Length of locomotive on turntable.

[rogertra]

Not all table's needed to be balanced.  That's just the older, smaller ones that had one central pivot.  Like manual tables.  The outer wheels on the bridge were provided just for safety/

Modern tables were built more like bridges and were supported by wheels on the ends of the 'table bridge.

These 'tables were rotated using a pneumatic engine powered by the the brake line on the locomotive, as were many balanced 'tables.   

It's obvious in the photo of the 4-8-4 posted earlier in this thread that this engine is not on a balanced 'table.

[Doneldon]

Roger-

Whether all or some, new or old turntables needed to be balanced isn't the point. The point is that a 45' loco on a 40' poses the same problem as a 125 loco on a 120' table: the overhang could hit obstructions. Or, to quote an old book and movie title, Three into Two Won't Go. And, by the way, the 4-8-4 you mentioned is actually a Berk.

Roger, I'm not arguing with you, but I am messing with you. You tend to come down very hard, especially on newbies, when they get a detail mixed up (like calling a Berk a 4-8-4 or adding an incorrect apostrophe to make a plural [table's]) or ask what you seem to think is a bad question or ask a question without digging the answer out of Google themselves. It isn't fun to read your responses and I expect it's even less fun to be the recipient. So this was a friendly taste of your own medicine.

You have an excellent fund of information and an obviously experienced modeler's hand. But I fear that at least some of your expertise is wasted when you put down someone who is sincerely asking a question. Sure, they could often dig the answer up themselves, but maybe they lack the confidence to trust that they have a quality answer (the internet is full of crappy ones) or maybe they are just using this board for what it was intended -- helping modelers get some of the information they can no longer find at an extinct LHS. I would hate to see you stop answering questions because your information tends to be very good, but I'd also like to see you hold back if you're going to be unable to respond without a put-down or some sarcasm.

A word to the wise from a friend.
                                                    -- D

[WoundedBear]

What's funny is..........I don't find anything at all offensive about Roger's posts or personality.

And a word to the wise for you Doneldon.......next time you are missing Jim Banner....think about this thread.

Roger's posts are far better than some.......like Rich's posts and his never ending stream of "buy a multimeter......learn how to search.....and save it in your favorites"

Without starting a cross border incident, let's just say Americans and Canadians sometimes communicate differently.........and more often than not the American seems to get offended for some reason. Most of it I find comes from a mindset of "If it didn't happen in the USA, it ain't worth knowing about". Example being, what is the longest/highest steel trestle railroad trestle in the world? That discussion comes up a lot. Most people answer the Tulip Trestle in Indiana I think it is,or one in Pennsylvania.....then wind up amazed to find out it's actually located in Canada.

You should read the editorial in Westlake Publications' Logging, Mining and Industrial Annual 2013. It's a half page spread where the Editor basically admonishes most American manufacturers and hobbyists and apologizes for the poor image they portray of America to the rest of the world.

I'll shut up now.

Roger....you just carry on being who you are.

Sid

[rogertra]

I've noticed in previous posts of mine that when Donald joins the discussion, after a post or two he tends to focus on minor typos rather than the topic in hand.  This happened during our recent discussion regarding P-51 Mustangs Vs the Spitfire.

As for spelling and grammar, yes I make minor typos, so what?  This is not an English exam.  Does it really make any difference that I typed 4-8-4 instead of 2-8-4?  No! The point being made was that it was a very large engine squeezed on a turntable that was barely long enough for its wheelbase.  That was the point, not whether it was a 2-8-4 or a 4-8-4.  I could care less what it was, it was just big.   Anyway, there are many, many people on this board with terrible spelling and grammar, do I see you mentioning that on their posts?  No.

We are discussing the number of turntables with obstructions around them.  Which happens with a very, very small minority of turntables in North America as any easily removable obstructions would be removed anyway.  In the 2-8-4 photo, the safety handrails are obviously NOT an obstruction.  :-)   I have visited dozens of roundhouse in my day and I've yet to either see one in real life or to see photos of one printed with obstructions within five or six feet of the end of the bridge.

My writing style is, like my speaking style, blunt and to the point.  I do not sugarcoat.  That is disingenuous.

As for newbies.  For obvious newbies I will provide all the help they ask for.  I do not however, suffer fools gladly.  In my previous job I trained high school students in technical theatre, many of whom have gone on to professional careers in theatre and the performing arts and who keep in touch on Facebook or who I sometimes meet when they are touring with bands, dance companies and theatre companies that come into town.  I taught them using the same style I use here.  Seems to have not done them any harm.    

Google.  Yes, people who ask questions without first doing at least some of the work themselves do annoy me.  Google first and then ask, to ask without doing some foot work yourself is just plain lazy.

[electrical whiz kid]

Roger;
Perhaps it is truely said that some people seem to have way too much time on their hands...
Rich C.

[Pacific Northern]

Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif

[rogertra]

Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif

Is that at Field BC?

[J3a-614]

Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society:

Handley, W.Va.:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1271.jpg

This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford musuem; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Aleghany, Va.:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1388.jpg

Same engine, same location and time (September 1950)--and you can just make out where that road is to the left of the locomotive.  It's also worth noting that the track passing near the turntable doesn't look too far away, either:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg

This photo clearly shows that road, visible behind the tender of 1610 in 1947:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg

How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night, and find that coupler swinging toward your right front fender?

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1392.jpg

Have fun.

[rogertra]

Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society:

Handley, W.Va.:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1271.jpg

This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford musuem; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Aleghany, Va.:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1388.jpg

Same engine, same location and time (September 1950)--and you can just make out where that road is to the left of the locomotive.  It's also worth noting that the track passing near the turntable doesn't look too far away, either:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg

This photo clearly shows that road, visible behind the tender of 1610 in 1947:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg

How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night, and find that coupler swinging toward your right front fender?

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1392.jpg

Have fun.

I'm sorry but I don't see what point you are making.  I do not see a "road" in any of these photos.  All I see is a dirt and or cinder pathway that provides assess for railroaders around the perimeter of the turntable pit.  A common practice everywhere.  Where is this "road"?  By "road", I'm assuming you mean a public road and there isn't one of those anywhere in the photos.  Nearest public road was the other side of the main track, as can clearly be seen in Google Earth.

Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse  was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below.  As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......"  Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.


http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg

[Jerrys HO]

rogertra

I was thinking he was talking about the track next to the turntable,whether it was a siding or main line. It was in the third link posted.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg

I could be wrong...

Jerry

[rogertra]

rogertra

I was thinking he was talking about the track next to the turntable,whether it was a siding or main line. It was in the third link posted.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg

I could be wrong...

Jerry

I'm not sure, he did say "road" not "track".  However, if it was close to  track, the railroad would obviously leave enough clearance for a man to be standing at the choke point when both the track next to the turntable and a turning locomotive were at the same place.  You can tell from the photo I posted that there is ample clearance all around the turntable bridge and the pit.

[Len]

Roger,

I believe he was talking about the dirt road to the right of the building in the photo you link to: http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg

It comes by the building, then about half way around the turntable pit.

Len

[J3a-614]

The road is at Alleghany (spelled with an "a" at this location if Virginia)--not at Handley, W.Va.

It's just visible running in front of the house or other structure that's behind 1610's tender.  

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg

Been to both places, and driven on that road at Alleghany, too!

Interesting thing about Alleghany--just west of A Cabin (interlocking tower, still standing up that road as far as I know--this would be to the left, well out of the photo), the tracks enter a cut as they approach the twin tunnels that continue on into West Virginia (the border is at the top of the ridge there), and partway through this cut, you can seen where a trickle of water comes down the side of the cut from a spring just above.  This water happens to fall right at the crest of the grade, and as a result, the water flows both east and west through the road's drainage ditches at this point--the eastward trench running to a stream just below the railroad, and the westward trench running through the tunnel.  What's most interesting is that this also happens to be the eastern continental divide; the water going east eventually winds up in the Atlantic Ocean, and the water going west will end up joining the Grrenbriar River, the New River, the Ohio River, and the Mississippi to end in the Gulf of Mexico.

I also had the chance to be in the yardmaster's tower in Handley back in the 1970s, and witnessed and interesting a couple of interesting incidents there, both with the same train.

As is common with railroads in coal country, trains are often so long they are made up on two tracks, sometimes more.  This means the whole train gets assembled just before departure.  Anyway, I'm watching this long, long cut of cars being pulled out by five diesels, and then I start seeing this cut coming back in for the rear half of the train.  On the radio, the yardmaster and I can hear the brakeman calling out the distance for the engineer:  "Fifteen cars, Jack. . . . . . . .ten cars, Jack. . . . . . . .five cars, Jack. . . . . . . .three cars, Jack. . . . . .two cars, Jack. . . . . ONE CAR, JACK!!"

WHAM!!!!!  Clouds of black coal dust rose from the suddenly stopped hoppers.

"Coupling made, Jack," came the voice of the disgusted sounding brakeman.

Later, as the train was pulling out, I noticed one empty car among what must have been 200 loads.  I pointed this out to the yardmaster, and he radioed the conductor in the caboose.  The conductor responded back that he didn't have the car number in his list of waybills.  "That idiot yard crew," said the conductor, "I'm not stopping to cut out that one car.  We'll just haul it all the way to Newport News!"  

[J3a-614]

Looked up a couple of more photos from the C&OHS; this is at Alleghany again, and the H-8 (2-6-6-6) is headed for the turntable after pushing a train to here from Hinton.  The roof of A Cabin is visible above the locomotive; the station is behind us and to the right.  A pair of automobiles--one light, one dark--are parked on the road we've been talking about, behind the trucks.  The road crosses the railroad beyond A Cabin.   As far as I know, all railroad structures here are gone, except maybe A-Cabin and the signal bridge seen here.  Track layout is now just the two main tracks and a crossover here.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1390.jpg

This photo is taken at A Cabin, looking west; the road is in the foreground, and the spring is back in that cut.  The twin Allegheny tunnels are just out of sight.  The pusher, which has just been detached from the coal train it has helped from Hinton, is pushing the caboose ("cab" on the C&O) to a point where it can, through crossovers, eventually get behind it and then kick the thing back to its coal train, where it will be recoupled under the control of the conductor or the brakeman manning the hand brake.  After all that, the H-8 will proceed to the turntable to be turned for the 50-mile run back to Hinton.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1515.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1152.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1554.jpg

Station at Alleghany, looking east; turntable and A Cabin behind this location and to the left:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-3021.jpg

Westbound empty coal train passing A Cabin.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-5549.jpg

Turntable gone, lot of other things gone, but A Cabin and the toolsheds are still there in 1970:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-27266.jpg

The station was still around in 1970, but wouldn't be for long; A Cabin is visible in the distance.  The location of the turntable was between the station and A Cabin:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-27280.jpg

A Cabin in 1979:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-33005.jpg

Hope the Bach Man doesn't object to these links, but as they are from the C&OHS, they should be safe, no viruses. . .

[RAM]

I would have liked to have seen those 2-6-6-6s in action.  I was not around the C&O.  The Virginian had some but I did not have a way to railfan.  I could seen the yard engines working the coal docks and that was about it.  We were in dry dock for about 30 days and could watch the belt line 0-6-0s cross a bridge.  The only close railfanning I got to do was watch a N&W 0-8-0 switch.  great locomotive.  zI don't know what this has to do with the length of the turntable, I was just thinking back 60 years, I guess I got a right to do that.