Bachmann N 4-8-4 derailments

[SP2562]

For some reason, every couple times around, the leading trucks of my 4-8-4 (the SP one) continuously derail for no seeable reason. I have modified the track countless times and my KATO diesel runs fine. For those wondering, the track is Atlas Code 80. The leading wheels are screwed in the max they can go, and the rerailers (modified EZ terminals) don't help it rerail it and make it worse. Can someone help me out?

Thanks

SP2562

[spgass]

What is the radius of the curves?  My 4-8-4 (N&W 611) I think is supposed to perform best on 19" radius curves, but I haven't had any problems on Kato 12 3/8" radius curves.

[mrmtox]

If you'll scroll down a bit to the topic "derailments" you'll see that several of us have had/do have the exact same problem with that unit. Several solutions are possibles, the first being - send it back and get one that's not defective (that's what I did).  That front truck is too light and bounces/raises up etc at any small excuse. Keep posting on this and several of us will offer advice (that's the easy part!)

[ejfoye]

I just purchased a Southern 4-8-4 that the front truck derails the engine at each and every one of my 11 Atlas switches.  It runs fine on an 11 in radius and will make a 9 3/4 if it is going slow.  There has to be a way to solve this.

[mrmtox]

The only solution that several of us have found is to add additional weight to the front truck or place washers between the truck and its screw. Again, see the posts on p. 2 "derailments".  These units are simply heavy in the rear so that when it hits a switch or even a slightly rough rail connection the front wheels jump.  I could watch the front truck and actually see the front wheels lifting up slightly.

[ericw95]

I just thought id let you know that if youre using atlas code 80 turnouts, youre in for a ride. When i first got into n scale, i bought some turnouts with the 4-8-4. i had a diesel from some years back. the diesel was fine, the steam had continuous issues. if it wasn't jumping the points, it was stalling on the frog. not well designed turnouts. i would honestly recommend trying peco turnouts as an alternative for any future purchases. the tie spacing is slightly different than the atlas, but they are a much better product and are held in position by springs. hope this helps some
  like mrmtox said there are some solutions that were listed on his post that should work. also,you should know the loco performs far better with an extensive break in period (mine was like 10 hours before i started getting consistent performance.

[DoubleDAZ]

also,you should know the loco performs far better with an extensive break in period (mine was like 10 hours before i started getting consistent performance.

Not too long ago, I received a replacement loco for the one that came with my Empire Builder set and I still haven't broken it in.  I haven't startedmy layput yet, so I'm getting ready to set up a small oval for that purpose this weekend.  My understanding is that you run the loco for at least 2 hours varying the speed every few minutes and never run it at full speed.  I assume you're saying I should do that for a few hours each day until I get around 10 hours of running in.  Is that correct?  Can I vary the speed every 10 minutes or so or does it have to be more often than that?

[mrmtox]

I don't think the "breaking in"period is all that rigid. Just run it a while at various speeds - it really does seem to make quite a difference.

[James in FL]

I'm not a proponent of "breaking in" any locomotive by putting it on the tracks by itself, and running at various speeds and both directions for hours on end.
It is true, especially with steam (not so much diesel) that the performance will improve somewhat with several hours run time.
Other than seating the brushes to the commutator (increasing surface contact) there is no benefit to motor performance.
There is noticeable benefit to the drive mechanism as the gears mesh (lap) and any small burrs on the side rods, linkage, etc. will be polished (worn) off.
At the point that this occurs, this is what is perceived as "broken in" and the mechanism becomes "loose" or free.
There is a "point or time" when optimum performance is obtained.
When, exactly that is, depends on many factors.
Many locos perform smooth right out of the box, and will continue to do so, for many, many years.
Some will improve over longer run time.
Few are dogs and will never run really great (most of these have design flaws).

That said;
Machinery and mechanical things in general (our little locos) don't "wear in" in fact rather they "wear out".
Life or life cycles, or life hours is something designed into products beginning back into R&D (research and development) of the design process before bringing a product to market.
One of the first things an R&D department will look at is the competition, how long does theirs (other competition) last, how long will it perform the specific duty, what is their price point, what is our price point etc. where do we fit into this market?

Most importantly is cost.
This refers to ROI (return on investment).
How many units do we have to sell to recoup our money?
Is it worth the capital investment?
Which segment of the market are we going after?
How good does it have to be, to be competitive in the market (segment)?
These are all considerations for a corporation years before a model is mass produced.

Now I'm off on a tangent, and I'll get back on track...

You will not drive a Lexus at a Yogo price.
To a corporation, "quality" is "a conformance to requirements".
What that corporation(s) (as determined to market share and segment) deems as "quality" differs.
Now I'm back "on track" let me get back on the "main".

I have locos that have 600+ hours of run time that run, as I perceive, as new.
I have locos that didn't last ~ 30 hours that burnt out the motor due to binding mechanisms'.
What I'm trying to say here is... put that lokie on the tracks, couple your consist, and run that bad boy.
Speed is not that important, neither is direction.
I have locos that have not seen 2 hours in reverse compared to hundreds in forward, which run flawless (in both directions).

"Break in", or rather "wear out" is highly overrated.

If you insist...make a flat figure eight with an "X" crossing, that way you have both equal right and left curves.
Consider how many hours you removed from the "life" of your lokie.

Just run it.

It is what it is.

Good luck

[skipgear]

I will strongly disagree with the above statement. I have personal experience that proves a break in period improves performance.

I have a lot of time on the Bachmann 0-6-0 chassis. My first experience with one and my currently best running version has well over 500 hours on it. It is the smoothest running and best pulling loco of all the 0-6-0's I own, and it's the old version, not the newer split frame.

The loco started life running on a christmas display at the hobbyshop I work at. It ran for two months, 7 days a week, 10AM - 9pm M-Sat 11-5 Sun. (72 hours a week * 8 weeks = 576 hours). I cleaned / lubed the loco once a week or so and at the cleaning, changed the direction of the loco. The loco initially had a small hitch at slow speed. By the end of the first week the hitch was gone and the loco would run slower and smoother. After the holidays the layout was taken down and stuffed in a box. A few years later we were cleaning the back room, found the set and it was given to me to get it out of the way. I brought the loco home and cleaned it up. It ran great and still does to this day. It is nowhere near worn out and gets run hours at a time at the various trainshows I attend.

Since that Christmas layout, we have built a permanent display layout for the store. I have run the newer 0-6-0's on it since it was finished. We usually get about 6 months out of one of the 0-6-0's before it wears itself out. Usually the side rods or crank pins fail before anything else and this is understandable as the layout has 6.5" minimum radius. The longest one has gone was 9 months with some extra cleaning and tweeks. (2500+ hours)

A couple of hours to break in a loco so it runs smoother is not going to drastically impact the life span of a loco but it will increase your enjoyment of the better running loco.

[James in FL]

Hi skipgear,

I'm not sure I understand what you "strongly disagree with" in my post.

"I will strongly disagree with the above statement. I have personal experience that proves a break in period improves performance."

Do we not say the same thing here?

"There is noticeable benefit to the drive mechanism as the gears mesh (lap) and any small burrs on the side rods, linkage, etc. will be polished (worn) off.
At the point that this occurs, this is what is perceived as "broken in" and the mechanism becomes "loose" or free.
There is a "point or time" when optimum performance is obtained.
When, exactly that is, depends on many factors.
Many locos perform smooth right out of the box, and will continue to do so, for many, many years.
Some will improve over longer run time."

I perceive us to be saying the same thing.
Perhaps you do not.

You state;
"A couple of hours to break in a loco so it runs smoother is not going to drastically impact the life span of a loco but it will increase your enjoyment of the better running loco."

It was not my intent to readers to state that lokies life "will be drastically impacted" by a few hours run time.
Simply to state that your "lokie will break in" (wear out) choice of words here, whether or not it is put "in service" or "running light". Other than a (life) cycle to failure.

We maybe in different camps with our personal experiences here.
I'm not sure we are.

Regardless,

If a lokie has a severe bind in the mechanism, it will never "work itself out".
However, if the bind is slight it "may" decrease or "work itself out" the more run hours it has. You may perceive this as "breaking in".

My point is...
This will, or will not, happen whether or not the lokie is
running light or running in service pulling a consist.

Break in (wear out) happens, running light, or working, the time (hours) that it occurs is moot.

Unless your lokie runs so much herkey jerkey (uncoupling, derailments, etc.) your last option maybe either dissection, or return.

"Break in, Wear out, (choice of words)" happens with run time.
Pulling a consist or not.

I prefer to run them (in service) right out of the box.

You may not.

Yes, they run better with some hours on them.

Those same hours are hours toward imminent failure.

Why not put them to work?

[DoubleDAZ]

Bachmann's instructions say:

"Like any fine piece of machinery, your precision engineered BACHMANN Trains will work best after a few hours of actual running time.  Do not run at full speed.  Frequent starts and stops and running at various speeds will assure you many years of trouble-free running."

Now, the way I read this is simple, no full speed or same speed runs for the first few hours.  They don't say anything about how many hours over what period of time or about running "light" or "in service".  Since it will be a fairly long time before I have a layout to run on, I plan to set up a test layout using the Empire Builder set, probably adding a crossover to make a figure eight to stress all parts equally.  My eventual layout will have an unattended running feature, so I wouldn't want too use that during the "break in" period.  A lot of people buy trains, especially train sets like the Empire Builder set for Christmas, set them up around the Christmas tree, and then let them run at the same speed for hours.  Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that, but if the directions say not to do that, then I won't. 

[skipgear]

My point was that "break-in" is not wearing out the loco as you continually rename it. Break-in is a process of allowing the parts to seat and bearing surfaces to polish as you run the loco with a light load. Just running the loco out of the box with a heavy load behind it is "wearing out" the loco.

I will probably get the apples and oranges response here because this is a pretty drastic comparison but here goes:

My other hobby is radio control cars and planes, both electric and nitro powered. If you do not properly break in the motors and mechanisms, especially in the cars, you will experience drastically shortened life span of the parts. A motor properly broken in will last for hours vs. minutes if you run it out of the box with no break in. A nitro motor, run without break in is often lucky to get past about the 5-6 tank before tossing a rod.  You can build a differential with brand new parts and destroy it in the first run if you don't break it in properly.

Break-in, in both hobbies, allows the bearing surfaces to self polish themselves and allows parts to adjust and allign to their new surroundings so to say. The side rods on a steam loco are photo etched and have a rough edge when new. Loading those rods will cause that rough edge to cut into the crank pins. Running it with low or no load will allow the parts to polish the rough edges without cutting into the parts. Think of the difference of running a hack saw across a piece of pipe with no pressure or adding force to cause the blade to cut. With no force, you will eventually dull the blade. Gears have minor milling marks on them, motor bushings don't always allign properly, parts have flashing.....there a plenty of good reasons to break in a loco properly. These are mass produced toys, not precision swiss watches. If it was assembled with the precison of a swiss watch, I would agree, break in is not needed.  When was the last time you saw a loco assembled with that kind of attention to detail. You are not wasting your time to properly break in a loco.

Loading a motor that is not properly broken in causes the brushes to arc. This arcing causes errosion of the commutator, especially at the edges, widening the gap between segments. The wider the gap, the more the brushes can bounce and wear.

Break in should be done with no or a very light load (1-2 cars). Running the loco with a full train behind it will accelerate the wear prematurely until the loco is properly broken in.

As another example of proper break in. My FVM Hiawatha was a little stiff when new. It wasn't side rods, it wasn't a hitch, it was just stiff. With a simple inspection, it turned out the bushings were being put in a very slight bind when in the frame. I replaced the bottom plate and set the loco off on the layout by itself at a moderate speed for about an hour or so. After that "break-in" time,  the loco freed up and was smooth as silk. I then took it apart to see what made it tick. Upon reassembly, the tight feel was back again. I had to go through another break-in period for the bushing to wear into a new set. At that, I decided it best not to take it apart again.

[James in FL]

Yep, apples to oranges.

Either way though, each of our methods serve us in the best way we perceive they do. That is why we choose them.

Opposing views from opposing camps is how information and opinions are shared. And bystanders (forumites) can digest this information and see for themselves what may, or may not, work best for them, in their own applications.

I'm going to let it go at that.

To get back "on track" to the OP's original post about derailments...

To the OP...

In some situations this has worked for me....
First, gauge your pony truck wheels properly. (Most important).
Get a ⅛ oz. split shot (lead), available in most sporting goods (fishing) sections of any "Wally world", "K-mart" etc. and hammer it flat (paper thin) like a big coin.. Fold it in half, and then again. Hammer it flat again. Continue this until you have a strip of lead.
As the lead grows longer, fold it over until you have a piece about 3/16ths W x ¾ L rectangle.
Superglue it to the top of the pony truck, paint it black
Make sure this weight does not bind or foul the movement and function of the truck.
Flatten and/or trim as necessary.
It's been a long time since I have had any of mine apart. It maybe possible to add lead to the smokestack (inside).
If you have the need...IIRC... there may be several places in the boiler shell, forward, where lead can be added.
Again, I will add, my "Northern's" have not required any modifications, other then wheel gauge adjustment (pony, driver, and trailing truck). B'mann likes to gauge them too tight IMO.

Try it for yourself.

To me, problem solving in this hobby forces you to "tinker"
Model railroading is a "tinkers" hobby.

Good luck

[ericw95]

[ I assume you're saying I should do that for a few hours each day until I get around 10 hours of running in.  Is that correct?  Can I vary the speed every 10 minutes or so or does it have to be more often than that?

that's what i did, the two hours recommended was no where near enough and i still saw major improvements up until about the ten hour mark.