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Passenger Cars

Started by Gary Yemm, September 24, 2012, 10:12:35 AM

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Gary Yemm


Hi Guys

Could someone tell me on a 1970s main line passenger train how many passenger cars would be pulled behind the loco on a normal day to day service.

  Kind Regards Gary yemm

Ken S.

It depends on the area the train is serving. Some trains were still multiple E units with long trains while other trains were a GP7 or GP9 (possibly an E unit or RS-3) hauling a short train. Some areas still had RDCs in service on trains. Commuter trains in parts of New Jersey and Chicago were fitted to run in either direction without turning the entire train. The Chicago cars are easy to find while the New Jersey cars (and locos) are long out of production.

Desertdweller

Another thing to consider is the type of passenger cars used.  Bi-levels carry almost twice the passenger load of single-level cars.  So trains of these were generally shorter.

Examples of intercity bi-level cars would be C&NW bi-level intercity cars; Santa Fe El Capitan cars; and AMTRAK Superliner cars.

Think of the services your trains would offer, and select cars that would provide those services to your passengers, in addition to the basic (coach) cars.

Les

Gary Yemm

 
  Hi Guys

  Thanks for the info and pointing me in the right direction.


  Kind Regards Gary Yemm

blwfish

1970s also means at least two very different things, namely pre-Amtrak and Amtrak.  For the most part, after Amtrak formed, most of the trains were still relatively long, as only the relatively successful (least unsuccessful?) routes survived. The few independents - such as the Southern Crescent - also were relatively long. From memory I remember the mid-1970s Crescent being at least 8+ cars, long enough to be "a real passenger train." So were the primary Amtrak routes.

Pre-Amtrak, there were a considerable number of "stubs" running as pale ghosts of their predecessors. Some of the once-great trains were sometimes running as a single car with a GP-9, particularly some sections. For example, the C&O's flagship, the George Washington, had once rated two sections across the whole railroad, and even after WWII some of those were 18 or even 20 cars. By 1971 but still pre-Amtrak, the George ran west to east in a single section of at least 3 cars and usually a bit more. When it split into the Washington and Newport News sections at Charlottesville, VA, the Newport News section went on as a single car with a GP. Other sections ran similarly, if they had not yet been discontinued. All of these "runts" were discontinued by Amtrak. The situation was similar on other railroads pre-Amtrak, although I don't know the details.

Ken S.

And if going for Amtrak, don't be afraid to have cars from outside your prototype area appear. If modeling the west, Penn Central, C&O, and SCL cars would be mixed into consists while on the east you'd have UP, GN, NP, ATSF, BN, MILW (in UP colors), Mopac, and SP cars mixed into the consists.

BaltoOhioRRfan

To add on to Ken, in one of my books I remember seeing a picture with an Amtrak and B&O Engines on the head of a 5 car train most of which were different roads.
Emily C.
BaltoOhioRRFan
B&O - America's #1 Railroad.

My Collection on FB - https://www.facebook.com/EmilysModelRailroad
My Collection on YouTube = https://www.youtube.com/user/BORRF

rogertra

Quote from: Gary Yemm on September 24, 2012, 10:12:35 AM

Hi Guys

Could someone tell me on a 1970s main line passenger train how many passenger cars would be pulled behind the loco on a normal day to day service.

  Kind Regards Gary yemm

Isn't this a bit like asking "How long is a piece of string?"?

I'd suggest you look a photos of your favourite prototype(s).  If you don't own or can't afford books, which can get expensive, then a trip to your local library will do the trick.

Photos are almost always better than the generic (although sometimes helpful) answers you will get on this forum.


Doneldon

Quote from: Desertdweller on September 24, 2012, 12:56:40 PM
Bi-levels carry almost twice the passenger load of single-level cars.  So trains of these were generally shorter.

Examples of intercity bi-level cars would be C&NW bi-level intercity cars; Santa Fe El Capitan cars; and AMTRAK Superliner cars.

Les-

You have to separate intercity cars from commuter cars. Many railroads, the C&NW being just one excellent example, ran bi-level cars with huge capacities though not double those of single level cars. Intercity trains like the Santa Fe Cap were not bilevel; they were high level. The difference is that passengers were on the upper level only except for access to the Kachina Room coffee shop on the lower level of the lounge car. All of the other cars were designed with lower levels which carried power equipment for lights, heat and air conditioning; baggage; bathrooms; and, in the case of the diner, the kitchen and food storage. The high level Santa Fe coaches did have large capacities, up to 80 passengers, but that was because the passenger level had no space-eating bathrooms.

The current high level cars on Amtrak, both chair cars and sleepers, do have passengers on their lower levels; however, this is very limited because the lower levels still include power generation equipment, bathrooms and baggage space.

Turning to the IP's question, the length of passenger trains was/is a function of anticipated passenger load. It's expensive to haul empty cars around and to do maintenance on them if they aren't generating any revenue. Thus, trains were/are consistently longer in the summer and around holidays, especially the Christmas-New Years time. They were/are also somewhat longer when their runs start on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays, because more people start and end vacations on those days. (Business travelers aren't much of a factor on intercity trains anymore.) To return to the AT&SF El Capitan as an example, by the 1960s the Cap ran as a physical part of the Super Chief; both trains were numbered 17/18. Although they were all part of the same long train, they had separate diners and lounges, and the Super had dome cars which, of course, the Cap didn't need since it was all high level.

In the summer and at the end of the year, the Cap ran as a separate section (train) on the same schedule as the Super. As a long-distance train, the Cap often ran with empty or near empty cars during the busy season. The reason is that railroads just don't have all kinds of expensive extra cars sitting around. A train leaving Chicago on a Tuesday or Wednesday might have only 75 - 80% of its seats filled (middle of the week) but it would be loaded returning from Los Angeles on Friday or Saturday. The westbound train would drag the equivalent of an empty chair car or two to LA for the large numbers of eastbound passengers on the return trip.

The details of how different railroads and different trains ran and were staged differ depending on the length of run and equipment availability but all were guided by anticipated passenger loads.

The principle applies to some degree to commuter service as well. Rush hour trains are generally longer than midday or evening trains. There are exceptions to this of course, especially when one end of the run (most likely the downtown end) lacks space to mass cars for the outbound afternoon rush. In that case, non-rush hour trains may remain long all day so the capacity will be shuttling into downtown for the rush.
                                                                                                                                                                  -- D

jward

typical amtrak consists through pittsburgh about 1980 (when i started keeping records) would have been 10-12 heritage cars on the broadway limited (ny to chicago) and 2 or 3 amfleet cars on the pennsylvanian (pgh to ny).....  motive power was f40phs, 2 on the broadway, and 1 on the pennsylvanian.     back the date up a couple of years and amtrak e8s powered everything.
Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA

ripvanwnkl

Quote from: Ken S. on September 24, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
And if going for Amtrak, don't be afraid to have cars from outside your prototype area appear. If modeling the west, Penn Central, C&O, and SCL cars would be mixed into consists while on the east you'd have UP, GN, NP, ATSF, BN, MILW (in UP colors), Mopac, and SP cars mixed into the consists.

Ken, just to clarify, are east and west passenger car consists switched in your message? 

Thanks,
Dave
USAF (Retired)

Ken S.

Quote from: ripvanwnkl on September 25, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ken S. on September 24, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
And if going for Amtrak, don't be afraid to have cars from outside your prototype area appear. If modeling the west, Penn Central, C&O, and SCL cars would be mixed into consists while on the east you'd have UP, GN, NP, ATSF, BN, MILW (in UP colors), Mopac, and SP cars mixed into the consists.

Ken, just to clarify, are east and west passenger car consists switched in your message? 

Thanks,

I'm referring to Amtrak Rainbow Era consists.

BaltoOhioRRfan

Quote from: Ken S. on September 25, 2012, 10:13:05 AM
Quote from: ripvanwnkl on September 25, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ken S. on September 24, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
And if going for Amtrak, don't be afraid to have cars from outside your prototype area appear. If modeling the west, Penn Central, C&O, and SCL cars would be mixed into consists while on the east you'd have UP, GN, NP, ATSF, BN, MILW (in UP colors), Mopac, and SP cars mixed into the consists.

Ken, just to clarify, are east and west passenger car consists switched in your message? 

Thanks,

I'm referring to Amtrak Rainbow Era consists.

Ken, hes talking about the Road names, you put Penn Central, C&O and SCL on the west coast and UP ATSF etc on the East Coast......

and yes Ripvan he switched em by accident.
Emily C.
BaltoOhioRRFan
B&O - America's #1 Railroad.

My Collection on FB - https://www.facebook.com/EmilysModelRailroad
My Collection on YouTube = https://www.youtube.com/user/BORRF

Desertdweller

A few more things to consider here.

The AT&SF Super Chief was a first-class only train.  The AT&SF El Cap was a coach-class only train.  When they operated as a single train, the two were not combined.  Their consists were instead coupled together as two individual sets of cars.  The El Cap was all high-level, the Super Chief was all conventional level cars.  For this reason, each train carried its own diner and lounge.

The C&NW had a separate pool of bi-level long distance cars that operated apart from their bi-level commuter cars, although the two groups looked much the same externally.
Some conventional height cars were modified with tall false roofs to match the height of the bi-level cars.

The Milwaukee Road and the CB&Q had bi-level commuter cars that were sometimes used in intercity operations in times of extreme demand.

Eastern-road cars did show up in the West, and western-road cars did show up in the East.  But tall western cars, like hi-levels and dome cars, could not be operated in the East because of height clearances.  The few dome cars that were used in the East were specially constructed with low-clearance domes.

The initial months of AMTRAK would be a great time to model for people who like to mix up a lot of color schemes.  AMTRAK, although they carefully chose what cars they wanted to keep (they were accepted in partial payment from railroads participating in AMTRAK) initially had to operate with whatever was available, including old heavyweight cars.  It was well over a year before these were sorted out and the keepers overhauled and painted.
Same for the locomotives.  A few got a slap-dash paint job for initial publicity photos.
Many were leased from the railroads until AMTRAK could get their own fleet up and running.  AMTRAK wound up no road Diesels older than E-8's, but at start-up had leased many older units.

There are several good books on the market that cover this period.  I suggest "Journey to AMTRAK" by Kalmbach for starters.

Les

Ken S.

Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on September 25, 2012, 10:25:03 AM
Quote from: Ken S. on September 25, 2012, 10:13:05 AM
Quote from: ripvanwnkl on September 25, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ken S. on September 24, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
And if going for Amtrak, don't be afraid to have cars from outside your prototype area appear. If modeling the west, Penn Central, C&O, and SCL cars would be mixed into consists while on the east you'd have UP, GN, NP, ATSF, BN, MILW (in UP colors), Mopac, and SP cars mixed into the consists.

Ken, just to clarify, are east and west passenger car consists switched in your message? 

Thanks,

I'm referring to Amtrak Rainbow Era consists.

Ken, hes talking about the Road names, you put Penn Central, C&O and SCL on the west coast and UP ATSF etc on the East Coast......

and yes Ripvan he switched em by accident.

I gave examples of how Amtrak mixed up which railroad's cars went where. Many UP sleepers found their way to Sunnyside Yard during the Rainbow Era.

Like this JW Riley with a B&O E leading UP cars.