers off a roof, you would, too!"

My only advice is, you may want to remove your scenery from the outside of your curves.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on April 29, 2012, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 29, 2012, 11:12:03 AM
I'm 27...or was it 67? I forgot

Ray--

I hate to say it but if you forgot ... you're 67.

                                                           -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 29, 2012, 03:52:46 PM
Quote from: Doneldon on April 29, 2012, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 27, 2012, 02:04:33 PM
And maybe, just maybe, deep inside anyone who aspires to operate his model trains prototypically, there still lives a little boy who wants his trains to go fast.  ;D

Damn betcha'!!


:D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 29, 2012, 04:38:43 PM
Jerry - If that Little Hustler was on eBay last week...you're correct. If it makes it any easier, there were a couple on the week before that came with the original boxes. Come up to Northeastern Alabama and I'll let you play with it (we'll start out with you at the end of the track - wearing a catcher's mask & glove).

Don, Don, Don...you just HAD to remember.

Desertdweller - Perhaps I should consider 'banking' the curves like a NASCAR track (super elevation is 'way too shallow). If the Little Hustler had magnetraction it would probably do loops. Oh...so my mom lectured you as well?

Regards,
Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on April 29, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
Ray,

No.  She didn't lecture me, but I suspect both our mothers were reading the same play book.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on April 30, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
ray,
maybe you should add wings to it and mount a jet engine on the roof. and rename the railroad the monks island airport.


just a thought.....
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 30, 2012, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 29, 2012, 04:38:43 PM
Desertdweller - Perhaps I should consider 'banking' the curves like a NASCAR track (super elevation is 'way too shallow). If the Little Hustler had magnetraction it would probably do loops. Oh...so my mom lectured you as well?

Ray, if you've got room for a second track, you could get a second Hustler and run a Monk's Island 500 this Memorial Day weekend.  ;)

JBJ
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on April 30, 2012, 10:30:04 AM
"Monks' Island Approach...this is Porter Hustler 53...squawking 1200...7 miles east...landing VFR with Charlie."

"Hustler 53...Monks' Island Approach...radar contact 6.8 miles east...continue and plan on entering the downwind for runway 2-4. Contact Monks' Tower on 126.3."

"Approach, Hustler 53 will continue and contact Monks on 126.3."

"Monks Tower...Hustler 53".

"Hustler 53...Monks Tower. Sir, please slow your speed to 1-5-0 knots. You are cleared to land runway 2-4."

[Instructor to student pilot: "OK, good communication technique...now remember to keep the nose up in the flare as we don't want to hit the front coupler...again"]

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on May 01, 2012, 04:50:58 AM
Ray-

Very nice, but are you sure a Hustler can reduce its air speed to just 150 knots?

                                                                                                             -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on May 02, 2012, 02:58:13 AM
ironic that you should do the airport control tower. back in the 1970s, a conrail yardmaster at one of our local yards used to do the same thing over the radio for inbound trains. that is, until the brass caught him and reprimanded him.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 02, 2012, 10:13:26 AM
That is a shame about the ConRail yardmaster that tried to err on the side of safety.

Don - Yes, the Hustler can slow down to 150 kts. by turning the throttle to OFF (and praying).

FAR (Federal Air Regulation) 91.117 states that no aircraft shall operate in excess of 250 kts. (280 mph) I.S. (indicated airspeed) below 10,000' MSL without permission of Air Traffic Control. This means the Little Hustler can achieve escape velocity as long as it is above 10,000' MSL (above Mean Sea Level). The Monks' Island Railway is seriously considering a siding to the moon.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on May 02, 2012, 11:53:54 AM
i think they took exception to him calling the yard tracks runway 5,6,7, etc.

as for monks island, maybe you could paint the coors logo on the side of your brewery, say it's in colorado, and get around the 10k rule. you could also call your hustler the silver bullet.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 02, 2012, 03:55:15 PM
Some other stuff from back in the day.  I made the transistion from HO to O and On3 in the early '70's.  Among the items available at a reasonable price were the O scale kits offered by AHM - the Genoa 4-4-0, the Casey Jones 4-6-0 and the IHB 0-8-0.  There were motorizing kits available for all of them, and you really had to install the motorizing stuff as you were building the kits.  I have the Casey Jones and the IHB, and they still run pretty well.  I have future designs on turning the IHB into a close approximation of a WM H-8 2-8-0.  Also, Atlas had a line of O scale equipment, including a nice F-7, several freight cars and a bobber caboose. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 02, 2012, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: ebtnut on May 02, 2012, 03:55:15 PM
Some other stuff from back in the day.  I made the transistion from HO to O and On3 in the early '70's.  Among the items available at a reasonable price were the O scale kits offered by AHM - the Genoa 4-4-0, the Casey Jones 4-6-0 and the IHB 0-8-0.  There were motorizing kits available for all of them, and you really had to install the motorizing stuff as you were building the kits.  I have the Casey Jones and the IHB, and they still run pretty well.  I have future designs on turning the IHB into a close approximation of a WM H-8 2-8-0.  Also, Atlas had a line of O scale equipment, including a nice F-7, several freight cars and a bobber caboose. 

I used to see those kits in hobby shops. Made me think that 2-rail O-scale might be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 03, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
At 43, I can remember plenty of things discussed above.

However, the Mantua trains of my youth, after sitting at home for many years, did not run so well anymore and I did not consider it worthwhile to try to repair them as my current motive power and rolling stock are...light years ahead of them.

The only item of rolling stock from "that era" that I retain is a single Mantua trolley, and a plasticville barn that is on the current train layout.

The trolley runs ok on the one or two occasions a year when I run it.

All my other rolling stock and motive power is new within the past 2 years (but it's a modest fleet).

I routinely "trade up" to whatever the most current engines and rolling stock are that I "have to have".

Right now I have one Bachmann Alco 2-6-0, one more in the mail, one Bowser Alco Demo C-628, one Atlas ACL S-2, and 14 freight cars plus 1 passenger car on a modest 81 linear foot HO mainline, with 2 passing sidings.

One 2-8-8-4 is on layaway.

Though I have some fond memories of the trains of years ago, including many brass ones I played with and subsequently traded (before house and kids, and some of the brass cash went into the house), I don't have any wish to go back in time.

Best Regards--

2-8-8-4
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 04, 2012, 09:06:38 AM
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on May 03, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
At 43, I can remember plenty of things discussed above.

However, the Mantua trains of my youth, after sitting at home for many years, did not run so well anymore and I did not consider it worthwhile to try to repair them as my current motive power and rolling stock are...light years ahead of them.

The only item of rolling stock from "that era" that I retain is a single Mantua trolley, and a plasticville barn that is on the current train layout.

The trolley runs ok on the one or two occasions a year when I run it.

All my other rolling stock and motive power is new within the past 2 years (but it's a modest fleet).

I routinely "trade up" to whatever the most current engines and rolling stock are that I "have to have".

Right now I have one Bachmann Alco 2-6-0, one more in the mail, one Bowser Alco Demo C-628, one Atlas ACL S-2, and 14 freight cars plus 1 passenger car on a modest 81 linear foot HO mainline, with 2 passing sidings.

One 2-8-8-4 is on layaway.

Though I have some fond memories of the trains of years ago, including many brass ones I played with and subsequently traded (before house and kids, and some of the brass cash went into the house), I don't have any wish to go back in time.

Best Regards--

2-8-8-4

Thought-provoking comments, 2-8-8-4. Thanks!

I've got eleven years on you come this Sunday, and it strikes me that makes a world of difference in model railroading.

Unless you "inherited" Mantua engines from the early 60s or so, I would guess the Mantua trains of your youth weren't very good to begin with. I can't swear to the exact dates, but I believe by the time you were coming up, the Tyler family had sold off the Mantua/Tyco model train line, and I'd say things weren't very good. This was the time of trains lettered "Clementine" and "Chattanooga." It wasn't until around 1980 that the family bought back the train line and reintroduced the Mantua name, and things began to improve.

I'd also say that if you had brass locomotives to play with as a kid, you were one lucky kid!  ;D

J.B.J.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 04, 2012, 01:09:38 PM
The Mantua Tyco trains were very well made up until 1975.  My first trainset (in 1973), which my father traded a worn out Lionel trainset in to purchase, was the Santa Fe C430 freight set, in the red warbonnet scheme correct for the U28CG.  Lewis K. English, Sr.'s train collection still has my father's Lionel train in it, though Mr. English passed earlier this year.  That collection is valued at more than $1,000,000...it's probably being quietly liquidated now.

The pre-1975 Mantua-Tyco stuff ran very well; we also bought some of the older red-box Mantua cars which were still readily available.  I ran the wheels off the stuff.  It lasted, as did the Model Power Austrian-produced Sharknose--one of the first rtr plastic diesels to feature a nice can motor.

The frequent customers of English's Model RR Supply got me into brass in my very late teens and early 20's (very late 1980's).  I bought and traded a lot of it (being somewhat of a perfectionist) and had a lot of fun running all the different brass models with those friends who I met while waiting upon them at the train store.  (As an employee of a distributor, I was able to get the 40% discount off just about anything, and sometimes more.  The discount at that time also extended to brass models that I could reserve).

Today for one reason or another most of us are out of brass.  The one guy at one time had $100,000 in HO brass models...and we played with them all.  It was a lot of fun--doubleheaded articulateds, etc. on 50 car trains.

Now the same guys are playing with plastic hybrids, and engines like the Bachmann EM-1, instead of brass.  It was one thing to own brass when new diesels were only $300 or so each, factory painted..it's quite another thing today.

In fact, I decided to buy the EM-1 because my old friend, the one-time brass heavy hitter, gave it a very favorable review.  Plus, it ran near my father's home town of Butler PA.

Being not rich, I'm selling some Athearn Genesis steamers to buy it...

John
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 04, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
John,

It sounds as though you had the good fortune to grow up among a community of model railroaders, and I think it's awesome that you were actually able to work in a train store as a youth. I was pretty much on my own among people for whom model trains were "toys" that were "played with" at Christmas. ...

I remember seeing the English name in ads in Model Railroader. It's kind of sad to think of Mr. English's collection being liquidated, because I'm sure he loved it, but I suppose it's also inevitable.

QuoteThe pre-1975 Mantua-Tyco stuff ran very well; we also bought some of the older red-box Mantua cars which were still readily available.  I ran the wheels off the stuff. It lasted.

Clearly you have a better "fix" on the dates than I do, but I agree, "It lasted." This is one reason why part of my hobby today is collecting red-box Mantua rolling stock. For me there is also the nostalgia value, as these were the trains of my childhood in the Sixties.

QuoteToday for one reason or another most of us are out of brass.  The one guy at one time had $100,000 in HO brass models...and we played with them all.  It was a lot of fun--doubleheaded articulateds, etc. on 50 car trains.

Now the same guys are playing with plastic hybrids, and engines like the Bachmann EM-1, instead of brass.  It was one thing to own brass when new diesels were only $300 or so each, factory painted..it's quite another thing today.

Since my primary interest has always been steam, brass has always seemed to be out of my price range.

QuoteIn fact, I decided to buy the EM-1 because my old friend, the one-time brass heavy hitter, gave it a very favorable review.  Plus, it ran near my father's home town of Butler PA.

Also a Pennsylvanian here, Lancaster and now Philadelphia, just FYI.

Jeff
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: john tricarico on May 04, 2012, 05:48:34 PM
well guys we al remember the great products
how about some of the great prices
who remembers here in n.y.c the MAYS department store after christmas sale
on A.H.M. .. with absoulty low ball prices back around 1971-1974
GG1s for 15.99
BIG BOYS for 19.99
CAB forwards for 19.99
a.h.m. passenger cars as low as 2.99
they had a full page ad in the n.y. daily news

now to reminice and wonder what ever happened to those good old days
but that was then
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 04, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
I have had to wait on people and find parts for many of those same AHM and Rivarossi locomotives!

To quote my friend, Rich, a sales manager of a fine train store today--they were "lewd and crude".  3-pole motors---Yuck!

Perhaps they ran ok by 1980 standards, but no thank you--I'll take today's engines over any of those in a second, even at today's prices.

Mr. English explained on more than one occasion that had they not worked a deal with AHM to service the trains many years ago if they could buy them at a competitive price (relative to the big box stores that had them), that had it not been for that one significant deal, that his train store would have been gone many years ago.  Being able to stock parts for and service those engines was the beginning of English's becoming a distributor for several product lines...and ultimately kept them in business to today.

In 1973, the first time I entered that store at about age 4 1/2 or 5, it was just a small store like so many others that have passed on (except they had a train factory in the back room making Bowser, Cal-Scale, etc.--which I later also helped to do).

I also think he would be a little bit sad to see just how many of the small train stores are gone.

John


I live in Marysville, PA, and have only really embraced/understood/appreciated steam power in recent years.  I had always preferred the Alco Century series diesels, but after awhile one realizes that they are not as interesting on the layout as steam power...well at least if you are me.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 04, 2012, 07:56:40 PM
I'm not experienced with Mantua, but did have a Tyco freight set.  It performed well, but the Tyco cars did not mix well with the Athearn ones.

This set had the GP-20 (mine was CB&Q).  It used what I thought was an ingenious drive system.  The drive was a unitized assembly that was integrated into one of the trucks.  It was the front truck, so the width was there to accommodate the motor.  The only wiring I recall was used to power the headlight.  The rear truck was not powered, and the power assembly was held together with rivets.

The drive unit was exceptionally smooth and quiet.

Something happened to Tyco in the 1980's.  Apparently, they managed to get their pectorals in a laundry squeezer.  I see their name on a lot of medical equipment, but not on model trains.  I think Mantua somehow managed to separate themselves from the mess.

They were a good brand of entry-level HO trains.  They competed with Bachmann and Life-Like.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2012, 08:29:44 PM
Well you were Lucky that the drive unit was exceptionally smooth and quiet.  Most of them were not.  Tyco went under, and the Tyco you see on medical equipment is not in any way connected.

Tyco and Bachmann were at the low end of quality for year.  Bachmann with the help of good management, is now near the top.  Most of the low end companies are no longer in business.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 04, 2012, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Desertdweller on May 04, 2012, 07:56:40 PM
Something happened to Tyco in the 1980's.  Apparently, they managed to get their pectorals in a laundry squeezer.  I see their name on a lot of medical equipment, but not on model trains.  I think Mantua somehow managed to separate themselves from the mess.

I dug some of my documentation out of the library.  ;D

In 1967 Mantua Metal Products Co. and Tyler Manufacturing became part of a new corporation called Tyco Industries. In 1970 the Tyler family sold the company to an outfit called Consolidated Foods. The Tyler family bought back their old facility in New Jersey in 1977 and reestablished the Mantua name. Mantua shut down for good in 2001.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 04, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
The Mantua and Mantua Tyco power truck was smooth and quiet for the era--especially so when run regularly (ie not only in December, but the rest of the year) and properly broken in.  I spent countless hours enjoying those engines.  The same power truck was used in most of the Mantua-Tyco diesels.  They only changed the plastic sideframes to "match" the "model".  Those diesels had a (presumably lead) weight in the fuel tank area that was stamped "Mantua - Tyco".  Things didn't change right away after the sale--it took years for the junk to come in.

In fall of 1975 is about when things went south.  They packaged some of the remaining Mantua-Tyco stuff in engine and caboose sets.  The box had a "Limited Offer - Special Value" diagonal band across it--and it said Tyco on the box (today we might recognize that as "final blow out").  Those engines still had the good power truck.  They definitely had special sets of Illinois Central Gulf, Soo Line, Chessie System and I'm not sure what all other roadnames of the Alco C430 diesel with the good power truck, though the cabooses had the junky plastic axles already.  Many dealers still had the good quality engines available for years after that--it wasn't like today--stock did linger for years before it was sold.  You could still buy 1960's Mantua stuff in the late '70's if you knew or cared what to look for.

I vividly remember fall of 1975 because that Christmas was my "best" toy Christmas ever.  I was 7, and had bugged my Dad for months for one of those ICG orange C430's (not knowing or caring they weren't prototypical at all).  I was very happy on Christmas day, thanks to Dad.

However, the next Tyco engines came in the infernal "Power Torque" box with a cheap, crappy mechanism made in Hong Kong.  In the case of the Illinois Central Gulf units, they were readily recognizable in that the text font of the road number was different from all previous production--way too large--and the ICG orange was replaced with a crappy reddish-orange color that bore little resemblance to any shade IC or ICG ever used.  Sometimes you see those bodies on older power trucks, but they did not come that way originally.  The Hong Kong pilots of some diesels were slightly different and slightly cheasier.  The "Power Torque" mechanism had a sickening whine to it that as I recall never went away.  It was one of the few engines I ever just outright threw in the trash.

Then came the infernal "Silver Streak"-style paint schemes as Tyco degenerated quickly...

John

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 06, 2012, 02:41:53 PM
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on May 04, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
I vividly remember fall of 1975 because that Christmas was my "best" toy Christmas ever.  I was 7, and had bugged my Dad for months for one of those ICG orange C430's (not knowing or caring they weren't prototypical at all).  I was very happy on Christmas day, thanks to Dad.

Mine was the Christmas of 1965 (I think that was the year)--when, coincidentally, I was 7--when Santa brought me the "Petticoat Junction" set.  ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 06, 2012, 05:32:13 PM
I was not much involved in the hobby in the mid-70's.  Belonged to an HO club, but was getting ready to transition to N-scale.  So I missed the truly crappy Tyco stuff.

I'm not so sure Tyco medical equipment is truly unrelated to Tyco trains. Something to ponder the next time you are in the hospital.

I recall their stuff as being cheap but well-designed, and performed reasonably well.  I felt they were at least as good as their competitors in the same price range.  I was not well-enough informed at the time to realize the problem with their freight equipment's incompatibility with other makes was due to their truck-mounted couplers.  Their cars worked fine with others of the same brand.

All-wheel drive would have been a nice touch, but was not universal in the low-priced market.  The unitized power truck could not be used in hood units for the rear truck, but would have worked in F-units.  I thought their F-9 was pretty nice, and would not have been difficult to dual-power.

Maybe there were just too many manufacturers of low-end HO products back then for the market to support.
Tyco made some pretty good HO slot cars back then, as did Aurora.  Aurora was an early manufacturer of N-scale trains, marketed in conjunction with Revell.  Both were old-line manufacturers of stationery model kits.

Life-Like and AHM also offered entry-level HO sets.  AHM was an importer, not a manufacturer.  They imported trains from a variety of European manufacturers.  Much of their lower-priced stuff was made by Mechano in Yugoslavia.  Their better stuff was made in Italy by Rivarossi.

Lionel tried to compete in the mid-level HO market, by selling repackaged Athearn products.  I don't understand the thinking behind that.  Maybe they thought they could move their O-gauge tinplate customers into HO that way.

Atlas was bringing out some good mid-range HO locomotives at about that time.  They were also getting a foothold in N-scale by selling locos and cars made by Rivarossi.  The Rivarossi cars, especially the passenger cars, had very nice diework.  So did the locomotives, but, like the Rivarossi HO locomotives, suffered from weak motors and drive trains.  After Atlas began having locos made in their own facilities, their quality improved greatly in their N-scale line.

Looking back now, I think the 1970's was sort of a low point in model railroading.  Many manufacturers had a hard time understanding that, even though there was a great mechanical similarity between trains and slot cars, the market for the two were quite different.  Model race cars are a little too much, perhaps, like real race cars.  They are used to compete with, and can only maintain a competitive advantage for a few months at most.  By then, they are either worn out, or replaced by the next improved version.  This may sound like a good opportunity to manufacturers: your customers are apt to keep continually upgrading their equipment.
Until they realize they have accumulated several hundred dollar's worth of uncompetitive and therefore useless equipment.

Model trains, on the other hand, are good for years if they are good quality to begin with, and are properly maintained.  But, that doesn't mean that the customers are only going to buy once.  The surviving firms seem to have figured this out.

Les

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on May 06, 2012, 07:58:34 PM
lionel's gp30 was a pancake motored job veru similar to bachmann at the time. the gp30 later became a part of bachmann's line, so i wonder if it was produced for lionel by bachmann.

the ahm, mehano locomotives featured a motor mounted vertically, geared directly to the wheels with no reduction. it is a wonder they ran as well as they did.

the atlas locomotives were smooth runners but had a couple of design flaws. the first was an extremely low gearbox cover on the trucks. these locomotives would hang up on kadee uncoupling magnets, making yard work difficult. the second flaw was major, and caused me to not buy their locomotives for about 20 years. the wheelsets featured metal treads on plastic hubs, and the treads would work their way partially loose resulting in a locomotive prone to derailments. atlas's early locomotives were later released by con-cor, who fixed the wheelset problem.

overall, the most durable and reliable locomotives in the 1970s were the athearns. those were bulletproof. you could tear them down and rebuild them, parts were readily available, and best of all there were aftermarket kits which would drop the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1. until i went dcc, i stuck with those regeared units.


now, with dcc, we can do with programming what once took a regear kit. and most manufacturers have expone4ntially improved the quality of their drives to the point where entry level locomotives such as walthers trainline, or bachmann's gp40 or ft, perform better than those athearns did. and they can be had for about the same price as the athearns listed for 25 years ago.

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 06, 2012, 10:20:14 PM
jward,

I agree. The Athearn HO units were a good value for the price, and were indeed "bulletproof".  Most of my HO units back then were Athearn, I felt they were the best in their price range.

I don't recall having any Atlas HO locomotives, although I do have several N-scale units.  I had several of the early ones that I literally wore out: they were the Rivarossi ones.  I also have some late-model Atlas units that are good performers.

I was not aware of the wheel problem with early HO Atlas units you mentioned.  I think a careful application of superglue would have solved the problem, if it had existed back then.

Model Power imported N-scale locomotives back then that varied greatly in quality.  They sold a FA-unit that had a plastic frame and an open-frame motor that drove through the rear truck.  A much better built locomotive line they sold was made in West Germany as Trix.  They made a FM switcher that was so good that I literally wore three of them out.  It had a metal frame with an open-frame motor that drove through both trucks.

I made a trade with a local collector in 1969.  I traded him my Lionel 0-27 stuff for some HO stuff.  My engine was a 2-6-4 that would not run.  In return, I got an Athearn rubber band drive Geep and two Rivarossi E-8's.
I repainted everything.  The Geep into GN, the E's into CB&Q.  10 years later, I swapped them for N-scale.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 07, 2012, 09:53:11 AM
Speaking of the Athearn Hi-F drive reminded me that I wanted to share my experience with the Little Hustler I 'won' on eBay recently. When the unit came I was amazed at its condition. This locomotive was never touched a kid's hands as it was in mint condition. I checked the drive bands and they were in place so what the heck...onto the layout it went. 'Turned up the power and its electrical motor went into warp 6...but the locomotive remained in place. A quick check showed that the seller (I assume) merely replaced the drive bands with any rubber band that sorta fit. I have since ordered a 'drive belt conversion kit' (8 bands that are not rubber bands and new motor shaft - driveshaft connectors) and am awaiting its delivery. Unbelievably Athearn still sells the original drive bands; but they are out of stock currently.

When I get things running, I'll share the results.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 07, 2012, 12:51:16 PM
Oh--I can agree the Athearn locomotives, at least for awhile, were the best thing.

However, if you wanted an Alco Century, or a Baldwin Sharknose--well, Athearn just wasn't an option for those.

I also vividly remember unloading the first run of Stewart/Kato F Units at the distributor back in the day, opening the cases and seeing the brand new models, and how they somewhat revolutionized model railroading.  (By that time Atlas also had gotten their act together and did some very fine FP-7's which still sell new in box for good money--and they are capable of running a very long time).

John
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 07, 2012, 04:58:23 PM
Yeah, back in the day if did diesel modeling it was almost all Atheran/EMD - F-7, GP-7/9, SW-1200.  Mantua did the Sharks in cast metal for a while, but they didn't seem to be around for long.  Athearn also, of course, did the Alco PA's.  I think the first chop-nose diesel was the GP-20 by Tyco, but it was an indifferent runner.  Our old club took the Tyco body and mounted it on a Hobbytown of Boston mechanisim to make a reliable runner. 

Alco Models specialized in doing brass import diesels, but for the most part the mechanisms were junk.  A lot of guys would take the brass bodies and mate them to Atheran mechs just to get a reliable runner. 

Athearn took a flyer on doing the UP DD-40 in 1969, using the design plans released by EMD.  Unfortunately, EMD and UP decided late in the design process to use the wide cab instead of the standard Geep chopped nose, so the model didn't match the final prototypes.  It was pretty close to the DD-35, so it wasn't a total loss.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 08, 2012, 09:56:57 AM
What amazes me is the quality of the running gear on some of the early brass locomotives. I still have two brass locomotives: a 19th century mogul (Ken Kidder) and a Ma & Pa Consolidation (Akane). At present neither of these models run...probably due to years on the shelf. When they were running, they ran rather poorly. The detailing is exceptional - I guess the motor/gearing hadn't yet advanced to the point where they could be considered great runners.

Frankly, I bought these brass 'jewels' (+ a Gem American 4-4-0 which is long gone) because they were in the stratosphere to a young person in the early 1960s.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 08, 2012, 12:52:41 PM
There was a cheap Baldwin Shark on the market back then, but I don't remember who made it.  I think it was Tyco, but it might have been Life-Like.  I didn't have one, mainly because none of the railroads I was interested in owned one.  It had a plastic body, so it wasn't the Mantua metal bodied one.

Sometimes, you can look back and remember something you wish you had bought, but didn't.  Once I saw this very funky HO train at a hobby shop.  It was "new old stock" and priced in my price range.  I was basically broke, so you know it was pretty cheap.

As I recall, it was a plastic-bodied train: loco and cars only.  I think it was even unpainted.  The loco was an ALCO DL-109 and the cars may have been articulated.  I can't remember the brand for sure, but I'm thinking it was Varney (already defunct at the time).

I passed this one up as "too weird".  A day or two later, I changed my mind and went back to buy it.  It had been sold.

Interesting point about the brass HO locomotives.  I could never afford one, but assumed that their performance would be in line with their price and appearance.  A few years later, I discovered (through the experience of others) that many of them did not live up to their image.

I also remember reading in RMC back then a review of some Korean-made HO brass cabooses.  These things were not hand-made from soldered sheet brass, like the usual brass models.  Instead, these were cast out of brass- the whole caboose was a hollow brass casting!  They were factory-painted by being dipped in orange paint!  But- they were brass cabooses.  And cheap, too. 

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 08, 2012, 01:14:14 PM
Back in 60's and 70's the received wisdom on brass locos was about like this:  The best consistent runners came from PFM United.  The PFM Tenshodo models were well-detailed, but often ran with a fair amount of gear noise.  Most of the Akane models ran pretty well, but lacked some of the detailing of the PFM offerings. 

Models from Gem were all over the map, both as to detailing and running characteristics.  The EBT Mike I bought back then came with a Mantua open-frame motor that stuck out the back of the cab.  The gear ratio was not matched to the loco, so it ran way too fast.  I finally replaced the motor with a Faulhaber micro-motor with a 3.45 to 1 gearhead mated to the original worm, and it now runs very well.  However, the detailing left a lot to be desired. 

Balboa models were also a hit-and-miss.  Some ran very well; others needed a fair amount to TLC. 

As for that orange caboose, no it wasn't cast as one piece.  It was NWSL's first venture with the Koreans when they first tried to break into the brass building business.  They were so bad that NWSL marketed them as the "Disaster Series".  Virtually nothing was assembled straight, and the orange paint was sometimes enhanced with paintbrush bristles and a fingerprint.

The early plastic Sharks were brought in by Model Power, and were very nice runners.  I think they were made in Yougoslavia.





Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 08, 2012, 01:58:22 PM
Thanks.
My memory sometimes gets hazy after 40+ years.  I thought those things were cast.

"Disaster Series"!  At least it was attempt to salvage something.

I've seen some cabooses that have been through wrecks.  They didn't have many straight corners either.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 08, 2012, 04:16:16 PM
A fellow vendor, at the Birmingham train show last Saturday, was selling a milk crate full of old car kits. Names such as Silver Streak, Mainline, Varney and others were represented. A young fellow was looking through the kits and remarked; "What are all these pieces of printed paper for?" The vendor explained that they were to be glued on the car sides to represent the prototype car - since the car 'body' consisted of a block of bare wood. There was a moment of silence and the chap spoke up again; "What are the pieces of paper for?" Needless to say he didn't buy one of the kits.

Probably because of this thread, I decided to look through some of these vintage kits. Wow...how far things have progressed. Some of the kits seemed to be from the war years (uh, that's World War 2 for you young folks), and were made entirely of wood and had paper/cardstock printed overlays. There were no trucks nor couplers as the builder was supposed to supply them (common when metal was rationed for the war effort). Some of the later kits (probably from the early-to-mid 1950s) did include trucks and X2F couplers (although many of the truck frames were made of zamac and had serious corrosion). Paper side overlays were still evident in these kits with such things as gussets being represented by print...not 3D.

Later kits were made of metal and more closely resembled the prototype (I refer to Varney and Ulrich). By 'resembled' I mean barely - as they wouldn't hold a candle to today's kits. I guess to a limited degree, the standards were necessarily lower back then.

On a different note for all you who like to reminisce: You have to 'plunk down' the $200 for the Model Railroader DVD of 75 years of back issues. I just received mine and am only into the late 1930s. Having said that, it is amazing how the advanced modelers of the day could scratchbuild some of their locomotives - using the materials of the day. Check those old issues out and see what you think.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 08, 2012, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: CNE Runner on May 08, 2012, 04:16:16 PM
Probably because of this thread, I decided to look through some of these vintage kits. Wow...how far things have progressed. Some of the kits seemed to be from the war years (uh, that's World War 2 for you young folks), and were made entirely of wood and had paper/cardstock printed overlays. There were no trucks nor couplers as the builder was supposed to supply them (common when metal was rationed for the war effort). Some of the later kits (probably from the early-to-mid 1950s) did include trucks and X2F couplers (although many of the truck frames were made of zamac and had serious corrosion). Paper side overlays were still evident in these kits with such things as gussets being represented by print...not 3D.

Later kits were made of metal and more closely resembled the prototype (I refer to Varney and Ulrich). By 'resembled' I mean barely - as they wouldn't hold a candle to today's kits. I guess to a limited degree, the standards were necessarily lower back then.

Those kits ought to be in some museum of model railroading somewhere.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 08, 2012, 05:40:06 PM
There are toy train museums like the one near Strasburg, PA, that have all sorts of old trains--including the later Tyco stuff in them.

However, there are plenty of people sitting on inventory of those old wood and metal kits even now--most guys never assemble them.

I have a truck driver friend who must have at least 50 of those old wooden kits brand new in the box.  Who knows when or if he'll ever assemble them--most guys just don't ever get around to it.

To me, those old kits are actually quite common, as I've seen plenty of them here in PA.

Regarding brass models--most of the ones I've ever bought do indeed run pretty well--but I stick to 1980's or later vintage, with a few exceptions for Westside or PFM models--especially the ones built by Micro Cast Mizuno in Japan.  The issue with brass is that I can no longer afford those high quality models--so I stick to plastic.

John

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 09, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
Most craftsman-style kits did not include trucks and couplers.  In the case of trucks, it was likely two things - It would up the cost of the kit (a set of Central Valley trucks might cost almost as much as the kit) and modeler's preferences for what type of trucks they use.  Second, there was no standard coupler (still isn't, actually) so it was a waste to put something in that most likely wasn't going to be used by the modeler.  Some old Varney kits came with cast metal dummy couplers as a default.  The X2f "horn-hook" coupler gained some traction becuase it was easy to cast in plastic and assemble into the model.  And as noted previously in this thread, there were quite a few coupler choices out there  - Mantua or Baker loop and hooks; Devore and Roundhouse working knuckles; the horn-hooks; the original pre-magnetic Kadee's.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on May 09, 2012, 01:28:00 PM
The more I read here, the more it seems we simply take for granted today--we've forgotten how far we've come.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 09, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on May 08, 2012, 05:40:06 PM
However, there are plenty of people sitting on inventory of those old wood and metal kits even now--most guys never assemble them.

I have a truck driver friend who must have at least 50 of those old wooden kits brand new in the box.  Who knows when or if he'll ever assemble them--most guys just don't ever get around to it.

To me, those old kits are actually quite common, as I've seen plenty of them here in PA.

Must be your circle of acquaintances. I've lived all but one of my 54 years in Pennsylvania and I've never seen a one of those kits, only read about them.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 09, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: ebtnut on May 09, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
The X2f "horn-hook" coupler gained some traction becuase it was easy to cast in plastic and assemble into the model.

Wouldn't you say a little more than "some traction"? Surely horn-hooks were "industry standard" in ready-to-run for close to 40 years, weren't they? I mean, not that they "set the standard" but that every manufacturer used them. Every RTR locomotive and car that was bought for me as a child in the Sixties came with them, and even every MDC-Roundhouse kit that I bought for myself in the Seventies and Eighties came with them, too.

And then when I wasn't looking, all of the sudden knuckle couplers became the "industry standard."  ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Doneldon on May 09, 2012, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 09, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Surely horn-hooks were "industry standard" in ready-to-run for close to 40 years, weren't they?

J-J-

Yes, they certainly were the effective industry standard, even as they were reviled for their
appearance and barely adequate performance. They weren't very durable, either.
                                                                                                                              -- D
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 09, 2012, 06:30:20 PM
Yeah, horn-hook couplers.

From what I've read, they were a result of an industry-wide need for a common coupler in HO scale that would be cheap enough to include in both kits and ready-to-run equipment.  Someone in the NMRA designed the thing, and made it available to use without a fee to manufacturers.

Prior to this, there was no standardized coupler, although there were several competing designs.  Rolling stock either came with a proprietary coupler made by the manufacturer, or with no couplers at all.  Buyers would have to buy the couplers of their choice and install them.  Sounds like a mess!

The horn-hook couplers had their appearance and operational limitations, but the big problem with them was, although the operating and appearance were standardized, their construction wasn't.  Different manufacturers used various materials to build them, and various means to spring them.  So horn-hook couplers made by different builders did not necessarily work well together.

A basic probem was that they depended on spring action in a horizontal plane to operate.  This made them disposed to causing derailments when backing up.  They were also difficult to adjust for differences in height.

By the 1960's, even though horn-hooks were the industry standard, few model railroads featured in magazines made use of them.  Most used the KayDee couplers.  These worked well if installed and adjusted correctly, used magnetic uncoupling, and, best of all, looked like actual couplers.

KayDee had a tight lock (no pun intended) on its patents.  Their couplers sold at a premium price in a market without competition.  The flood gates opened when the patents expired.

KayDee couplers are still produced, and they are still top-quality.  But there are lots of competing brands now that operate well and will mate with KayDee.  KayDee offers a great variety of couplers, including conversion kits for specific locomotives, and trucks.  A former KayDee division, MicroTrains, offers pretty much the same selection in N-scale.

A lot of model railroaders had converted to KayDee or MicroTrains couplers before the competitive couplers were on the market.  It was an expensive conversion if you had a lot of equipment, but worth it.
A lot of clubs also required these couplers on equipment used on club railroads.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on May 10, 2012, 11:06:31 AM
Quote from: Desertdweller on May 09, 2012, 06:30:20 PM
KayDee had a tight lock (no pun intended) on its patents.  Their couplers sold at a premium price in a market without competition.  The flood gates opened when the patents expired.

Thanks, Les. So maybe that at least partly explains the industry switch?
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on May 10, 2012, 11:44:29 AM
if i remember correctly, mchenry was the first kadee knockoff on the market, and bachmann was the first to offer knuckle couplers on their rolling stock.

we called the x2f couplers "decil hooks" and converted to kadees as fast as possible. as an interim solution, we had severalo "conversion" cars with an x2f on one end and a kadee on the other.

making the knuckle coupler, based on the kadee design, the standard in HO is one of the best things that has happened to the hobby.
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Woody Elmore on May 10, 2012, 12:32:55 PM
When I was in college I had zero funds but I found a hobby shop willing to sell me HO kits for very little. I think I have built one of every kind of HO kit (well, except Red Ball.) My favorites were Silver Streak and the Ambroid series of cars. I once bought a Mainline Models door and a half box car. The wood in the kit didn't match the plans and the plans were close to HO scale but not exact. I managed to build the thing - I remember using staples for grab irons rather than try to form the soft green florist wire that came with the kit. The staples were oversize but looked great when painted.


There was a company in Manhattan who sold via mail order (AHC - America's Hobby Center). They used to sell HO trucks in little white boxes - I don't remember the price but it was something like two pair for a dollar. They were Athearn trucks and were sprung. Who remembers the Athearn car kits where you had to assemble the trucks? They used to supply rubber inserts in place of springs. I converted many a pair to springs.

It is true that the hobby has come a long way. Speaking of brass I agree that the PFM imports made by United and Tenshodo were the best to buy. I had problems with Westside locos - cold soldered parts would come loose. The worst were imported by Empire Midland and Hallmark. These models were being made in Korea, not Japan.

My favorite all time PFM engine was my United USRA mike. It ran like a top and never had a problem. The worst engine I ever had was a Hallmark ATSF doodle bug (M-190?) Not only did the trucks fall apart but the thing had one of those Tyco slant motors. I junked the Hallmark mechanism and mounted a Hobbytown truck with a can motor. The doodlebug then ran nicely - except that, from time to time, parts would fall off!

Like the old song said "Those were the days my friend..."

Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: Desertdweller on May 10, 2012, 12:50:09 PM
Yes.  I think that explains the switch.

Consider the viewpoint of the manufacturer.  You produce models equipped with horn-hook couplers because to equip them with KayDee couplers would put you at a price disadvantage to your competitors.  You have to figure the cost of the horn-hooks into the price of your product.  Yet, you know that most of your customers are discarding the horn-hooks and replacing them with KayDees.  So, they are paying for couplers they don't want, then paying again for couplers they do want.  So, if you can sell your products with KayDee-compatible couplers you can save your customers money in their actual cost of having the product ready to use.  Even if you have to
charge a little more for your products.

All you need is a lower-priced source of KayDee-compatible couplers.  And when they became available, the switch was on!

I recall McHenry being the first brand of KayDee-compatible couplers in HO.

The same thing happened in N-scale.  The Rapido coupler was made available to other N-scale manufacturers
without a fee in an effort to establish an industry standard.  This was even more successful than the horn-hook had been in HO, because the Rapido coupler was adapted world-wide.  

It was also more successful than the horn-hook because it performed better.  Its movement was in a vertical rather than in a horizontal plane, so it was less liable to cause derailments when backing up.  And the construction and materials used were more standardized than the horn-hook.  Almost all Rapido couplers involved a T-shank, with a copper or steel spring pushing on it from behind.  The Rapido coupler also looked somewhat more like a knuckle coupler than did a horn-hook, although it was grossly oversized for N-scale.

The situation for manufacturers in N-scale was the same as that faced by HO manufacturers.  People were buying their products and throwing away the couplers.

N-scale knuckle couplers were also made by KayDee.  Before these were introduced, some frustrated N-scalers were using KayDee HOn3 couplers, which were close to N-scale in size.

KayDee brought out a line of N-scale freight cars that came equipped with their knuckle couplers, or could be had with Rapido couplers at a slightly lower price.

A restructuring of the company established Micro-Trains as a separate company.  The Micro-Trains company sold only N-scale at first, then added Z-scale.  The Micro-Trains N-scale couplers are identical to the KayDee N-scale ones.

Les
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 10, 2012, 01:31:21 PM
Woody - Lord, I remember those early Athearn kits with the you-assemble-them sprung trucks. It didn't take long to learn two tricks: 1) pass a piece of thread through the spring before attempting to squeeze it enough to fit in the bolster ('remember you had to line each end up with those minuscule pins), and 2) you learned to shut all the room light off, lay a lit flashlight on the floor and 'sweep' back and forth until you located that errant spring...in the meantime every 'dust bunny' in the room was briefly illuminated. [This was routine prior to learning trick #1.]

How about all the times we needed to glue to dissimilar materials together (zamac to wood, or brass to plastic)? Given the choice of adhesives in the day Walthers Goo worked about the best...well, for a while anyway.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 17, 2012, 01:29:36 PM
I got a old memory back the other night.  Our club lost its home a few years ago, and we put a lot of stuff in storage.  Deciding that storage wasn't doing anyone any good and with no prospects for a new home on the horizon, we've been cleaning stuff out.  We were going through the last few storage boxes and discovered some cars that were originally part of a display we put together almost 40 years ago illustrating all the different scales and gauges. It was an HOn3 gondola that I had scratchbuilt for the display, to approximately match an On3 gon (haven't found that yet).  It still has its original Central Valley trucks, and Model Engineering Works (remember them?) narrow gauge dummy couplers.  I'll get some Kadees to replace the couplers and it will look fine on the McKeesport club layout when the narrow gauge line gets running this summer. 
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: CNE Runner on May 18, 2012, 09:13:04 AM
EB - It is always good to see some of those 'old timers' running again. Occasionally I take some of my Ulrich, Silver Streak, Ambroid cars off the shelf and give 'em a run. The difference in detail is amazing...especially so when one couples a Silver Streak reefer (circa 1940s) next to a Branchline Blueprint Series car. 'Guess we had either a less discriminating eye - or a better imagination - back in the day.

Ray
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: jward on May 18, 2012, 10:47:02 AM
you keep mentioning the mckeesport club, are you now in the pittsburgh area?
Title: Re: Old Timers' Reminiscing
Post by: ebtnut on May 21, 2012, 01:31:00 PM
J - We have a second home in McKeesport.  It's the one my wife grew up in, so we make regular treks up there.  The club is only about 6 blocks from the house, and I am an associate member.  The plan is to retire from the DC area in the next year or so and move up there permanently.  Then I can be a full-time participant.