I guess I am a new bee since I have not been active in model rr for over 50 years! Now at 65 I am getting back involved to pass along the fun of the hobby to my 7 yr old grandson. We are building a HO 4 X 8 layout in my garage. Starting off with a Rail Chief set and loco EMD GP40. I was looking at a plan with a 4% incline/decline over 8 feet. I was told this may be too steep for the engine. What would you recommend?
Jack
Destin, Fl.
Welcome, Jack!
If you are intending a figure 8 track setup on a 4X8 layout, you may be forced into 4% grades to run the trains up and over the lower track. This will work for your locomotive, if you only plan to run short consists; perhaps 4 or 5 cars behind the loco.
However, little kids, and grown up kids like us, will be drawn to running longer trains, with more cars and locomotives. Eventually, you will find a 4% grade is steep and the train will not want to make the climb. A 3% grade is much easier on equipment. As it happens of course, a company called Woodland Scenics sells precut Styrofoam risers on a 3% grade. If you are willing to extend your 4X8 to say a 4X9 or 5X8, you could run your grades a bit longer to achieve a 3% grade.
Bottom line; it's your railroad, and you can make a 4% grade work, if you keep your train lengths short.
Regards,
Jonathan
Wow, quick reply. Thanks Jonathan. I will plan on going with the 3%.
a locomotive will only pull 1/6 on a 4% grade of what it will pull on the level.
I have used 4% grades successfully, but either run short trains or run more than one locomotive. that said, all locomotives are not created equal. I have a couple which will pull about 12 cars up 4%, and others that will only pull 1 or 2 cars.
with creative planning, it is possible to get an up and over track arrangement in a 4%8 space with 3% grades. instead of the standard figure 8 over and under, consider inverting this into a twice around plan. the track would climb on the first lap, cross over itself on a bridge, then descend to base level on the second lap.
here are some basic formulas which will help you look at track plans and estimate the grade.
4% grade, rise per full section of track is approximately 3/8" and 9 sections are needed to reach 3" in elevation, the minimum needed to bridge another track.
with 3% grade, the rise per section is 1/4" and 12 sections are needed to reach 3"
with 2% grade, the rise per section is 3/16" and 16 sections are needed to reach 3" elevation.
you can look at any published track plan for sectional track, count the number of sections between the points where the tracks cross, and estimate the grade necessary to convert this crossing into an over and under.
hope all this helps.
I agree it is a good idea to avoid a 4% grade. My Bachmann FTA had trouble handling something close to that steep. Also keep in mind that heavier locos will manange a steeper grade better in terms of the number of cars they will pull than ligther locos will.
Would it be possible for you to expand from your plan of a 4 x 8 to a larger layout? Even if larger, still a good idea to go w/a lesser grade.
Traditionally I have not used grades steeper than 2%. At least I try not to. The one lesson I learned-really, really quick, was to NEVER put a grade anywhere you cannot both see and touch. As in tunnels... Now, ever since that first "big layout" (the PIA one we all build...), having done my penance big time, I follow the 2% per 100 inches. This means that in about 8.5 feet, the track will rise 2 inches-not more. Boy, is it easier!!!
RIch C.
I will add one other thing Jack. I would not use the old style "horn hook" (X2f) couplers on your cars or locos, on a grade, they perform horribly. Knuckle couplers set at the correct height using a Kadee Coupler Gauge is the way to go.
The EZ-Track and Atlas Graduated Pier sets will give you a grade of roughly 3% on a standard figure-8, using 18" radius curves. The trade off is you'll only have two level sections of track. The 9" straight at the top, and the one directly below it.
JWard's suggestion of a twice-around will get you closer to a 2% grade, which is a major plus if you plan on running longer trains.
Len
Just as a point of info, I did use 22" R curves along with 18" ones with my Atlas pier set. I have mine shaped more like a backwards "S" with it running back under 2 straight trestle sections after it had come back to table top level. Very happy with the results of the incline and performance of locos on compared to the AHM set used prior to that (that thing looked to be closer to 5% than 4%!!)
Just have to work on the suggestions you and Mr. Ward gave me to improve the look of the railroad ties in mid air.
See Mar. 68 MR. F-3 on track sans roadbed-with a truck off the fences to boot...All of this on the front cover!
Yep, found it (just not able to get a blown up image of the cover). Well whadya know, hows about that? :D
PS-Could be an F7, no?
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on August 26, 2015, 09:01:21 PM
See Mar. 68 MR. F-3 on track sans roadbed-with a truck off the fences to boot...All of this on the front cover!
Ha, I see what you mean, derailed front truck. And look at that poor quality bridge approach. No support under the tie strip. The ties laid directly on top of the piers, tsk, tsk. Very toy train like. That photo wouldn't rate publication anywhere in the magazine these days, derailment aside. The modelling just isn't up to par.
Cheers
Roger T.
Any idea who's piers are holding up the track in the MR pic? They look sort of like Atlas, but instead of ears over the end of the ties like Atlas uses, there's a 'boss' sticking up between the ties inside the rails. It's not one I'm familiar with. Tyco or Mantua maybe??
Len
The Atlas pier set comes with what I would call "tabs" that fit into the "ears" on top of the piers. The piers outfitted this way can be placed where you need them fitting the "boss" between 2 ties. The piers with these tabs in them are meant to be placed in between the piers with just the "ears" are being used.
I have always liked the stone/concrete textured look of the gray Atlas piers. They also take spray paint well.
Quote from: Jack TS on August 26, 2015, 09:12:17 AM
I guess I am a new bee since I have not been active in model rr for over 50 years! Now at 65 I am getting back involved to pass along the fun of the hobby to my 7 yr old grandson. We are building a HO 4 X 8 layout in my garage. Starting off with a Rail Chief set and loco EMD GP40. I was looking at a plan with a 4% incline/decline over 8 feet. I was told this may be too steep for the engine. What would you recommend?
Jack
Destin, Fl.
Hi Jack
Since you might be around here for a while, get a Photo Bucket account for posting pictures here. Makes trouble shooting much easier at times.
If you have not done it yet, take time to look all around the Bachmann site as there is loads of good info on all kinds of Bachmann products.
Sometimes searching the Bachmann forums for answers can be beneficial. I usually use Google and include bachmann in the question.
http://photobucket.com/
Scroll down to General Questions in the Bachmann forums. There are suggestions on how to do this. A picture is worth a thousand words.
You Tube is good for posting videos.
As the Bach-Man would say, have fun.
Rich
Richard and all, Thanks for the advise. Seems like a great RR community and I am thankful the advise. Much like my Reef Aquarium hobby forum I expect I will be back here often. I am rethinking my plans after hearing the incline advise.
I will set up the photobucket account.
Photo Bucket can addictive you might say.
Plan on what you might want for albums and don't move a photo to a different album. Just add the same photo to the new album.
Photo Bucket will warn you. After a while, you can lose track of where a photo is.
Also, if you delete a photo, where ever you posted the photo, it will disappear.
I have seen many solutions to issues happen much quicker with photos, especially to layout design. Every so often I see a post in different forums where someone has a short in the layout and did not realise they had a reverse loop or cross over.
It is a good idea to get a buzzer and nine volt battery from Radio Shack and connect it across the point you will connect the power. If it buzzes, you will realise there is a short, somewhere. The same can be done with a multimeter that has an audible alarm in case of a short.
Good luck.
Rich
Couldn't go w/o recommending a Harbor Freight meter to a new guy huh RichG/richardl? :D
Jack before you buy a Harbor Freight meter, read the reviews on them first (do that for any meter you are considering in fact) then go buy a decent meter. Rich fails to mention a decent meter does not mean an expensive one; no need to go buy a Fluke but a good one that will last, can be had for less than $20. A Craftsman for one example. An no, Rich is correct, this is not rocket science.
If you're not partial to HF, Lowes and Home Depot both have decent digital multimeters in the $25 range.
Len
Quote from: richardl on August 27, 2015, 10:46:45 PM
No idea of what your level of model railroading is like.
Rich
No idea huh?
And I certainly would know I had a reverse loop w/o having set one up then rely on a buzzer to tell me I had one.
Quote from: richardl on August 27, 2015, 10:46:45 PM
The only issues are when the battery starts to run down or the one fuse blows that protects the current readings circuit.
Rich
This is why I suggest reading reviews on a product first. Not everyone has 3 other meters to go to when one fails, nor should people have to have 3 others as backup for when 1 decides to not work.
Quote from: richardl on August 27, 2015, 10:46:45 PM
Worked for NASA for fifteen year and used the best equipment so I know what to look for if ever an issue.
Rich
I know, we know. You have made mention of that on numerous occasions, both as
RichG and
richardl.
Quote from: richardl on August 27, 2015, 10:46:45 PM
Like having more than one hammer, screwdriver, locomotive, etc.
Rich
I would not say it's like having more than one of those things. A multi meter, while capable of testing several things, has one job. Different hammers are used to perform different jobs. Same with screwdrivers, not all work for the same job. Can you use 2 hammers or 2 screwdrivers simultaneously?
And locos, well of course, who doesn't want more than one loco? :D
Agree Len. The one I use in fact, came out of Home Depot. Never had a problem with it.
offensive material removed.
Rich
There was no need to have. I did not find anything "offensive" and certainly, no offense was taken here ;)
I have three VOMs; one is a Simpson that is older than Brock; one is a Rat Shack with carrying case; both are analog, and work just fine. In the truck, I have, as a weapon of choice, a Fluke digital. This is a good unit as well. I didn't think I would be too cool with the digital readout, but I am.
Rich.C
That can't be that old, I am just a kid. :D
I am " THAT OLD " and I have at least six VOMs both Analog & Digital . I must also admit that I am a tool junkie and also Quality Assurance Inspector who did do electrical inspection . Having been involved in a lot of hobbies that require information about the condition of electrical equipment , meters of various types are the only way to really know what is what and to how many decimal places . Consider the number and types of battery operated equipment we have to deal with from watches , phones , tools , and vehicles of one sort or another . Existence requires information . John2.
...I try not to be a "tool junkie"-I mean, I try REALLY hard! Doesn't work. What is a little comical is that my son doesn't know which end of a hammer to grasp. His wife does, and she is good at this stuff-construction, I mean.
When a tool either has exceeded it's life/usefulness, out it goes. On the other hand, it is comforting to know that I have them and the knowledge of their "how-to". NOW...some day, I will have to live up to that little jewel.
RIch C
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saluda_Grade
http://www.oldmadison.com/madview2.html
Thanks 203, My grandson was born in Athens Tn. and I am using the Smokey Mountain area as my design plan area. Your first link was quite apropos.
Trainman;
That first one was an extremely interesting read. Thank you for the info. That looks like it could be a bit of a challenge, even for a veteran engineer!
RIch C.
611 struggles up Saluda;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPIynJq7tg (3:03 mark)
Southern training video on the grade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IABM8UPplY
Quote from: Jack TS on September 03, 2015, 09:09:53 AM
Thanks 203, My grandson was born in Athens Tn. and I am using the Smokey Mountain area as my design plan area. Your first link was quite apropos.
jack,
for inspiration, you may also want to take a look at two related operations on the Carolina side of the smokies.
the graham county railroad, now abandoned, ren from Robbinsville to a connection with the southern's murphy branch at topton. motive power was a shay and a ge 70 ton diesel, both of which are produced by Bachmann. this line also featured a 6% grade down to the southern interchange.
the southern railway's murphy branch, now spun off as the great smoky mountains railroad. this line featured spectacular scenery, 3% grades, and sharp curves that make it a natural for a model railroad. Bryson city had some rather extensive industries for such a small town, and would provide a natural focal point for the model version.
Didn't you see the Graham County in operation, Jeffery? That was one I missed back in the 60's. Saw the Reader in 1963, the Mississippian in 1964, the Magma Arizona in 1965, and the Green Brothers Gravel Pit line in both 64 and 65. Those were the days. The twilight of steam in unbroken regular revenue service. A beautiful sunset it was, truly, and I'm glad to have seen it.
Quote from: Trainman203 on September 06, 2015, 06:06:08 PM
Didn't you see the Graham County in operation, Jeffery? That was one I missed back in the 60's. Saw the Reader in 1963, the Mississippian in 1964, the Magma Arizona in 1965, and the Green Brothers Gravel Pit line in both 64 and 65. Those were the days. The twilight of steam in unbroken regular revenue service. A beautiful sunset it was, truly, and I'm glad to have seen it.
you are right, I did ride the graham county. I must have been about 10 and we bought tickets to ride the freight train, technically a "mixed"....they were using the shay on the excursion trains at the time and we had the 70 tonner for power. we spent most of the ride in the caboose, but they had to leave it at the top of the 6% grade because the 70 tonner couldn't pull the inbound cars off the southern up the grade with the caboose too. the grade was spectacular, and seemed even steeper than it actually was because the gc was dropping over the rim into the Nantahala gorge on a 6% grade at the same time the southern was climbing out of it on a 3% grade. so the apparent grade was 9%.
if you like steam on heavy grades a trip to west Virginia to ride the cass scenic railroad would be worth your time as well.
I was at Cass in 1973. I remember three engines under steam at once, all with different whistles. It sounded like a 1920s junction. No reverb in DCC can replicate what those mountains do for steam whistles.
when I was a kid, my dad was & still is a western Maryland fan. after they abandoned the mainline, which was a local railroad, we started to explore the branches including the line to Webster springs. which passed within about a mile of the cass railroad at spruce, wva. we would camp out along this line, which was one extremely sharp curve after another, and when the train came in the middle of the night you could hear the diesels throttle up and down, and the wheels squealing around those curves for an hour before they got to us. all of that echoing off the mountains was, like you said, a memorable experience.
postscript:
my dad later built a layout based loosely on this line, which he still runs to this day. and the railroad itself was reborn as a tourist line by the same people subcontracted to operate the cass railroad. in fact, the two operations have been known to run cooperative excursions via a new connection built between the two lines at spruce.
Thanks to all for the inspiration and advise.
I attached a link to PhotoBucket (hope it works) with first phase of my build. I went with a 3% incline then another 3% to get to the "mountain" area on right of layout. Then did a single 3% on inner route left side. Hope to get some more work done this weekend with grandson. If anyone sees anything seriously wrong with layout feel free to comment. My loco and 4 rolling stock seem to make it all around just fine.
Jack Destin, Fl.
http://s1006.photobucket.com/user/jackts/media/Train%20Build_zpswdqpxtdi.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
You want to use the 'Direct' link, that starts with an 'i' to make your pics show up here. Like this:
http: // i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af189/jackts/Train%20Build_zpswdqpxtdi.jpg (Added spaces before & after // to break link so you can see it)
This is what it gets you using the 'img' tags:
(http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af189/jackts/Train%20Build_zpswdqpxtdi.jpg)
Looking forward to seeing more pics as your layout progresses.
Len
Thanks Len. Will try that next time around.
Jeffry;
I have never been to Cass County; it must be beautiful, especially in the autumn. I had the good fortune to go to Brown County (chasing women) South of Nap-town when I was in the service-and the place was well worth the trip. The two places are pretty much of the same personality.
Incidentally, reverb itself would not do it; but digital delay or some form of multi-repeat (could be) possibly installed on a decoder on some future date in time. that multi would do the trick; especially if it could be mixed with reverb.
Rich C.
personally,i think that we've been approaching sound entirely the wrong way. I wonder if it would be better to mount several large speakers under the layout in various locations, with a decoder that emits a wifi type signal to the speakers. each speaker would adjust its volume according to the strength of the signals received from the decoder(s) so that you could get effects like bass and echo that would actually follow the locomotive around the layout. as your trains move around, the sound would be constantly increasing or decreasing in each of the speakers as their proximity to the train changes. thus the sound would appear to follow the train. the decoder could be fitted with some sort of light detector circuit that would cut volume in half when it entered a tunnel and restore it when it emerged.
I think this would be far superior to trying to cram a decent sounding speaker into the locomotive like we now do.
it would be wonderful to realistically capture the sound of a train in a quiet mountain valley.
I love your idea!