To all who wished to help
After Perusing over several photographs of Conrail locomotives in action and a quik info trip to wikipedia i have reason to believe that Conrail the mostly freight oriented railroad for a brief period had passenger operations is this true?
If so I was wondering what would be the best prototype of coaches to use from a custom repaint job. get back to me ASAP
Simon Greasly
Okay, a brief history:
Conrail was formed in 1976 after the near-liquidation of the giant Penn Central and the bankruptcy of several other northeastern railroads, such as the Reading and Erie-Lackawanna. Conrail operated mostly freight, but also operated the commuter services it inherted from its predecessors. By this time, most of these services were already partially subsidized by local governments. These commuter services were already unprofitable, and Conrail didn't want to waste any of its scant funds on new equipment. As a result, much of Conrail's commuter equipment was ancient, dating back from the 1920's in some cases. During the 1960's, however, some local governments bought new commuter equipment for Conrail predecessors, and these were the only ones Conrail operated that were built post-WWII. The Northeast Rail Service Act in 1981 relieved Conrail of the burden of operating commuter services.
The best source for Conrail-era passenger equipment is probably Island Model Works (http://islandmodelworks.com/index.html). Some of their models, such as the MP72, were around during Conrail. Unfortunately, they only offer their N-scale models as shells, although you could probably use a Kato RDC to power them. Another option is Imperial Hobby Productions, which offers a complete M-1 kit in N-scale (http://ihphobby.tripod.com/).
First of all thx Conrail Quality for the info it will help me out with modeling my layout.
I'm not really interested in powering coaches i'm actually looking for something to repaint to be pulled by my two minitrix Conrail F9s so i was thinking either the Con-cor Smooth sides or Model Power Heavyweights which would be better.
Also in terms of Layout how would be the best way to model Amtrak plus Conrail Operations.
The Con-Cor smooth-sides are long distance passenger train cars as were most heavyweights (there are always exceptions). CR's commuter trains never ran heavyweigh equiptment so while the Con-Cor cars are incorrect, they are not as incorrect as a heavyweight.
If you areing through the trobble of repainting, I suggest you try your hand at painting the resin shells. All that is required is to wash them carfully frst.
I belive CR's F units running around Philly had yellow noses. I have not been able to find many photos of it though.
Another option, especially if you model post 1981 is to build the Conrail OCS (office car special). This executive train would run the whole system carrying vice presidents and high profile clients. The entire train is painted in PRR Brunswick Green and even included heavyweight cars:
http://www.conrailcorp.com/4022trip.html
Con-Cor actually sold a set of CR Executive Train E-8s. They had a Kato drive and came in a red box with a gold (or maybe it was silver) label on the end of the box. There was one powered and one dummy. I do not know if C-C ever sold the matching cars.
They ran fairly well for their time, although the powered unit was slippery. There are two simple solutions to the problem:
1. Buy another set of whatever and swap out the shells. This might involve re-painting the pilot on the second one if it is not a CR.
2. The later C-C E-unit chassis actually pulled better than did the Kato; it simply did not operate as well. You could buy a pair of those and do a swap of shells and re-paint the pilot.
Considering how many roads that LL made available on its plastic frame E-8s, I was suprised that it did not issue a CR Executive unit.
I see the C-C sets at shows from time to time. If the prices are rather high on them, it is no doubt more for its value as a collector's item, as the drive is out of date.
Considering how many modern era modellers that there are in N scale, I am surprised that there has not been more of a demand for a CR Executive train.
I will have to ask Ed the next time that I see him.
I've actually seen the E8's you're talking about there is a set of them on Ebay selling very rediculously high. so that is way out of my budget. The F units i have are all blue with the Conrail logo on the side and i'm not to particulary interested in repainting them like that. It just so happens that i have the link for the picture i found that lead me on to the passenger services operated by Conrail here it is.
http://adsl-69-213-240-177.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net/amtrak/amtTurbosUA/UATCRNoserp.jpg
Right there you can see the logo to me it looks like either a smoothside or a heavyweight i just am not to knoledgeable in coaches to be able to determine.
Also while we are on the subject is it true that kato is releasing a GG1 if so i think someone should suggest them to sell it in Conrail Colors.
The car in the photgraph is a business car. It may have once been a heavyweight open deck observation car that some road used in revenue service, but I am not familiar with the history of Conrail #3. I can not tell from the photograph if it has six wheel or four wheel trucks.
Because it has a clerestory roof, I am guessing that it is a rebuilt HW car. Most roads stopped using open-deck observation cars in revenue passenger service by the late 1940s, although some did hang on in revenue service past that point. I do not know if AMTRAK ever used any of these in revenue service.
This is the kind of car that would operate in an Executive train. If it were on a revenue passenger train, it would not be transporting revenue passengers, it would be transporting Company Officials, shippers, Gubbamint Offishulz, or the like.
Many roads converted their open deck observation cars to office or business cars. Some even had the builders construct lightweight business cars during the 1940s and 1950s. The Kato N scale business car is an example of one such car type; there were others.
Quote from: Simon Greasly on February 04, 2008, 11:22:33 PM
First of all thx Conrail Quality for the info it will help me out with modeling my layout.
I'm not really interested in powering coaches i'm actually looking for something to repaint to be pulled by my two minitrix Conrail F9s so i was thinking either the Con-cor Smooth sides or Model Power Heavyweights which would be better.
Also in terms of Layout how would be the best way to model Amtrak plus Conrail Operations.
For heavyweights, you may find a set of Model Power's painted for PRR. AFAIK they could be correct for old coaches. You could heavily weather & rust them to make it look like they belong in the junk yard. They sell 1 combine & 3 coaches in the set. They could be reworked with a new roof to install an a/c system for the passengers.
well I'm not one for accuracy when it comes to prototypes but i figured that I could simply repaint a consist of 4 Model Power Heavyweights in Conrail Blue with Microscale decals but obviously it is more complicated than that if anyone has any more pictures of the Blue Conrail Passenger cars that would be helpful. Also interesting question that I'm bringing out at random did Conrail ever operate F45s i mean they were used by most railroads and it that is so that might present another project to do.
AFAIK Conrail never repainted any predecessor commuter cars to blue. Their early office car train did use blue passenger cars, however. CR had several commuter operations it took over (operating on behalf of state governments, of course): the Valpo local out of Chicago may still have used heavyweight coaches, probably P70's like the Model Power cars. They also operated commuter service between Cleveland and Youngstown, using ex-EL equipment. And of course, they operated what are now NJ Transit operations on behalf of NJDOT. I don't know about Philadephia. And CR ran the Metro North commuter operations for a time. That's where you'd see FL9's with yellow noses. I think they were the ony F units used in passenger service by CR.
The Chicago operation used steam generator equipped GP7's. Almost all other commuter operations used E's and maybe GG1's in NJ. They continued to operate the ex-EL MU cars in non-corridor electrified territory. Most of the passenger cars retained PC or EL lettering.
If you want to model both CR and Amtrak and don't want to model electrified territory, your pickings are a bit slim.
Incidentally, Conrail also operated for a brief time commuter service from Pittsburgh to Greensburg PA (on behalf of PennDOT), while the Parkway was being rebuilt. In this case they used U36B's (I believe, four axle GE's anyway) on each end of the trainsets.
well thx for your help this might make this a whole lot easier. You mentioned E units like the E44 or the E60? do they even make the 44 in N scale?
Also like i've been saying i'm not to picky on prototype when it comes to the actual layout it is just the engines and coaches i have problems with but if you have a track plan that would work for me that would be great.
I did some surfing and found an interesting photo of one of those E8s mentioned earlier it seems that they were painted in Conrail Blue before being used for the executive train.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=236649
I don't know if this is accurate info but it is still interesting
I was talking about E8's and maybe a few E7's, though I'm far from sure about the latter. The photo you linked to shows one of the blue E8's in New Jersey Transit Commuter service. It may well have been used on commuter trains when not in office train service. Actually I think this must have been the case, since CR operated office trains before 1980, the date of the photo. They used three of them: 4020, 4021 & 4022. All were repainted Pullman Green in the mid 80's, and all survive, privately owned, in predecessor colors today. One of them, restored as Erie 833, sits in the NYSW yards in Binghamton NY as I write.
So the bottom line here would probably be some Con-cor Smooth sides Repainted in Conrail Blue with the decals right? I mean that is the whole point i started this in the first place i guess i got a little carried away and started talking about repainting the diesels to :-[ all well I guess it can not be helped we all do it sometimes. But still I wouldn't mind modeling something along the terms of the Corridor or where ever Conrail ran Luckily one of the only Train shops in town actually sells a cantarary Line for N scale so i can use that. One more quick question though were their any other strange Locomotives used by Conrail?
Quote from: Simon Greasly on February 06, 2008, 01:52:09 PM
You mentioned E units like the E44 or the E60?
I did some surfing and found an interesting photo of one of those E8s mentioned earlier.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=236649
And the second unit appears to be still in its Erie paint, but I can not quite tell, due to the angle of the photograph. It does appear that the size of the number on the second unit is not Erie practice, but again, the angle of the photograph makes it difficult to be sure.
By E-units, I mean EA, E-1, E-2, E-3, E-5, E-6, E-7, E-8, E-9. The Electro-Motive division of General Motors built these as
A-1-A trucked passenger diesels. EMD built the EAs through
E-3s for specific roads. I am not sure about the E-4. The CB&Q had most of the E-5s, but I seem to recall that a few others may have had them. The E-6 was the first that went into mass production. EMD built the E-7s, E-8s and E-9s after the Second World War. (although the first E-7s did start to appear in mid-1945, while that war was still in progress).
The first, the EA, appeared in 1937, EMD built them for the Baltimore and Ohio. Some assert that ATSF also received some, others assert that ATSF's were E-1s. The second war suspended production of the E-6s, as the only diesels that were supposed to be built during that war were freight units or switchers, although ALCo did get away with building some DL-109s for NYNH&H, which used them for passenger trains by day, and freight at night. NYNH&H ran these things hard during that war and they held up.
In 1945 the E-7s appeared, followed by the E-8s and E-9s. EMD built the last E-9 for Tio Pedrito in 1963.
The Es that you mentioned are GE passenger electrics.
I see well that makes sense now didn't realize that there was such a long history to the E units. those Dl-109s you mentioned what ever happened to them are any still around today?
I believe the second unit in the photo must be NJ Transit (or NJDOT, as it was called then). The photo is reported to have been taken at South Amboy (if I'm looking at the same picture.) All ex-Erie units were in EL colors long before 1980.
EDIT: Here's another view of the 4325: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/njdot/njt4325irc.jpg
Quote from: Simon Greasly on February 04, 2008, 11:22:33 PM
Also in terms of Layout how would be the best way to model Amtrak plus Conrail Operations.
If you don't want to model the electrified northeast corridor, your options are actually pretty limited, since no one seems to make an Amfleet II in N-scale. Still, you can do it, it just depends what limitations you are willing to accept. You could do Empire Service runs between New York and Buffalo with a Kato P42 and 4-6 Bachmann Amfleets. The problem with that is that Empire Service trains actually run with a P32AC-DM, not a P42. Still, they are close enough that unless you are looking for it, you would be unlikely to tell the differnce. The other option would be the Capitol Limited, which could be modeled with Kato P42's or F40PH's and Superliners. However, that would restrict you to the midwestern parts of Conrail (Ohio, Indiana, etc). The big problem with both of these is that by this time the Conrail commuter services were long gone, so the only Conrail passenger train you could run prtotypically would be the Office Car Special.
hmm i see well that helps out a whole bunch but i still don't know what would be the best coaches to repaint for a commuter train by Conrail i don't want to use the heavyweights unless they are prototypically accurate but i might not have a choice.
Quote from: Simon Greasly on February 07, 2008, 09:05:45 AM
those Dl-109s you mentioned what ever happened to them are any still around today?
The NYNH&H, which had the most (sixty), was still using some of theirs on some commuter trains in the early 1960s. I suspect that at that point they were more back-up power than anything.
ALCo originally marketed them as passenger power; they had
A-1-A trucks. While some freight power did have A-1-A trucks, in most cases, that was a passenger power truck. The first purchasers of these, the Gulf, Mobile and Northern and the Rock Island, bought them as passenger power.
NYNH&H also bought them with the intention of using them as passenger power, but their availability rate proved to be so high, compared to steam power, that the railroad began to operate them around the clock. The NYNH&H New York-Boston main line has a fairly flat profile. These things had the 539 prime mover, which also powered many of ALCo's yard goats and the RS-1. The RS-1 had the longest (and basically unchanged) production run of any US railroad diesel (1941-1960). Some RS-1s still operate to-day. NYNH&H always operated numerous passenger trains. The passengers ran mostly by day; NYNH&H operated most of their freight trains at night.
Due to wartime urgencies, most of NYNH&H's DL-109s showed up with plywood sides(!). Beginning in 1946, the New Haven began to replace the plywood sides with steel sides. This resulted in some changes to the window arrangement and alignment.
ALCo produced the DL-109s from 1940-1945. There were early models designated DL-103, 105 and several 'B' units that it designated DL-110, but they were also basically the same as the DL-109.
The PA-1 superceded them in 1946. The PAs, while arguably the best looking road diesel locomotives ever produced, did not prove as reliable as the DL-109s. In fact, the NYNH&H was still operating its DL-109s after some users of the PA-1s or PA-2s had scrapped or traded in those locomotives.
I do not know if any survive; perhaps the National Museum of Transport has one. ***EDITORIAL NOTE: No DL-109s survive. The last one was around until 1970. Penn Central was using it as an electrical power unit, a use to which NYNH&H had converted it in the late 1950s. Finally, PC ordered it cut up. (NYNH&H became part of Penn Central in 1969).