Building A Tall Steel Viaduct

[Plow_Bender]

Hey there,
Kind of been out of the model railroading hobby for some time now.  I used to model in HO scale years back, but took up building custom 1:64 scale trucks, tractors, buildings, ETC back in 2011 and been doing it since.  I've also built a few 1:64 scale displays which are pretty much the same as model train layouts.  For those who are not familiar with 1:64 scale, it's basically the same size as S gauge.

Onto the main subject of this topic however, I've set myself a challenge of trying to build a tall steel viaduct.  The one I'm referring too is the Kinzua Bridge in Pennsylvania.  I've supplied a few photos of the bridge I'm referring to.






Now I'm planning to build the bridge in 1:64 scale (or S gauge if you prefer) and I'm trying to figure out if there is a kit available that I can maybe modify or if I have to build it all custom.  In real life the bridge measured 2,052' long and stood 301' high.  Now based on my math that means the bridge should be 348 3/4" long and 56 1/2" tall.  Based on that math, it will be a fair bit bigger than my workshop.

I've looked through several websites and can't seem to find any kits that would seem to work for what I'm doing.  I'm not sure if it's possible to modify an HO scale viaduct or an O gauge one.  About the closest thing I can find in terms of viaduct kits is from stevesdepot.com.  I've also searched around online to see if there's maybe evergreen that might have the same patent maybe (not sure if that's the right word?) as the bridge?

So pretty much what I'm asking is does anyone out there know where I can find a kit to build the viaduct that would still make it fit in with 1:64 scale or do I need to completely build it all from scratch?  Personally I don't think anyone has ever attempted structures of this size in model railroading, so it has me a bit nervous of trying it myself.  Any help or advice would be very much appreciated.

-Rusty

[the Bach-man]

Dear PB,
Try this:
http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=804
Have fun!
the Bach-man

[Plow_Bender]

Hey there,
Thanks for the reply.  I'll look into this and see what I find.

-Rusty

[Len]

When it comes to structures that large, most modelers use a bit of "selective compression" to make something that will fit in the available space. In the case of the Viaduct, that would generally be done by shortening the length and lowering the height. The angles of the bents would be the same regardless of scale.

The only kits that comes close to representing the Kinzua Viaduct are made by Micro-Engineering in N, HO, and HOn3 scales. The basic kit has enough parts for a 310' span in each of that scales. They also offer add-on kits and parts to extend the length. Instructions are included on how to change the bent heights for crossing a valley the way the Kinzua did.

A listing of the various kits can be seen at: http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=&manu=&item=&keywords=tall+steel+viaduct&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=300&Submit=Search They are also available elsewhere at varying prices, but no one else shows the complete list.

If you plan to build it in S-scale, you'll probably want to download the Plastruct styrene structural shapes catalog, as you'll have to scratch build it. The downloadable catalog can be found at: http://www.plastruct.com/Pages/Catalog.html A lot of scratch builders here on the Bachmann forums also use a lot of Evergreen styrene products, but they are more in the line of sheets, rods, and tubes, not so much structural shapes.

Len

[Plow_Bender]

Hey thanks.  I've actually seen plastruct before at my local hobby shop, but couldn't remember what it was called.  Just looked through the catalog and saw a few things that look like they'll work for what I'm doing.  Didn't really want to build the bridge from scratch because of how much time it would take, but I guess beggars can't be choosers.  I think I'll check to see what the hobby shop has next time I'm there and see about getting some materials to start building the towers first.  Thanks again for your help.

[Ken Clark]

   
   

   3 Books I would suggest to take a look at.

  MR Bridges and Trestles Will give you a basic idea of what to do.

  The other two books are on prototype bridge construction and look at the Canadian Pacific
Railway's high level bridge built at Lethbridge Alberta. It is 5327 Feet in length and stands 314 feet in height. Slightly bigger then the one you would like to model I know, but the design should  be similar. And NO! I would not want to model it in O at 110 feet in length and 6.5 feet in height.

   I am planning a much smaller steel trestle/viaduct myself and have been gathering numerous packs of Central Valley girders, presently have 3or4 O2IT drawers full of them.

The first one covers the history and construction of the bridge in photo's.
The second book is a reprint of the paper 295 presented to the Canadian Society of Civil Engineers in 1909 with plans of the various parts and layout. Also plans for the traveler used to construct bridge and a layout plan for the material yard.

    The books are published by the Lethbridge Historical Society
                                                  P.O. Box 974
                                                  Lethbridge, Alberta Canada
                                                  T1J 4A2

   Occasional Paper #46 CPR High Level Bridge  ISBN -13: 978-0-9780505-3-5  $10:00 Can

   Occasional Paper #48 The Lethbridge Viaduct ISBN -13: 0-9780505-6-6         $12:00 ? Can

    Ken Clark
      GWN

[jward]

such a massive bridge will not look right built to scale. cutting the height to about 12-18" and length to under 6 feet will still give the massive effect without completely overpowering everything else.

[Len]

Hey thanks.  I've actually seen plastruct before at my local hobby shop, but couldn't remember what it was called.  Just looked through the catalog and saw a few things that look like they'll work for what I'm doing.  Didn't really want to build the bridge from scratch because of how much time it would take, but I guess beggars can't be choosers.  I think I'll check to see what the hobby shop has next time I'm there and see about getting some materials to start building the towers first.  Thanks again for your help.

Rather than hand fit everything, you can make jigs for the bents and deck structures allowing a certain amount of "mass production". The jigs will hold everything in place for dry fitting before glue up, then keep it from moving after the glue is applied. I use the jigs from Black Bear Construction Co. http://www.blackbearcc.com/BBCC_Home.html for wooden trestles and bridges. You should be able to make something similar for "steel" bridge parts.

Len

[Skarloey Railway]

With that much repetition of parts I'd be tempted to look into either getting the components etched in brass or, the modern equivalent, 3d printed.

But as others have said, a degree of selective compression will be needed in S scale. Or you could model it in N scale, which will bring it down to a manageable 12' in length and 2' feet high. 

[Plow_Bender]

such a massive bridge will not look right built to scale. cutting the height to about 12-18" and length to under 6 feet will still give the massive effect without completely overpowering everything else.

True that scaling it down a bit would make the task of building it easier, but while it may work for some people, it won't for me.  I think keeping it to scale would be the best thing because when it's done, it would be quite a sight.  I've always been quite particular about the work I do and although I do see your point of scaling it down, I just feel like I'd be taking a shortcut on the build.

With that much repetition of parts I'd be tempted to look into either getting the components etched in brass or, the modern equivalent, 3d printed.

But as others have said, a degree of selective compression will be needed in S scale. Or you could model it in N scale, which will bring it down to a manageable 12' in length and 2' feet high. 

In terms of using brass, that's not really a bad idea and I actually thought about it before using styrene.  The only problem I'm seeing with it is soldering which I've never really considered myself to be any good at.  Gluing styrene feels like the better route for me, but I have to admit that if I had the skills, I would definitely build the bridge in brass.

Rusty, while I applaud your desire to build the model completely to-scale, I think that you should consider how useful or practical it might be when finished.  Another consideration is the fact that all of the towers appear to be similar except for their height - after you've built the first one or two, your main challenge will be to fight off the boredom. 
I'd love to see a scaled-down version in S scale, with a suitable looking steamer trundling across it pulling a period-appropriate train (freight or passenger), all set in lush Autumn forest scenery, as in the photos.  That, I think, would provide more of a total challenge for you and, when done, a more useful and, for viewers, interesting model.

True that building the towers would be a tedious job, but difficult things do take time.  My plan was to start out with the tallest towers (being towers 10 and 11) and then work to the second tallest (towers 12 and 9) and so on.  What I'm saying is that I'd be making pieces for 2 similar towers which would save some time.  I'm guessing the bridge would have towers of the exact same size on each end.  That's just my opinion though, so I really can't say that for sure.

My plans for now would be just to build the bridge itself, then maybe next year look into building a modular layout for it to sit on.  As I've said before, it's going to be a fair bit larger than my workshop, so I'll have to be able to dismantle everything especially for transporting it to shows and events.  And I agree with you, an autumn forest scenery would be the best look I think.  The main issue would be getting the locomotives and rolling stock.  As I have already found out with just the small railroad I have now on my 1:64 scale display, S gauge model trains are quite expensive.

[ACY]

The only mnufacturer I am familiar with in S scale is American Flyer (which is now under Lionel). The product offerings are generally very slim and what few things they make have a very high price tag. You may have better luck going with a 50's-60's era American flyer engine, as they should not command as high a price as a brand new model except in the case of perhaps a few things that may be hard to find.

[Plow_Bender]

If you ever get the chance, check out American Models.  Their basically the only S gauge manufacture out there that makes decent stuff.  I've actually bought S gauge track from them and seen their complete line of locomotives and rolling stock.  I'll go ahead and post a link.

http://americanmodels.com/

[Skarloey Railway]

If you're modelling the width of the valley you might want to do a costing on the number of trees you'll need.

[Len]

About the only 'S' equipment readily available anymore is by American Models, S-Helper (now part of MTH), and American Flyer by Lionel (a.k.a. Flyinel), and older American Flyer from shows, e-Bay, etc.

The modern stuff has DC can motors, so are fairly easy to convert to DCC if you want. Timko makes "drop in" DC can motors for old Flyer steam engines. I've converted several to DCC, putting the decoder, and relays triggered by Fn outputs, in the tender. The relays are needed to handle the current involved with turning the smoke unit and headlight on and off.

Len

[Plow_Bender]

If you're modelling the width of the valley you might want to do a costing on the number of trees you'll need.

If I build the bridge, it's going to be 19.31" at the widest point on the tallest tower.  If I were to build a table for it, I'd be shooting for 3' wide.  That would limit the number of trees I need.  However, there's no point in building a layout I don't even have a bridge for so it's not a big concern for me right now.  One thing at a time.

Back on the topic of building the bridge though guys, I'm a little stumped on the overall measurements of the bridge.  So far I know the length, height, and how wide the tallest tower was at the base, but I have no clue about some of the other measurements that I need.  Anyone know where I might go about finding measurements?