Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!
Royce ;D
Quote from: Royce Wilson on October 19, 2011, 10:51:20 AM
Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!
Royce ;D
There are a few being made but cannot mention the brand here. I have some of them that are around $100 depending on where you buy them from.
Bachmann only goes back to about 1913 with a couple steamers.
With a motor replacement and fine tuning, the old Bachmann tender drive can be made to run very well. I have done it and made them DCC.
Rich
Quote from: richg on October 19, 2011, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Royce Wilson on October 19, 2011, 10:51:20 AM
Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!
Royce ;D
There are a few being made but cannot mention the brand here. I have some of them that are around $100 depending on where you buy them from.
Bachmann only goes back to about 1913 with a couple steamers.
With a motor replacement and fine tuning, the old Bachmann tender drive can be made to run very well. I have done it and made them DCC.
Rich
I have a 4-6-0 from Bachmann in HO that is a 1907 Baldwin C&NW steamer.
Royce-
I don't think there's a market for 19th Century models beyond what already exists which means it's unlikely you will see more manufacturers moving into the area. You have to remember that railroads were still consolidating in the late 19th Century so there were many, many railroads which no longer exist, and those railroads often had unique rosters of unique equipment, making it hard to build and sell enough models at an affordable price while still turning a profit. Old time models are expensive to manufacture. Their smaller size complicates the engineering and their Victorian appearance makes tooling more expensive. Queen Victoria was dead but her stylistic legacy lingered on well into the Edwardian era.
1900 was a transitional year for railroads. The first transcontinental line had been finished barely 20 years earlier and the USRA was still nearly 20 years in the future. The railroads themselves and their motive power suppliers were just beginning to think about significantly larger locomotives and super steam, and those trends would quickly render earlier equipment obsolete, even if railroads continued to run many of them well into the 20thth Century. Railroading was certainly out of its infancy by 1900, but it was propably no farther along than middle school. And lots of those early-ish railroads were in small farming communities which didn't have a middle school; lots of them only had a single room for the whole board of education!
You are not without options for appropriate motive power and other equipment. It is possible to get locos from Hallmark and other builders for under $400; I know because I've purchased several in the last few years. Some will need functional updating but their bones are good. Plus, tinkering is part of the attraction of model railroading for many of us. Keystone makes some outstanding lokies for your era. Wiseman Model Service has a pretty broad offering of rolling stock at affordable prices. And all of the larger manufacturers offer a thing or three so you should be able to piece together what you need.
I wouldn't, however, look for manufacturers to make major new investments in tooling and engineering. The late 19th Century market is just too specialized to make it financially prudent for companies to offer much. The one exception to that seems to be large scale which has grown, I think, largely (no pun intended) because of how quaint the old-time trains look chugging around back yards and basements. The size makes large equipment generally unfeasible for all but the largest outdoor layouts but it's perfect for stubby little trains with old time engines and rolling stock. Yes, there are modern large scale models to be found, but very few in the large end of large scale, meaning 1:24 and larger.
-- D
I really think that there would be a market for a decent 1860/70-vintage
4-4-0; essentially the locos Bachmann now offers but with upgraded drives. Locos like the B&O's William Mason and the GN William Crooks would both be good prototypes. The General, in its as-built design, would also be good, along with the Golden Spike locos.
I saw an ad notice recently that indicates that Roundhouse will be re-issuing their RTR old-time 2-8-0, which fits into the 1890-1910 period quite nicely. The Ma & Pa 4-4-0's in their original style with the slide valves and wood cab also fit, since they were built in 1901.
Remember the HO MA&PA 2-8-0, it was as close to a generic engine of the late 1880's as you could get.
I really think a updated version of the current Bachmann HO 4-4-0 would be a winner.
Royce
it seems to me that if broadway limited could make and sell sucj items as winans camels and iron pot hoppers in o scale, there should be a market for similar items in HO. both were pretty unusual prototypes primarily associated with b&o in the 1800s.
roundhouse makes several late 1800s locomotives. those good running chassis could be the basis for some innovative kitbashing. resin car kits have also been made for a variety of period equipment as well. none of these are aimed at the beginning modeller, of course.
btw, i take issue with the comment that by 1900 the first trancon was but 20 years old. it was completed may 10, 1869.
There is a difference between making maybe 50 or a hundred Camels in O scale at several hundreds of dollars each, mostly hand-built, and tooling up to make a model that you need to sell maybe 10,000 items to turn a profit.
Well, Bachmann seemed to think there was enough of a market to tool up and make a Spectrum 1901 Richmond eight-wheeler, complete with a wooden cab and slide valves, so why not a Spectrum 1870 Baldwin eight-wheeler?
My Spectrum Baldwin 4-4-0 came supplied with an additional set of domes in the earlier style, so they've already got the tooling for the earlier shape of sand and steam domes.
Now, if I could just figure out how to swap the domes on my engine without damaging anything. ... ;D ;)
This thread touches on one of my pet peeves: the lack of attention paid to 19th century railroading by manufacturers. My previous layout [loosely] depicted the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad as it was in the autumn of 1889. A decision was made to move my time period up to 1950 on the Monks' Island Railway due to the lack of appropriate rolling stock and motive power for late 19th century operations.
I have my share of Bachmann and AHM 4-4-0s (redecorated of course) as well as numerous Roundhouse/AHM/Pocher boxcars etc. Unfortunately most of the available 4-4-0s were dated for use in the late 19th century and Roundhouse rolling stock depicts early 20th century units. Taking some poetic (I mean hobby) license, I procurred two Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s - even though they are too recent to fit the era (they both are absolute 'jewels'). I do have a couple of brass locomotives (a mogul and a Ma & Pa Consolidation) that are from the 19th century; but are poor runners and are relegated to the display shelf.
In summary, I would love to see some later 19th century products...especially since this is the 150th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. Unfortunately the market for such items is quite small and probably not worth the expense of tooling.
Ray
It would be awesome if Bachmann took the old LaFayette 4-2-0 and made a 4-4-0 out of it and added a cab. It virtually would be a updated Civil war era engine like the B&O R.R. used ;D
Royce
Not sure if you are interested in doing some work on an older engine but searched on E Bay today for the Mantua 4 4 0 General and there are still several out there. I actually was very lucky and found a used one for $50 recently at my LHS and it was in excellent condition. It needs some tweaking to get it to run a little better and someday I will get to that.
These engines I believe were in use druing the Civil War era which might be a little before the timeframe you are modeling.
I have owned, in the past, a Mantua 4-4-0 [General] and can attest to the fact that it is a poor runner. It also has 'tender drive' like its Bachmann, AHM, Rivarossi, Pocher, (et. al.) cousins. If it matters, 'tender drive' (motor in the tender connected with the drive gears via a driveshaft between engine and tender) detracts from an otherwise good looking locomotive. I had a brass 4-4-0 some time ago, and still possess a brass Mogul, that do not have this feature. If you absolutely must have a mid-19th century locomotive, then any of the aforementioned products will do with some tweaking. I guess we'll all have to wait for one of the manufacturers to produce a product as good as the Bachmann Spectrum Americans...without tender drive. Given the state of mechanical/electrical developement today, I find it hard to believe this cannot be accomplished.
Ray
Of course, one man's poor runner might be perfectly acceptable to someone else. My view of the late-model Mantua General, which has a can motor and usually sells for a lot of money on eBay :( is that it runs very well--at least, mine does--but you still have to put up with the drive shaft from the tender to the locomotive. Speaking only for myself, I put up with the drive shaft as the price of the miniaturization. I'm more unhappy with the appearance of the working headlight. I've also gotten some older engines, which don't have can motors, to run very well with just a little judicious light lubrication and breaking in.
As to appearances, the General, the actual locomotive, as preserved today, is said to look nothing like her Civil War appearance. The engine was severely damaged when Sherman took Atlanta and was rebuilt after the war. Apparently, she lost a third dome in the rebuild. The Mantua model is based on the rebuilt engine, which is said to resemble a locomotive of 1870 far more than it does a locomotive of 1855.
I once took a dremel to my old Mantua General and back dated it(took alot of work!)it turned out nice looking after I used numerous brass castings, I also removed the Mantua tender and replaced it with a scratch built one and the end result was a unpowered engine that looked great!
I placed a Kato power unit(diesel) in a combine and the layout ran sweet. It can be done but its alot of work, I do believe that if Bachmann would update their UP/CP engines to a Spectrum class that they would be welcomed.
There are people that don't model that era because most of what is advailable is just not up to todays standards.
Royce
Count me in as desiring 19th century, 1850-1870 power and rolling stock.
Even though actual 1850s 4-4-0 locos couldn't pull all that much I wouldn't mind having tender motor and a good chunk of lead over drivers for better tractive effort.
It seems to me that there must be a considerable (virtually untapped) market for locomotives and rolling stock of the mid-to-late 19th century. A look through George B. Abdill's A Locomotive Engineer's Album [Superior Publishing, 1965] will illustrate the enormous number of locomotives produced during the 19th century. Some of the most beautiful locomotives (in my humble opinion) were constructed by such manufacturers as: Schenectady, Rhode Island Locomotive Works, Eddie, Baldwin, etc...to name but a few.
The problem seems to be a tremendous number of engine manufacturers that produced units throughout the 19th century that has been too long ignored by the model railroad manufacturers; and rolling stock that is just about unavailable in the model market today (excepting some craftsman kits). [Yes, I know there are resin models of some of these cars; but resin can be a rather difficult medium to work with. The Roundhouse series of cars really depict the early years of the 20th century...they are too large for the 19th century AND feature air brakes (although the parts could be left off - back dating the model).]
When it is all said, and done, it comes down to simple economics. How many modelers are willing to spend their hard-earned dollars (pounds/euros/yen) on this segment of American railroading? If so, don't you think at least one of the major manufacturers would explore this market?
I am easily pleased: All I wish for is a good running American 4-4-0 (from, say, 1855 - 1880) that could be detailed/decorated for any one of the plethora of railroads that existed throughout the mid-to-late 1800s (makers such as: Danford, Cooke; Grant; Schenectady; Brooks). Is there a more beautiful locomotive than #3 of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad [Baldwin circa 1870]?
Ray
Are some early ones it would be nice to have in G, but right now don't have the money anyway.
An early Mogul to go with the HO old time 4-4-0 would be nice.
Read somewhere sometime that a lot of the 1850-1860 engines only weighed about 25 tons. And with the little boilers on General and Texas era locos a locomotive mounted motor would have to be on the order of an N scale motor.
What kind of gearing would it take to get enough torque on HO drivers?
Quote from: CNE Runner on October 30, 2011, 11:01:53 AMI am easily pleased: All I wish for is a good running American 4-4-0 (from, say, 1855 - 1880) that could be detailed/decorated for any one of the plethora of railroads that existed throughout the mid-to-late 1800s (makers such as: Danford, Cooke; Grant; Schenectady; Brooks). Is there a more beautiful locomotive than #3 of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad [Baldwin circa 1870]?
would be nice to have one which could be kitbashed in to early PRR styles before the Belpaire firebox.
Don't know if they still do but Precision Scale made a suitable PRR style cab in both brass and plastic. I used the plastic one but brass would add a hair more weight.
Plenty of early PRR 4-4-0 photos here http://www.northeast.railfan.net/prr_steam2.html
Quote from: CNE Runner on October 30, 2011, 11:01:53 AM
Some of the most beautiful locomotives (in my humble opinion) were constructed by such manufacturers as: Schenectady, Rhode Island Locomotive Works, Eddie, Baldwin, etc...to name but a few.
I sure won't disagree, just specifically add the Mason works to the list. ;)
QuoteIs there a more beautiful locomotive than #3 of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad [Baldwin circa 1870]?
Have you got a link to a pic?
Quote from: Royce Wilson on October 28, 2011, 09:05:08 PM
I once took a dremel to my old Mantua General and back dated it(took alot of work!)it turned out nice looking after I used numerous brass castings, I also removed the Mantua tender and replaced it with a scratch built one and the end result was a unpowered engine that looked great!
Did you give it a third dome and a slatted "chicken-coop" pilot?
I model the Norfolk and Western in the early 50's with "modern" steam. I have a rule to curb spending that I will only buy items that fit my era/locale. I think I would make an exception for a good 4-4-0. There is just something about the over the top decoration and just the overall look is fantastic. In short...I'd buy.
-Brad
Wow, it is gratifying to see so many modelers interested in 19th century railroading. Who knows; maybe one of the manufacturers will take the 'plunge' and come out with a line of period locomotives and rolling stock.
Jeff - I got the information/picture of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad's #3 from George B. Abdill's book
A Locomotive Engineer's Album (1965). Here is a copy of the picture to which I was referring:
(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/Allegro34/Forum%20posted%20images/OilCreekNumber31.jpg)
Quoting from the caption: "...A classic example of the lovely 4-4-0 is this diamond-stacked American built by Baldwin in April of 1870 as No. 2 of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad, bearing shop number 2127..."
'Gotta love the straight lines and uncomplicated running gear. Abdill's book is filled with photographs of 'lovely' locomotives.
Enjoy,
Ray
yes it is nice to see many early era railroaders. my layout may take place in the mid 30s but my railroads going to be a railroad that take place in western colorado but it will have only 2 moderatly new shays. i would like to see more early rolling stock and a new 2 truck shay from bachmann to go with my 3 trucks. my railroad usally uses old D&RG cars before they started buying new rollingstock.
The General that I back dated has since been sold, but yes it was built to war standards with a third dome, and ankle rail. I had to scratch build the pilot. If I had to do all over again I think I would use one of those danged new casting machines to reproduce the parts. heck even the stack had to be redone.
There is a gentleman that is producing the decals for that era that are nice and belive me the paint and decals makes or breaks a nice model.
Royce
Quote from: CNE Runner on October 31, 2011, 02:16:00 PM
Jeff - I got the information/picture of the Oil Creek & Allegheny Railroad's #3 from George B. Abdill's book A Locomotive Engineer's Album (1965).
Thanks! I've got the book. :)
In fact, I've got all of Abdill's books. :) I agree, they are filled with photos of "lovely" locomotives. :)
Quote from: Royce Wilson on October 31, 2011, 08:44:13 PM
The General that I back dated has since been sold, but yes it was built to war standards with a third dome, and ankle rail. I had to scratch build the pilot. If I had to do all over again I think I would use one of those danged new casting machines to reproduce the parts. heck even the stack had to be redone.
There is a gentleman that is producing the decals for that era that are nice and belive me the paint and decals makes or breaks a nice model.
Royce
Thanks! I'm sure the engine looked really sharp when you were finished with the rebuild! :)
Hey, do any of y'all know about this Yahoo Group?
I'm in it.
There are a lot of people in there who know a lot of stuff, or where to find it.
And some
very good modeling.
Actually, a lot of good modeling.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/
QuoteEarlyRail ยท The Early Rail modeling group.
Description
Are you interested in modeling early railroads? This list includes railroads both in and outside of the USA. The start of World War 1 is the general cut-off date for this list.
Possible topics include: motive power, rolling stock, broad gauge, narrow gauge, different track styles, early trolleys and interurbans, US Civil war era, structures and much more.
Where do I get horses in my scale? How about people in the right costume? What scale can I find the most stuff in?
The Early Rail Model Kits Cooperative, our kit-creating special interest group is here:
ER_Kits
If you're interested in slightly later period railroading as well, there's a group for that at:
1914to1940RRing
NOTE: Due to automated spambots, new members will need to send a message to make it clear they're a real person interested in trains. ADMIN. NOTE: Somewhere along the way, I seem to have become the owner (or at least co-owner) of this list, indicated by the blue crown symbol next to my name. So I may be only one approving membership. If so, please be patient, I will get to it. Also, if a msg you post doesn't show up right away, your membership is probably set to needing msg approval, under old system. I'll approve apropriate msgs ASAP, and re-set your msg setting. Thanks. Jim Flynn
I have all (I think) of Abdill's books, too. They are great.for all the pics of 19th century locos.
Quote from: Terry Toenges on November 02, 2011, 02:08:53 AM
I have all (I think) of Abdill's books, too. They are great.for all the pics of 19th century locos.
His book on Civil War railroads is a must-have for anyone interested in locomotives of the 1850s and early 1860s. I seem to remember pictures of some engines that might even go back to the 1840s.
The Civil War book has photos of some Mason engines that, I think, are well among the most beautiful locomotives ever built.
Speaking of Mason locos, http://www.heimburgerhouse.com/railfan_books_I-P/Mason-steam-locos.php
QuoteMason Steam Locomotives
By Arthur W. Wallace
Melodies, cast and wrought in metal - William Mason's beautiful steam locomotives were considered the finest in form and function, the "Rolls Royces" of the day. More than 700 of these locomotives were built at the Taunton, Massachusetts factory beginning in 1853. After 50 years of research, Art Wallace brings the complete Mason locomotive story to light. In detailed text and nearly 200 photographs and illustrations, Mason's handiwork comes to life in this rich historical volume. From American Standard 4-4-0s to 4-6-0s and double-truck 0-6-6Ts and 2-8-6T's, Mason locomotives have captured the eye of railfans, engineers and historians for decades. Now you can read the fascinating story and see the products that made Mason famous. Thirteen detailed chapters, 192 pages, 8-1/2 x 11" smyth-sewn hardbound; nearly 200 rare historical black and white photographs; dustjacket by noted artist Gil Bennett.
Price: $53.95
That really is a fine book and well worth the price as a lot of research went into this.
The Mason locomotives really were state of art of their day.
Royce
There are useful images here.
Examples
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr13s.jpg
(is that a Big roundhouse behind it?)
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1sb.jpg
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr_us.jpg
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr1832.jpg
www.rr-fallenflags.org/rdg/rdg-s411ark.jpg
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns562.jpeg
You won't believe the cab on this 1859 4-4-0 on Philadelphia and Reading
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr_hiawatha.jpg
Mason Bogie at Mason Works
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie_mmw.jpg
Attractive little 0-6-0
www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bgr1.jpg
1873 0-6-0 with slope back tender and cab with side doors
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr949s.jpg
1873 PRR 2-8-0 Consolidation
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr950s.jpg
N&W via Huge library of images at Virgina Tech.
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns576.jpeg
(gaslamp, eagle on sand dome lid, and stack of wheels are noteworthy)
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns565.jpeg
(love the combine and coach in that one)
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns595.jpeg
(roundhouse roof and brick shop buildings behind it?)
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns716.jpeg
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns562.jpeg
(note house style and picket fence)
Whole page of CNJ steamers from Taunton, Brooks, Cooke, New Jersey, Mason, Grant, Rogers, Baldwin, and whoever A. Pardee in Hazelton, Maryland was.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/cnj_steam3.html
Dig the 6 wheel tender on this 0-6-0
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnj402s.jpg
Background buildings to note
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnj66s.jpg
An 0-4-0 you don't see one like every day
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr1s.jpg
1890 0-6-0 Saddle Tank
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr813s.jpg
Anyway, you get the idea that site overflows with good stuff.