Regarding Brick and Mortar Shops

[Irbricksceo]

Hey there, so I just wanted to ask the opinion of you guys regarding the fate of The LHS. It seems that Model Trains just aren't as prevalent in them as the used to be.

Several Years ago I used to visit a small hobby shop nearby my hometown. They had some of all hobbies, and a rather nice Model Train area. As is to be expected, the prices were easily beaten by online retailers, nonetheless, I visited them many times. The people in that shop were always friendly and helpful, and among my favorite things, when ever you bought a locomotive, they would place it on a small track for you to see and test it right there. Unfortunately, they were forced to close five or six years ago.

I have on occasion been to a larger chain shop that has Trains, but the selection is less varied and the employees don't seem to have the same friendliness of the smaller shops I have visited. I do get that, as a much larger store, each employee not only has more on their plate but is much less involved with the shop that a few people who are basically the entirety of the business but  I have bought just two things there, I never really felt it was worth the price difference between them and the online retailers.

So let me ask you, Do you see Actual shops as  being something that will stick around? Do you mind going to larger, chain stores? Do you like the smaller shops better? Just wondering how the community feels.

[Doneldon]

Irbrick-

I don't find the larger chain stores at all useful for model railroading supplies. Most have no actual model railroading inventory though they do carry certain products, like paints and foamcore and such like. Hardware stores have glues, a few fasteners and brass shapes but no real hobby supplies. The Shack peddles some electronic components at premium prices. We are lucky to have two shops in the Twin Cities which carry a broad range of model railroading supplies but their prices are daunting. I do shop them from time to time to help them stay in business because I appreciate having them as a resource, but it's hard to imagine them being my major suppliers. Their prices are just too high, full MSRP on everything. One store has friendly, moderately informed staff; the other has very unfriendly staff who seem to feel that they are doing hobbyists such a big favor by being in business that they don't need to be friendly. Duluth has a fabulous, old-fashioned model train shop but it's two hours away which is too far to go except as an add-on to a trip for another main purpose. So ... I buy most things on the Inet.

I believe the dedicated hobby shop, or at least model train stores, will continue to dwindle as more people want to buy train sets and RTR items. This seems to me to be very different from what is happening with radio controlled vehicles. There are still a number of stores with good inventory and good attitudes. I think the electric planes and helos have made a real difference in that hobby but it might tail off if they don't come up with more innovations to keep people's interest. Then it will probably go the same way as model train shops.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 -- D

[jbrock27]

My LHS carries some model train supplies, but its niche is RC vehicles.  Why?  Probably bc the money is not there any more for him in model train items and he needs to be able to make a buck to cover his overhead.  There has been a change going on with regard to "model railroading" over the years.  The facts as I see them, is that our interest group has been shrinking, not expanding.  I agree with the points made in Doc's  2nd paragraph, but don't know why he brings up Radio Shack in the 1st.  I do agree, many of their items are overpriced, but if one is a savvy shopper, one knows what is not a bargain and what is (like the clearance table or racks).  The place serves a purpose and can have items on hand that you might need or want right away, as opposed to having to wait for them in an order.  Doc, btw, where do you like to purchase LEDs from, if not Radio Shack?

With regard to shopping; I shop on-line for advice (here is one place) as well as for goods.  The advice at the LHS is not so good for trains; again bc it no longer is an area of concentration for the owner.  It is was it is, as they say.  I like the consumer protections offered when buying items on line, when going about it the right way.  Size of the operation does not influence me.  I don't like shopping at train shows for the reason that the consumer protections if the deal goes south, are often not there for you. On-line gives you the ability to easily comparison shop and find bargains bc the retailer does not have to increase the cost of an item to cover overhead expenses.

[rbryce1]

I am fortunate enough to live within several blocks of H&R Trains in Pinellas park, Fl, which is an extremely valuable resource for model railroading, in supplies, locomotives, controls, rolling stock, structures, track and especially advice.  They carry a very large amount of every scale train, from G scale down to U Scale, track, trains, buildings, scenery, and all.  Their delima is on line sales.  They must sell at a fairly high price to cover the overhead of the building, pay their taxes and compensate their employees.  I try hard to buy from them when I can, but sometimes the difference of $200-$300 for a locomotive really takes it's toll on my decision.  They are not on the same playing field as an on-line retailer or even Ebay, but they offer hands on experience and excellent customer service.

They do have a web site, but I think they really need to expand it far beyond what it is now to compete in the on-line market, both in size and pricing.  If a customer does not need the help of the experienced store personnel, only the items, they could sell more on line for a lower cost.  If I need to see the item, or try it out or have an exchange possibility, I expect to pay more for the service they provide.  The problem is, I have seen people go to their store, tie up a salesman for over an hour trying out several locomotives, finally selecting a locomotive and then start to negotiate a lower price as they are looking on line at better prices right in front of the salesman.  That is really crap in my opinion, but is happening, and that is one of the reasons I fear the brick and mortar stores are having such a hard time.

There is an old comparison, that selling at a lower price and selling more is more profitable than selling less at a higher price.  100 items at $20.00 is much better than selling 10 items at $30.00.  But that assumes you will actually sell more at the lower price to cover the cost of the discount.  That does not always hold true any more in our hobby.

They sponsor 2 train shows each year, but do not participate in other local train shows, which I personally feel is a disadvantage on their part.  Local train shows do draw large crowds, where you can sell at a lower price and also do the needed volume.  I hope they can keep things going.  I really would hate to see them go away.

[jward]

the problem for me is in getting supplies to build track. superdetailers and scratchbuilders will also have this problem.

most of what I've bought over the years has been from the local guy. most of my supplies for building track had to be special ordered and train werld isn't going to do that with you. so I tended to pay the higher prices for my locomotives and cars at a trusted hobby shop. if I special order something, and the shop actually ordered it for me, I spent my money there. those who said they placed the order but it never showed up, I stayed away from,

it has gotten to the point where there aren't very many good train shops around anymore. and if the choice is hobbytown usa or mail order, I now go with mail order. why be loyal to a chain which won't even try to get me what I need?

[Len]

One thing I'm noticing is the general, "We have everything!", hobby shops are slowly disappearing. The hobby shops that seem to do well are the ones that specialize, e.g., just RC, just plastic kits, just trains, etc. At least that seems to be what's happening in the area around Raleigh, NC where I live.

Len

[CNE Runner]

I think our somewhat stagnant economy has taken its toll on hobby shops as I remember them in my youth. The Internet offers a myriad of options; many at lower prices than is possible with a brick and mortar store. The Internet advantage will be somewhat blunted as more and more states elect to collect sales tax from on line transactions - but the disparity will remain due to the increased overhead associated with traditional shops.

As the cost of living increases, and taxes take a larger and larger 'bite' out of ones disposable income, such extraneous things (like hobbies) will be drastically effected. A similar case in point: With the less expensive automobiles costing ~ $15,000+, families are keeping their present vehicles longer (averaging 11 years). The automobile industry has resorted to leasing as a mechanism for moving inventory. [Have you noticed that the automobile commercials tout the LEASE price and not the actual price (or monthly payment)?]

So, where does this leave the LHS? First I would caution one to avoid investing in that industry as things are likely to get worse. [How many LHS' have you seen 'go under'?] Secondly, tomorrow's model railroader will be more price conscience than they are today. This will result in smaller layouts and less 'stock'. Added to the economic pressures is the fact that housing (in the U.s.) is getting smaller...not larger. This will translate in much smaller layouts to fit withing the available square footage (many homes are currently being built without attics nor basements). The model railroader of the future will have to be very creative in order to carry on with their hobby. It would seem that we would be best served by taking a page from our European brothers and engage in mini layouts. [OK, U.K. members - jump in here.]

In summary, there will always be a number of 'brick and mortar' hobby shops - just as there will always be large, multi-level, layouts (although their numbers will most likely diminish). Internet vendors will most likely increase (particularly the larger ones) as that seems to be the way the market is heading. We may see a re-insurgence of train shows. I do not, however, see the end of the hobby; as we are blessed with a great many very clever members. Do yourself a favor and purchase a copy of Railway Modeller to see how our UK friends manage in very restricted living spaces...it can be done well. Also check out Carl Arendt's website for a veritable host of small layout ideas.

Regards to all,
Ray

[jbrock27]

Here is another thought on hobby shops to consider.  It is not uncommon for a shop to stock certain items but not others.  For example, the other day, someone posted a question between choosing between Atlas and Peco turnouts, bc this is what was available at their LHS (after a short time the entire thread was erased).

Therefore, unless one shops outside of the realm of their LHS, they are limiting their exposure to only what their LHS carries.  There may be better products or options out there, that if they stuck with their LHS only, they would never learn about.  They may end up, for example, only knowing about KATO track and BLI locos available to them and may never learn about Bachmann EZ track, Bachmann Spectrum line, KADEE couplers, etc, etc.

With regard to providing service; I think that yes, it is important, but if you provide a quality, durable product, service becomes less important.  That is not to say that service never needs to be there for you, bc after all (blank) happens, but the bottom line has always been providing the best product, for the best price.  I don't ever see a change to that business philosophy.  When am in the process of buying something, my consideration for service falls well below my thoughts for quality and durability bc if I am buying for service, it seems to me I am already conceding something is not going to work right and I will be needing service.   

[James in FL]

Along with rbryce1, my LHS is also H&R Trains, about 8 miles from me.
None of us like to see a shop, dear to our hobby, go under.

With regard to providing service; I think that yes, it is important, but if you provide a quality, durable product, service becomes less important.  That is not to say that service never needs to be there for you, bc after all (blank) happens, but the bottom line has always been providing the best product, for the best price.  I don't ever see a change to that business philosophy.  When am in the process of buying something, my consideration for service falls well below my thoughts for quality and durability bc if I am buying for service, it seems to me I am already conceding something is not going to work right and I will be needing service.  

And there's the rub.

H&R is full service sales and repair/install. I do not however, take advantage of their excellent service and repairs department.
For service, it never leaves the house. It's a no issue. I provide all the service.
I'm my own mechanic.
My hobby dollars are limited, I shop for price.
Some hobby dollars are spent at Michaels, hobby supplies, but not bought at my LHS.
My On-line spending beats my LHS spending at least 6:1.

H&R is still for sale.
http://www.hrtrains.com/goldenbusinessop.html

We will miss Don and Alice.
And wish them all the best in their retirement.

We also hope H&R is around for at least another 38 years.
You don't see shops like theirs anymore.

[GG1onFordsDTandI]

I like to help my "neighbors" keep food on the table, and cloths on their backs .
But $100's of dollars saved, well I aint rich 
"Nuff" said?

[Stephen D. Richards]

James in FL,   I live in West Virgina and my LHS is H & R Trains!  Met Don and Alice in 2006 while on active duty with the military.  What a great place!  They will be greatly missed when they retire and almost considered (actually did consider it) making an offer on the store just to make sure it stays open.  Alas, too much other not able to give up.  Feels like I go home every time I walk in the place.  It's a great way to run a railroad!  Stephen D. Richards

[electrical whiz kid]

Like the rest of us, I have sadly seen LHS dwindle, but it is partly their fault for a variety of reasons














Like the rest of us, I have seen the local hobby shops dwindle down.  My thought, for what is worth, is that eventually, the brick and mortar shops will disappear, except for a few holdouts that will be doing business, but mostly on-line orders; but what will morph out of this whole is the "cottage shop".   I remember a shop like that in Columbia, Ct, just outside of Willimantic, and to the best of my knowledge, he did just fine.  Now, he mostly dealt with model trains, and the shop was on his residential property.  If he didn't have it on hand, he could get it for you.  The Caboose Hobbies is another good example.   Armand has been dealing out of his house for like a hundred years!  These places can really be a great asset; both to the proprietor, and to the customer base.  I hope that, in this case, I am correct.
Rich C.