Hi Everyone,
I found an old Bachmann train set from 1979 that was a gift from my father. It was missing the speed controller so I bought a used speed controller from eBay but I am not sure it's similar to the original controller. I tried to run the engine with it and it came alive for few seconds with some lights and noise but nothing since then. I have tried to use a voltage tester and there seems to be current coming to the track but I don't know exactly how much. I tried to open the engine but there are light wires attached to the ceiling so I can't remove the cover. I tried to clean the tracks and engine tires but no luck.
I am an absolute novice and don't know what else I can do. The biggest problem is figuring out if it's the speed controller issue, engine malfunction or connector problem.
Looking for some guidance. Thank you in advance for any help.
P.S. Please see attached photos of engine, speed controller and the connector.
The only way to find out what is wrong is the scientific laboratory way, i.e to isolate and test each component independently somewhere else in some other environment that is known to work. In other words, try running the engine on some other layout that is known to work properly. If the engine works fine there, then you know that the problem is the power source (I don't know where the word controller comes from but it's not the right word for an AC or DC model railroad power source). If it doesn't run, you know the problem is the engine. If it runs, you know it's the power source.
The voltage tester should be telling you how much and what kind of power is on the track, if it's a true meter . Re-read the instructions if needed. Meters vary in the ranges they can test. You may be using one meant for much more powerful current than the ones Model Railroads run on.
There is a possibility that you unknowingly bought a used AC toy train transformer and burned your engine up with it. Such a unit will light up your lights and make motor noise, but be frying the DC motor in the meantime. New people often don't understand the difference between AC power sources for Lionel and American Flyer trains ("transformers") and DC power packs common on HO train sets. The fact that your engine briefly lit up and made noise and then died is a strong indicator of this possibility. Examine your used power unit to see if it says if the track power is AC.
There's also a high possibility that the locomotive lubrication is congealed with attendant freezing up of the gears. No one expects old automobiles to run after sitting still for 40 years, but everyone expects Model Trains to jump up and go after decades of storage. If the engine still lights up but doesn't move properly, you'll need to take it apart, clean out the old solidified grease out, and re-lubricate.
And the point needs to be made that the locomotive, being that old, is not nearly as mechanically precision a piece as the model trains of today, and may never run well no matter what you do compare to new stuff.
Model Railroading is not a plug and play hobby but rather a universe of problem solving. If wires holding something together are a problem, you'll have to cut them to let the component loose and reconnect them when you put it back together. The proper solution involves soldering, a skill that unfortunately is frequently needed, as much as I despise it.
Another problem with these very old Trains is that they probably have outmoded couplers, which means you can't add newly purchased cars to the train without changing something.
All in all, my advice to you as a beginner is to start over with a new train set that is known to function properly in all dimensions. You save the old sentimental train set and slowly rehab the components to fit with the new. That's probably not what you want to hear, but if you continue to fool around with old stuff of questionable functionality, it will be a world of never-ending aggravations difficult for a beginner to solve.
P.S. you can't just attach pictures to your messages in this forum. They won't appear, and did not. The Bach Man requires that you use some photo sharing source like photobucket.
Thank you so much for your detailed and helpful answer. Unfortunately I don't have access to another train set to test out different components. The power pack that I bought is apparently a Bachmann product and has both AC and DC terminals. I did use the DC terminal. The maximum output of the power pack is 17 volts. I am not sure how much power the engine actually uses. So this possibly may have have caused the problem. Your final point is well taken and this is probably a lost cause but I thought I will ask experts' opinion before discarding the train set. I am attaching a Dropbox link of the photos. Hopefully it will work.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qh98naaqmbg5aly/AAAYD83L0EkapRjyZyDc3T2Ma?dl=0
basic testing of your power supply: At the DC terminals, use your voltmeter, set on DC range, to measure the output. This power pack does not have a direction switch, so straight up and down is the stop position and should measure 0 volts, turning it to the left or right should cause you to get a voltage reading that increases the further you turn the knob, maxing out at around 12 volts. Turning the knob the other way should cause the voltage to drop back to zero, then as you pass the straight up position the polarity should reverse and the voltage increase to 12 volts. If this test proves the power pack is working, conntect it to the track and repeat the process, this time measuring the voltage across the rails. You should get similar readings.If it passes this test the power pack is not the problem.
Thank you so much for the advice. My present tester shows that there is current coming to the track but not able to tell the exact value. Do you think it will be worth getting a different tester with more definitive values?
A good multi meter intended for model railroad use is worth its weight in gold. You will never be sorry you bought one. Google multi meter at MicroMark, they sell several.
Do not discard the old train set. It will be worth much in sentimental value in years from now. Besides, the cars will certainly roll a new model railroad, even though you may need to change the couplers, a minor Model Railroad adventure that we can help you with, or you can look at the many videos on YouTube to help.
If you used DC power to test out the old engine, and it didn't move, I think we can safely say that the problem could likely a jammed up mechanism, possibly caused by congealed lubricants. If you get the new train set, you can then safely and carefully disassemble the old engine to try to repair it without losing any train running time because you now have a new Train. Anyone who is in this pastime for any length of time will eventually have to repair something including locomotives, so it would not be time or resources, wasted to try to work on it. It took me a long time to work up the nerve to open up a locomotive, and I never have had one completely apart, but I have exposed gears and removed foreign material causing operational issues much like the old grease could.
Don't let any of this stuff stop you from becoming a Model Railroader. Over my long life, it's been a very consistent source of satisfaction like none else.
A little more stuff. I looked at the photos and saw the power pack you bought. I don't think it's the problem, it looks like an old timer, but not the wrong one to use.
The engine is certainly an old timer too, and quite likely not worth trying to fix, having less than excellent mechanical properties compared to today's engines. One solution common in today's model railroading world is to buy another mechanically identical engine known to run that might have some railroad name you don't care about, and put your historic shell on the mechanism that works.
Keep us posted on this adventure.
Thank you for the suggestions and encouragement. I will try to get a multi meter and see what exactly is going on. Interestingly I couldn't find any on MicroMark.
Any ideas as to why the engine came to life for few seconds? Also, a silly question: does it make a difference if the track is fully connected for the engine to work or should it work just with the connector piece (for testing purpose)? I hope I am making sense here.
I have looked at similar engines and considered buying one. But since I wasn't sure where the problem is, I have been hesitant to get one.
Do you think it's worth it to take it to a toy train repair shop and have them look at it?
It is very possible that, given the age of the set, any and all lubrication has by now dried up and is causing the motor and drive train, i.e. gears, to bind. I've had this happen on several locomotives that had been stored for a number of years. Some of these engines did give a little lurch before freezing up. One thing you can look at is the headlight (assuming it's not burned out) - if it gets brighter as you increase the speed control, then there is definitely voltage going to the locomotive.
Back in the 70's the drive mechanisms were a lot cruder and a lot more heavy (i.e. thicker) grease was used. Over time, the oil in the grease evaporated and the grease then started to act like glue. If you feel comfortable doing it, remove the shell from the engine and just take a paper towel and wipe off all the gears you can readily access. A cotton swab works well for tight areas. Don't worry about leaving the gears dry as the engine won't be run long enough for it to matter during testing. If the engine runs, then perhaps perform a more thorough cleaning of the gears and then lightly lubricate them again. Hope this helps.
Quote from: MOP on September 04, 2023, 04:27:07 PMThank you so much for the advice. My present tester shows that there is current coming to the track but not able to tell the exact value. Do you think it will be worth getting a different tester with more definitive values?
Definitely. They aren't expensive. You can often find cheap digital ones in auto parts stores, that will allow you to measure bot AC and DC voltages, along with current and resistance. The resistance (ohms) setting is particularly useful for tracing the power connections inside a locomotive when it is off the track.
Having a test track is a great idea. Modelers who have been involved a little while realize the advantage of a separate workbench, having a separate test track with a power source as a permanent part of the workbench. One day down the line you may get into DCC operation, and the test track would also function as the programming track where are you adjust and fine tune locomotive performance.
If you stay with this very long, you'll eventually see the advantage of having a dedicated workbench, rather than having to mobilize, and D mobilize at the kitchen table every time you want to do anything.
In our old age, we acquired a second home in a vacation area, but it's a very Small Home suited to our small income. Which means the space is very limited and I don't have a layout there. I was trying to do kit building and repairs on a folding TV dinner table, but after getting terminally fed up with the continuing aggravation of mobilizing and demobilizing, finally realized I could buy a rolling plastic 3-drawer thing at Walmart that I could work on top of, and roll it out of the way when not being used. I've been successfully building box, car kits, and super detailing stock plastic cabooses with lots of additional handrails and better ladders, and the drawer unit has proved to be a great place to do the work.
Quote from: Fred Klein on September 05, 2023, 12:19:33 AMIt is very possible that, given the age of the set, any and all lubrication has by now dried up and is causing the motor and drive train, i.e. gears, to bind. I've had this happen on several locomotives that had been stored for a number of years. Some of these engines did give a little lurch before freezing up. One thing you can look at is the headlight (assuming it's not burned out) - if it gets brighter as you increase the speed control, then there is definitely voltage going to the locomotive.
Back in the 70's the drive mechanisms were a lot cruder and a lot more heavy (i.e. thicker) grease was used. Over time, the oil in the grease evaporated and the grease then started to act like glue. If you feel comfortable doing it, remove the shell from the engine and just take a paper towel and wipe off all the gears you can readily access. A cotton swab works well for tight areas. Don't worry about leaving the gears dry as the engine won't be run long enough for it to matter during testing. If the engine runs, then perhaps perform a more thorough cleaning of the gears and then lightly lubricate them again. Hope this helps.
Thank you for the tips. What you are saying makes sense. Unfortunately there is no light coming on, not sure if there is a current issue or if the bulbs are burnt. I tried to remove the locomotive cover but there are several fine silver wires that are attached to ceiling of the locomotive. I am not sure if I can remove the cover without breaking these fine wires.
Quote from: jward on September 05, 2023, 05:23:50 AMQuote from: MOP on September 04, 2023, 04:27:07 PMThank you so much for the advice. My present tester shows that there is current coming to the track but not able to tell the exact value. Do you think it will be worth getting a different tester with more definitive values?
Definitely. They aren't expensive. You can often find cheap digital ones in auto parts stores, that will allow you to measure bot AC and DC voltages, along with current and resistance. The resistance (ohms) setting is particularly useful for tracing the power connections inside a locomotive when it is off the track.
Thank you. This sounds like a good idea. I will try to get one and see where the problem is.
Quote from: trainman203 on September 05, 2023, 10:39:40 AMHaving a test track is a great idea. Modelers who have been involved a little while realize the advantage of a separate workbench, having a separate test track with a power source as a permanent part of the workbench. One day down the line you may get into DCC operation, and the test track would also function as the programming track where are you adjust and fine tune locomotive performance.
If you stay with this very long, you'll eventually see the advantage of having a dedicated workbench, rather than having to mobilize, and D mobilize at the kitchen table every time you want to do anything.
In our old age, we acquired a second home in a vacation area, but it's a very Small Home suited to our small income. Which means the space is very limited and I don't have a layout there. I was trying to do kit building and repairs on a folding TV dinner table, but after getting terminally fed up with the continuing aggravation of mobilizing and demobilizing, finally realized I could buy a rolling plastic 3-drawer thing at Walmart that I could work on top of, and roll it out of the way when not being used. I've been successfully building box, car kits, and super detailing stock plastic cabooses with lots of additional handrails and better ladders, and the drawer unit has proved to be a great place to do the work.
Thank you for the advice. Sounds like a good idea to solve the space and testing issues.
Hi All,
Here is the update about my Bachmann train. I obtained a multimeter as well as a Bachmann track cleaner. The voltage across the connector track after cleaning was about 18 volts. Cleaned the engine wheels and put it on the track and nothing happened. Opened the engine (see attached Dropbox link for photos) and cleaned it and put a few drops of lubricant into the small openings in the motor. Checked the resistance across the the two metal terminals and it was about 12 Ohms. Noticed that one of the two red wires at the back end of the engine was pulled out. Opened the back cartridge with wheels but couldn't figure out where or how the detached wire should be connected.
So here are some questions:
1. Is 18 volts too high and could it have damaged to the motor when the engine spurred on for few seconds (as mentioned above)
2. Is the resistance of 12 Ohms 'ok' across the engine motor terminals or is it too high
3. What is the significance of the pulled red wire ( as shown in the picture) and does anyone know where it should be attached to
Thank you for your help.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/8u9iv5t33aom0khkcggsi/h?rlkey=ip5lcuat3b0vvt4a78xd2g8x6&dl=0
The old pancake motor. I usually try to avoid those, because the newer locomotives are so much better.
First, that 18v reading you were getting, is it AC or DC? It should be DC and lower than 18 volts. 18v sounds like typical AC voltage. Can you vary the voltage by turning the speed control knob? Can you reverse the polarity by moving the knob left or right of center? If you answered yes to these questions your controller is good.
The motor is geared directly to the wheels through spur gears. There is no worm so you should be able to turn the wheels by hand. If you can do that, the motor is not seized.
You should have a set of test leads, the kind with alligator clips on the end. With those, you can clip one end to the rails, and the and the other to the contacts on the motor. If it runs then the motor is good and your problem is in the wiring.
There are two distinct ports, AC and DC. I have it connected to DC and it reads 18 volts. Yes, the voltage varies and changes polarity. Do you think the high voltage may have caused the motor to burn?
I am unable to move the wheels manually. Should they move? If the motor is jammed then what can I do about it, anything or is it irreparable?
I will try to get the testing wires with alligator clips and see how that goes.
If it was me I'd give up, punt, snd buy a new engine.
Quote from: MOP on September 15, 2023, 12:20:17 PMThere are two distinct ports, AC and DC. I have it connected to DC and it reads 18 volts. Yes, the voltage varies and changes polarity. Do you think the high voltage may have caused the motor to burn?
I am unable to move the wheels manually. Should they move? If the motor is jammed then what can I do about it, anything or is it irreparable?
The voltage should be fine. VOltage readings can be affected by the internal circuitry of the power supply. It does seem a little high but without a load like a locomotive it's not going to read exactly 12 volts. I won't go into electronic theory here other than to say that voltage across any given point in a circuit is related to the resistance across that point as compared to the rest of the circuit. If you are reading between the rails with nothing on the track the meter sees it as an open circuit (infinite resistance) and will read the entire voltage output of the power supply. Add the locomotive to the track and even if it's not moving it is no longer an open circuit and the voltage reading drops accordingly.
As for the pancake motor, my experience with these are that yes, you should be able to turn the wheels by hand, but they won't free roll. There will be quite a bit of resistance. That you're not able to do that points to either motor damage or a gear bind. SOmetomes, grit gets in the fears that can prevent the wheels from turning. Usually in that case, they won't turn one direction, but you can roll them back the other direction until the gears bind again. If that is the case, I'd completely disassemble the gears, looking at each one carefully under a magnifier for anything in the gear teeth. If you find anything, remove it. DO this for each gear, and put it back together.
The motor itself in Bachmann locomotives of that era was very cheaply made, with plastic bearings that would overheat when the motor got hot. If there was enough heat to soften the plastic, the motor would seize. As a teenager, I worked for a display railroad where we ran alot of Bachmann locomotives. Under heavy usage we ran into seized motors quite often, and the owner had a supply of power trucks which we swapped out as needed. Even then, with parts readily available for these locomotives, there was no way I knew of to fix a seized motor. If there was, we'd have worked on them during the slow periods when we had no visitors and the railroad was shut down.
As trainman has said, in the long run you'd probably be better off with a newer locomotive. Bachmann has refined these old train set GP40s into a nice running, decent quality locomotive and I have at least a dozen of them. The pancake motor is long gone, and I haven't seen them listed in the Bachmann parts store for several years. If you do have a seized motor, you might be able to find a similar locomotive for cheap at a train show that is in working order and use it as a parts source to repair the locomotive you have. But you will still be dealing with the same drawbacks of the original locomotive.
Quote from: trainman203 on September 15, 2023, 02:10:51 PMIf it was me I'd give up, punt, snd buy a new engine.
You are right. That's probably the right thing to do. I have some free time so just trying to figure it out.
@jward. Thank you for the detailed and informative reply. So here is something interesting. I took a 9V battery and touched it to the two metal terminals on the motor and it came to life. The lights came on and the wheels started moving. So what do we make of that? Why would the motor not work on the track but will work with a 9V battery?
Because the track is the problem. Not the engine. Did you ever try this engine on another layout?
You need to check each and every rail joiner and wiring connection.
Quote from: trainman203 on September 16, 2023, 07:23:45 AMBecause the track is the problem. Not the engine. Did you ever try this engine on another layout?
You need to check each and every rail joiner and wiring connection.
We took it to a model train shop and they were kind enough to test it on their track and it didn't work.
The track has current when I test it with a multimeter. I have cleaned the track and wheels with EZ lubricant.
If the motor runs when a battery is touched to the engine connections, power is in the track, but the engine doesn't run, then you have to assume that some connectivity problem is between the trucks and the motor. Contact wipers not touching the wheels, some wire loose inside somewhere, I don't know ..... I don't have any diesels to base experience on. But with all the givens you've told us, the problem has to be between the trucks and the motor.
Yes, it seems that way that the problem is somewhere between the truck and the motor. I wonder if the loose wire on the back truck has any role in this situation. Overall, with my limited experience I am hesitant to open the engine motor but I may just have to.
If one truck picks up power from one rail and the other truck picks up from the other rail, then that is certainly the issue. You will probably have to re-solder it to some metal tab somewhere.
Yes, that could be the case. I have tried to find some type of wire drawing but so far no luck.
I don't know that model at all, but I bet if you take the shell off, somewhere you're going to see some kind of unassigned electrical contact with solder on it and nothing being held onto it by the solder.
Didn't you take that thing to a train store? Don't they have a repair guy there?
Quote from: MOP on September 15, 2023, 11:59:55 PM@jward. Thank you for the detailed and informative reply. So here is something interesting. I took a 9V battery and touched it to the two metal terminals on the motor and it came to life. The lights came on and the wheels started moving. So what do we make of that? Why would the motor not work on the track but will work with a 9V battery?
Ao far you've tested the motor. It works.
You've tested the controller. It also works.
Have you measures the voltage betwen the two rails? with no locomotive on the track it should read similar to the controller. If this also works, then.....
You mentioned that there was a wire loose on the locomotive. I suspect this is the cause of your problems, but we need to find out where it goes. With the locomotive on the track and the power turned on, touch the wire to a metal wheel on either one side of the locomotive or the other. If the disconnected wire is the problem, tapping one of the wheels should get it to move. Make a note of which side the wheel is on, because that is the side the wire needs to be connected to.
It turns out that the loose wire is the issue because when I directly connect the wires to the track the engine starts working. Thank you for the advice, it worked.
The problem now left is that apparently a different type of mechanism was used to connect these wires to the wheels than the usual soldering. I may have to post some pictures because it's hard to explain. I have an idea as to what needs to be done but with limited experience and tight space have not had much success so far.
The store we took the train to was able to test it but they don't fix trains.
I have to say, sir, you definitely get an A for effort and a P for persistence for you loyalty to that dog. I'da given up a very long time ago.
I have two Bachmann moguls and two decapods on the scrap line that, if I had your persistence, would probably get running again. The decapods are almost certainly beyond repair because some moron tried to remotor them years ago, and gouged the frame out to fit the motor in, but I keep them for assorted parts. Especially the tenders, which I'll probably put behind a couple of Bachmann consolidations to shorten the wheelbase a little to fit on a turntable I've thought about getting. The moguls are probably repairable, but I've got 50 other engines that work, so, unlikely when I could be running a train instead.
If you are sentimental about this UP diesel, and a contemporary version is available, why don't you buy a new one that runs good and put your sentimental shell on the mechanism? I did that with one of my decapods. I had decaled it years before for the Missouri Pacific, but the mechanism gave out because of the same fool that tried to re-motor the other two. MP engine 949 is still in service on my railroad , into 16 years of service now, with many more years ahead due to the heart transplant it got a few years ago.
I tend to agree with Trainman. I wouldn't have expended the effort because I know a pancake motored unit will never measure up to the performance of my dozen or so newer Bachmann GP40s.
But for somebody just getting back into the hobby, this locomotive provided a very good learning experience. You learned alot about how to approach troubleshooting your layout, and this process can be applied to many situations you will run into in this hobby.
If you'd like to see how much better designed the newer locomotives are, look for the Bachmann locomotives in the blue boxes. You can find these pretty cheap on Ebay or at a train show. They are one of the true bargains in this hobby. That's why I have so many of them.
In the meantime, connect that wire and have fun with what you have.