Has anyone come up with a good way to reduce the engine motor speed in order to have the smoke unit operate most of the time? I did away with the standard bulb headlamp and put in a large bright white LED powered by 2 AA batteries in the belly hold on my F unit. A switch on the side turns the light on and off. The 2 batteries should last the year with no problem.
Now I would like to have smoke about all the time. Not sure which way to go. A resistor in line to the motors, or a 9V battery to power the smoke unit. Not sure 9V would be enough power or how long it would last.
Would appreciate any thoughts or a solution to this. Once the F unit is taken care of will move on the Heavy Hauler steam unit.
Roger
Thanks much.
Its simple you just need to add a resister inline with the motor
This will slow your top speed but the run too fast anyway.
NM-Jeff
I may be wrong, but most modern engines have a voltage regulator on the circuit board for the smoke unit. I don't think that anything you do will put more volts into the smoke unit. If you should succeed, you will probably burn out the unit.
Most smoke units are anemic. I always turn off the smoke unit if it is possible, if not I cut one of the wires.
Chuck
Chuck, your right in that adding more power to smoke unit would probably burn it out. I don't need more power to the smoke unit, I need less power to the motors while maintaining the power to the smoke unit.
Bachmann smoke units are relatively tough as far as burn out is concerned, as long as one stays in the proper power range. If you race the engine with no fluid in the smoke unit, yep it will go up in smoke.
I would guess that a 1/2 watt resistor in line with the motor feed would be heavy enough. What resistance (ohm) would be a good starting point? The shell isd a real pain to remove and install for to much trial and error.
Thanks much for your comments and suggestions.
Roger
I would start low like 330 ohm if you have low ohm resistors you can jus add them in series till your happy.
Trying to think through this, I am thinking a resistor would help but not that much. A better way would be some kind of electronic inverter which could up the power to the smoke unit rather than reduce the power to the motor.
Considering the short time it takes to use up the smoke fluid, raising power to the unit would use fluid up even faster. Seems to me that you might end up constantly adding fluid.
No doubt smoke users could use a better smoke unit design which might provide for more voltage electronically while building in some kind of fluid feed so that you wouldn't have to keep adding drops so often.
Any of you electronics guys have any ideas?
Bill
Dear All,
Diode bridge (plus single diodes) to drop motor voltage:
(Diodes work better than resistors.)
http://www.dallee.com/PDFs/MotorDiodeDrop.pdf
Works for DC or AC (universal) motors.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I am not an electrical engineer, but diodes regulate the direction of flow of electricity. That is how they regulate if the front or rear light is illuminated on a loco. I fail to see how a diode bridge or any other diode configuration will lower voltage any noticeable amount. That is not what diodes are designed for.
As for running out of fluid, the loco I am working with has a rather large fluid tank, about 3" long, 1/5" wide and 3/4" deep so it would run for some time before it ran out. Now some of the Bachmann smoke units would only hold few drops and are a pain to try and keep fluid in them.
I am going to try running the smoke unit with 9V from a battery and see what happens?
Thanks for all your input.
Rog
Hi chieffan,
671 here. Joe Satnik's answer is the best way to reduce voltage ( Electrical pressure ) to your motor/motors.
My scale is 'O'. I have several of the W by B Steam locos. The problem with these locos is that their motors require relatively low voltage to obtain scale like speed.
Now the challenge is this...The smoke unit needs a track voltage of approximately 9 + volts in order for the smoke unit's voltage regulator to provide the design output voltage of 7.9 volts for the 8 volt Seuth Smoke unit. Where did that voltage difference go? It was lost to the electronics within the loco's electronics.
Now, a diode helps in controlling the directional flow of the current. But diodes are slightly parasitic. What I mean is that they consume some of the voltage that is flowing through them. They 'steal' about .6 to .7 volts for each diode the current flows through.
Using this very constant voltage drain, allows us to drop voltage to any circuit within our locos.
I use the Dalllee bridge rectifier circuit along with two extra diodes. This drops my motor voltage by almost three volts. This allows me to increase track voltage by approx 3 volts to run at the same speed. The smoke circuit now receives almost three more volts. My smoke units smoke like they are on fire, yet my loco runs at a closer to scale speed.
Thank you, Joe Satnik for the slower speed and tons of smoke.
Smok'em if you got'em...671
Well, we live and learn don't we. At least part of the time. Thanks for that explanation 671. I didn't realize that a diode would drop the voltage that much. Going to order some diodes and get the soldering iron hot. Cheaper to pay the shipping on them than it is to drive 70 miles to a RS store to get them.
Roger
I still dont see the benefits in using the diodes over a resistor, once you determine the ohms needed you simply add a single resistor.
If your worried about heat all you have to do is use one rated for higher wattage.
This has the advantage of less parts to fail and provides the exact same results, lower motor speed and higher voltage to the smoke generator.
Just my opinion...
Nm-Jeff
Hi Narrowminded,
671 here.
The voltage drop across a resister is dependant upon the voltage and the current.
The voltage drop across the diode is always constant .6-.7 voltage drop.
So in conclusion if the loco is not pulling a load, the voltage drop across the resister is quite different than if it were pulling 20-30 cars up an incline.
The diode voltage reduction remains the same no matter how the voltage (throttle) changes or current (load).
The resister setup would 'pull' more power from the transformer than the diode setup for the same results.
Equal load and speed, diode reduction uses less current (watts) with a constant voltage reduction between input and output.
671
I'm not an EE, if there is a resistor or diode in the line to to the motor it will drop the voltage going to the motor slowing down the locomotive for a given voltage coming out of the power supply. That voltage drop, I think will be dissipated as heat and will not add more electrons to the smoke generator.
I think that Chieffan just wants to slow the engine down, but keep the smoke output as is, not add watts to the smoke generator.
Chuck
Chuck,
The idea behind both uses is to get the voltage to the smoke generator high enough to produce the max amount of smoke like is produced at full throttle but not having the loco motive move at full throttle speed.
So putting a resistor or diodes inline between the motor and pickups will slow the motor,
The smoke generator will not be affected so it will see all the voltage an thus produce more smoke.
Nm-jeff
Jeff:
We are now in agreement and probably have been for a while. It is just that I didn't say things as clearly as I thought I had.
Chuck
Hi all. Roger here. I tried the diode bridge in two different engines with little results. It did slow the engines down but still not getting the smoke generated. The smoke units work with the motor switch turned off. They both get real warm when running normally.
I used 1/2 watt rectifier diodes to be sure they were heavy enough to take the possible heat.
I have not tried the resistor route as yet. Familiar with that process as I have done this with several motors for driving HO displays. But - they were running with a constant applied voltage. Not the case with an engine on the tracks. I think the 9V battery may be a route worth looking into with little trouble. It may or may not have enough power. Be nice to be able to hook it in directly through the regulator on the board but that would be a real task to say the least.
I worked this out successfully in HO with DCC but in that situation I had an extra power lead from the decoder and could vary the output with a CV setting. Looking like a good winter project. along with adding ball bearing to the freight car trucks and building a couple or three houses from cedar square logs.
Thanks for all the advice and lessons in electronics.
Roger
Dear All,
Resistors generate more heat than diodes at higher speeds (can you say "melted plastic"?), and take more top end speed off the motor.
Roughly speaking, diodes subtract voltage from the motor, resistors divide voltage to the motor.
Find out what the stall current (in "Amps") is for your motor, and buy diodes rated at least that much.
Chieffan,
What type of loco do you have? This will help us figure its stall current.
Just add more single diodes (called "extra diodes" in the Dallee pdf diagram) in series (along the pdf gray wire) to get more voltage drop to the motor,
and thus higher track voltage to the smoke unit and lights.
Two diodes in series: -------l<---------l<-------
http://www.dallee.com/PDFs/MotorDiodeDrop.pdf
You can get diodes and diode bridges shipped to your door for reasonable prices from on-line auction websites.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Dear All,
George Schreyer personally answered my stall current question on LSC 5 years ago:
"I don't know if the (Bachmann) Annie is different from other 5th generation (Big Hauler) units,
but one 5th generation loco that I have (Chattanooga Choo Choo) has a hard stall current of 4 amps."
(Italicized words added.)
http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips4/tractive_effort_tests.html
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Sorry for the delay but fall work got in line first. The two engines I am working with are a Bachmann Big Hauler and an Aristocraft F7 A and B units. The Aristo units have a fairly large tank for smoke fluid where the Big Hauler is relatives small.
I had up to 3 extra diodes in the circuit and it slowed the motor but still did not get much smoke from the smoke units. I am not looking for a large plume of smoke but would like a decent indication that smoke is present.
May have to work on this more this winter and see what I can shake out of it all. A lot of things look good on paper and in theory but in actuality it simply don't work that way.
Time to go clean the tracks. :-[ :'(
Are you running these outside only?
Nm-Jeff
Yes, these are outdoor run only so the smoke odor, etc. is not a problem. ;)
Trying to get heavy smoke on an outdoor layout, in my humble opinion, is really not worth the effort. Even the slightest breeze dissipates it so fast you hardly know it is there. I quit bothering with smoke outdoors because of this sad situation.
I gave up on smoke even indoors, because the constant use of the smoke made a mess all over my locomotives and I did not like the white color.
I would love to see someone come up with a way to get black smoke!!! I would get back into smoke for sure.
My son and I did have fun with a fog machine on my Missouri Western RR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KebZD9Gf818
I'm with Bill, smoke units are more trouble than they are worth. I cut the wire as soon as I get a new steamer. Indoors it's the smell and outside I'm lucky if I can see it.
The early 18v LGB smoke units did put out a fair amount of smoke. When they went to the 5v with a voltage regulator is when I gave up on smoke.
I forgot to cut the wire on an LGB smoke unit in a Mogul. This was a later version, so I assume that it had a 5v system. I ran it for several hours dry. I now have a slightly bent stack. It got too hot and the plastic softened. That is why I'm not in favor of them.
Chuck
I recently acquired a Bachmann 36 ton Shay with the latest die cast trucks. The previous owner upgraded the smoke unit with an 5 volt LGB Seuthe type smoke unit. It works pretty good outside and is head over heels better than any Bachmann unit. Like Chuck, I disable the Bachmann units (remove them, a smoke-ectomy). I use lamp oil and it puts out a good amount of smoke. Like Bill, I wish we could get some black smoke!
I am familiar with the Seuthe smoke units. Ran several in my HO steamers. They will burn out also and one has to keep them wet all the time or switch them out. Kind of a pain. I think I am going to give up on smoke. Getting to be more of a pain then it is worth. Black smoke from a diesel in not a good sign either. Will spend my time on other projects that yield more satisfaction, like scratch building Large scale structures with cedar. :(
Since I liked smoke, early in my addiction to large scale (about 1980), but didn't want it all the time, I mounted a micro switch inside the smokebox door of some of my LGB engines, so I could turn it on and off. I finally just left it off. That is an option if you go back to trying to get smoke.
Chuck
ll of my engines have the factory switch for smoke and motor. Bachmann, Aristo and Atlas. ;D
I didn't know what you had. Some do and some don't.
Chuck
Quote from: chieffan on November 06, 2014, 01:42:54 PM
I am familiar with the Seuthe smoke units. Ran several in my HO steamers. They will burn out also and one has to keep them wet all the time or switch them out. Kind of a pain. I think I am going to give up on smoke. Getting to be more of a pain then it is worth. Black smoke from a diesel in not a good sign either. Will spend my time on other projects that yield more satisfaction, like scratch building Large scale structures with cedar. :(
All smoke units I can think of need to be switched off when dry, but the Seuthe type is much more forgiving than the Bachmann units. If smoke is not for you, so be it. Do what makes YOU happy! :D