I have noticed that in the past Bachmann made undercorated model locomotives for almost every model available in the past in there diesel line up .Now I have not seen any produced.Is this something that is gone for good, or do they plan more in the future ?
Johnny
What is undercoated?
This came up for discussion several years ago.
The Bachmann response was not enough $$ to be had in the sales of and production and marketing of undecorated locos. Sorry brokenail :'(
Example of undecorated Joe
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Atlas-Master-HO-Alco-S2-Undec-DCC-p/atl-10001482.htm
Johnny are you are thinking about "painted unlettered"
Did you guys really miss Rich's tongue in cheek question about what an undercoated loco is ??? :D
Bless me, Fr. brock, the devil made me do it...
Rich C.
No blessing needed, you got a laugh out of me when I read it Rich! :D
I guess not everyone shares the same sense of humor...
Quote from: Hunt on December 17, 2015, 02:23:28 PM
Johnny are you are thinking about "painted unlettered"
Bachmann has offers at least some of their steam engines "painted / unlettered", and a few of their diesels. However those of us modeling a free-lanced railroad like to get undecorated gray plastic diesels, so we can paint and letter them for our own railroad. Bachmann doesn't offer undecorated versions, at least rarely if ever.
Quote from: wjstix on December 18, 2015, 01:33:41 PM
Bachmann has offers at least some of their steam engines "painted / unlettered", and a few of their diesels. However those of us modeling a free-lanced railroad like to get undecorated gray plastic diesels, so we can paint and letter them for our own railroad. Bachmann doesn't offer undecorated versions, at least rarely if ever.
This is false, Bachmann has offered over the years a good amount of undecorated models but has not produced them as much recently because sales of those models has dictated that their production can not be justified.
ACY; you are correc-it from correcticus!
Bachmann, as well as others, not to be left out of a rather lucrative segment of this market, did, indeed, offer "painted/unletteed'. Now, did they offer 'unpainted', I don't offhand remember.
Rich C.
Yes they did. I have come across Spectrum diesel ones on EBay.
I remember also the Spectrum Ge dash 8-40 cw came in a undercoated version and included 3 different cab versions.This had to be in the 90's .They should set aside a few to cater to the few .Its model railroading!Saves a lot of hassle tearing down and stripping paint with chemicals.Is anybody selling undercoated anymore??Athearn is the only one .They are few and far between.Still a few.
Johnny
Yes. You can find Atlas, ConCor and Kato undecorated diesel locos for sure. J.A., you're beginning to make me wonder now, do you really mean to say undercoated ???
And keep in mind, you can always strip and repaint an already painted loco. I like to use 90% alcohol in a zip loc bag to do that (strip the paint that is).
un -decorated .Blame it on the computer.Thanks for the refresher.I had a Rivarossi Passenger car I had to strip down and tried using brake fluid,The alcohol method you mentioned and it was impenetrable compared to everything else that normally takes from a few hours or overnight took a week of harsh scrubbing to almost get it all off.What ever paint process they used has to be the strongest I have seen to date.You ever run
across that?
Johnny Adam
I was speaking specifically about undecorated and not painted unlettered. Several of the Spectrum models from the late 1990s were made unpainted, completely undecorated and unassembled shells etc.
I see. I know Bachmann has a few painted unlettered Steam engines ,Un-Numbered diesels also. I would by a painted un-lettered diesel as mentioned prier .Painted un-lettered sure would be a time saver from un-decorated anyway.
You're welcome.
I stay away from brake fluid-too caustic in my book and never had anything but success with 90% alcohol. I put the loco shell in a gallon size zip loc bag and put just enough alcohol in to cover the shell. Get the air out of the bag and zip it up and let it sit for a day or so. I see people on YouTube filing a tub and you don't need to use that much alcohol. You just need enough to cover the shell. I use a previously cleaned toothbrush to brush off any stubborn spots of paint, The alcohol will dry you hands out, so you might want to wear latex gloves while cleaning off the loco. Once done, the shell gets cleaned off with soapy water. When I run out of alcohol, I am going to try a purple cleaner found at Walmart. The name escapes me at the moment.
Castrol Super Clean. ;D
Sid
Thank you. I knew you would know, bc after all, it was you who told me about it ;D
Jim;
An alcohol stripping proceedure has been around for a long time. WHen I was stationed in Indiana, some guy over in Peru was using it in '67. This was before the really decorated models came around. The one thing I did read was that; regarding brake fluid on the newer plastic compounds that make up these really nice engines-don't use it. Not sure i remember where I saw it, but the brake fluid will make the newer compounds very brittle.
Your idea of using the zip-lok is a good one. The only thing I would be concerned with is how effective that smaller amount of alcohol would be on a larger model. One of the things that I like is that you can actually 'see' the object. This means that you can open the bag, and if you have to, use a stiff brush or toothbrush, etc., to assist the task.
On a different note; Did Roger T. fall off of the side of the earth?
Rich C.
Thanks for the kudos Rich :) Yes, that is why I stay away from brake fluid.
RE: the bag-an advantage aside from as you pointed out, that you can see the model, is you can also "swish" the bag around with the shell in it (not too vigorously as you don't want to puncture the bag :o)) and this ensures the alcohol makes contact with all surfaces. I see no need to use a Rubbermaid tub full of alcohol, to me it just wastes more alcohol than needed. As you alluded to, I do the brushing while the shell is in the bag, while the bag is in the kitchen sink and the alcohol still in the bag.
If I had to guess about Roger I would guess he has been busy working.
P2K can be added to the list of undecorated diesels.
I like that alcohol in the bag idea Genus .I haven't had any problems with the brake fluid in the most part ,but a mess it is, along with the cost.Time to change .The bag keeps the alcohol from evaporating so it gives it more working
time.Thanks for the tip!Any knowledge on removing lettering without disturbing the paint finish on these newer
Bachmamm models.The older Bachmann models would release the lettering with some good sticky tape. Referring to the
Spectrum/Plus series years.These new models seem to have a top coat of some type that seals them in ,so the old method of tape and or eraser does not do it.Any ideas ?
QuoteThe older Bachmann models would release the lettering with some good sticky tape. Referring to the
Spectrum/Plus series years.These new models seem to have a top coat of some type that seals them in ,so the old method of tape and or eraser does not do it.Any ideas ?
For removing lettering/numbering without damaging underlying paint, look here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gf7xqIHGMQ
This works for me. Your mileage may vary.
Good luck.
Thank you
broken. You're welcome :).
Quote from: brokenrail on December 20, 2015, 02:22:22 PM
The bag keeps the alcohol from evaporating so it gives it more working time.
You got it!
Re: removing decals-
Jim's liquid method seems the way to go. I have seen video of people using a fat Exacto knife blade, don't know the #, but it looks like a scalpel, and they scrape the letter or number off.
Thanks,
I have seen that scraper method. I for one would end up having to repaint the whole thing and break out the bondo using that scraper method.Kind of makes me cringe seeing it done that way on a very nice model finish, knowing how mine turned out when I gave it a try on a old junker when I had better eyes. I have used alcohol to remove the print on a older kato and it worked without removing any of the base paint .Did not work so well on others.
Johnny Adam
To get painted but undecorated Diesel shouldn't be too bad, as that is how the actual locomotives look before they are painted. They come in gray primer before being painted to suit the customer.
The strangest experience I had with this was back in 1969 when I bought a new AHM Fairbanks-Morse C-Liner in HO. It was painted in Penn Central Black. I wanted to strip it to repaint it in my own railroad color scheme (silver and green).
When I stripped off the black paint (using Pine-Sol. Don't leave it on very long or it will attack the plastic.), under the black paint was a full NH McGinnis paint job! The factory had done to the NH locomotive what PC did to the actual NH locomotive: just sprayed it black over the NH paint. Black seemed to cover orange and white pretty well.
Actually, I thought the NH paint job looked 100% better.
Les
I have never understood the argument that unlettered steam locos cannot be justified on cost grounds. They are simply fully painted models that do not go through the final lettering process, and their box is just a standard box with a stick-on label saying "unlettered". In view of the number of steam decal sheets available from the likes of MicroScale there must be some demand. It would do Bachmann no harm to produce a couple of dozen in every production run and park them at a major retailer.
This might perhaps be linked to the fact that Bachmann seem unable to sell anything at list price. The list price for the Baldwin Modern 4-4-0 with DCC is $359 and with sound $499, but the big retailers sell them for $109.99 and $199.99 respectively. I often wonder what price Bachmann sell them for to MB Klein and Trainworld.
On the basis that there must be modellers of far more railroads than the half dozen Bachmann choose for any particular model in their range the market must be there. I am speaking of steam - there are diesels for almost everyone. But are there not steam age modellers for, e.g. the Central of Georgia, for whom Microscale make a steam decal sheet? Or 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s for the Rock Island (another MS sheet). And they are just two of the hundreds of US steam age railroads.
It baffles me!
Bill.
The nice thing about using a zip loc bag, is you throw it out when done, no having to clean it. I also have them readily around for food and freezer storage purposes and don't have to have something unique to this process, set aside. Would I be correct to guess that you clean out your Tupperware between uses, even if relegated to stripping?
Re: 99% Alcohol. We have discussed this here before; 99% while available in Oh Canada, has never been something I have found in the States, hence the use of 90%, or that purple stuff.
Jim; run down to the package store and buy a bottle of Graves Grain Alcohol. I use it for cherries, but I am sure it would do a slam-bang job on paint...
Rich C.
Addendum:
It is 95 proof....
works well on cherries...
Rich C.
Spectrum undecorated are still out there. Though I have not seen any new products undecorated. But myself I wish they would produce a few more. I only have 2 undecorated bachmann spectrum engines which are the Fairbanks Morris H16-44 and GE 70 tonner
Quote from: VA NS train Lover on December 22, 2015, 03:19:12 PM
Spectrum undecorated are still out there.
You don't say?
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 19, 2015, 01:03:10 PM
I have come across Spectrum diesel ones on EBay.
Rich, in college, grain was for drinkin, sometimes even straight :P And thanks for the tip :)
Quote from: doctorwayne on December 23, 2015, 02:36:53 AM
As for the 99% alcohol, I read somewhere (the Model Railroader Forum, I think) that 99% alcohol is available in the U.S., but that it's not kept on display - you have to ask for it.
Wayne
Of course, everything said on the MRRF is completely accurate, LOL! And that seems like a rather odd practice to me. Did this poster ever say where such places are keeping it in their back room?
If I ever find it south of the border, I'll let y'all know.
Rich, "95 Proof" would be about 47.5% alcohol.
Excuse it, Jim; 95% alcohol. Makes one heck of a thump when it hits bottom, I'll tell you!
Rich C.
The undecorated steam engines always sold out first. Never understood why they quit being offered. I got some of nearly all of them while I could.
Some one at Bachmann a few years back had a fascination with steam engines lettered for southern railroads, the Southern and Seaboard in particular . There were even a couple of engines lettered for the MoPac. They were always the last to sell. Those days are gone. It's mostly back to the train set railroads now ...... NYC, PRR, ATSF. But, there's a T&P ten wheeler and a Frisco MacArthur coming out. I'll be getting both.
Add Walthers Mainline to the list of undecorateds.
I agree with Trainman 203.
Undec steam always sold out first.
The decision by the so called "expert" sales "suits" was a poor one and should be rescinded ASAP.
Bring back undecs!!!!!!!!
Merry Christmas
Roger T.
For stripping models it is 99% Isopropyl Alcohol that is the best. Not "99% alcohol". Big difference. :)
99% Isopropyl Alcohol is readily available in Canadian drugs stores, it's displayed on the shelves.
In fact, I have a 500ml plastic bottle of "Life" brand 99% sitting to my left as I type this.
Merry Christmas.
Roger T.
Yes a Merry Christmas to you as well!
And yes, we have been over this before as I mentioned. It's terrific, as has already been established, that it's available, in Canada...
Quote from: rogertra on December 24, 2015, 04:51:43 PM
I agree with Trainman 203.
Undec steam always sold out first.
The decision by the so called "expert" sales "suits" was a poor one and should be rescinded ASAP.
Bring back undecs!!!!!!!!
I will have to agree here, Undecorated models always sold out way before actual roadnames did. Sort of how the Undec models go for more money on the bay. It's hard to overlook actual results.
Quote from: ryeguyisme on December 25, 2015, 01:10:19 AM
Quote from: rogertra on December 24, 2015, 04:51:43 PM
I agree with Trainman 203.
Undec steam always sold out first.
The decision by the so called "expert" sales "suits" was a poor one and should be rescinded ASAP.
Bring back undecs!!!!!!!!
I will have to agree here, Undecorated models always sold out way before actual roadnames did. Sort of how the Undec models go for more money on the bay. It's hard to overlook actual results.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Undecorated models were always done in lower quantities and ended up being sold to distributors at a bigger discount in order to get them out of the warehouse.
Well folks, there's the inside track. A business is a business. At least we have steam engines at all and I am thankful for that.
Trainman;
The inside track is what runs just about any business, and what runs the inside track is dinero.
All in all, I consider Bachmann about the finest equipment-for the money-available to the hobbyist; it is inexpensive, straightforward, and easy to up-grade, add appliances to, etc. Of course, we, approach this hobby from different corners, but the supplier is going largely on sales and the profit to back them up. IN my business as an electrician, I evolved into a service type facility. I enjoy troubleshooting, repairing and modification of equipment, and like the aspect of being mobile daily. It happens that I make a comfortable living at it. Most businesses, to a greater or lesser extant, operate by the same set of mechanics.
I might be inclined to debate Yardmaster on a couple of aspects; if there wasn't a steady demand for parts, the dept. might not function on the same way; hence the painted "unlettered" or "undec" parts like tenders. All in all, I am satisfied with Bachmann.
Rich C.
Quote from: doctorwayne on December 25, 2015, 03:11:47 PM
I have ten Bachmann steam locomotives (8 Consolidations, 1 Light USRA Mountain, and 1 USRA 2-6-6-2) All were bought as painted but unlettered models, and I've also bought a number of USRA tenders, both regular and long versions, and all were unlettered. I'm very glad that such an option was available, but am no longer in need of further locomotives, so hopefully that will leave a few more available for those who like to paint and decorate their own. ;D
Wayne
Same with me when it comes to Bachmann undecs.
I have five 2-8-0s, three 2-10-0s, three light 2-8-4s, two heavy 2-8-4s, two low driver 4-6-0s and two high driver 4-6-0s all undec.
In addition I have another 2-8-0 that came letter (second hand) and two 2-6-0s. I know one of the 2-6-0s came lettered as I sent in one of my painted and detailed 2-6-0s for repair with a request that it be returned and not replaced but they just replaced it and the other, I don't recall whether it was an undec or not.
In addition, I have two Athearn 4-6-2s, two Athearn 2-8-2s, one P2K 0-6-0 and one P2K 0-8-0, all of which were undecs.
When it comes to my freight diesels, I prefer undecs but if none are avaiable, then units in a basic black with simple lettering are prefered. Something the lettering is simple to remove.
So as you can tell, I'm a big fan of the "Undec Railroad". :)
Passenger engines need to be in Canadian Pacific block letter. I remove the Canadian Pacific and replace it with my own road name. Simple way to get a fancy passenger scheme.
Merry Christmas.
Roger T.
Quote from: James in FL on December 20, 2015, 03:16:13 PM
QuoteThe older Bachmann models would release the lettering with some good sticky tape. Referring to the
Spectrum/Plus series years.These new models seem to have a top coat of some type that seals them in ,so the old method of tape and or eraser does not do it.Any ideas ?
For removing lettering/numbering without damaging underlying paint, look here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gf7xqIHGMQ
This works for me. Your mileage may vary.
Good luck.
Thank You !
Add Mantua (at least diesels anyway) to the list of undecorateds.
Witch Mantua Diesel?
I have over three dozen Bachmann Spectrum steam engines. The majority of these are 4-6-0's and 4-4-0's, a couple of each of the 2-8-0's, 2-10-0's, 4-8-2's both light and heavy versions as well as two 2-6-6-2's these were all bought as painted but undecorated models, I also have three 2-10-2's of which were lettered in the CNR livery and I kept them as such.
It sure seems that at least on this forum there is interest in painted but undecorated steam engines.
Quote from: brokenrail on January 01, 2016, 08:04:38 PM
Witch Mantua Diesel?
Came across a GP 20 this afternoon.
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 17, 2015, 11:36:19 AM
This came up for discussion several years ago.
The Bachmann response was not enough $$ to be had in the sales of and production and marketing of undecorated locos. Sorry brokenail :'(
Most who purchase undecorated models want to start out with as accurate of a shell as possible.The past models had too many inaccuracy's compared to many out today that are much better.May be a good reason why they did not sell.
Broken Rail;
I had posted earlier with regards to the logistics faced by a company such as Bachmann. I can accept that what they do for the most part, is a generalization of a specific wheel arrangement. If I want to pursue a specific product, I will use the otherwise fine-running model that is close. It is when they start getting prototype specific that prices will, like brass, become high, or they will just discontinue this endeavor.
Before Proto/Lifelike got picked up by Walthers-and they might still-they had a line of foam containers, such as coolers. I would not be too surprised to discover that Bachmann was involved with the same type of approach. We do what we must in order to accomplish what we love.
RIch C.
Quote from: brokenrail on January 03, 2016, 06:02:15 AM
Most who purchase undecorated models want to start out with as accurate of a shell as possible.The past models had too many inaccuracy's compared to many out today that are much better.May be a good reason why they did not sell.
I don't know, you'd have to talk to
Mr. Bachmann about that.
But if your theory was correct, there would be a lot more unsold models out there, both undecorated
and decorated.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on January 03, 2016, 10:13:06 AM
Broken Rail;
I had posted earlier with regards to the logistics faced by a company such as Bachmann. I can accept that what they do for the most part, is a generalization of a specific wheel arrangement. If I want to pursue a specific product, I will use the otherwise fine-running model that is close. It is when they start getting prototype specific that prices will, like brass, become high, or they will just discontinue this endeavor.
Before Proto/Lifelike got picked up by Walthers-and they might still-they had a line of foam containers, such as coolers. I would not be too surprised to discover that Bachmann was involved with the same type of approach. We do what we must in order to accomplish what we love.
RIch C.
Rich, Great honest comment without bias .Got those rails in your blood too.
Johnny