Con-cor Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 n scale , Bachmann 2 8 8 4 n scale

[trainstrainstrains]

I understand the Con-cor  Rivarossi 2-8-8-2  n scale is no longer in production so I hope I am not infringing on Bachmann forum rules.  Would be nice to know how they  are different , how they are alike, specially in size and detailing , but also in other ways.

[brokemoto]

Bachmann is tolerant of the discussing of  products from other manufacturers on its forum.

That stated, on to the two locomotives in question.

The B-mann EM-1, the B&O 2-8-8-4 is a road specific locomotive.   Only the B&O ran a 2-8-8-4 that looked like this.  It is based on a prototype that Baldwin built for the Baltimore and Ohio in 1944 and 1945.   B&O had gone to the War Production Board in 1943 seeking more FT diesels for use as pushers in mountainous areas.  The WPB assigned these steam locomotives to the B&O instead.

Of the two, the 2-8-8-4 is the larger.  The prototype had sixty four inch drivers, which gave it a measure of speed.  The detailing on the B-mann model is excellent.   There are details that match the specific road numbers, even.  The locomotive is an excellent runner and puller.  The slow speed control even on DC is excellent.  It requires minimum starting voltage on DC, something not typical of a "smart decoder" equipped locomotive.  As you may have deduced, it comes with a  factory decoder.

B&O used these things as pushers and even as road power in mountainous areas and to haul heavy commodities, such as coal.  Funny, there are some Wm. Price movies and photographs that show EM-1s on #29, #30 and #31, which were mail and express trains.   I am sure that this use was rare, the railroad had to have pressed them into service because there was no Pacific, Mountain or even a Big Six available.  Still, their sixty four inch drivers gave them a modicum of speed, which meant that they likely did their stand-in duty well.

The B-mann EM-1 is an excellent model that I would recommend to anyone.  Look around the web to get the best prices.  Funny thing, there are no operating examples of this one left.  Athearn sold UP Challengers.   Kato sold an SP GS-4.   There is one Challenger and one GS-4 that still run.   More than one vendor has told me that the B-mann EM-1 has outsold both combined.  I have one EM-1.  I do not run much larger power, but as I am a B&O modeller, and, this one is road specific, I did buy one.   I much prefer Mikados, Consolidateds, Moguls, Pacifics, Atlantics and Eight Wheelers.

My EM-1 will go around a Kato UNITRAK thirteen and three quarter curve with no problem.   It looks pretty silly doing it, but it will go.  If I recall correctly, B-mann recommends a fifteen inch or better curve.  I have not tried anything sharper than a thirteen and three quarter curve.

The C-C/RR 2-8-8-2 is based on the Norfolk and Western Y-6.   The detail on these things is minimal, typical of 1970s/1980s, mostly cast-on.  It is nowhere near the level of that on the B-mann EM-1.   The RR comes from an era in N scale that is long passed.   Kato first raised the bar a few years back with its USRA heavy Mikado.  B-mann followed with it Baldwin "catalogue" Consolidated.  Those two are still the proverbial yardsticks against which all N scale steam is measured.  The RR is built using 1970s construction methods.  One side of the locomotive is electrically live, while the other is neutral.  The opposite side of the tender is live, while the other is electrically neutral.   Despite its drawbacks, most of these were pretty good runners and pullers.  The slow speed control was not too bad, especially considering what it was.   Even with the older, pathetic Rivarossi can motor, it was not bad.  

The REAL problem with these things is in the power chassis frame.  Even the recent editions (issued in the mid-1990s) were made from a Zinc based potmetal.  Over time, Zirmac decays.  It cracks, breaks and turns to powder.  Another problem that arises over time is expansion.  This results in the axle journals closing up and crimping on the axles.  The result of that is that the axles will not turn.   All of the older Rivarossi power chassis were made from Zirmac.  Some of the mid 1990s issues of the USRA heavy Mikado and Paciific had power chassis made from a different potmetal, but the 2-8-8-2s were made from Zirmac.  I have two of these things, an older issue and the last issue from the mid 1990s.  One power chassis cracked in three places while it was running, the other one seized.  When I took off the shell, it started to turn to powder in my hands.  What remained cracked in four places when I put it onto the workbench.   This thing will go around a nine and three quarter curve.  It does not like it, it looks really silly doing it, but it will go.  All the same, I would stay away from it.

A few years back, C-C offered to trade anyone who sent in a RR Y-6 and forty dollars a GS-4 in C-C's choice of roadname.  C-C stated that the condition of the locomotive did not matter, it could be broken and taken apart, it just had to be complete.  I never did get around to sending in mine.  Odds are that C-C would have sent me two in PRR.  The Pennsylvania never ran anything that remotely resembled a GS-4, but C-C did go through a period where it would hang any roadname on just about anything.  

Now, to throw two more into the mix.

B-mann sold a USRA 2-6-6-2.  The first issue of it had its problems.  I have one that has some real problems with the drivers' binding.   It never did run well.   B-mann has since corrected the problems and the newer issues are fine.  The detailing is very good on this one, but I do like the detailing on the EM-1 better.  

Life Like sold, and, Walthers has re-issued once, a USRA 2-8-8-2.   The LL issues of this one were anemic pullers, but the WKW issue is better.  They are good runners.  The detailing is pretty good,   better than the RR, but, certainly not up to the level of either B-mann mentioned in this post.

Mention in passing of the other articulateds

Athearn sells a UP Challenger.  It has sound.  I have seen them run on N-TRAK, they appear to run well, they look nice and the sound is pretty good.  I do not own one, so I can not state much about it.

RR manufactured a UP Challenger that C-C sold.  I had two, but sold them.  They ran allright, when they ran.  Their problem was electrical contact.  One driver set was live on one pole, the other on the corresponding.  This resulted in more than a few stalls.   Making the tender electrically live did help somewhat.   The detailing is typical of 1970s/1980s era N scale steam: minimal and mostly cast-on.

RR manufactured a Big Boy that C-C sold.  I only saw one or two ever run.  They appeared to run about as well as either the RR Challenger or Y-6.  Detailing, again, typical 1970s/1980s:  minimal and mostly cast-on.

Atlas sold a 2-8-8-2.  It was not quite up to what the modelling world anticipated.  If you do find one that runs, I would still stay away from it.

I might have left out one or two, but there you go.

[ACY]

The Bachmann 2-8-8-4 EM-1 is the best option if cost is a factor, but the Athearn 4-6-6-4 Challenger has all the bells and whistles literally haha. The Concor models unfortunately have outdated technology and run accordingly. If given the choice I would opt for the Bachmann EM-1, however if you prefer a 2-8-8-2, the Walthers model is pretty good, the newer runs had DCC.

[trainstrainstrains]

Brokemoto .That was extremely interesting and very informative, thank you ,  and thank you ACY.
Now I feel a little bit worse for having missed a brand new EM 1, on ebay . Winning bid was $151.06 today at 3pm. My bid $151.51 was placed 3 seconds before ending time and did not win. Explanation which I'm sure is correct  "my bid was too low due to ebay's increment system. If only I would have bid $153!
No other new or second hand  EM 1s for nearly that low a price in sight just now.
Must ask you about some other models,  I hope you don't mind, but if you do mind I quite understand. Maybe just  short comments would be very helpful if you don't feel like writing much.
From Bachmann: Southern 0 6 0, Santa Fe Northern 4 8 4, Usra Light 2 10 2, Baldwin 4 6 0,
From KATO: C58 2010, C 57 4 6 2
From Atlas: 40000734  4 4 0, 0 8 0,  4 6 2.
Micro Ace A9537,
Life-Like 2 8 8 2.
Rolling stock from Arnold Rapido Trains, Atlas Trains.

Thanks.

[spookshow]

Reviews of most of the locomotives you mention can be found here -

http://www.spookshow.net/locos.html

Cheers,
-Mark

[brokemoto]

Yes, Spookshow's website......an excellent resource for those with questions about the various products available.   I can never thank him enough for all of the work and money that he put into that.  I consult it often and recommend that anyone who wants to know about more than a few N scale products do the same.  You will find everything from the beginning up to current products.   Usually, I agree with his assessments, but not always.   This is not unexpected and will never keep me from consulting or recommending his website.

Still, I will give you my views of the locomotives about which you have asked:

B-mann USRA 0-6-0.  This has appeared, in various forms, over the years.   I would stay away from the older issues of it.   The most recent issue comes in a plastic box.  It has an upgraded power chassis.  Its one drawback is the design of the one live truck on the tender.   It creates quite a bit of drag on the locomotive.  If you will buy a SPECTRUM USRA short or the slopeback tender, it is not difficult to swap out the stock tender for the SPECTRUM,  If you will go to Spookshow's website, there is a simple tutorial on how to do this.  Your reward will be a locomotive that runs well and pulls acceptably, considering its small size.   Others have switched around the drivers to get more pulling power out of it.  Perhaps Tony can give you the link that show how he did it.  He did a few things to this to render a very nice model of a B&O USRA 0-6-0.

Santa Fe 4-8-4.  This one has appeared, over the years in various forms.   I have only one older one, with the one side live tender.  It runs horribly.   There have been complaints about the subsequent issues that had only the locomotive's collecting current and an electrically neutral tender.  A few years back, B-mann revised this one, as well.   I do not have the newest version, but many have said that it is not bad, and , is better than any of the other versions.  I used to but almost any steam locomotive that the manufacturers offered, but lately, I have laid off a bit.  I will but almost any smaller power offering, but I do not buy much larger power unless it is B&O or P&LE specific (the only large power that P&LE ever ran were some
0-8-8-0s and the A-2a Berkshires).

USRA light 2-10-2-I do not have one, but many people do like theirs.

Baldwin 4-6-0-This is a newer locomotive.  It comes with a factory decoder.   It runs well and pulls allright.  The locomotive is a generic 1890s/early 1900s prototype.  It has a USRA Standard tender, which appears outsized.  The outsized tender is not necessarily far fetched, though.  As more diesels started to appear in the late 1940s, railroads were retiring the larger steam and dismantling steam facilities.  It was the smaller power that survived longer, as they were already doing the grunge jobs and they did them better and more cheaply than did the larger power.  The dismantling of steam facilities required the remaining steam locomotives to travel farther between fuel and water stops.   More than one railroad scrapped the larger locomotives, fitted their tenders to smaller locomotives and scrapped the small tenders.   Thus, this locomotive might reflect an old ten wheeler working local passenger or freight, but with a tender that allowed it to go further between fuel and water stops.   I have two of these and like them.   I would recommend them to anyone. 

B-mann also sells a late 1890s.early 1900s 2-6-0.  It has a tender that is more matched to the locomotive size.  This one is a winner, as well.

I do not have a Kato C-58, but I do have a C-57.  It ran well for some time, but at one point the wheels bound and ruined the valve gear/rods.  Many people use this chassis to bash North American Pacifics.  Due to my unfortunate experience, I am no fan of it, but I do like the Kato 2-8-0 and 2-6-2 chassis, as will as the 2-6-4T.

The Atlas Eight Wheeler is a recent issue.  Like the B-mann, it is based on an 1870s prototype.  It runs and pulls well for its size.   It does require a long break-in period, as it will run fine out of the box, but will show some herky-jerky movement due to mechanical binding and some contact problems that I can not figure out.  If you will be patient and continue with the break in, the problems will mysteriously vanish and you will be left with a good running locomotive.

The 0-8-0 is an old Rivarossi that Atlas sold.  Its power chassis frame suffers from the same Zamac rot that plagues the RR 2-8-8-2/2-8-8-0.  I never did like the way that it ran even before the frame started to discombobulate.  It never had the good slow speed control that you need from a switcher.  N Scale of Nevada supposedly sold a replacement frame for it, but I have never seen one.  N Scale of Nevada is out of business, anyhow.

The Atlas USRA light 4-6-2 is another RR that Atlas sold.  If you have one that has not discombobulated, it is not a bad runner.  Its 1970s construction methods are a drawback, but it is not bad, considering what it is.  These came with RR's pathetic can motor, but there is a replacement five pole armature that renders a slightly better locomotive.   Still, I would be fearful of Zamac rot, so I would avoid it.

I am not familiar with the Micro Ace A9537.  What is its wheel arrangement?  If this one is the 1870s 2-6-0 that Baldwin built for Japan, then I am familiar with it.  If it is something else, I am not familiar with it.

Life-Like 2-8-8-2.  Walthers now owns the LL product line.   I did comment on this  one in my previous post.  The LL version is a good runner, but anemic puller.  The funny thing about this one is that it has an all wheels live six axle tender that is  not connected electrically to the locomotive.   WKW did re-issue it once, with some improvements, but I did not buy it.  I do have the LL version.

Some of the oldest Atlas rolling stock is allright, some excellent, some not so good.   In many cases, Atlas was simply selling rolling stock manufactured by European firms.  Some of these had clunky, out-of-scale features.  By the 1980s, Atlas was manufacturing most of its rolling stock.  What Atlas has sold for about the past fifteen years is excellent.  A number of years back, Atlas did contract out the manufacture of its rolling stock to China.

Rapido has re-appeared as a manufacturer of Canadian prototype lightweight passenger cars.  There are some available in US roadnames.  I have seen them, they look pretty good, but I have never bought any.  The old frieght cars were of varying quality.  The real prize of those is the four wheel caboose.  This one is based on an early 1900s B&O prototype (too bad no one does B&O decals for that era).  If you can find one, grab it,  I have managed to find only one.  A junque vendor had it for four dollars.  I handed him his four dollars, snatched the bag from his hand and RAN out to the car to put it there before someone told him what he had.

[trainstrainstrains]

Thank you so much brokemoto for your help, and spookshow for the link to your amazing page which I have been studying carefully.

I never realized there was so much in the tiny N scale Steam loco world, so many manufacturers, I really appreciate reading your appraisals brokemoto and spookshow.
I must say you don't sound too enthusiastic about any of the locos on my list brokemoto , tell you the truth I just looked at ebay for good looking N steam locomotives and selected what I found interesting first in looks, then in price.
I must get what I want clear in my mind, but this is always hard to do in a to me new world full of choices. I have bet on two more locos on ebay since my last post and have missed them both.
This has made me reflect. Did I really want to buy them?
Do I really want a big N scale loco? I think not, I am very attracted to the mallets, but in N not because of their size or pulling power but because of their looks.
I still find what I bought for $18,  the Jupiter and cars the most attractive, so I have been thinking I should keep it along the line of the Jupiter but of better quality.
After going thru spookshow's  list I think I will probably go for either the Atlas 4 4 0 or the Athearn 2 6 0 both of which have good reviews. And very reasonable prices.
What do you two think?

PS.
Rereading my first post about my  Bachmann Jupiter I found that brokemoto right at the start recommended an Atlas mogul and a Athearn mogul or consolidation, I don't know if they are the same Atlas 4 4 0 and  Athearn 2 6 0 that I write about and am interested in here,  but it is cleat that  brokemoto  predicted my inclination for the early era before I realized it myself! 

I have a new fear about DCC:
Someone wrote (I think in this forum but am not sure ) that there is a standard for DCC and that therefore all decoders work with all Stations.  Someone else in another forum is writing that he has decoders that do not work well because they are incompatible with his Stations.

I have bought a SDN136PS / Digitrax decoder and am about to buy a Bachmann DCC  EZ command control. It would be very disappointing   if my first try with DCC was a total flop because of Station to decoder incompatibility.  Please help before I buy .

[Bucksco]

Bachmann forum.....

[spookshow]

FYI on the Athearn 2-6-0 - it has been quite a few years since the last production run, so tracking one down may be difficult at this point.

Cheers,
-Mark

[trainstrainstrains]

I apologize Yardmaster.

Please note that at the beginning of this thread I inquired if I was infringing the rules with this subject. Please also note that during this discussion Bachmann products have been strongly praised, especially so in the comparison between the two locomotives mentioned in the title of the thread, where I have been utterly convinced by the other participants of the total superiority of the Bachmann 2 8 8 4 over the mallet I compared it with.

However I am guilty of admiring not only Bachmann  products, variety is the spice of life.

I do respect and understand the principle that this forum being part of the Bachmann page is for the discussion of Bachmann products.

Therefore I ask you and the other members to recommend an N scale  forum where if we wish we can continue this nice topic because I do not know of one.

Mark and brokemoto,  in case you missed it I take the chance to point out I added a PS to  reply #6.

Thank you.

[spookshow]

Re DCC - not sure what malarky you've been reading, but pretty much any decoder will work with any DCC system (NMRA standards, don't leave home without them).

If your goal is to operate a small steam engine using DCC your options are somewhat limited (unless you're willing to take on the relatively arduous task of making serious modifications to a non-DCC locomotive). I'd recommend one of Bachmann's 2-6-0's, 2-8-0's or 4-6-0's for starters (all of which are fine locomotives, and available with factory-installed DCC).

Cheers,
-Mark

[brokemoto]

I may not be too enthusiastic about some of the locomotives on your list, but keep in mind that most of those are older issues built to standards that are far below to-day's standards.  Examples of those would be the old Rivarossi locomotives.

There are other locomotives whose manufacturers have addressed in subsequent runs problems that came up in the first runs.  Examples of those would be the LL/WKW USRA 2-8-8-2 and B-mann USRA 2-6-6-2.   I did not buy the "corrected versions" of those, I am going solely on what others have told me about the adjustments that the manufacturer made between runs.   It may appear that I am not enthusiastic about those locomotives, but that is not an accurate description.   As I am partial to small to average sized steam, and, as the manufacturers (B-mann's being one of the leaders in this) are issuing more small to average sized locomotives, I simply did not buy the "corrected" versions of these large steam locomotives.

Then, there are the locomotives about which I am enthusiastic.  Among those would be the B-mann EM-1 (2-8-8-4) and the B-mann ten wheeler.   Both Spookshow and myself did mention the B-mann 2-6-0, which was not on your list.   That one is a winner.  I would recommend it to anyone.

The B-mann 0-6-0 is a good locomotive if you will do the tender swap.  I suspect that, at some point, B-mann will have to do something about the tender, as, if it continues its trend toward factory decoders, it can not put one into the tender as it is and expect it to function well.

You can find the Athearn 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 at shows or on FeePay.  If you see an MDC or Roundhouse version of these, you can buy them, as well.  The Athearns are copies of the MDC/Roundhouse;  Athearn bought out MDC some years back.   The Athearns come with factory installed MT couplers.  You must add MTs to the MDCs (not a difficult task).


If you are buying a B-mann DCC system, I would second Spookshow's recommendation of the B-mann 2-6-0, 4-6-0 or 2-8-0.  The first two come with a factory installed decoder.  The last run of the latter came with factory installed decoder, but previous runs had no decoder.   If you go with the 2-8-0, be sure that you buy one from the last run that has the decoder.  

I have already covered the prototype build years for the 4-6-0 and 2-6-0.  The 2-8-0 is a Baldwin "catalogue" consolidated.  Many like to put the prototype build year at 1914, but, if you ask me, it looks most like some 2-8-0s that both Saint Louis-San Francisco and Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific operated.   The first of those prototypes were built in 1911.

There are some other small to average steam locomotives out there, but it appears that we are trying Our Host's patience by discussing them, here.  I had hoped that as long as we kept B-mann's products in the mix, we would not be breaking the forum rules.  Regardless of the where a discussion of N scale steam  takes place, it is extremely difficult to avoid mentioning B-mann products, as B-mann has issued more examples of N scale steam than most, if not any manufacturer.  Further, one of B-mann's N scale steam products, the SPECTRUM 2-8-0, remains one of the two proverbial yardsticks against which all N scale steam is measured.  It is difficult to discuss N scale steam if you leave out the yardsticks.

[plas man]

glad you enjoyed reading up Spookshow , here a link to older Bachmann stuff ...


http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/bachmann-nscale-resource/

there is a link to loco's and rolling stock in the read out .

(edit to find link)

[James in FL]

@ trainstrainstrains

you've got mail.