To put a 30 deg crossing between 2 Maj lines how much space do I need? and to power switches what turn out do I need HO Scale
I think maybe you should rewrite the question.(try modify button) It is kinda unclear. 18 people have read but not responded. ???
I am not an HO guy just reading here. But I think clearer details are necessary here. Are you asking about 2-4 turnouts used together to change tracks?(I think so) And the powering of these switchtracks(turnouts,Wye,Y,switchtrack all similar terms/items) So you will be able to CROSSOVER(VERB) from major line-a to major line-b?(mainline is more common). The radius(middle to edge) or diameter(widest edge to edge) of your turnouts curve will also be needed to figure the measurement. 30 degree on the turns tells us only that there are 12 pieces in a perfect circle(12x30=360degree), at 45degree=8 to a circle) It does not tell us how big the circle is.
Crossovers(as noun) are generally where two tracks cross each other in an X, but trains cant "turn" onto the other track,
they are most common in 45 and 30 degree form.
Thanks for the replay; I have a ho layout on a 4x 8 board and two main lines on the layout but I want to put in a cross over where i now have only one turn out what do I need to do to make this possible Thanks for a answer
mallonee
Try downloading the free version of anyrail. It let's you play with 50 pieces for free and you can swap around pieces to fit your needs. You may like it so much as to buy the full version like me and a few others.
Jerry
Anyrail is your key to your dreams! =) Seriously, download the free version and give it a go..you won't be sorry at all!
Bal
mal-
You have three options. The first, and easiest, is to purchase a right and a left prefab Bachmann crossover track. The second is to purchase four numbered turnouts (not switches which are not designated by number), two right and two left. You can then put these wherever on your layout you want them. The last alternative is to purchase the same four turnouts as with option two, but with a crossing as well. This configuration places both directions of crossover at the same point, unlike the first two. The size (degrees) of the crossing in the middle will be dictated by the rest of your trackage, for example, the distance between the parallel tracks with the double crossover. It's pretty unlikely that you can pull off a double crossover on a 4'x8' layout unless your curves are exceedingly tight. IMHO, you'd be much better separating your crossovers and using broader curves than trying to do a double crossover. You'll end up with comparative tight curves even with separated crossovers.
-- D
Doc,
Would Mal likely need to use a curve with a radius of less than 18" for his inside loop if he were to try to fit the double crossover on a 4 x 8 space?
-jb
mal-
If you use the Shinohara double crossover suggested by Hunt (a fine
product) don't put it near a curve. That will help you avoid clearance
problems and potential ess curves.
-- D
Dear All,
Some of these pics from Terry Toenges have a 30 degree crossing in use:
http://www.sarget.com/atempstuff
Toss 'em into AnyRail and see what happens.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
that shinohara looks like a good bet, or look at Bachmanns #6 crossovers # 44576 & 44575 (one left, one right)
Measurements on length of, and distance between the tracks, are a mystery to me. Any one got these and a ruler?
My apologies: "Switch-tracks" could be a 3 generation slang term my family has always used to describe turnout groupings which were not a yard ladder. I never really realised it was not a common term. And the term "crossover" also seems to differ depending on who is making the track. A Lionel crossover is an X, no turn out ability. While rail terms are pretty consistant now, in the past there were differences in terminology on the various lines. My "family slang", IF it was once considered an accurate term,, I think would have been from the Pierre Marquette, or Mich. Upper Peninsula logging lines circa. early 1900s. Cant say for sure its not just plain wrong, only know I learned the term in the late 60s, while killing Laundromat time, watching the SS Chief Wawatum getting loaded with railcars to cross the straights of Mackinac. (still pronounced mackinaw)(I hope)
If you use a Bachmann #6 crossover, it will give you about 2.5" center-to-center spacing on parallel tracks. If you use a pair of turnouts to make your own crossover, the spacing will be slightly greater. Before I go any further, I am assuming you're using EZ-track. That being said, I can't find any turnouts that will allow you to use a 30 degree crossing to make a double crossover - at least not without some fudging a little bit. If you absolutely MUST have a double crossover, it will take two each of left and right turnouts (the non-numbered variety) plus a 60 degree crossing. That combination leaves you with a whopping 6.75" track spacing. My vote would be for left and right #6 crossovers.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/IMG_8262.jpg)
Picture credit: Full Maxx. (Thanks.)
More details here:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,12474.0.html
Note that the inner oval (18" radius) has two 3" fitter straights, one in the middle of each of the end curves (semi-circles).
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Spelling
the number 4 switches are close enough they should work with a 30 degree crossing. i've been able to use them in this situation with anyrail, which is more fussy about alignment than the real track.
that said, the only way to use an ez track 30 degree crossing in a crossover and get a reasonable track spacing is to trim its length. you should be able to chop an inch or two off each leg.
GG1-
The term "switch" is commonly used by people on the twelve-inches-to-the-foot railroads. Of course, they don't have much confounding terminology for what a switch is. And look at some more of the terms they use: "Throw the switch," "switch engine," "switcher," "switch list" and many more. And, I hope I don't need to point out that the real guys don't have any employees called turnoutmen.
mhampton-
The problem with using switches other than numbered (straight leg) turnouts is that they create an ess curve.
jeff-
Even cutting the legs on a 30o crossing won't push the tracks together very much because an inch of track off of the crossing is only a
fraction of an inch in the spacing.
-- D
Ok, can anyone tell, me if mal (OP) was to pull this off on a 4 x 8 space, would mal have to use a curve with a radius of less than 18" for his inside loop?
Thanks much,
-jb
if you eliminate the crossing, and just use the switches it should fit. especially if you use the #6 crossovers. if you use the 18r switches for your crossover, you need to push the table width out a couple inches. i don't advise going smaller than 18r under any circumstances except for trolleys.
Quote from: jbrock27 on February 12, 2013, 07:51:53 PM
Ok, can anyone tell, me if mal (OP) was to pull this off on a 4 x 8 space, would mal have to use a curve with a radius of less than 18" for his inside loop?
Thanks much,
-jb
jb-
No. It's possible to have nested loops on a 4x8 without going less than 18" radius curves.
The layout I built for my grandson has two nested loops and a third track which serves as
a yard lead and there are no curves tighter than 18" radius.
-- D
Thank you Jeff and Doc.
Jeff, I take it when you say 18R switches, you are referring to "snap switches" as opposed to #4s or up, correct? Luckily no trolleys on the layout but I would like to stick with no less than 18R bc I do have a couple of old time SD45s that run fine on my 18R track and 18R switches.
I have nested loops now, using just snap switches to accomplish that on my layout section that is 4 x 8-I was wondering about using Mal's idea and if it would work, making the crossover using the same space.
On the back of a package for an Atlas #4 turnout, instructions are given how to make one, using 4 #4s but they also instruct using a 25 degree crossover, not a 30. I wondered how much this mattered. Ideas???
Thanks again.
-jb
if you want I can try and do one up in anyrail and see how it goes for you all? Just let me know!
B
Quote from: jbrock27 on February 13, 2013, 07:20:59 AM
Thank you Jeff and Doc.
Jeff, I take it when you say 18R switches, you are referring to "snap switches" as opposed to #4s or up, correct? Luckily no trolleys on the layout but I would like to stick with no less than 18R bc I do have a couple of old time SD45s that run fine on my 18R track and 18R switches.
I have nested loops now, using just snap switches to accomplish that on my layout section that is 4 x 8-I was wondering about using Mal's idea and if it would work, making the crossover using the same space.
On the back of a package for an Atlas #4 turnout, instructions are given how to make one, using 4 #4s but they also instruct using a 25 degree crossover, not a 30. I wondered how much this mattered. Ideas???
Thanks again.
-jb
you are correct that the 18r switches are the "snap switches" from atlas, and their equivalents from others. these would also be the ones included in the layout expander packs. their geometry is very close no matter what brand you use.
the numbered switches, however, are completely different between manufacturers. so the angle of the crossing matters a great deal. for example, the atlas 4 is actually a #4.5 with a frog angle of about 12.8 degrees. thus they have 12.5 and 25 degree crossings designed to be used with their 4s. the bachmann 4 is about 14.5 degrees, give or take. so it needs about a 29 degree crossing. a 30 is close enough to work.
another difference between the two brands is that atlas has designed their switches to make crossovers and yard tracks on 2" centers. they did this by eliminating most of the track beyond the frog. with the crossings, they have trimmed the length so that only the track around the diamond remains. thus a 25 degree crossing measures about 4.5 inches in length as opposed to bachmann's 30 degree which is 9" bachmann switches are also singnficantly longer, with much more track beyond the frog.
the net effect of this is that a crossover using atlas 4s takes up 16" on 2" centers, and a scissors type double crossover takes up 20.5" on 3" centers. this is actually similar to a regular crossover using bachmann 4s which is 19.5" long on 3.25 " centers.
for the scisssors crossover using bachmann 4s and a 30 degree crossing, the length is 31" and the track centers are 7" apart.
believe it or not this is less than the same type of crossover using atlas 6s, which works out to 26" long on 3" centers.
that extra space is why i had suggested earlier trimming some track off each leg on the crossing, and possibly the switches themselves, to get the track centers down to a more reasonable distance.
Bal, if you wouldn't mind doing that, that would be awesome! Thank you.
Jeff, I knew that about the "snap switches" but did not know that about the numbered turnouts. Thank you for the information :) Is there a difference in the geometry of the Bachmann turnouts you are speaking of, between the ones they make now with roadbed and the older ones they used to make w/o the roadbed? Another question, I have only seen numbered turnouts in the "old style" made by Atlas and a few other manufacturers but don't recall seeing them made by Bachmann-did they make them in the non roadbed version?
As always, thank you for your assistance.
i don't believe bachmann ever made numbered switches before ez track. like most of the low end train set companies (ahm, tyco, lifelike) they used switches designed to replace a standard curve.
ahm and i believe model power made numbered switches. ahm even had some specialty items like a double slip switch, and a curved one with 22r and 18r.
bcahmann's ez track line is far more extensive than anything they ever produced before.
Thank you Jeff. Yes, I have seen numbered turnouts in AHM track as you mentioned.
Quote from: Doneldon on February 13, 2013, 01:00:30 AM
No. It's possible to have nested loops on a 4x8 without going less than 18" radius curves.
The layout I built for my grandson has two nested loops and a third track which serves as
a yard lead and there are no curves tighter than 18" radius.
Sounds like the layout my grandpa built for me when I was a little shaver. :)
Wish I had thought to make an exact track plan before it was disposed of years ago. :(
here ya go..two plans done real quick in Anyrail. Both use the #6 Crossovers the outside loop is 22", the second is 20" -using 22's & 18's alternating,and the inside loop is 18". So with both of these plans you could have 3 trains running, two circling and one doing yard work. =) You could put a third isolated loop in with 18's, I guess if you wanted that to be a trolly or something,but you couldn't get to the outer two tracks with it and it would have to have it's own power supply. Anywho, there ya go! Both of these layouts are on a 4x8 board. Question answered!
B.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/balrog21/Crossoverx2on4x8_zps642f20d9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/balrog21/3trainrunon4x8_zpsde742419.jpg)
I made a bigger yard with this 4x8 plan and some optional industries as well. The options are pretty wide open!
B
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/balrog21/4x8BigYardplan_zps295dc37f.jpg)
Thanks Bal!
Anytime! I LOVE me some Anyrail!
B21,
I like AnyRail, too. Looks like you're having fun.
I've yet to post a layout picture, so you're 3 steps ahead of me on the learning curve.
Good job.
I do see a few problems, though.
First, narrow track centers. See http://nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html
The charts there show that for the shortest rolling stock (class 2)
you need at least 2-3/16" spacing from 18"R to the next radius to avoid sideswiping.
Similar for the next gap up...
Next problem, "S" or "Ess" curves. Elegant looking, but....
Body mounted couplers derail, and you cannot back up truck mounted couplers through S curves.
Rule of thumb to eliminate S curves, according to John Armstrong:
"Put a straight between opposing curves that is at least as long as your longest rolling stock."
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
thanks for the heads up Joe, and you are correct, this was just an exercise to see the tightest curves that would fit with #6 crossovers for jb. Here is my layout I'm working on right now below. =)
turnouts are 4's and 5's all curves are 22 or higher and the 2 crossovers are the #6's. All EZ track except for the pieces of flex track that you can tell on the pic! The tables are 5x8's (4 of them)
However I do appreciate the caution. It's always nice to know that we trainiacs have others looking over our shoulders and helping to guide us!
B
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/balrog21/LongYardPlanFINAL.jpg)
B,
Taking a closer look, I see two S curves in upper left hand corner.
One fix would be to replace the 4 middle curves with straights.
You could replace the two short stubbed turnouts (near TT-8 and Tower-7) with curves,
or curves made from flex track. You would save the expense of 2 turnouts.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thank you for the tips Joe.
I have stayed away from using flex track bc I get concerned I would try to make the radius too tight in spots. So far, I have been using sectional "snap track".