Some time back there was a posting where the Bachmann indicated that July was when Bachmann made their announcements of what new items that would be producing. When in July?
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 29, 2012, 06:33:31 PM
Some time back there was a posting where the Bachmann indicated that July was when Bachmann made their announcements of what new items that would be producing. When in July?
Obviously we will find out in July. We have not gone into June yet. Patience Grasshopper.
Rich
Oh boy! *jumps up and down* come onnnnn western steamers
More diesels with sound GP's and SD's or at least give enough room to add a speaker without having to mill down the chassis.
I am hoping for a specific restored Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 numbered 261. If it would be a standard line engine, oh well, make it a sound value on board engine with the heavy steam sounds and the Frisco 1522 whistle. If it would be a spectrum line steamer, please Bachmann, make it with a sound module that has sounds recorded from the real thing since it is still around and hopefully done with its overhaul soon. For western engines, I am hoping for something like the Grand Canyon Railway 4960 and Grand Canyon Railway 28... or the Sierra Railway #3.
Wow...Just like my grandson sitting on Santa's lap... I just got my chuckle for the day reading this thread. Say, do any of you "old men" remember Jordan Marsh in Boston? They used to have a humongous layout set up in an area called "Santa's Toyland". My mother and I would go into Boston by train and off to Jordan's we'd go! She's drop me off in in toyland and that's where I'd stay...
Rich
Quote from: MilwaukeeRoadfan261 on May 30, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
I am hoping for a specific restored Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 numbered 261.
MilwRd-
I hate the role of wet blanket, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Specific locomotives are almost never modeled in broad-market plastic HO. You will see them in brass and possibly in specialized lines like Broadway Limited, Precision Scale or Mike's Train House.
The problem for a manufacturer like Bachmann is that they have huge costs in manufacturing the first item of anything they sell, and they sell a LOT of items. So they need to sell a ton of something at a reasonable cost in order to recoup their research, design, tooling and marketing expenses. Broadway Limited or brass sell comparatively few models, so their expenses are lower. But they sell at prices much higher than Bachmann in order to cover those expenses despite the fewer units they sell. It's different ways of doing the modeling business: Models with affordable prices sold in large numbers (Bachmann) or limited production, high-priced models (BLI, Precision, some MTM, brass). Or think Chevrolet vs Lexus. Or Christian Brothers vs Remy. Or Maybelline vs Elizabeth Arden. Or GE vs Sub-Zero or Viking. Or Outback Steakhouse vs Ruth's Chris. Examples abound in almost every product category.
You probably understand this already but sometimes it's helpful to consciously apply this thinking to a specific model which we covet. For me, I'd like to see a beautifully decorated, sound-equipped, DCC Santa Fe 2900 Class Northern at an approachable price. Am I likely to see one? Sadly, from my perspective, no. So let's cry together and drink a really GREAT bottle of wine. That, I
can afford!
-- D
"For western engines, I am hoping for something like the Grand Canyon Railway 4960 and Grand Canyon Railway 28... or the Sierra Railway #3." Keep in mind - 4960 began life as a CB&Q loco with a considerably different look than it has now. No. 28 was originally a Lake Superior and Ishpheming loco, and I believe the GCRy gave it a new look as well. Sierra 3 might be a candidate at some point, though Tyco did the loco way back when, even though it was considerably oversize for HO scale. Doneldon stated the case well as to why manufacturers like Bachmann generally bring in "stock" locos - those that can fairly represent a number of similar locos that were used on different roads. The imported brass market in past tried to help fill the niche for specific locos, though that market has gotten very pricey in recent years and a lot fewer models are coming in.
Good point about specialty locomotives. For we B&O fans, we got lucky... lucky perhaps because the EM1 appeals others besides Beano lovers. There are a bunch (I mean a big bunch) of folks out there who collect only articulated locomotives. Thus, we got a loco that used to be a brass-only product. I am grateful for that. Plus, what a feather-in-the-cap for the Bachmann folks who put out a great running, great looking, and good sounding locomotive, at a more-than-reasonable price point.
If there are any new locomotives announced at all this year, I am coming around to the realization that almost every locomotive put out by the USRA has been done by Bachmann and/or others. I say 'almost' because we haven't seen a USRA Pacific, yet. Oh sure, there have been Pennsy, B&O, etc 4-6-2s made by a number of companies. But a USRA version would be nice because it could be easily modified to any number of specific railroads to ended up with the USRA Pacific. At least, I can't think of a USRA version in recent memory. Just a thought.
Another thought: steam fans got a lot to be happy about last year. Perhaps the modern diesel era folks will get something new.
Isn't anticipation wonderful?
Regards,
Jonathan
Quote from: jonathan on May 31, 2012, 07:46:31 PM
Good point about specialty locomotives. For we B&O fans, we got lucky... lucky perhaps because the EM1 appeals others besides Beano lovers. There are a bunch (I mean a big bunch) of folks out there who collect only articulated locomotives. Thus, we got a loco that used to be a brass-only product. I am grateful for that. Plus, what a feather-in-the-cap for the Bachmann folks who put out a great running, great looking, and good sounding locomotive, at a more-than-reasonable price point.
If there are any new locomotives announced at all this year, I am coming around to the realization that almost every locomotive put out by the USRA has been done by Bachmann and/or others. I say 'almost' because we haven't seen a USRA Pacific, yet. Oh sure, there have been Pennsy, B&O, etc 4-6-2s made by a number of companies. But a USRA version would be nice because it could be easily modified to any number of specific railroads to ended up with the USRA Pacific. At least, I can't think of a USRA version in recent memory. Just a thought.
Another thought: steam fans got a lot to be happy about last year. Perhaps the modern diesel era folks will get something new.
Isn't anticipation wonderful?
Regards,
Jonathan
Are you aware that BLI will be doing a USRA light pacific soon.
BLI should do very well with this offering, late as it is as no one else was interested. I was sure that MTH would be doing one and had they I would have been very disappointed, and of course would not buy any.
I didn't hold my breath on the D&RGW 4-8-2 M-75's and M-78's, so I bought the brass versions and I'm happy with them although the price is steep I have 1 of each and awaiting my next M-75 next week and an M-64 4-8-4 on layaway, and I must say watch out for road specific brass, once in a blue moon you'll find a deal and snatch it up, now I have a respectable roster of engines the old farts at the local club get green about and I'm only 23 on a budget, that being said patience and determination is a virtue, you can always attain your dreams if you work hard for them.
As for a Milwaukee 4-8-4 --> brasstrains.com has one for $1,100 and it can be yours if you put it on layaway for 4 months at $275 a month
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMAG0125.jpg)
Quote from: ryeguyisme on May 31, 2012, 10:43:51 PM
As for a Milwaukee 4-8-4 --> brasstrains.com has one for $1,100 and it can be yours if you put it on layaway for 4 months at $275 a month
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMAG0125.jpg)
Rye-
I think MilwRdFan261 was thinking substantially less than $1100. I can't as I blame him!
-- D
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 31, 2012, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: jonathan on May 31, 2012, 07:46:31 PM
Good point about specialty locomotives. For we B&O fans, we got lucky... lucky perhaps because the EM1 appeals others besides Beano lovers. There are a bunch (I mean a big bunch) of folks out there who collect only articulated locomotives. Thus, we got a loco that used to be a brass-only product. I am grateful for that. Plus, what a feather-in-the-cap for the Bachmann folks who put out a great running, great looking, and good sounding locomotive, at a more-than-reasonable price point.
If there are any new locomotives announced at all this year, I am coming around to the realization that almost every locomotive put out by the USRA has been done by Bachmann and/or others. I say 'almost' because we haven't seen a USRA Pacific, yet. Oh sure, there have been Pennsy, B&O, etc 4-6-2s made by a number of companies. But a USRA version would be nice because it could be easily modified to any number of specific railroads to ended up with the USRA Pacific. At least, I can't think of a USRA version in recent memory. Just a thought.
Another thought: steam fans got a lot to be happy about last year. Perhaps the modern diesel era folks will get something new.
Isn't anticipation wonderful?
Regards,
Jonathan
Are you aware that BLI will be doing a USRA light pacific soon.
BLI should do very well with this offering, late as it is as no one else was interested. I was sure that MTH would be doing one and had they I would have been very disappointed, and of course would not buy any.
Wasn't the 4-6-2 that Athearn made a few years ago a USRA Light Pacific? And as far as a Milwaukee Road S-3, I was thinking more in the price range and style of the GS-4.
Quote from: Doneldon on May 31, 2012, 10:59:10 PM
Rye-
I think MilwRdFan261 was thinking substantially less than $1100. I can't as I blame him!
-- D
I used to be scared before I decided to take the leap and I have to say the thought of having unique steam, is quite addicting, most all my power(brass included) has some sort of kitbashing done to it, brass has its way of making you appreciate that leap. Can't wait for the day when those engines are worth tenfold less the fraction they are worth now, I'll be buying them by the dozen and believe me with my generation entering the mid twenties and the kids born after me, the demand for brass steam will dwindle with time, brass USRA engines are practically worthless unless you need a chassis or prefer all metal due to the plastic/diecast market flood of them.
Now if only bachmann could make Denver and Salt lake 2-6-6-0's and Norfolk and western 2-6-6-2 Z1's as both of those were found on the rio grande as well
stopped holding my breath for a N&W K3 4-8-2, bought one for a really good price recently, however I have to kitbash a tender for it
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560682_3646289910871_1226810467_n.jpg)
Rye-
You are absolutely right. I'm now selling brass locos for four or five times what I couldn't afford to pay when I was your age but that market is due to crash soon. There's a huge array of model train equipment available now because all of us old model rails are at a point in our lives where we can afford to indulge ourselves and we have the time to enjoy doing so. The demographics will start to shift in the next two years, however, and there will start to be more and more expensive toys available to an ever smaller pool of modelers who will have more trains than they ever thought possible. Good for you!!
-- D
I still think Bachmann should take their PRR K4 boiler and put a 2-8-2 mechanism under it and with a few modifications have a very nice PRR L1 Mike. BLI is coming out with a PRR H10 2-8-0 and it's going to sell really, really, well given the number of people I've seen talking about ordering four or more for delivery next year. I can see that being a bestseller for them for years for BLI. The same would be true of the L1 since it's never been out except in brass and seems like a favorite for a lot of PRR fans as well as other folks. Bachmann should steal a march on BLI with an L1 since BLI seems to be trying to become THE source for PRR engines. If Bachmann has something solid like an L1 there will be a lot of people who own no Bachmann engines buying it and finding out that Bachmann is every bit as good as the BLI engines. As far as I can tell, the BLI K4 isn't a bit better than the Bachmann one for an operating layout and the Bachmann engine is a lot more reliable on less than perfect track, too. A lot of PRR fans, though, stick to BLI and ignore the Bachmann K4 in spite of the fact that they'd be happier with the Bachmann product if they'd just try one.
I also think Bachmann should make a NYC H10b and a NYC L2 series 4-8-2, both with overhung feedwater heaters and visible plumbing. Neither have ever been available except in brass and from what I hear from other modelers are popular with folks that don't even model the NYC. The Bachmann Heavy Mountain with a straight top boiler and different plumbing could be the basis for the L2b, or better still, an L2d with a sunken Elesco FWH, and Bachmann also already has a 2-8-2 mechanism that might work for the H10b with some modification to match the heavier running gear.
But, that's just me looking at what I think Bachmann could do based on what they already have that might help defray the expense of getting something into production rather than starting from scratch for something new. Given the way BLI sells PRR and NYC engines as fast as they build them I think any of the engines I mentioned would be solid sellers. One thing for sure, the EM1 is selling to a lot of people who aren't B&O fans so whether that's because it's a very popular engine in it's own right or because it's a Bachmann articulated that puts other companies to shame is a question I really don't know how to answer.
Bowser offered the L1 as a kit for many years.
I like the idea of doing the L1 since to some significant degree the tooling costs are already invested in the form of the K4 boiler, cab and tender.
Bowser offered the L1 as a kit for many years.
The last one of those kits I saw on Ebay cost a good bit more than the street price of a Bachmann K4. Are those kits usually that much these days? Also, I don't recall those Bowser kits being all that easy to get running right. At least I remember a lot of people who had trouble getting them to be smooth engines rather than having a waddle and having to redo the siderods and running gear numerous times. I could be thinking about the Arbor kits, though, so maybe the Bowser stuff is still worthwhile when you find them.
I have a PRR fanatic friend who I've known for years and still touch base with now and then, and he's been nursing his fleet of six Bowser L1 engines for years. He's down to three of them these days and watching for PFM L1s on Ebay. They all seem to get away from him although as I recall you can sometimes pick up a brass one for less than five hundred, often a good bit less. People have a tough time getting brass of that era to run well the same as they did with the kits, though. I have to keep an eye on my brass Berks or they get out of sorts and I have a pair of Sunset Hudsons that never have run right and defy all my efforts to get them to run right. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and get BLI Hudsons to replace them.
My son and I fiddled around with moving the Bachmann boiler onto a BLI Heavy Mike and it wouldn't be difficult at all. The only major thing is that the front of the firebox beneath the running boards is further back on the K4 than on the Mike but you could either take a bit out of the K4 boiler or modify the frame from the Mike, either way it wouldn't be difficult. I say, "not difficult" from the perspective of being averse to cutting up engines due to my lack of skill at such things. So, if it looks simple to me it's really simple. If I had a Bachmann Mike I'd see how tough that would be to use the K4 boiler on although the Mike Bachmann has now is very clearly a light engine and not really a good match with the L1 Mike.
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 07:01:21 AM
I also think Bachmann should make a NYC H10b and a NYC L2 series 4-8-2, both with overhung feedwater heaters and visible plumbing.
Sign me up for an H-10 and a L-2a they are beautiful freight haulers for NYC
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 08:19:32 AM
Bowser offered the L1 as a kit for many years.
My son and I fiddled around with moving the Bachmann boiler onto a BLI Heavy Mike and it wouldn't be difficult at all.
I did this to my NJ Custom Brass DRGW M-78 4-8-2 and with some cutting and kitbashing came out really nice, matched it together with the BLI mikado chassis and modified the front of the frame for the extended cylinders and 4 lead wheels
Now bachmann has their Aux. Norfolk and western tender in their tooling why not make a Norfolk and western K3 4-8-2???? They were found on 6 different railways like the wheeling lake erie, rio grande, and nickel plate
Project I'm working on, I didn't have a tender for this K3 so I must make one out of bachmanns Aux tender and it's simpler than I originally thought. I'm using the other one to make a Z1 from a bachmann 2-6-6-2 (the one with the vanderbilt tender) and PSC Z1 parts
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0011.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0012.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/BC96043.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/arti.png)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/Sept_2010_Model_Contest_Steam_1st_Andrew_Merriam_2_DRGW_2-6-6-2.jpg)
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 08:19:32 AM
Bowser offered the L1 as a kit for many years.
At least I remember a lot of people who had trouble getting them to be smooth engines rather than having a waddle and having to redo the siderods and running gear numerous times. I could be thinking about the Arbor kits, though, so maybe the Bowser stuff is still worthwhile when you find them.
I only did one Bowser kit to completion (I have another on the shelf) but it ran pretty well, certainly well for the day. I had an Arbor kit, and it was a fight all the way. The parts didn't fit well, the mechanism was problematic, geez.
I have to say that none of that stuff is like just opening a Bachmann box, putting a little lubrication, programming the DCC and going out with the next train... times have changed, and as long as they make what you want, a whole lot for the better.
Quote from: ryeguyisme on June 01, 2012, 01:49:06 PM
I did this to my NJ Custom Brass DRGW M-78 4-8-2 and with some cutting and kitbashing came out really nice, matched it together with the BLI mikado chassis and modified the front of the frame for the extended cylinders and 4 lead wheels
Now bachmann has their Aux. Norfolk and western tender in their tooling why not make a Norfolk and western K3 4-8-2???? They were found on 6 different railways like the wheeling lake erie, rio grande, and nickel plate
First off, that's really nice work you should be proud of.
Now that you mention it, the K3 would make a really good choice. I think even the RF&P used them for a while or at least had them on loan for a while. I had a pair of the Sunset brass ones but a cat got one of them when I had a layout in my garage. Concrete floors are not good for brass engines and destroying brass engines is not good for cats. My other K3 is the best running Sunset engine I've had and over the years I've had several different ones that I've traded away. When I think about the various railroads that seem to always be popular with a wide variety of modelers, the D&RGW and the NYC are way under represented in anything except brass even though most people can recognize their engines and like them. The SP and ATSF are so unique that people tend to only want to use them if they're modeling those specific roads but D&RGW and NYC seem to be attractive to folks who have no intention of modeling either road.
Athearn just painting D&RGW on the tender of their Challenger was almost an insult given the way Bachmann can make different front ends and such for their engines. You'd think that the things that made the D&RGW engines unique wouldn't be that difficult to add. Then there's the L-131 that someone should have the good sense to make since everyone I've ever met who likes steam thinks that beast is beatiful. With the NYC, on the other hand, all sorts of folks make brass and plastic Hudsons and there are tons of brass L4 series around, just not any of engines that were the real backbone of the road, the L2 series and the H10b.
Hopefully Bachmann will get very good sales with the EM1 and then expand their line with an eye to being THE source for NYC and D&RGW engines the way BLI is aiming at being THE Pennsy source. We can always dream, can't we?
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
I had a pair of the Sunset brass ones but a cat got one of them when I had a layout in my garage. Concrete floors are not good for brass engines and destroying brass engines is not good for cats.
Kittyburgers and mittens? :P
LOL. I should have thought of the burgers but I had a friend who owned three dachshunds and his wife wanted a cat. He got her a nice cat for free although the "poor thing" lived in fear of those little weenie critters.
Regards
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
First off, that's really nice work you should be proud of.
I am, it's like my favorite little gem I put alot of hours and fustration getting it to work with three other chassis like an athearn mikado chassis and an IHC mountain chassis which was a dumb idea but I figured I'd butcher the BLI mikado I had since the interest in it was dwindling, so I did and I got it together with sound like any other broadway engine, it could even be mistaken for a broadway test model ::) ::) :o :o
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
Now that you mention it, the K3 would make a really good choice. I think even the RF&P used them for a while or at least had them on loan for a while. I had a pair of the Sunset brass ones but a cat got one of them when I had a layout in my garage. Concrete floors are not good for brass engines and destroying brass engines is not good for cats. My other K3 is the best running Sunset engine I've had and over the years I've had several different ones that I've traded away. When I think about the various railroads that seem to always be popular with a wide variety of modelers, the D&RGW and the NYC are way under represented in anything except brass even though most people can recognize their engines and like them. The SP and ATSF are so unique that people tend to only want to use them if they're modeling those specific roads but D&RGW and NYC seem to be attractive to folks who have no intention of modeling either road.
Athearn just painting D&RGW on the tender of their Challenger was almost an insult given the way Bachmann can make different front ends and such for their engines. You'd think that the things that made the D&RGW engines unique wouldn't be that difficult to add. Then there's the L-131 that someone should have the good sense to make since everyone I've ever met who likes steam thinks that beast is beatiful. With the NYC, on the other hand, all sorts of folks make brass and plastic Hudsons and there are tons of brass L4 series around, just not any of engines that were the real backbone of the road, the L2 series and the H10b.
The Alco built L-97's that DRGW used I believe remained stock, I've seen a dated picture and they are just like the union pacific challengers, nonetheless the DRGW crews hated them, and along came the L-105's
I'm surprised bachmann went with another 2 C&O engines the 2-8-4(which IMO is outdone in so many ways I can't stand to look at them without a sort of gag) and the other 2-6-6-2's which is nice for kitbash fodder
Quote from: Rashputin on June 01, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
Hopefully Bachmann will get very good sales with the EM1 and then expand their line with an eye to being THE source for NYC and D&RGW engines the way BLI is aiming at being THE Pennsy source. We can always dream, can't we?
I don't mean to burst any pennsy fans bubble :P but I gag at the keystone and the belpaires. We need more western engines, and Blackstone was considering standard gauged engines like the M-75 *holds breath* ::)
ryeguyisme--
Lets get some facts correct:
First: DRGW received the L-105 Challengers prior to the L-97 Union Pacific Challengers; the L-105's did not come along "after" the L-97 as seems to be implied by your post. Some have claimed the Rio Grande modified the smokestacks on them but other than that they shipped them off to Clinchfield in more or less "stock" UP configuration.
Second: It was the middle of a war, and the War Production Board tacked the L-97 Challenger onto a Union Pacific order that was in the midst of production--thus saving critical setup time on the factory floor that would have been wasted in setting up to do a small production run of additional L-105's.
Third: There was nothing at all wrong with the UP Challengers, except they weren't the Rio Grande's own design, and they had somewhat less starting tractive effort--but the reason they didn't like them was because they were UP engines, pure and simple.
Also--it is well documented via a telegram sent from the Rio Grande to the DM&IR that the DM&IR Yellowstones, which Rio Grande leased during some winters, were the finest steam locomotives that ever ran on the Rio Grande, in the railroad's opinion.
Donelson and ryeguyisme and others who think brass is going to get cheaper--
You are absolutely dreaming if you think brass prices are going to collapse further than they already have. I would love to smoke what you are smoking--because it's insanely good stuff. Try finding the high quality late models (like for example the Rutland or New Haven engines pictured in the latest brass book) used--it's darn near impossible in some roadnames--they're just not out there to be had--or not at a reasonable price.
Not that many years ago I bought a mint Custom Brass 2-6-6-2 (Z-1a/L-76) for only $600 that ran great--but you will never be able to do that again as most articulateds, indeed most brass models of good quality, have appreciated quite nicely to significantly higher levels.
Given the few rare exceptions when someone is selling something they clearly do not know or appreciate, the only brass engines available cheap are those with known quality control issues that affect a portion of the model run, known mechanism problems, or older runs done in large quantities that need some work to get them up to today's running standards, etc. On some of these prices have been flat for 15 years--but they aren't going any lower.
There are lots of well-detailed basket cases to be had and re-built, but I personally wouldn't touch them as I don't possess the modeling/kitbashing skills displayed above, and am unable to pay the fees charged by real craftsmen to fix 'em up to acceptable standards.
Regarding the BLI and MTH buyers trying Bachmann--we already did and are already here. I love my one EM-1 and the Alco 2-6-0's.
John
I for one would love to see the Rio Grande 4-8-2 (any class of them) available in HO plastic or hybrid. Living in the East I have hunted for the brass ones in the past, but have never seen some classes of them, and the comments I've read online about the work required to make them run right (other than the PFM Crown, which is just a bit noisy with the open frame motor) have scared me away from ever trying to buy one.
Also perhaps I'd love the B&O Q-4d mikado, or the B&O 2-10-2. Or a nice 4-8-2 or 4-6-2 from one of the New England railroads, but without the smoke deflectors.
In my opinion, there are two other articulateds in the running, along with the B&O EM-1, for the title of "most beautiful" articulated ever built. They are the Western Pacific 4-6-6-4, which toiled in the Nevada desert, was rarely photographed, and is not as well remembered, and the other is the Seaboard Air Line/B&O 2-6-6-4. Both were neat, and I'd kill to see either of them in plastic (especially since some brass versions of the WP Challenger are notorious for not being accurate--some were pretty generic D&H/WP/WM models with many common features that make none of them correct).
Finally, I would like to see another road number (besides 7627) of the 1945 order of B&O EM-1's. The 1945 order, with the smaller cover over the front sand lines, is to me the best looking one.
Diesels--all the ones I care about have been done in plastic already, and at age 43, I'm actually purging diesels from the layout in favor of steam. Only two diesels remain, an Atlas S-2 and a Bowser Alco Demo C-628.
John
John, you are correct on the L-97's
however stating that brass steam isn't going to depreciate in value whether new or old, basket case or mint in the coming years and I'm not talking 2 years in the future, I'm talking 20 years when I'm finally middle aged brass prices are going to be significantly less. Having said that I still shell out my meager earnings to buy a piece or 2, and I'm already at a dozen pieces roughly and I've bought and sold a few pieces and honestly the brass market is really good for those who want the engine, not the collective value. If you're holding out on an engine as an investment, I'd be very careful how long you hold on to it. And we weren't speaking on terms of the late stuff either, but even that stuff is having a tough time selling unless its really rare like a DRGW L-62
Most of the engines I want were made up until the late 70's early 80's at the latest, so I can't really say I really have a need for any of the later models other than that L-62 ;) ;)
I bought a key M-75 4-8-2 at $250 in rough shape, but it pulled the paint off the wall, and will continue to do so until I have to replate the drivers, if I'm lucky there's someone around that will do it in the future. I have another one on the way, and I'm anticipating how great that one runs, I don't put a price on my engines. My father asked how much I'd sell my ex-DMIR 2-10-4 kitbash and i couldn't. I put $600 into that whole project and that beasty is mine til the grave.
A fellow named Tom White who own the Yuba River Sub Railroad(DRGW) has I think 3 or 4 yellowstones and lettered them for the DRGW. I'm not too much of a fan of them simply due to the way they remind me too much of the big boys, I'd much prefer a L-131
Most basket cases I own I simply swap out the mechanisms with something similar but simple, and if I need to fix the mechanism again I'd just rebuy the engine it came off of and swap it out, can't do that in normal brass
The custom brass M-78 is a nightmare if you want them to work right, mostly scared me away from custom brass although I would buy another one
My Key Imports M-75 is a swiss watch even in the condition it came in:
Before:(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/2011-08-18-16-48-31-DSC00641.jpg)
During:(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMAG0116.jpg)
After:(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMAG0125.jpg)
the one in the middle... I'm not a fan of the Elesco on the M-75
and finally my M-69 project Ex-N&W K3 4-8-2(no tender and the can motor pooped the bed) that you see earlier in the thread.
Plastic DRGW mountains, yes please sign me up!!!! I'll go bankrupt from preorders haha :D ;D ;) :o
Yes, yes--I don't like Elesco feedwater heaters.
Give me Rio Grande, speed lettering, blue-green boiler (few alive know the real color for sure--at least the green on SP engines), with Worthington fwh.
A nicely painted M-78 was on the cover of RMC years ago. It's a stunning model, and the image of that cover is burned into my brain--but I've never seen one, and have heard horror stories that they need work.
Still--the massive size of the Rio Grande mountains would make for a very impressive plastic version--and I've often dreamed it would come to pass.
However, the legions of B&O fans are also craving a proper 2-10-2, 2-8-2, or just about anything at all actually correct for B&O.
Santa Fe--most of the popular big steam has already been done in plastic, and I doubt a super 2900 model is yet to come because they're just so darn big--not everyone can run one.
The Alco 2-6-0 has opened my eyes toward the possibilities of smaller steam engines. The mainline appears to have a much longer run when I put on a little 2-6-0 with a few cars and a caboose--and my son loves them--especially with the economically priced sound package.
I could appreciate a USRA 4-6-2, as well.
John
P.S. Don't sweat the brass prices falling. You run the stuff, enjoy it, and the nicely done, nicely upgraded stuff like you have will always be worth more. The prices fall on PFM Crowns when new models of the same thing come out that blow the old version away, and the segment of the hobby that buys it simply because it is a Crown or because it says Tenshodo on the box is dying off. My plastic EM-1 will not appreciate because there are plenty of them--even though it's a terrific engine--but the brass models generally make money for their owners if you buy smart in the first place. Just don't overpay for them. One loses money in brass by excessive trading, or by being impatient and wanting to sell it fast--as I have done. If you are patient, hold the models for a few years (especially after any initial dip shortly after some are released) the price almost always goes up. Even the marginal ones go for slightly more than the price 15 years ago.
John here's some pictures for you I just shot:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0015.jpg)
My Custom brass M-78 over a BLI USRA heavy 2-8-2 chassis with sound
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0018.jpg)
M-75 as she is today
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0014.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMGP0016.jpg)
my Ex-DMIR 2-10-4 kinda warped into a DRGW looking engine, note the tender is from a PFM L-131 :P
Interesting, very creative with the 2-10-4. How nice to have that space on which to run the big mamma jamma's too!
I really really like the 3350 and 1553 up above. The finished versions look fantastic.
My problem is I can't bring myself to take an articulated I love from road A and reletter it for road B. Sometimes knowing the history makes it less fun.
Then again, with the EM-1, at the present point in time, I don't even know what roadname, other than B&O, I would want to put on it. A big harvest yellow "MEC" for Maine Central would be somewhat twisted of me to apply...
John
having the space is one thing, knowing you can lose that space is another.... if I ever move out I would deff need the space for everything I own and I have tons of stuff
Thank god for kitbashing and the ability to create your own work of art even if you know the prototype to a science.
I kind of messed around with a mantua 2-6-6-2 to make it look sort of like an L-62 but it's a tad obvious it's not
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on June 01, 2012, 10:49:35 PM
Donelson and ryeguyisme and others who think brass is going to get cheaper--
You are absolutely dreaming if you think brass prices are going to collapse further than they already have. I would love to smoke what you are smoking--because it's insanely good stuff.
Yellow-
I would really like to believe you are right about the future of brass prices but the law of supply and demand tends to prove itself over and over again. Steam lovers are dying in greater numbers every day while few new model rails are being born. Your argument about this would be more credible if you could get the details right, like something as simple as my name!
I can't speak for Rye, but what I'm smoking is easy to find if you're looking for it. It's called
Reality.
-- Doneldon
Quote from: ryeguyisme on June 01, 2012, 11:35:04 PM
however stating that brass steam isn't going to depreciate in value whether new or old, basket case or mint in the coming years and I'm not talking 2 years in the future, I'm talking 20 years when I'm finally middle aged brass prices are going to be significantly less.
I'll just tell you about my experience. When I was your age, I couldn't afford brass either. But I put a few nickels together and bought a couple of pieces, mostly the less expensive ones. It took me a year to save for each one. I was very confident in my career abilities and assumed that my income would grow over time, and I'd be able to afford them later. Guess what happened. My income went up, pretty drastically. I am in my peak earning years. And that brass is not really more affordable to me now, twenty plus years later. The least expensive ones kept pace with inflation, and the medium to upper end ones appreciated more than that.
I'm not sure why you are so confident that the prices are going to plummet. It's not as if plastic prices are plummeting, they aren't. In fact, the prices of plastic models are soaring, even relative to inflation. The plastic and hybrid models are now approaching those of some of the brass models, yet they are still not anywhere near as diverse. It does not follow that the prices of brass will plunge. Particularly not the prices of new models that will be built from here out - because there's inflation in the world, particularly in the Asian economies where brass has traditionally been made. (This is one big contributor to the rising cost of plastic models, in fact.)
Let's look at the DRGW brass f-81. Now why would such a nice model be so readily available now? People are just trying to get rid of them, the PFM's normally would have gone for $1300 to $1500 yet why are they steadily dropping to $1100 and then to $990 and still not selling? I saw just a week ago a PSC F-81 go for $800 and that's a later model than the PFM
But also keep in mind I'm a bloodthirsty bargain hunter, I already got a steal on a key m-64 in mint condition for next to nothing and it looks a lot better than the price inflated PFM model.
The thing is, the value is depreciating with the times, you have to think along the lines of my generation, I dare you to find another 23 year old steam only brass collector with his god awful huge collection(believe me having a lot can be stressful)
I mean sure my peers are really impressed by my mechanical skills and modeling skills, but they aren't into it, we are also a hands on/digital generation. If it doesn't work, give up,if its not ready to run I don't want it, if it doesn't have a decoder then it won't work for me type of kids.
I'm saddened that kits have home the way of the dinosaur and steam is in a way going with it, I stopped reading model railroader simply because the articles becnae more and more about modern equipment and rivet counting and the lack of character like in kitbashing. It's become more about digitalness and less about how to get those bowser/mdc kits to run like a swiss watch
Plus its collecting video games now not locomotives and saving up for that articulated in the glass case. Most kids my age into model railroading are into just diesels for the most part(*curses*) I have yet to meet a die hard steam locomotive aficianado like myself in my generation unless the Thomas line spewed out a few, but I wouldn't rely on those numbers alone.
Again supply and demand, you're right some of the plastic engine prices are on the rise when they've been a few years out of production, look at bachmanns southern pacific heavy 4-8-2 on eBay when they're available, people are fighting over them like piranhas, and then this brass engine that a bunch of guys were bidding against me with a reserve didn't even meet and I came out higher bidder short $100 of the reserve price. I guess people really didn't want that. Even though it was listed at a recent price value for the engine, people simply didn't want it for too much, like the other reserve engines that turn up $100 reserved and reposted over and over again, because their value is still dropping and no one wants the engine for the market price.
When I order parts from precision scale, their prices are rising only due to the growing lack of customers as well as inflation. A buddy of mine bought thousands of PSC parts in one lot for $30. I just hope some of these companies stick around or I'm just going to have to start milling my own parts, which I do sometimes.
The brass Russian decapods however are maintaining a tad higher prices than the spectrum engines because of their metal construction unless you have Jim findleys Tioga pass 2-10-0 which went for 4 figures I believe(he was a legend with John Allen)
Not starting any arguments and I hope you all feel the same nothing more than a healthy debate with points on both sides.
So if bachmann announces another Norfolk and Western engine, say the Z1's that are only made in brass otherwise, would their brass value drop due to a market flood of them? The new bachmann 2-6-6-2's still command a steep price even for dcc only because its still relatively new as well but it will drop off eventually, the older version spectrum 2-6-6-2's are down to $90 dcc ready if you look hard enough
the price of brass diesels is dropping like a rock. why? well consider the fact that almost every diesel made is now available in plastic, most with dcc, and many with sound. and all for less than the price brass used to fetch before dcc.
most brass is not dcc ready, making conversion a pain in the ***, and you really have to be a glutton for punishment to install sound. simply put, most of the diesel market is no longer that interested in brass because there are much better alternatives.
with steam it probably is a differe3nt story. i am not really interested in steam so i wouldn't know.
Steam is going to take a lot longer to drop off simply because of the extensive variety in steam vs diesels, beyond USRA there's so many prototypes made in brass you might go insane trying to keep track of them. But the amount of steam modelers is also diminishing
Quote from: blwfish on June 02, 2012, 03:54:35 AM
I'm not sure why you are so confident that the prices are going to plummet. It's not as if plastic prices are plummeting, they aren't. In fact, the prices of plastic models are soaring, even relative to inflation. The plastic and hybrid models are now approaching those of some of the brass models, yet they are still not anywhere near as diverse. It does not follow that the prices of brass will plunge. Particularly not the prices of new models that will be built from here out
Quote from: jward on June 02, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
the price of brass diesels is dropping like a rock. why? well consider the fact that almost every diesel made is now available in plastic, most with dcc, and many with sound. and all for less than the price brass used to fetch before dcc.
simply put, most of the diesel market is no longer that interested in brass because there are much better alternatives.
with steam it probably is a differe3nt story. i am not really interested in steam so i wouldn't know.
blow and Jeff-
Blow, I must respectfully disagree with you. I don't think that either the popularity or the prices of brass diesel locomotives are heavily influenced by the availability of top-quality plastic models. To some degree, yes, but these are really two distinct markets, with a lot of overlap in customer bases to be sure. The difference is that brass buyers are far more likely to be collectors rather than operators. That's not to say no one ever runs a brass diesel or that there aren't plastic ones relegated to a display shelf or the proverbial roundhouse in the closet, it's just to recognize that there are two fairly distinct markets for brass and plastic locomotives. How much the availability of excellent plastic models influences the interest in or prices of brass diesels, however, is irrelevant to the thesis Rye and I have been writing about: the future of brass steam prices. That's a completely different story, as partly exemplified by Jeff's comment.
To repeat his quotation, "... i'm not really interested in steam ..." That says it all. Go to a train show or convention and you will encounter two groups, old guys like me and younger folks like Jeff.
I grew up in the last years of steam. I lived outside of a small Northwest Indiana bedroom community. We had to cross the Nickel Plate mainline every time we went to town. Often, like daily, we had to wait for a fast freight headed by one of the glorious NP Berks. When I was really little, they scared me. They were huge, noisy, and effectively overhead because our road crossed at a sharp and seriously banked curve which made it seem like the monsters were going to crash right on top of us. My mother worked in Chicago most of my childhood, commuting on the PRR's infamous "Dummy," which was usually pulled by steam. I'd see those engines when my father was home and we went to pick my Mom up. I also had the opportunity to see Grand Trunk and occasional New York Central Steam when my Mom went to pick my Dad up. He worked for the Santa Fe, which enabled additional exposure to steam locos, and commuted to Chicago every ten days for a five-day trip to Los Angeles and back. I remember Rock Island and C&NW steam commuter trains in Chicago and LOTS of steam engines working in Chicago and Gary. So I grew up around working steam engines, not just a rare ride on a tourist railroad. Most of those other old guys at the train shows were also exposed to plenty of working steam as youth. But we're getting older, much older. I already see references to how much smaller the pieces of our models are becoming and how much more clumsy our fingers are. Over the next 20 years, most of us, who now have plenty of money to support the brass steam engine market, will leave the hobby due to death or inability. Who is going to replace us? Nobody, I think.
Look again at that second group at the train show. It's much smaller than the old guy contingent. That alone will limit the demand side of the supply and demand equation. But there is another at least equally impactful factor: None of that younger cohort had the opportunity to see working steam as a routine part of their childhoods. So steam has no glory or romance for most of them, no sentimental meaning, no nostalgia, no identification with "now
this is railroading." When the smaller, younger model rails think railroading, they think "diesel." Is that true for every soul? No, of course not, but it's true for the vast majority. If you doubt that, ask some young model railroaders, if you can find some, or just read Jeff's statement. As a group th
ey aren't interested.
With the exception of a few things which are artificially price controlled, like diamonds, the law of supply and demand governs what something is worth. For brass steam locomotives the supply is likely to be fairly static -- there's no reason to believe brass steam will be thrown away in great quantities or newly manufactured in large numbers. Just the opposite is true on the demand side. As we old guys leave the hobby there will be comparatively few people to replace us. Supply stays the same but demand drops and prices follow the lowered demand. That's not to say that there are no younger hobbyists who will maintain interest in brass steam or that every brass steam loco will plummet in price, even the rare hand-built pieces, but supply will substantially exceed demand which will destroy prices. Frankly, it's only that my old guy cohort has so much disposable income right now which is supporting the market at all. If we still had children to raise and college to pay for we wouldn't be buying much brass, either, and prices would already be down significantly. They're only a little soft so far, but they'll begin dropping consistently over the next 20 years, and at an ever increasing rate. This isn't rocket science, it's elementary economics.
As one last point to support my argument, look at the availability of kits. Years ago, everything came in kits and lots of us bought them because we could stretch our rare hobby dollars over more items than if we bought RTR. But today? It's a different story. Those failing eyes and fat fingers are making it less fun for many oldsters to build a kit and we have enough money now that the savings versus RTR isn't so important. Toss in the instant gratification era of our larger culture and how busy people are and you can see that many younger modelers would rather spend a little more for RTR and save their time for running trains rather than building them. Just to stop the irrelevant contention that "well, I know lots of younger modelers who still build kits," I'm not saying no one builds kits today, just that far fewer are being built. The proof of that is how much RTR has come to dominate model railroad store shelves. It's most of the merchandise now. Heck, even Woodland Scenics, a company which was established to supply and grew on supplying scenic materials, now sells assembled structures, as does Walthers and dozens of other manufacturers.
Well, for the few of you with the patience to have read so far, let me conclude with a thanks and the advice to wait 10 or 20 years to buy brass steam if you like it. It will be a fraction of today's price by then.
-- D
QuoteI have yet to meet a die hard steam locomotive aficianado like myself in my generation unless the Thomas line spewed out a few, but I wouldn't rely on those numbers alone.
22 years old and my fleet is 99% steam. I own one brass loco (2trk shay) and am currently saving for a N&W 4-8-0. The problem is I'm trying to pay off college, move out of my parents house, and I drive a 1994 GMC Sierra that is ready to die. So locomotives and modeling in general have really taken the back burner.
Thomas did play a big role in it for me.
Kids these days do think modern...but they do get excited and beg for the throttle when my N&W y6b 2-8-8-2 comes around the corner hauling 60 hoppers.
-Brad
Brad,
You can't beat steam ;D ::)
The PFM DRGW F-81 is a Crown model; as such its price was grossly inflated in the past. It is a poor example to use for brass model prices or values, and comparing it to a Precision Scale F-81 is even worse, as in general the Precision Scale brass models tend to look pretty good but run poorly. If a particular model's price falls it is usually because there is a problem with the model's accuracy (PFM exaggerated the boiler diameter by 10% on a number of engines to make them appear more impressive--this definitely included the M-75 4-8-2) or there is a known problem with running/quality control. In general, brass models do not go down in value, but up.
Crowns in general no longer enjoy the mystique they once had, and have been somewhat surpassed in quality by newer runs; their value has remained relatively flat. Years ago Crowns were highly prized as being the "cream of the crop" but those collectors are indeed the ones passing from the scene today--and the younger generation behind them prefers newer models, made in Korea, that are more highly detailed/individual engine specific--and in some cases do run better.
However, the Key/Samhongsa DRGW M-64 used to go for about $350 in mint condition; now that might be more nearly $450 or even more--but prices on those and similar models have not plummeted--they have remained fairly steady for many years.
I have actually bought and sold a lot of brass--at least more than 100 pieces. I do in fact know a little bit about the values of the models at this point. Though I personally lost some money on brass by excessive trading and/or buying the occasional defective locomotive (missing critical hidden pieces and thus unable to run correctly), I know for a fact that most people who bought brass have made a profit on their models.
I have been directly involved in the liquidation of brass collections that belonged to others--and the models held their value quite nicely--even after having been played with, even being "used".
I also mean no disrespect to the plastic or hybrid owners out there; right now I do not own any brass at all--so I'm in your crowd.
The asking price on some hybrids is now double what it was when they were new. (MTH UP 4-12-2 currently on Ebay). That alone will maintain brass values.
Respectfully submitted--
John
Also--brass diesels in particular have gone through a consistent price cycle.
The price is high when Overland releases them and everyone has to have one because it's the only way to get the latest/greatest version.
Then a year or two later, either when the real railroad buys a new model or a plastic manufacturer comes out with the same thing, the price on the Overland diesel plummets, and dealers can't get rid of the remaining inventory without some kind of discount.
The price then remains rather low from year 2 through perhaps year 5 after release.
By then they are all gone from the marketplace--and then, because nobody can find one if they want one, the price recovers and starts to head back up again, surpassing the new MSRP.
This curve has been going on this way for a good 20 years in the brass market. It has happened time and time again with countless models--partly because the diesel fans are obsessed with having the absolute latest/greatest model.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Steam forever!
John born 1968
The best indicator of plastic/hybrid model train sales and pricing is currently www.modeltrainstuff.com
Their inventory is real time--if I buy it, the quantity available immediately decreases by one.
For anyone who thinks steam isn't popular--I respectfully suggest they check the website inventory. A whole bunch of the best steamers are completely sold out at this time (including many Bachmanns), while diesels, particularly F units, and the latest/greatest thing, are in reasonably good supply. When they had the Bachmann 2-6-0's and 2-8-8-4's (lettered versions), they both actually went quickly and in fairly significant numbers.
John
P.S. A few years back, I was the 23-year old with a brass steam collection--then in my early 30's I sold them and put the money into our house. Now at 43, I'd like to get back into the brass, but with kids, mortgage, cars...it will have to wait. I enjoy the plastic stuff I do have at the present time, and am contemplating some brass East Wind passenger cars.
THANK GOD for things like "layaway"
i think doneldon hit it on the head. we buy what we know. i know that what i buy now are either locomotives i saw in real life, or railroads (like the new haven) i wish i'd have seen. locomotives have to be seen in real life to be fully appreciated. how do you explain the earth shaking rumble of sd45s under heavy load? that 20 cylinder engine had a very unique sound, and now the ones that survive for the most part have had their original engine replaced with the same 16 cylinder one used in the sd40-2. another experience gone. and to the younger railfans, just another emd, albeit one with funny looking radiators. how do you explain the sound of 5 gp9s trying to get a coal train up a 3% grade? fortunately, we have them in model form.....
i don't think most of us necessarily go for the "newest and best" diesels. i personally think many of them are overrated.
for example, broadway limited is considered top of the line and yet, my emd sw7 is probably the worst pulling engine i have, next to thomas. the bachmann s4 i just bought is much better suited to my needs. the same goes for brass, i am not going to pay a couple hundred for a brass sd45 when i can get bachmann's for well under $100.
I still want a PRR S2 but I have been informed thoroughly that that is not going to happen.
When we compare brass locomotives to plastic ones, whether they be Diesel or steam, we are talking about two very different things, even if they appear very much alike when painted.
The economics of producing them are pretty much opposite, and that determines the availability and price.
Producing brass locomotives is labor-intensive but not capital-intensive. This is why brass locomotives have traditionally been produced in cheap labor countries with a lack of sophisticated manufacturing capability, like Japan used to be. The early brass locos, at least, were virtually hand-made. Certain parts that were common between different models could be mass-produced (turnings, lost-wax castings), but other major parts (boilers, frames, cabs, running gear) had to be hand fabricated and assembled (hand-soldered).
Well, what can you produce with a production capability like this?
First, it is almost as easy to produce dozens of models of different prototypes as it is to knock out a series of the same thing. Your production workers are skilled craftsmen who know how to read blueprints, and understand how the prototype locomotives look and operate. With a supply of common parts and basic metal shop tools (lathe, press brake, drill press, measuring devices and soldering tools) these guys could build models of virtually any steam locomotive, in small quantities.
Painting these required a considerable additional investment in equipment, materials, research, space and skills. So these models were generally sold unpainted.
If you look at the model railroad magazines of the 1960's you will find a huge number of brass locomotive models. All produced in limited runs. If there was a big demand for one particular model, generally another manufacturer would step in to fill the demand. It is mind-boggling to look at these ads, just to consider the variety available.
Then consider the plastic locos. These require little or none of the fabrication required of brass models. They do not require craftsmen who can read blueprints or understand the prototype to assemble. These require something not used in brass loco production: injection molds for plastic casting. These molds are extremely expensive, requiring huge numbers of models to be produced to amortize them. So, the companies producing these cannot offer an extensive line of unique models. Consider also that the more unique the prototype, the more limited its market appeal is apt to be.
How can a company produce plastic steam locomotives that will have wide market appeal? You can offer models of particularly popular locomotives, like Daylight 4-8-4's and K4 4-6-2's that "everybody" loves.
And you can choose prototypes that were used by more than one railroad, like USRA types and locomotives based on them. Produce models based on common frames and boilers with prototype-specific cabs and details.
If one is producing popular Diesel locomotives, the solution is simple. If there are significant differences within the same prototype, either offer add-on options (steam generator details, dynamic brake details),
or leave it up to the buyer to do their own modifications. You can use your expensive injection-molding equipment to produce a flood of identical models. Assemble them with workers with basic skills, and use the money saved to offer them in a variety of paint schemes. Your major competitors will be doing the same thing, so try to make your models of better quality to maintain your market share
I think a lot of the brass models wound up as shelf models, displayed but not run. If the mechanical performance was not as good as the appearance, not a big deal to a lot of your customers.
I think almost all of the plastic models wind up being used on actual model railroads. Why pay extra for DCC and sound if your model is to spend its life in a display case? So if your models perform poorly, no matter how good they look, you have a big problem.
This is why it is difficult to compare values of brass and plastic locos. They are really different animals, aimed at different markets.
Les
Les, most of the brass I buy was made in the late 70's early 80's when performance was either really good or need some tinkering, my engines will never ever be shelf queens, they have to earn their ownership on the high rail hauling my freight or passenger cars around. Even if a piece was available in the 60's and the chassis wouldn't run, well simple, replace it! Loads of good chassis out there to use in plastic or diecast engines
Ryeguy,
Good for you for actually using your brass locos! But I don't think your situation is typical. I've known people to buy brass locos and not even paint them, much less run them.
I don't have a personal connection with steam. I was born in 1949, but my hometown railroads converted to Diesels early. My steam memories consist of hearing switch engines work in a nearby rail yard, my father showing me a hot 0-6-0 while its crew was at beans, and seeing occasional dead locos being hauled in freight trains (presumably to scrap). Nothing very endearing there.
Were it not for companies like Bachmann and Rivarossi, I probably wouldn't own any steam locomotive models. They predate the area of my model railroad with only a very narrow overlap. The steam locomotive models I own are made by Bachmann and Life-Like, and exist primarily as curiosities. Even so, they cost more than my average Diesel unit. I would not spend the price of brass locomotives to own them.
Will the price of brass locomotives go down? Yes, I think so. But only because the demand will fall off as the entire hobby collapses. Some will become "antique collectibles" and hold their prices. Most will sadly become garage sale junk or toys for the great-grandchildren of their present owners. I have seen this happen already with the great tinplate trains of the 1940's and 50's. You cannot have a hobby that has grown dependent on mass quantities of ready-to-run models without mass numbers of hobbyists.
This will not happen all at once. I think as the availability of ready-to-run models ends, the hobby will regress to the type of hobby it was in the 1950's, then the 1940's. Then, when both ourselves and our children are gone, so will the hobby.
Our hobby withstood the greatest challenge to its existence, the Great Depression, because it was a craftsmen hobby that depended on individuals working with basic tools and materials at home to build their railroads. It is no longer that kind of hobby. Without public exposure to actual railroad experiences, I cannot see another generation taking up this hobby. I have a 30+ year collection of N-scale equipment that sees regular use on my basement model railroad. At today's prices, I could never afford to replace all that, even if all the equipment were still available (and it isn't).
So, when Bachmann or anyone else announces new locomotives, pay attention!
Les
Actually within this hobby it seems most people accumulate equipment and never actually operate it beyond a test run.
I've waited upon many of "the accumulators"--whether plastic or brass, or both.
John
Regarding tool and die costs for plastic injection molded models--yes, I'm very well aware--but what do you do when virtually all the PRR stuff has been done?
BLI is approaching the end of PRR steam power that will have significant national sales appeal. Perhaps they're not there quite yet--the H-10 is coming, and the L-1 mikado would be a wonderful, common-sense choice--but most of the larger PRR steam classes have been done by somebody.
The USRA steam, for the most part, has been done--though the manufacturers continue to milk that cow.
So I think it is time for some of the "other guys" engines to get done. Folks have been clamoring for the Northern Pacific 4-8-4, but for whatever reason, it hasn't happened in plastic yet.
Wouldn't it be neat if Bachmann could take the 2-8-0 and upgrade it into perhaps a few more detailed/road specific versions and still crank them out in some quantity? Would the market go for such an animal the way it seems to gobble up USRA steamers and PRR or UP steam power?
If you can wait long enough, a new crop of model railroaders just might appear to create a demand for models of things previously offered.
If I may use Rivarossi as an example: This company was started by an Italian Count who sold his family estate to raise the money needed to produce a line of injection-molded plastic models of locomotives and other equipment. He had an eye for what would be popular sellers in the US market: Diesels that could be produced cheaply and would fill gaps in the market left open by his competitors. Thus, we got FM cab units, but also E-units in both cabs and boosters. GP-18's and other Diesels not produced by the competition.
But, we also got some very good-looking steam locomotives, chosen apparently by what he liked. We got heavy and light USRA Pacifics, Mikados, IHB 0-8-0's, N&W Y6b's, UP 4-8-8-4's, SP cab-forwards, Nickle Plate 2-8-4's, USRA 0-6-0's, "Casey Jones" 4-6-0's, early 4-4-0's, etc. Rather than driven by commonality, it looked like he just produced what he liked and thought would sell. He chose well, and these things did sell well. Their die work was great, even by today's standards. Their main problem was that they were underpowered.
Even the big locos used the same little motors that the smaller ones used.
Come forward 40 years, and Bachmann is now producing plastic steam locos aimed at the same market. I do not have any experience with Bachmann HO steam from either era. I do have Bachmann N-scale steam (4-4-0, 2-6-2, 4-8-4) and Life-Like steam (4-6-2). One of each. In an earlier period (the 1980's), I also had one of the same types of Bachmann steam locos that I have today. The original three have gone by the wayside. The original 4-4-0 could hardly pull itself, the 2-6-2 broke the notorious "white gear", and the 4-8-4 would experience unexplainable spells of simply not running at all. All the current-era Bachmann replacements work much better, so I have to say there is some improvement for sure.
Good performing equipment is essential to keeping the hobby alive. If a kid receives a train set that barely or doesn't work, his reaction will be "all model trains are trash" and the train set winds up either in the next garage sale, or in the trash can. And that is the last time he will try model railroading. So, the manufacturers literally owe the existence of the hobby to providing quality products.
Generally speaking, I will not buy anything pre-assembled and "ready to use" if it is available in a kit I get to build. Building the model is an important part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me. Same for building the model railroad. Why pay a hefty fee for someone to design and build a model railroad for you? That is supposed to be part of the fun.
Les
Quote from: Desertdweller on June 03, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
Ryeguy,
I've known people to buy brass locos and not even paint them, much less run them.
*gasp!* those poor babies :o
I treat my engines as if they were pets kind of, if one doesn't use the ash pit "BAD SMOKEY!" haha
there was a point where I thought I'd never see another Key Imports M-75 to add to the roster and that all the others were taken and held on to because even though they were cheaper, they still represented the engine which was built a few times in brass, by Glacier park, Tenshodo, Westside/Key and I even think Berlyn Loco works did a small run of them but all in all they're pretty popular three cylinder engines
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on June 02, 2012, 09:25:21 PM
Their inventory is real time--if I buy it, the quantity available immediately decreases by one.
Yellow-
My point exactly. The inventory does decrease by one when you make a purchase. The thing is, the demand decreases by one, too. So taking one out of the availability column does
not result in an increase in the demand column and prices don't change. Once we Baby Boomers start liquidating our collections, however, the supply column will grow without a concomitant increase in the demand column so prices
will decline.
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on June 02, 2012, 09:25:21 PM
For anyone who thinks steam isn't popular--I respectfully suggest they check the website inventory. A whole bunch of the best steamers are completely sold out at this time (including many Bachmanns), while diesels, particularly F units, and the latest/greatest thing, are in reasonably good supply.
This only reflects greater demand for steam engines than diesels
if, and it's a BIG
if, the production runs of steamers and diesels are equal. And we know very well that is
not the case. Why are the production runs different sizes, specifically more diesels than steamers? Supply and demand. The manufacturers know that younger modelers, by and large, have a relatively greater interest in diesel compared to steam. They also know that younger modelers have children, college loans and house payments so they may have to save up for a while in order to accumulate the cash for a purchase. So. Greater overall demand and many delayed purchases equals large production runs.
This isn't true for steam engines. Older modelers like me and my Baby Boomer cohort are largely finished with child rearing and college expenses; many of us no longer have house payments, either. Consequently, we can purchase what we want when it is released because we have the money at hand. We have little need for the layaway which rye guy likes so much. But that means that most of us won't be saving for a delayed purchase. A model steam locomotive which doesn't sell in the first three to six months is likely to sit in its manufacturer's warehouse for a very long time. And that spells financial trouble. So ... manufacturers make fewer steam models and plan to sell out comparatively quickly, with few or no residual sales. Two similar products with two entirely different business plans.
There is another issue which increasingly affects model railroad prices but no one seems to want to talk about it. Even I haven't mentioned it and I'm rather like the t**d in the punchbowl on this subject.
Overall, there are fewer model railroaders every year. That's because there are many more older modelers like me leaving the hobby than there are younger persons coming into the hobby. My Baby Boomer cohort has begun to reach our 70s (not me -- I'm only 69 -- until January). We are leaving the hobby at increasing rates from year to year due to death or infirmity. Maybe we can't get up and down the basement steps anymore. Maybe we have dementia. Maybe we need assisted living (which doesn't include assistance with model railroads!). Or maybe we're dead. World War veterans are dying at a rate of more than 1000 each day; Boomers are only a few years younger on average. And younger people simply aren't coming into the hobby in large numbers. There will be less and less demand as time goes by, and therefore lower prices across the board.
That's great if you're a young model rail, but there's a down side, too. I predict that the next 10, 20 or 30 years will see fewer and fewer new products. Why? We folks with the ready cash will be in short supply and we aren't being replaced by similar numbers of new model rails. Manufacturers won't be able to justify rushing new products to market until
after a demand develops. No more
making demand as well as models.
-- D
The decline in interest in the hobby is apparent, but that's not to say something can't be done about it. At one point I've had donations and bought layouts at low prices from people who just weren't into the hobby anymore and one part of me is like I'm glad I'm able to save money by collectiong more track/equipment/buildings/etc for my projects, and the the other part of me is saddened because another model railroader soul has bit the dust
But that's not to say it can't be helped, there are ways to continually support the hobby. Some of these things I recieve I use or sell to work on my annual postwar O gauged 3 rail train display for the local park and I do it out of the goodness of my heart to my community but on the flip side I'm showing people around me there's more to life than the video games and the television, in some ways I believe my actions lead to inspire newcomers to the hobby as well as promote skills involved. At my job at home depot a lot of the staff and customers wonder how I know so much with hardware, lumber, builing materials and electrical all at once, and I simply reply Model Railroading
Model Railroading in its process can teach you a lot of key life skills, like geometry, geography, electrical, physics, woodwork, use of a variety of tools, history and so on. It's hard to name another hobby with that amount of skill set, and granted not everyone can do everything, I Excel in geometry, but give me an advanced algebra question and I can't answer it for the life of me. Sitting through that class was like watching late night crap product commercials that try to sell you something you don't really neeed. Model Railroading shouldn't be rocket science, yet some people can't think as complex to build a varney steam locomotive kit or handlay track, and that's why our companies have evolved to sell ez-track snap track and ready to run locomotives to broaden the people it can sell to.
Remember at one point brass was almost the only way you actually buy ready to run besides a few companies that would actually prebuild the models for a price increase
Doneldon--
First, it seems you may be over-thinking in your post above.
The inventory of modeltrainstuff does not necessarily reflect real demand--only their supply--what they ordered, and nothing more.
I guarantee you right now that if they had more Tangent WM or Lehigh Valley Bethlehem Steel gondolas, they would be gone instantly--within a day, as would some Alco PA's that just sold like hotcakes. When one watches their inventory on a daily basis, one can see when they go back and order extra quantities of some items.
There are many times I've had to go elsewhere and spend more money to buy things that they were sold out of--because they are the first dealer to sell out of inventory due to their very favorable price structure.
Second--you are very likely mistaken if you think the diesels are being done in large runs--especially relative to Bachmann's rather large production runs of steam power.
The manufacturers do not sit around and say "this is a diesel so we'll make twice as many".
Instead they say "how many do we need to sell for this to be a viable project". Then they hit that quantity, or exceed it if they can, but though many people do buy diesels, it is a bit overly simplistic to assume they vastly outsell steam, if you would make a comparison based upon dollars spent and not merely units.
BLI manages to keep producing runs of steam power that get gobbled up, but the diesels may languish on the shelves, depending on the model.
John
Obviously, plastic Diesels are produced in numbers exceeding plastic steamers. Is this just because they are cheaper, so they can be included in train sets and sold to a less affluent market? I don't think that is the entire answer.
Because they are less expensive, it is easier for modelers to build up fleets of the same model type. This not only helps build a more believable roster, it also allows the Diesels to be used in the way the big railroads use them: in multiple units on one train. In the real world, one seldom sees a train with only one unit. Short local freights, switch jobs, short passenger trains, maybe work trains. All others, even on short lines, will use more than one unit. By the time a modeler uses two or three powered units on a train, he is looking at a cost comparable to using steam.
One of the great sights of model railroading, for me, is the look of a matched set of units on a train. Particularly cab-and booster units.
In the same line of thought, I've noticed a decrease in the popularity of dummy Diesel units lately. A lot of people these days would rather have all their Diesels powered, even B units. I think this is a good thing. On my own railroad, one powered unit is sufficient for a passenger train of seven cars. If I add a dummy unit, I've reduced the number of cars I can handle. But if I run eight or nine car passenger trains, which I regularly do, I'll add a second powered unit for the same reason a big railroad would.
Les
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on June 04, 2012, 01:21:09 PM
it is a bit overly simplistic to assume they vastly outsell steam, if you would make a comparison based upon dollars spent and not merely units.
John-
It is number built,
not dollars spent which defines the size of a production run and the available inventory. I suspect that dollars spent on steam and diesel are not terribly different but that is because, on average, steam costs more than diesel. So we can't compare dollars spent to ascertain how many units were made.
-- D
You contended that diesels are built in far superior numbers to steam or rather that the market greatly prefers diesel power. I disagreed.
What I said is if one looks at the total dollars spent upon motive power, it would be more nearly even (because steam generally costs more per unit sold). If the dollars spent are more nearly even, then it is not necessarily accurate to say that people generally prefer diesel over steam. There are some who buy diesels only because they are cheaper, or because steam has the reputation of being more hassle to operate.
Dummy units are no longer made because most of the cost is now in the assembly, detailing and finishing of the shell, and packaging for dummy units might be slightly different. It is therefore easier for the manufacturer to just make everything powered--that way people can run longer trains--which most want to do anyway (maximize the length of train on their own layout).
Lots of steam engines get sold because people "just want to have one (big boy, or GS-4, or fill in the blank)". Even though they may have primarily diesel power on their layout, a significant portion of buyers will always want to have that one big or special "excursion" engine or big boy or whatever feeds their ego. I don't think steam will go away entirely. That's the real point.
As David P. Morgan and others wrote, the diesel is not nearly as satisfying to the senses as steam, which seems to be a living breathing beast.
John
P.S. Bachmann is the one manufacturer who still seems to make plenty of stock for store (or at least distributor) shelves, rather than just to cover pre-orders plus a small percentage. If one wants a particular Bachmann engine, one can usually find a distributor that has or can get one. That is not necessarily the case with the other guys.
John-
This interchange is sounding more and more argumentative and I'm concerned that you are putting words in my mouth. (E.g., where did I ever state "that diesels are built in far superior numbers to steam or rather that the market greatly prefers diesel power?") Consequently, I am ending my participation in our conversation before things get out of hand. You are welcome to the last word.
I don't think your belief is amenable to a factual discussion and I'm not sure that responding to your impassioned position will lead to anything other than an escalating conflict to which the other participants on this Board don't need to be exposed. For reasons of your own you have chosen a frankly indefensible position and I don't care to be a foil for your polemics. I'm quite confident that the large majority of folks on this Board have their own data-centered opinions and an ongoing debate on this subject, especially an emotional one which could easily become acrimonious, will interest or inform them in any productive way.
-- D
Remember debates happen to enlighten us, not tear us apart or create much of argument. Both sides would have the privilege of learning different viewpoints and may learn something new in the process.
This only becomes an argument when you make things a little more personal and even so far as to start name calling, but here is a control, I don't believe it is turning into an argument.
Although all I can say is this: only the guys in bachmann could know their real business practices as well as Kader though they may never reveal their secret recipe for success.
Now to rerail the thread, its only a month or so before bachmann announces its big new thing to the world, now what we haven't seen much of in plastic/diecast is medium sized articulateds and harriman style engines. I almost wonder if there's a way to make say a mikado that can be used to make different roads like a union pacific MK or a D&SL mikado or DRGW or Southern pacific . Something generic where you can change the steam domes, cabs, sand domes, pilots, etc to fit your railroad
Ryeguy,
I like your suggestion about producing models with interchangeable details. This actually was done by the big steam loco builders. A company like Baldwin or Alco would produce a boiler/running gear combination that would be suitable for several railroads, then "customize" the product with options to fit the customers' preferences.
A company like Bachmann could use this same principle to produce steam locomotives with wider market appeal.
I don't think there is a lot of dispute over Diesel popularity vs. steam locomotives. Most of us have no experience with seeing steam locomotives in regular railroad service. If our model railroads are to be a re-creation of what we remember and enjoy, then Diesels would naturally have wider appeal.
Steam locomotives have such magnetism that even brief exposure to them can create a desire for them. This is great, and can explain why modelers with Diesel-powered railroads still like to have a few steamers around. As you well know, a steam-based model railroad requires quite different facilities than a Diesel-based one if it is to represent those operations realistically.
My own exposure to mainline steam is limited to watching fan specials roll past. I live on the UP main line in Nebraska, and see the 844 or 3985 come through a couple times a year. These are a curiosity to me. My early railroad memories are built around F-units (including FT's), early Geeps, and early ALCO and Baldwin Diesels. I started my railroad career amid FM switchers, ALCO RS units, F-7 and F-9's, and E-units. This, to me, is the railroading I connect with. I have operated virtually all SD and GP models, and most GE units from B23-7's on up, but my heart belongs to the 1960's, and that is what I model.
Les
Rye-
I, too, like the interchangable details concept as a way to spread tooling/development costs over a broader product selection. The automobile industry has been doing it for years.
I also think this explains the success of USRA models; virtually every railroad (NB: I wrote "virtually" so don't jump on me) had USRA locos or what were essentially USRA designs after the temporary semi-nationalization of the railroads ceased soon sfter the end of the war.
-- D
Exactly, road specific details on say a generic harriman boiler, find dimensions of certain prototypes, say a DRGW K-59, a UP MK-7, D&SL 2-8-2, and SP 2-8-2 and figure out if just the very basics from driving wheel size up to the boiler diameter and firebox size and create some completely different prototypes based on those criterias, alone with just some additional tooling for the individual different detailing. And you've got yourself a golden goose egg. I hear time and time again for harriman mikes or steam, and now I'm joining the call because I model a western railroad and USRA engines don't appeal to me because in my view they're everywhere and even the roads that inspire my freelance work rarely had them.
Even if they put this engine in the standard line because a lack of exact prototypical dimensions, say the firebox is 2 inches scale off from the K-59, it would still be a hot selling engine, and the rivet counters can just make those superficial adjustments
Which is exactly the reason why I posted above regarding this:
Take the Bachmann 2-8-0, which already exists, and create some more road specific versions.
For example:
Perhaps move the bell, headlight, numberboards as needed--perhaps do a couple cabs and tenders--perhaps do a couple versions of the front steps/minor running board changes. They will sell and Bachmann doesn't even need to tool a whole new engine!
My understanding based upon the research of others (found elsewhere online) is that the 2-8-0 appears to be most nearly of GM&O/IC lineage, with some modifications--so why not offer the correct "as built" or "as modernized" version (I don't care which--the one that appears to be closest to the model) with the correct paint and lettering for that road--and add some additional roads as well?
Perhaps offer the New England railroad(s) style arched cab side windows, or go a step farther and vary the domes--remove the domes from the main boiler (if not so already) so they can be varied if desired.
Some incremental improvements would pacify the rivet counters and possibly increase sales (though it is apparently already a pretty good seller).
Of course I'd prefer a new from the ground up western style generic 2-8-2--but in terms of tool and die costs, it might be more cost effective to make incremental improvements to existing offerings. If I were Bachmann, I would seek to maximize the return on the existing tooling as much as possible, so I'd offer a few variations based upon existing models.
This assumes the existing tooling is still deemed as not being "too dated" ie not up to today's standards etc.
John
I agree with 2-8-8-4 on the 2-8-0 thing. To make an ALCO 2-8-0, for example, all Bachmann need to do is make a body shell for just the main engine based off of an ALCO 2-8-0 like a Lake Superior & Ishpaming 2-8-0 with a running board on the drivers side identical to the one on the firemans side of the engine so it has the 2 air compressor sets. One on each side. Or to make a Duluth, Mesabi & Iron Range K class 2-8-0 all that it needs is a new body shell with flat running boards on both sides and a tender that's about half the length of the current 2-8-0 tender with the correct style bunker and a reversing light.
Or maybe a DRGW C-41 or C-48
A few tweaks would turn the 2-8-0 into a passably Ma & Pa #41, and complement Bachmann's other Ma & Pa engines. A few more fittings would produce #42 and #43.
Bill.
It is far better to tweak an existing boiler than to do a brand new boiler.
From having worked for a model train manufacturer, it generally costs a lot more to tool a brand new boiler than it does to tool different domes and other small details that can be varied.
Though I too would love a DRGW C-48--it's one very nice, balanced appearing loco. Some exposed piping, but not too much of anything...not a rolling pipefitter's nightmare like some other engines. (Nothing directed at Ma & Pa engines...I'm just not familiar with them like I am some other railroads. I would not be opposed to a Ma & Pa engine).
John
Quote from: MilwaukeeRoadfan261 on May 30, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
I am hoping for a specific restored Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 numbered 261. If it would be a standard line engine, oh well, make it a sound value on board engine with the heavy steam sounds and the Frisco 1522 whistle. If it would be a spectrum line steamer, please Bachmann, make it with a sound module that has sounds recorded from the real thing since it is still around and hopefully done with its overhaul soon. For western engines, I am hoping for something like the Grand Canyon Railway 4960 and Grand Canyon Railway 28... or the Sierra Railway #3.
Hello Milw 261,
I have a nice S2a, #207, closed vestibule, 4-8-4, just waiting for you. :)
Quote from: Petey on June 14, 2012, 11:47:50 AM
Hello Milw 261,
I have a nice S2a, #207, closed vestibule, 4-8-4, just waiting for you. :)
Petey-
I see you are new and unaware that this board is not for buying and selling. Sticking to the policies (clearly explained near the beginning of every section of the board) will make this a better experience for all of us.
-- D
Unless he is offering it to him for free!! ;D
Jerry
Quote from: Jerrys HO on June 14, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
Unless he is offering it to him for free!! ;D
Jerry
Jerry-
Well, that's a very good point. However, how much do you want to bet he's not? Oops! I
don't know for sure but I'll bet (Oops
2, I'm doing it again) betting isn't permitted, either.
-- D