Hello,
I have been frequenting the Bachmann site for a long time, looking at HO and 3-rail O gauge stuff for some time, so I thought I probably should join the forum here. I am glad to see that the 19th century coach and combine have been reintroduced recently, and hope to get them soon. Are there plans to re-release the four freight cars, as well (box, flat, gon, water tank)? I would love to see all of the 19th century cars released in realistic paint schemes lettered to compliment the 1860's 4-4-0s. So far, the bobber caboose is already lettered for UP and PRR, so there is a head start!
Thanks,
Aaron
GCR-
Be aware that the old time passenger and freight cars are barely a match. The clerestory roof passenger cars were only barely introduced by the time of the Civil War (1861-1865) and the freight cars were on the way out. The tank cars were obsolete by 1861. The small box cars and flats were being replaced by larger ones. (The gons are really just flats with added fences.) The open-end, clerestory roof, wooden passenger cars would continue to be current designs for a couple of decades while the prototypes for Bachmann's old time freight cars would survive in general use for only a few years after the war, basically just until they could be replaced.
Please note that this is not a criticism of any of these cars. It is just an observation.
-- D
Don is absolutely correct in his observations of available model 19th century rolling stock. GCR, if you want to remain accurate to the period, you will have a very difficult time finding correct models. For years I modeled the latter part of the 19th century and was able to procure a significant number of MDC/Roundhouse unpainted car kits (now long out of production). These were painted and decorated for numerous railroads/shippers through the use of Clover House transfers. [ Perhaps Bachmann will produce some period cars in an undecorated version as they do with some of their On30 line.] It was later research that revealed that these 36' cars were really products of the extreme end of the 19th century and [better yet] the early 20th century (my layout was 'sited' in 1885).
You have chosen a very difficult era to model...and I wish you luck. There are virtually no locomotives available (those sweet-running Bachmann 4-4-0s are representative of the early 20th century), and ditto for correct rolling stock. Sadly, the "Golden Age" of railroading is poorly represented by the manufacturers and modelers alike. You, my friend, will have to repaint and decorate your own locomotives (sadly you will only have models of the Jupiter and Inyo to work with).
Some advice from someone who has gone down that 'road': 1) be content with approximating the prototype, 2) decorate your locomotives and rolling stock youself as there were a plethora of small railroads in that era, and 3) be prepared to do a lot of research.
If I had the space for a larger layout, then I would eagerly model the late 1800s again.
Keep 'em rolling,
Ray
I'm not too picky about choice of equipment; I'll accept a broader time span than what may have actually been. I have noticed anachronisms already, namely that the bobber caboose probably didn't exist until at least the 1880s (probably later; I can't find anything on when they were first used).I already have what's left of the Bachmann Old Timer Freight set (that is, the cars but no loco) that I got secondhand many years ago, but the bright paint schemes definitely need to be replaced with duller reds, browns, grays, or blacks.
As far as ready-to-run equipment is concerned, I have noticed that Mantua's equipment is lettered to compliment the Bachmann locos. I know the coaches are too short for the prototype, but they are at least a short-term option (at the modeler's discretion).
Aaron
If you aren't "too picky" (and I'm not, either), lots of "old-timer" rolling stock by Mantua/Tyco and MDC/Roundhouse (now owned by Athearn) is still available on eBay, both used and unused, and from time to time Athearn still issues new ready-to-run passenger and freight cars under the Roundhouse label.
Still plenty of Rivarossi/AHM/IHC 19th-century locomotives out there, too, to supplement the Bachmann "Jupiter" and "No. 119," though I've seen from reliable sources that the Rivarossi-etc. 4-4-0s are oversize for HO scale. Still, late versions are sweet engines, and they look "proportional" to 36-ft. box cars and 47- to 50-ft. passenger cars. Con-Cor has also issued kit versions of the Rivarossi-etc. passenger cars (baggage, combine, and coach), and these also show up regularly on eBay. They look like the Bachmann passenger cars, except that they have interiors, and they don't come with factory-installed knuckle couplers; you have to do that yourself.
If you are looking for pre-1900 or pre-1910 rolling stock, eBay is your friend. :)
The design of those flat cars with the big wooden tanks on them may have been obsolete by 1861, but similar cars lasted in use on roads out West a lot longer. I've seen photos in George Abdill's books of similar cars in use on the Central Pacific at the end of the 1860s, and on a road in Arizona (Southern Pacific or Santa Fe subsidiary?) later than that.
I'll have more to say after an errand or two, but for now, check this site out, and the links within it, including some kit makers.
http://www.earlyrail.org/earlyrail-links.html
. . . .Well, I'm back, and happy to say I've re-found H. Minky's Pacific Coast Airline page ("air line," in railroad terminology, means "straight line," or "as the crow flies"). He is currently into On30, but before that, he had some adventures in HO standard gauge, both for the 1870s and the 1890s-early 1900s. Both of these eras are in his archive on his site below.
Main page:
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/
1870s page:
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/
1905 page:
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1905/
More to come. . .
Here is another site with a great deal of 19th century material, very specifically in Virginia in 1863.. The site's owner is also the owner of Alkem Scale Models, one of the firms linked in the original post above:
http://usmrr.blogspot.com/
And here is someone doing the W&A in the same general era, in HO, with Mantua "General" 4-4-0s, and some other things, too:
http://western-and-atlantic-rr.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41222203@N05/show/
One thing you're going to need is people, and animals, too. It's understandable that Bachmann doesn't make specialty items like this, but thankfully, there are others who do--and of course, they'll go well with the 19th century equipment Bachmann does make.
http://www.musketminiatures.com/
Here is an earlier discussion page on older model kits that used to be available, and in some cases still are. Most would have been "contemporary" for the time they were issued in the 1940s and 1950s, but some models were of period equipment, most notably cars from LaBelle and Northeastern Scale Models.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,12480.0.html
I'll also add that at one time, Central Valley Models had a slew of late 19th century cars in wood in HO scale. Those haven't been in production for decades, but like so many other things, you might turn some up on e-bay and at train shows.
Now for some comments about 19th century modeling from a fellow who admittedly doesn't do it but would be intrigued by it:
There's no denying it could be challenging. As noted, there isn't much commercially available for the earlier periods, particularly locomotives. Car selection isn't much better, and then there's all sorts of other things that are different, including certain buildings, figures, and details. A lot will probably have to be scratchbuilt, and virtually everything should be custom painted.
The overall look of things will be very different. No paved roads except some streets, no power lines, no automobiles, no electric anything outside of some experimental stuff at the very end of the century. Certain details do have to be added, such as a lot of backyard gardens and "necessary houses" (no indoor plumbing then--well, at least we won't be recreating the smell). What yards there are will look a little rough compared with today (no gas lawnmowers then).
Against these "downsides," you have certain advantages. Unless you're modeling a really busy railroad like the New York Central ca. 1890, you likely won't need as much in the way of equipment. Except for Pullmans after 1890 or so (which were as long as passenger cars of today), most of the equipment will be smaller. This particularly applies to the locomotives, and in fact, many 19th century modelers have noted that an 0-scale 4-4-0 is about as long as a 4-6-2 in HO. Big power in the 1890s would be 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s that, with some changes in appearance, would be seen as survivors on branch lines some 40 years later.
Depending on your time period, to a certain extent what equipment you do have to scratchbuild will also be simpler. Most if not all of it will lack air brake equipment, a lot of earlier cars didn't have all the hand grabs and ladders that were required later on, and although we often think of old equipment as having truss rods, this was not always the case. Against this is the lack of automatic couplers, something you can sort of ignore, or you can work out link-and-pin couplers as some modelers have done as seen in the links above.
At the same time, though, this could be a very rewarding approach. The most obvious reward is that something like this is going to be different from what everybody else does, and will stand out on that alone. It's been noted that a lot of research will likely have to be done, but that is a great hobby in itself. Finally, there's no denying the classic beauty of equipment from this period. The 4-4-0 was the queen of the railroad world in that time, and she could be lovely. . .
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=437110&nseq=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=437009&nseq=1
Late in the era, and he has to fudge a bit with locomotives, but this fellow has some really interesting work. . .
http://www.housatonicrr.com/Index.htm
This topic has been explored here before. The biggest obstacle to modeling, as noted, has been the lack of appropriate motive power. As noted above, the old Rivarossi models, like the Reno, were oversize for HO. The Mantual General is a decent candidate, though its tender drive is a minus. Same with the Bachmann models. If you are not too picky, sticking a diamond stack on an original Richmond 4-4-0 is a decent trade-off. The fundamental difference between the 1860's era 4-4-0 and the later versions is that the bioler was raised so as to set the firebox on top of the frames, instead of down beween them. More firebox area = more steaming capacity = bigger locos to haul bigger trains. A good, Spectrum-quality model of a loco like the York or the B&O's William Mason would be a great step forward.
Virtually all the rolling stock of the period was wood, which might give you a chance to hone your scratchbuilding skills.
This discussion tickled those old brain cells, and I remembered this photo and the ensuing discussion on the website, Railway Preservation News:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/14355?size=_original#caption
According to one fellow on RyPN, Chicago & North Western No. 605 looks to be a locomotive from the 1880s, and would be almost 20 years old at the time of this photo in 1899. Despite its age, it's in beautiful condition, although there are some inelegant details in the form of extra plumbing added over time.
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34337
This Milwaukee 4-4-0 also turned up in the discussion; note that it's a later locomotive (though still from the 19th century), it is also considerably larger:
http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/term/slusomhaF8.jpg
Now, who wants to have some fun modifying Bachmann's UP 119 to resemble that C&NW loco?
For real fun, who wants to do it with the N-scale version?
I wasn't going to add any more to this thread (other than what I have posted earlier); but reading subsequent posts got my 'gray cells' sparking. With all the miniaturization of technology evident today, one would think somewhere there is a very bright engineer(s) who can design a drive system - such that would fit into a correctly-sized 4-4-0. With this accomplished, the tender could be used for one of the smaller DCC decoders and speaker assembly.
So, all you 'whizkids' out there working for Ratheon, Boeing [et.al.]...get cracking! I know our military has some appropriate miniature technology that would solve the 19th century 4-4-0 dilemma.
You have your term assignment,
Ray
. . . AND - you can fit a smoke machine in a diamond stack . . .
Never mind the smoke machine, put the speaker for the sound system there! Be nice to have the sound come from where it should instead of the tender!
The real question about whether such a model, even a high-quality one, isn't "Can it be built?"but "Can it be sold?" Remember, this is probably a $250,000 or more investment for Bachmann or anyone else; even with additional parts to represent other engines (steam locomotives like this were often catalog engines), would enough sell to justify the investment, likely not only of a locomotive, but of cars to go with it?
J3A - I think you have "hit the nail on the head" by asking "...if it will sell?" Nineteenth century modeling is a very, very small segment of the hobby. As was mentioned, product start up costs can be daunting indeed...to sell how many pieces? Sadly, I think 19th century modeling will remain a catch-as-catch-can genre.
Regards,
Ray
I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.
Look at ads, logos and posters. The majority have old steam (diamond stacks, etc) in the graphics. This period represents "trains" so very much.
Unfortunately for the hard core, our hobby is moving away from build everything to ready-made. The more that's available, the bigger the market will get.
I wish someone - Bachmann, or anyone would make a top-notch early 4-4-0. Even a generic single model with most graphics, but no company markings. C'mon Mr. B. - put in the word for an early 4-4-0 spectrum series, DCC, with sound (and smoke would be awesome).
::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Pops on June 02, 2013, 01:53:31 PM
I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.
Pops-
There's a lot of truth in your statement. And I think it's a shame. Just about all of us feel constrained by space issues but we'd be able to run prototypical length trains on old time layouts because the smaller equipment would run just fine on 18-inch radius track. Even passenger trains would look good with equipment which is only 38-50 feet long. But it would eliminate the big steam so many of us enjoy, and everything modern. It would also restrict the variety of our trains as the early railroads drew from a narrow range of equipment, at least by 20th Century standards.
I have some Civil War trains but not to run; I use them as part of a display about the Civil War which I take when I teach community education classes on the war.
-- D
Thought you all might like to see another fellow who works with the 19th century. Of particular interest is that two of his locomotives are from Arbour--a Brooks 2-6-0 and a Baldwin 4-4-0. This was a line of kits that were notoriously difficult to put together. Guess who built that line's Allegheny as his first attempt at kit building, and even got it to run, and still has it?
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/PC090194.JPG
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/PC090195.JPG
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=35088
Among the smaller engines, Arbour also made a 4-4-0, two 4-6-0s (based on Sierra Railway No. 3 and Sylvania Central No. 103), and a Pennsy 0-4-0 in both tender and tank versions.
One fellow working on a 4-4-0, with more new and homemade parts than from the kit:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35088&whichpage=19
Some other photos by the guy:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74408027@N02/
Here's a review of the Sylvania Central kit; the fellow is either a liar, or exceptionally lucky in getting everything to fit, or a first-rate craftsman who wasn't intimidated by the model. The results in the photos suggest the latter. Note that you can page forward and back from this page.
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/803/52406/april-1980-page-58
Actually these Arbour models had what I considered very good potential. The smaller engines came with can motors, and once assembled ran quite decently (guess who has a 4-4-0 and both 4-6-0s), but assembly required a lot of patience and figuring things out. Real old-school craftsman models that might have been out of the days of bronze castings in the 1930s, although the metal was something that seemed similar to pewter and was rather soft.
WHOA!! A link with a history of Arbour:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/162304/2143757.aspx
The comments by the former Arbour owner bear out what I thought--potentially very good models, but with some flaws and difficult assembly. And talk about a throwback, they were based on old Winton model diework from the 1940s!
You write this stuff, and you and others tickle your brain cells, and you start thinking of things. . .
Just a little polling here. It seems there is at least a decent selection of 19th century freight and passenger cars available, especially if you're willing to work with craftsman kits in wood and resin. Decals even seem to be available, too. The big problem remains motive power. Just off the top of my head, what seems to be currently available are:
4-4-0s by Bachmann, tender drive, reportedly based on UP 119 and CP 60 (Golden Spike engines), but from looking at certain details, with a touch of V&T as well. They run surprisingly well given the age of the toolwork and the tender drives, and they are about the correct size for their prototypes. It's hard to believe how small some of these engines were until you see one in the flesh, like the William Mason in the B&O's museum.
2-6-0, 4-4-0, and 2-8-0 by Athearn/Model Die Casting/Roundhouse; good running engines, though generic models and a little sparse on detail. Used to be available as kits, but now ready-to-run, and reported to be improved in operation. Can resemble a variety of prototypes; the 2-8-0 is a virtual model of the Maryland & Pennsylvania's light 2-8-0s (which I believe were a Baldwin catalog design), and with some detail work would be right at home with Bachmann's Ma & Pa power. All of these would be locomotives from late in the 19th century, after 1890 or so.
4-4-0 and 4-6-0--Bachmann's Spectrum models of Ma & Pa locomotives and the high-boilered, somewhat generic 4-6-0. These represent prototypes built early in the 20th century and are detailed to look as they would have in the 1930s or later, but they also represent designs that would have been around in the 1890s. The main thing would be changing details to represent practices from that time, which would include changes in plumbing to represent the cleaner look of engines as built, and in the case of the 4-6-0s, removing the outside valve gear, and if you wanted to be fussy about it, changing the cylinder block to a different slide valve job that would line up better with the rocker arms of inside Stephenson gear.
That's about all that I know about in HO, other than brass engines. The availability in N scale is possibly worse, with a 4-4-0 and a 2-6-0 from Atlas (the 4-4-0 looks like a Baldwin, possibly V&T, the 2-6-0 looks like a Porter that was built as an export engine for Japan) and 2-8-0 from Athearn (looks like a big Baldwin built for the Northern Pacific in the 1890s). I don't think any of those are in current production. Then there are the N scale versions of Bachmann's 4-4-0s and the high-boilered 4-6-0. The car situation in N is even worse than that for the locomotives, as far as I know.
So, here's the question: What would be good choices for a manufacturer to look at for 19th century motive power? What scale or scales would be offered, and in what format (craftsman kit or RTR)? What prototypes would be good choices? And finally, what era? The 19th century technically goes back to 1830 or so, but for our purposes I don't think I would go prior to 1855 or thereabouts. After 1890 engines started to get large, though they were still simple and elegant compared with the flashy engines from before and the hulking drag engines that would come in the 20th century.
My nominations, HO scale:
4-4-0, with parts/modifications to fit locomotives built from 1860 to about 1885. May wish to be careful about choosing wheelbase and driver size, to pick a common mechanism that could also simulate engines from different builders, such as Baldwin, Mason, Manchester, Rogers, and so on.
4-6-0, the same.
2-6-0, the same, possibly even using the boiler and tender of the 4-4-0, which is something Baldwin did, and likely others, too.
2-8-0, from 1890 on.
4-6-0, from 1890 on.
0-6-0, from 1890 on.
Two possible "other" locomotives that would be long shots:
0-8-0--Winans Camel from the pre-Civil War era, in use into the early 1890s. An odd locomotive, a technological dead-end in many ways, but something built in surprisingly large numbers (the B&O had around 200 of them), and used on several roads.
4-8-0--This would really be a 20th century engine, and my choice of prototype would be N&W's M class. An odd type some might say, but between the N&W having something like two-thirds of all the 4-8-0s built in America, and the fact that a survivor runs on the Strasburg, make it a possible contender, even if not a 19th century engine.
Finally, some commentary on modeling this time period:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/174692.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
I found this fellow's comments from that thread to be very pertinent:
"The other reasons we are unlikely (I never give up hope) to ever see mass-produced 4-4-0s of the late 19th Century is the price/performance dilemma. Very, very few modelers are willing to pay the same price for a 4-4-0 as they will pay for a 4-8-4, yet the 4-4-0 is actually more costly to engineer and produce. An example: motor location is a no-win situation. There are modelers who will refuse to buy an engine with a tender-mounted motor, no matter how well it is done. The low cost location of the traditional firebox/cab leaves no space for a flywheel, a tail-heavy 4-4-0, and lost traction and tracking. Putting the motor in the boiler takes the space of weight required for traction, and requires some kind of reduction drive from the motor shaft to the parallel, but lower, worm shaft. Bachmann cogged belts are not an acceptable solution to all, but spur gears tend to be a noisy alternative.
"To cut all new tooling will force a retail price of at least $200 in today's market, and $300 might be more realistic. If "cute" enough, an 1880s 4-4-0 would probably sell single copies to a lot of modelers of other eras. Especially if paired with some reasonably accurate open platform passenger cars. But there aren't enough of us who would buy several to a half dozen to fill out a normal roster of the period. And at $300 per, you are in the price range of used brass. So your detail has to be equal to, and the performance better than used brass to garner the necessary sales. Not impossible requirements, but it would be a risky investment.
"Of course, if you know of suitable investors I will be happy to accept a commission from them to design and have a good 1880s 4-4-0 produced.
"My thoughts, your choices
"Fred W."
Plenty of good reading on that thread; explore and enjoy.
Wow - some nice work shown in this thread. In all my years of tinkering with HO kit engines - from an English switcher to any number of PennLine/Bowser kits - I never, ever met a person who was successful in assembling an Arbour models kit. My hat is off to anyone who actually finished an Arbour kit.
J3a-
Thank you for your comprehensive list of 19th Century motive power. It must have taken quite a while to key in, not to mention the effort needed to accumulate the information in the first place.
I do think it's necessary to separate the availability of motive power (and rolling stock, an artificial distinction I like to maintain) for different 19th Century time periods. It seems to me there are three: 1.) Early railroading days, say up to 1855 or so; 2.) the mid-19th Century, roughly 1855 to 1880; and, 3.) the late 19th Century.
There is almost nothing available for the earliest days of railroading except for a very few items like Bachmann's Pegasus and DeWitt Clinton. Pretty much everything else would have to be scratch built. There is a little more for the mid-century period, including the Civil War era. Bachmann has two serviceable sets but both (not a criticism) have the same locomotive. Different manufacturers have produced a couple of different passenger car types appropriate to the period, but not as high-quality models. The selection of freight cars is not even a real selection. The availability of both motive power and rolling stock increases substantially for the last 20-25 years of the 19th Century. There are at least half a dozen common loco wheel arrangements with examples made by several different companies, as well as legacy brass. Freight cars are adequate including some very high-quality examples from LaBelle's and Central Valley. Of course, those must be assembled which seems to be rapidly losing popularity. And passenger cars are well represented by both high-quality models from LaBelle's and bare bones budget lines in plastic. Appropriately, most of the passenger car models are wood, but it is possible to score models of the steel cars which were not much more than experimental at the fin de siecle.
Not surprisingly, this differential availability reflects what "old time" modelers model (or controls what "old time" modelers model, apropos Pops' earlier post on this thread). Although my own primary interest is the earliest days of the steam to diesel transition (late 1930s give or take) I do enjoy my Civil War period items even though I don't run them. Why is that, you might ask. Well, I like to be at least a little bit attentive to prototype when it comes to the big things and, for me and the mid-19th Century, that means link and pin couplers. Do you know how small 1:87 pins are compared to my old, fat fingers? Trust me. It just wouldn't work. And it's not very pretty, either.
I hadn't thought about this much until recently, largely due to this thread, but I do wish there were more 19th Century equipment available. I appreciate that Bachmann has tried to fill some of the vacuum. Now if someone will just make link 'n' pin couplers with delayed magnetic action I might build a small old time pike.
-- D
Except for expensive brass imports, any model locomotive I've ever seen that purports to be the Central Pacific's Jupiter is wrong in the steam dome. The Jupiter was a Schnectady engine, and in the 1850s and 1860s the Schnectady Locomotive Works used a very distinctive, smoothly curved steam dome. That's one way you can identify a Schnectady engine in old photographs.
BTW, I agree with Pops and Doneldon about the "chicken or the egg."
I can also report that I have in my rolling stock an Athearn/Model Die Casting/Roundhouse 2-8-0 and a 2-6-0, and both engines are good runners.
J.B.J.
I have the same locos, but the 4-4-0, 2-6-0 and 2-8-0. All identical in size. Great runners with a Micro Tsunami.
According to many photos I have, these locos are probably not all 1880s vintage but probably 1895 vintage and later as they all have air pumps on the left side, I have Abdill's books and many, many locos of that era had air pumps on the right side.
The locos are what I call a Plain Jane next to my Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0. Much better detail on Bachmann locos but that one is about 1913 vintage. I did put an old oil headlight on it.
The Bachmann old time 4-4-0 tender drive is really plain.
Rich
PSC is suppose to sell a CW HO loco that was used in the Lincoln funeral train but it will cost and arm, leg, first born, etc. Only 75 being made. Wait until they show up on ebay.
I believe it will come with the four truck funeral car.
Rich
Quote from: Pops on June 02, 2013, 01:53:31 PM
I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.
Look at ads, logos and posters. The majority have old steam (diamond stacks, etc) in the graphics. This period represents "trains" so very much.
Unfortunately for the hard core, our hobby is moving away from build everything to ready-made. The more that's available, the bigger the market will get.
I wish someone - Bachmann, or anyone would make a top-notch early 4-4-0. Even a generic single model with most graphics, but no company markings. C'mon Mr. B. - put in the word for an early 4-4-0 spectrum series, DCC, with sound (and smoke would be awesome).
::) ::) ::)
The technology to put decent sound in thee loco, not the tender is not available. Even the tender sound is not realistic.
Most kids want the sound blasting anyway. Even grown up kids do the same.
Forget how many times at a local train show that the promoters had to tell the kids to keep the sound to about maybe eight feet away.
We are trying to do full scale sound in say, HO for full scale ears. Maybe, for HO, we need HO scale ears.
Rich
Quote from: J3a-614 on June 02, 2013, 10:19:23 PM
Just off the top of my head, what seems to be currently available are:
4-4-0 and 4-6-0--Bachmann's Spectrum models of Ma & Pa locomotives and the high-boilered, somewhat generic 4-6-0.
Nope - no HO spectrum 4-6-0 available now - only in "tiny town" (N). I wish it was still available.
I'm sorry but I don't agree about size being a problem. Seems to be lots of 19th century stuff being released in "N" and that's GOT to be harder than HO.
:)
Quote from: richg on June 03, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
The locos are what I call a Plain Jane next to my Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0. Much better detail on Bachmann locos.
Agreed! No question about it.
(Of course, I'm sometimes reminded of what my dad used to say about automobiles: The more stuff they put on them, the more stuff can break. ...)
Quote from: richg on June 03, 2013, 02:05:03 PM
Most kids want the sound blasting anyway. Even grown up kids do the same.
;D
Quote from: richg on June 03, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
PSC is suppose to sell a CW HO loco that was used in the Lincoln funeral train but it will cost and arm, leg, first born, etc. Only 75 being made. Wait until they show up on ebay.
I believe it will come with the four truck funeral car.
Rich
Rich-
There have been a couple of the PSC Lincoon funeral trains on eBay already, at prices in the
thousands. Too rich for my blood.
-- D
I think we are missing the point here: Miniaturization is not only possible...it is here. A fellow resident of our town is an electronics engineer for the aerospace industry (read: military). I posed the question to him; first allowing him to see what a decoder was, an example of the small speakers available and my Bachmann 'Jupiter' 4-4-0. After looking at all these items (as well as a couple of motors) he said; "Hell...that's no problem" A further, limited, conversation [much of what he does is secret] he added; "We have 'stuff' in the final stages of development that make your project look huge."
I'd like to put forth more on this subject but my neighbor signed the Secrecy Act, and will not divulge anything more...nor would I ask him. Suffice it to say the technology is there [Hey Ratheon et. al., how about a little help here?]...the cost factor is another matter. The government/military has your money to 'play with'...how much are you willing to spend?
Interesting idea though,
Ray
Are the drivers on the Jupiter one single casting or a wheel center with a tire with the flange? I've never examined one up close and feel I can't really tell from photos.
J-J:
Separate pieces.
-- D
This is getting me on a bit of a roll, and got me looking up stuff on Manua's General:
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9279
Mantua history:
http://www.railstop.com/History/Mantua/MantuaHistory.asp
Can motor, DCC, sound, and an almost invisible drive shaft for this tender-drive model, plus examples of how this can represent other locomotives, even a book on the subject. Neat!
http://smallmodelrailroads.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/alan-mueller-rebuilding-the-mantua-general/
It turns out this site is generally themed for smaller model railroads, along the lines of the late Carl Arendt's site, and indeed is inspired by it and has links to it.
http://smallmodelrailroads.wordpress.com/
http://smallmodelrailroads.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/carlarendt/
Mantua/Tyco also made a 4-6-0 that was inspired by Sierra Railway's No. 3. In truth, this engine was quite oversized to represent the much smaller No. 3 (drivers are 63" vs. the 57" wheels under the prototype), but it can still stand in with modifications for a fairly large engine from the 1890s, particularly if you go for the straight stack version rather than the fake diamond she wore for years for movie work. This model came out in the early 1960s, apparently inspired by nothing less than that stalwart TV series, "Petticoat Junction:"
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/20120830101126_Mantua%20Tyco%20BO.jpg
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16390
http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/mantua-locos/id54.html
An interesting model from Mantua was a 4-8-0 based on the Sierra 4-6-0, using 50" drivers (switcher size). Although a free-lanced engine, it does come fairly close to a Southern Pacific 4-8-0 from the 1890s, and some have detailed it to represent that prototype.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/20110728115051_Tyco%20Santa%20Fe%204-8-0.JPG
Somehow this engine looks "right" to me, well proportioned to represent a very heavy drag engine from the 1890s; just need to detail and paint it properly:
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/20101028185736_old%20time%20locos%20DRGW%204-8-0.jpg
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/catfordken/20101028191304_LOCO45.jpg
SP had two classes of this prototype; the older and smaller version from the 1890s looks, at least to me, remarkably close to what Mantua made. What do you think? (from Don's Depot)
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2940.JPG
From the 1920s:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2949.JPG
From the 1930s:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2935.JPG
It's a smaller engine, but imagine my surprise at finding the New York Central & Hudson River rostered 4-8-0s:
http://www.heilwood.com/photos/NYCHR2611.jpg
While looking for SP 4-8-0s, I came across this image of a compound version built for the Boston & Albany:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=594929
A couple more photos of SP 4-8-0s:
http://spcascades.railfan.net/4-8-0.html
http://spcascades.railfan.net/tomdill/tdJUDKINSX2938westBW.jpg
Generally cool SP site for your enjoyment:
http://spcascades.railfan.net/
One of the larger and later (1898) SP 4-8-0s survives in Bakersfield, Ca.:
http://www.kcmuseum.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=gal_item_detail&item_id=57#!prettyPhoto
Some other photos, including one of a 4-8-0:
http://lariverrailroads.com/cp_sp_locos.html
Other 4-8-0 shots on SP:
http://www.brasstrains.com/images/products/116345/120829150552-2-1.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1797724
Enjoy.
Something you see but think you shouldn't be seeing--a Southern Pacific freight train, with three 4-8-0s, filmed in 1898 by Thomas Edison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKnko3mBhWE
More from Edison on the SP in 1898:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMQIBTC8mkE&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Santa Fe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ug8NEzLOOs
Dated 1902 on the UP, but looks older:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=K7Y_QF4q38U
NP, 1897:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9mCxbvzGrDY&feature=endscreen
Thanks, J3a! The content of those links is amazing, especially that one on the rebuilds of the "General."
JBJ
Still on that roll. . .
Going to real old-time stuff, again from Mantua, the famous Belle of the Eighties:
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/spiderj76/20110127142959_A-4-4-0-BellleOfTheEighties_Emerald.jpg
These early Mantua engines were a combination of die cast and sheet brass parts. I don't know if you would want to work with something quite this old, but John Allen had one on his famous Gorre & Daphetid, and he made it look pretty good. Overall, the engine looks a bit large for the 1880s, and I don't think the stack is proportioned quite right, but with some detailing, paint, and TLC such a locomotive would be right at home a little later in the 1890s.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/loopnhook/Tyco%20Belle%20of%20the%20Eighties%20Sm.jpg
Mantua also made an "8-Ball Mogul," a similar brass and die cast 2-6-0. Both this engine and the Belle were free-lanced, but they were what was available to early modelers of the 1940s:
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/vintageho/20101028212739_Mantua%208%20Ball%20Mogul.jpg
Here's one that got dressed up a bit:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285542879/in/set-72157623238233266
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286284182/in/set-72157623238233266
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285542989/in/set-72157623238233266
One other real old-timer that shows up in old issues of Model Railroader is a locomotive called the "Brass Bettsie," made (imported?) by a company called Great Western.
http://www.freerails.com/gallery/589/589_301624_170000000.jpg
http://www.freerails.com/gallery/589/589_301624_170000001.jpg
This is one that is a mystery to me; other than the name and those old photos, I don't know much about this early 2-8-0 model. Can anyone fill in some details?
Did find a little more on this machine; someone in Great Britain of all places is finding a job or two for these vintage locomotives:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/12280-brass-betsy-for-pennsylvanian-shortline/
One other model that should be mentioned is Kemtron's (now Precision Scale) Wabash 2-6-0. The prototypes were built, if I recall, late in the 1890s (like 1899), and two of them would be the last steam locomotives to operate on the Wabash due to a very flimsy bridge that wouldn't support anything heavier (abandonment of the bridge eventually solved the problem). One of that final pair survives in the railroad museum in St. Louis.
The models, available in HO and O, were sold as in their configuration in the 1950s, but one could backdate them relatively easily to their period of construction.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3559677
Looking at the photos in the link above, it looks like a backdating would be not much more than changing the headlight, a wooden cab (maybe), and simplifying the plumbing, perhaps a different pilot, and of course appropriate painting, perhaps simulating a Russian iron jacket.
This kit has not been in production for many years, but I understand all the parts are still available from PSC. Can anyone confirm this?
I once built about 2/3rd's of an HO Wabash Mogul from the old Kemtron parts. I actually wanted a 4-4-0 so I mated the superstructure to a Varney "Casey Jones" mechanism where I had cut off the frame ahead of the middle driver and made a new frame extension to support the cylinder block and pilot. I once had a picutre of it (this was 40+ years ago) and if I find it I'll post it.
Lucky me! I just scored several pieces of Civil War period rolling stock and a Boker 2-4-0, all in great
condition, at the NMRA Rocky Mountain Division meeting in Albuquerque. Cheap, too. Now I have evrything I
need for my exhibit of Civil War trains.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on June 07, 2013, 11:18:05 PM
Lucky me! I just scored several pieces of Civil War period rolling stock and a Boker 2-4-0, all in great
condition, at the NMRA Rocky Mountain Division meeting in Albuquerque. Cheap, too. Now I have evrything I
need for my exhibit of Civil War trains.
-- D
Yee haw! Congratulations! Good for you! ;D
BTW, have you noticed that there is a gentleman on eBay who has been selling Pocher/Rivarossi/AHM old-time passenger equipment that he has modified to have "Monitor" roofs--that is, the clerestory does not extend to the end of the car/over the platforms? They always sell for ... a lot. :(
J-J:
Yes, I have, and I've purchased a couple of items from him. His work is clean and carefully done. The
clerestory roof cars I purchased look like the roofs ccame that way from the factory. He emailed me to say
he will do commission work if someone needs a particular item.
-- D
I'm needing some 19th Century equipment, mostly for the Ma & Pa. Thats pretty much all they used. They used the open platform coaches up to the end. I have a picture of a truss boxcar with Ma & Pa 81(or 82) in front of it with a B&O box Car fro the 1940s. I'm in need mostly of a gondola and those are very hard to come by.
Not to mention i plan on having a little Museum on my layout that would require some. I think i have enough tho but some extra wouldn't hurt to keep switchin it around.
Quote from: Doneldon on June 10, 2013, 08:52:00 PM
J-J:
Yes, I have, and I've purchased a couple of items from him. His work is clean and carefully done. The
clerestory roof cars I purchased look like the roofs ccame that way from the factory. He emailed me to say
he will do commission work if someone needs a particular item.
-- D
I'm glad to know that, because, as a matter of fact, I just won an auction for a baggage car and coach from him. Both cars have rounded ends to the clerestories, which really look sharp in the photos he posted with the listing and will match the clerestory on the Lincoln car. He does some interesting things with Rivarossi/AHM 4-4-0s, too.
Interesting, too, that he indicated he was willing to do commission work, as I had been thinking of contacting him to ask about that.
Quote from: Doneldon on June 10, 2013, 08:52:00 PM
J-J:
Yes, I have, and I've purchased a couple of items from him. His work is clean and carefully done. The
clerestory roof cars I purchased look like the roofs ccame that way from the factory. He emailed me to say
he will do commission work if someone needs a particular item.
-- D
Doneldon,
My baggage car and coach arrived today, and you are absolutely right. The cars are real beauties, the work clean and carefully done. The "monitor" clerestory roofs do indeed look as if they were factory originals. I'm very happy with the cars.
JBJ
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 13, 2013, 09:40:34 PM
My baggage car and coach arrived today, and you are absolutely right. The cars are real beauties, the work clean and carefully done. The "monitor" clerestory roofs do indeed look as if they were factory originals. I'm very happy with the cars.
J-J:
Great. I'm glad you like them although I'm not surprised.
-- D