DCC with Sound possible for N "Jupiter" - 4-4-0 American Locomotive & Tender?

[trainstrainstrains]

 
I just bought a "Jupiter" - 4-4-0 American Locomotive & Tender + passenger car and Post car.
I would like sound for this, I don't really understand  DCC  very well so I have a number of questions:
Are battery powered locos a must for DCC or can it all run from track power?
I believe that to have sounds  one must have a decoder , a  sound module and a speaker correct?
If none of the above fit in  the loco or  tender and I suspect they don't, can one fit them in the passenger car?
Which would be the most adequate sound system? Which the cheapest?

[brokemoto]

DCC does send the signals through the track.

The motor in the B-mann eight wheeler takes up almost all of the space in the tender.   The gearing takes up almost all of the space in the locomotive.  If you wanted to use DCC for this, you would have to put the decoder and speaker both in another car. 

It is important, here to keep in mind Miranda's Maxim as explained by ke:  The poor performance of many N scale steam locomotives is almost always attributable to poor electrical contact.

The B-mann eight wheeler collects current only through the tender wheels.  The locomotive is electrically neutral.   You would need to make some minor modifications to the tender to isolate the motor.   I would keep the electrically live tender wheels.   Further, I would make the wheels in the passenger car that would contain the decoder and speaker live.   This would necessitate the running of wires, but the payoff would be better runnability as there would be better contact.

If you like nineteenth century railroading, you do have some alternatives.

Atlas sells an eight wheeler.  As in the B-mann, it is an 1860s to 1870s eight wheeler.  If you were to try to add sound and DCC to it, you would face the same obstacles in it that you would face with the B-mann.

Atlas sells a mogul.  It is an 1870s mogul.  The tender is empty, so you could put a decoder in it, or,  a speaker, if you can find one small enough.  You would do better to put the decoder and speaker in another car and connect it to the Atlas/Micro Ace mogul, as this one does suffer from poor electrical contact.

Athearn sells, and MDC sold an 1880s consolidated and mogul.   There are some who have managed to shoehorn both decoder and speaker into the thing.  If you go to Trainboard and search it, you will see what some have done.  The Athearn is basically a copy of the MDC, so if you find an MDC, you can buy it.  The Athearns do come with MT couplers, while it will be necessary to convert the MDCs.  MDC did supply a pair of knuckle couplers, but they do not function well. 

[TJ]

Here's a link which I use at times .

http://trainweb.org/nrmrc/dcc/conversions.html#bachmann  Go to Manufacturer index.

or follow link..http://www.trainbuddy.com/Reference/decoding%20Engines/N440.htm

TJ

[ACY]

Brokemoto gave some pretty good advice. Generally, with almost all old-time locomotives there is insufficient space to add DCC let alone sound as well. If you want DCC and sound you will have to permanently tether a passenger car to the locomotive where you can place the speaker and decoder. In my opinion you would be better off buying something like the Bachmann berkshire (2-8-4) that comes with DCC and sound or another locomotive that has a large tender with sufficient free space. Old-time locomotives do not lend themselves to DCC and sound because in most cases the motor is in the tender leaving no space whatsoever for any modifications such as adding sound without the aforementioned addition of a permanently attached passenger car and all the work that entails.

If you are just starting out and having DCC and sound is a priority,  then I suggest you switch to a larger scale such as HO or On30 where most types of locomotive are readily available with DCC and sound since there is much more space to work with than in N scale. With the current technology, only the larger n scale locomotives either long diesels/electrics or steam engines with long tenders allow for sufficient space for sound installation.

[trainstrainstrains]

But it is possible to place everything in a car right? and if it has metal wheels that can be fitted with electrical pikups no wires need go to the loco?

[brokemoto]

If you want the decoder to control the locomotive, you will need to run wires to the locomotive.  If you want to use DCC to control only the sound, but DC to control the locomotive, you should be allright, but you might want to check with someone who knows more about DCC than I do.  I do not use DCC, so I am not sure if there is any possible conflict between DC and DCC running through the same rails.

If you are going to operate the B-mann eight wheeler on a layout with turnouts, you must keep in mind that this thing does not like plastic frog switches.  It will stall on them at speeds less than forty-five SMPH.  You must use metal frog turnouts, which means that you must wire appropriately.

This is not a design flaw, mind you, it is simply a characteristic of small "footprint" power.  The latest versions of these things, those that come in a plastic box, are pretty good locomotives.  Some of the last cardboard box versions were also good.

[ACY]

But it is possible to place everything in a car right? and if it has metal wheels that can be fitted with electrical pikups no wires need go to the loco?

It is not advisable to do what you suggested because if the locomotive is analog (DC) and the decoder is obviously digital (DCC) then when you adjust the speed, the cuff rate would not correspond correctly. The sound decoder is going to draw a substantially higher amount of current than the actual locomotive so the locomotive could be moving at half speed but the sound decoder will not yet have sufficient amps to turn on. And then when it finally turns on the locomotive would be traveling very fast but with a chuff rate that does not correlate. Also operating an analog DC locomotive with a DCC system is generally a very bad idea, and operating a DCC decoder on DC would not allow you to control any of the sounds you went to such great lengths to install.

So for the above reasons, you pretty much have to wire the locomotive to the trailing passenger car. And as an added benefit you will have improved electrical pickup which will keep the engine from stalling on insulfrog turnouts.

One more thing to keep in mind is that obviously none of this is "plug and play." You would need to manually electrically isolate the motor and then soldier all the wires for the decoder into place into some sort of connector and then adapt a socket in the tender somehow (if you can even make room) to allow for the wires to run across from the passenger car. And then you would need to create some sort of baffle for the speaker inside the passenger car, and probably remove any interior if present as well as possibly modify the passenger car further to make room for everything.

[trainstrainstrains]

It was thoughtless of me not to figure out that the locomotive must be connected in order to be controlled by DCC, of course it must. It seems that what I  was hoping for is perhaps not such a good idea, It appears that many of you believe I would be better off buying something like the Bachmann Baldwin  4 6 0 with decoder if I want sound on a Steam early 20th century loco.

l so  much wanted this loco to have sound.

The  reasons  I got interested in DCC for N is that I saw in a video that very smooth gradual acceleration was possible with DCC, and I thought sound was only possible with DCC in N.   I don't for the foreseeable future want any crossovers or switches of any kind, just 1 loco on  a simple loop or circle and chuff sound. Which leads me to the next question. Are there N scale sound systems  that can work on DC? If so is the sound quality and chuff to speed synchronization  any good?

[ACY]

The Bachmann 4-6-0 does not have sound. The only steam locomotive currently available from Bachmann with sound is the Berkshire 2-8-4. If you want an affordable n scale steam locomotive with sound, that is your best choice. However if you are set on a 4-6-0, it is possible to add sound but it obviously is not plug and play and it is not something I would consider to be an easy task for a beginner but certainly not impossible. I don't see anywhere in this thread where someone reccomended the N scale Baldwin 4-6-0, but perhaps I am missing something. Generally if you want sound in n scale steam, you need a locomotive with a longer tender more akin to the Berkshire that Bachmann has with sound. Early steam locomotives have shorter tenders that are not long enough to allow space for a speaker and sound decoder.

You are aware that DCC and sound is also available in many other scales such as HO right? And one benefit of working with HO scale is that adding DCC and sound is often times plug and play which lends itself to beginning modelers.

[trainstrainstrains]

It is time for me to thank everyone who has in this thread  contributed to getting me on the right track, thank you all sincerely.
I see that here as always it is essential to be very clear and explicit in order to get the right help.  I have not been sufficiently so.
I have some experience with G which is my main interest. I run eight locomotives from my smallest a kitbash in 1/29 to my gigantic Aristocraft 2 8 8 2 mallet and many cars and enough track to go with this. I have sound in many of these, from various manufacturers. I am not interested in DCC for G scale which is why I understand so little about DCC.  I run everything with StationMaster and   Yard Master units for automation.
I definitely do not want any other track gauges.

In fact all I want in N is to run this tiny loco on a simple loop. I am rather fascinated with the idea of sound from such a tiny loco.

If I can do this without DCC even better.    I am not clumsy, I have installed sound on G scale, so if I know exactly what to do, what wires to solder and where,  I can probably do it . I like the idea of the speaker and sound electrical components on a separate car, I do not know if there are electrical pickups to pick up electricity directly from car wheels. I do not know if the sound modules for N can be tuned to make the chuff sound correct just from track voltage. I suppose that if someone makes a sound card  for DC  in N it must  be possible to tune the sound to the voltage.

If I manage all this with DC or if not possible with DCC are there micro connectors so that I can disconnect the car with sound from the loco?

[ACY]

The simple and quick solution is buy the Berkshire or another locomotive with sound and call it done. Keep in mind working with large scale is much easier than N scale because in N scale space is very limited and everything is obviously much smaller and requires a greater attention to detail. It is my opinion you will be much happier just buying a locomotive that already has DCC and sound than attempting to install sound in a 4-6-0 or an old-time passenger car. But that is just my opinion, ultimately you can do what you want.

[brokemoto]

Given your background and experience, it appears that you have choices.  Before doing anything, I would buy an optivisor or magnifying lamp, or both.  Some people like one or the other, some both.  I like magnifying lamps, I do not like the optivisor.

You seem to prefer the eight wheeler over anything else.  Thus, I would take the eight wheeler and isolate the motor.  I would then make both trucks live in the passenger car, connect it electrically to the locomotive's motor.  I would put the speaker and decoder in the passenger car.  Good electrical contact is of major import when using DCC.

If an alternative to the eight wheeler is acceptable, I would do any of the following.  I am listing them in the order that you might prefer, going on your statement that you would like sound from a small locomotive.

Go to Trainboard and learn what those who have managed to get sound into an Athearn/MDC mogul or consolidated have done.  Recall, these are 1880s locomotives, thus they are small, but larger than the eight wheeler.

Buy the B-mann ten-wheeler and add sound.  The B-mann ten wheeler appears to be a late 1890s/early 1900s prototype, although the USRA Standard tender that B-mann put onto it is a bit outsized.  Such a combination would be appropriate during transition era, as smaller steam tended to be the last scrapped, as they were doing grunge jobs that were more cheaply done by smaller power.   More than a few roads fitted outsized tenders from larger power to the older power to allow them to travel further between water and fuel stops.   Many roads dismantled more and more steam facilities as the transition progressed.   It was much cheaper to keep an old ten wheeler that had been rebuilt repeatedly on a local passenger train rather than retire it and have a hudson or 4-8-4 work that same train.   The latter two were expensive to operate and would be akin to using a commercial riding lawnmower on an urban rowhouse lawn.

Buy the Atlas mogul, improve the electrical contact, put a decoder and speaker into the tender. If both will not fit, put one into the tender and hardwire an electrically live car to it and put the other electrical device into it.

[trainstrainstrains]

As I mentioned I have  no experience with DCC but it appears DCC is a must for N sound. I have been  tonight and this morning reading a little about what DCC is and how it operates and I feel much better.

Stubbornly I am sticking to the original plan because I like this little locomotive .
So I am now considering a box car behind the tender for all electrical components. (More space than passenger car.)

I would much appreciate if someone could sketch or describe  the electrical pickup installation on an N box car to make both trucks live in the car. What parts are needed and how to install and wire them.

I would also appreciate recommendations for buying an  inexpensive simple  DCC command station, and what more I need for my simple DCC setup.  Do I need a DCC command booster for just one loco and one loop? I am considering a Digitrax SDN136PS Decoder.

I am a bit confused about brokemoto's recommendation of wiring the power from the extra power pickup on the passenger or  boxcar  to the motor. Does this not defeat the point of isolating  the motor? As I understand in DCC the throttle is controlled by the decoder in the loco. So should not the motor be  connected only to the decoder?
Or perhaps my confusion is because when  brokemoto writes "connect it electrically to the locomotive's motor." he refers to the decoder and not the car ?

[plas man]

here's a how to - but its silent , DCC all the same !!!

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tcsdcc.com%2FCustomer_Content%2FInstallation_Pictures%2FN_Scale%2FN_Search%2Fsearch.html&ei=ELpUVbPaLIOwUbb_gLAK&usg=AFQjCNH06CHre7mTWjxejnT2JzP_m764uA

play nice , I done mine - must do the loco to  combine old timer pickups next .

[ACY]

The trailing car must be electrically connected to the tender because the trailing car is housing the decoder. If you do not run wires across from the trailing car to the tender then there is no way your decoder will have any control of your locomotive which defeats the purpose of having a trailing car. You are utilizing the power from the track to supply power to the decoder which is housed in your trailing car but that doesn't mean you can't also use that to improve the performance of your locomotive. In N scale increasing the footprint of the locomotive makes a big difference in performance.

The reason why we both suggested using a passenger car is because many come with trucks that have live pick up. As far as using a boxcar, you will need to drill fine holes in the floor to run wires through. Generally in N scalemost metal wheel sets are insulated on one or both sides if I am not mistaken, unless they are specifically designed for use with a lighted passenger car or live tender. You might have to buy a set of passenger car trucks(with wheels) to facilitate making the boxcar have pick up.

You will not need a booster of any sort to run just one locomotive. A Bachmann EZ Command system would be more than adequate and would give you control of most sounds but no advanced CV programming capability but that is not really necessary. You can find EZ Command systems for pretty cheap, generally $50 or less.