Here is my first layout design, it's more of a yard and maintenance theme with the out side track for running. I've been looking it over and haven't seen any possible problem areas, but being new at this I'm probably overlooking them, so letting everyone taking a look at it will find what I've missed.
This is also my first time trying to post an image, so will see what happens.
Thanks :)
Les
(http://members.cox.net/lescar/content/10x6.JPG)
Check for possible problems for overhang with things like 89' box cars and articulated auto carriers etc..
what are your widest and tightest turns
ABC: Thanks for the tip, but I'm not planning on running any thing over 50'.
Full Maxx: The outer curves are 28" and 26".
That turntable looks pretty big. How big is it, and do you need it that big? I gobbles up space that might be used for other things.
I like it! ;D
Thanks for your comments, :)
ebtnut: the turn table is the Walters 130', was going to go with the 90' but then started looking at maybe getting in to some Steamer's. ;D
Also the actual layout size is going to be 10x6, but the XtrkCAD show's it at 10x5, the layout is a little to close to the edge for my liking, even when I have planed to put some sides around the edges, the track looks like it would be to close to the siding.
The building are just sitting close to where I want them, when I actually see the building and see how they are set-up, they will most likely be move to where the track mate up.
Les
Les: In sizing the turntable, consider what you might be running in steam.
For a relatively small layout like this, small to moderate size locos would be the norm, and in general they will fit on a 12" turntable. If you go for really big power, then you have to consider your track spacing on the curves to avoid having the overhang snag equipment running on the other curved track.
Les,
Do keep in mind, that with a larger turntable, you CAN expand the layout later. Without having to but ANOTHER turntable to fit the "New" expansion!!
Do not ask me how I know!! ;D
Les,
Looks like your going to have a great time! Enjoy it, let us know how it goes. ;)
Cheers,
Joshua
Dear Les,
Nice design. Very impressive for your first try.
However, overhang crashes are a concern.
NMRA says that you need more than 2" center-line spacing between concentric HO curves at 26".
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html
This is one of those "oops" that got by.
Curiously enough, they were conscience of the proper spacing in their earlier design of the 33.25"R and 35.5"R curves.
Mr. Bill said "Oh, No!" when the 26"R and 28"R curves were announced after the expensive molds were made.
Note that there is 2-3/8" spacing between the mains on the HO crossover.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
All your comments and suggestions are most appreciated and brings up good points.
I received my Digitrax system today, when I opened the boxes and pulled out the DCS 200, I started laughing at the size of it, I know from being in electronics that technology is getting small but seeing the pictures on the web sites, (I thought it would be bigger.) O.K "bad joke".... :o but can't wait to try it out this weekend.
Ebtnut: I was looking at the 2-8-0 or or a little bigger, and my thinking was between the engine and tinder would be over 12", unfortunately there are no spec.'s in the descriptions so it's hard to tell. Thanks for the heads up on the curves.
Hotrainlover: that sure sound's like personal experience to me.. :D
Santa Fe buff: Thanks, I plan on it. ;D
Joe Satnik: I appreciate the information, and have a question for you and ebtnut, if I shorten the straightaways that should give me the separation needed between them without changing the design to much.
Keep'em come'en. 8)
Thanks
Les
Dear Les,
Lengthening the straight of the outer oval will reduce the effect of the inside overhang (middle of loco or car) on the outer oval,
but will do nothing to reduce or eliminate the outside overhang (ends of the loco or car) on the inner oval, which will still stick out towards the outside straights.
I would reduce the inside oval to 25-5/8" radius flex/cork. It will then fit perfectly with the 2-3/8" spaced HO crossovers.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I Like it, but will second the concerns about the distants between the tracks especially on the curves.
NM
Oops, what I was talking about is to shorten the inside straightaway, so it openens the gap between the too.
Les
Hi Les;
One thing that many articles recommend is not having the track parallel to the edges of the layout.
You may also want to consider a scenic divider.
Also, like a real railroad, what is the purpose of the railroad? Define some economic reason for its existence.
The above will keep the layout interesting over a longer term.
Have fun.
Dear Les,
Lengthening the outer straight or shortening the inner straight has the same effect:
Middle of car overhang reduced on outer oval, end of car overhang unaffected on inner oval.
You may have a point with shortening, though, as you would get closer to the crossover, which forces (warps) the mainlines to 2-3/8" separation.
I notice that the left crossover at the bottom right of your layout is making an "S-curve" with the inner oval.
Move the crossover to the left (so there is at least a "longest loco or car length" between the inner curve and the crossover) to correct this.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thanks, will see what I can come up with.
Les
Also, like a real railroad, what is the purpose of the railroad? Define some economic reason for its existence.
For example I did some research on my railroad here in Staten Island , NY to justify its existence. I came up with 4 reasons all of which will be modeled in some form.
1) New York Container terminal (Intermodal Service)
2) Con Edison has a coal fired power plant which need a constant supply
3) Passenger service The Staten Island railway is like the NYC subway but open/elevated.
4) Garbage Removal from NYC is sometimes done by rail.
here is my addition... before and after (http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/IMG_8262.jpg) (http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/DSC03642.jpg) lots of room for other stuff
full maxx:
It looks like your doing the same thing I'm doing. JUMPPING IN WITH BOTH FEET... ;D I just ordered more track from The Favorite spot, to add on to my temporary layout, the next step is build the bench work. I'm using a welding table for the layout now. What is the size of your total layout now with the addition, I'm trying to get a idea for the size of mine. Also your track looks a little close to that one edge, are you planning on putting any edging around it?
Les
yeah I have kinda shifted it a little to get away from the edges ...the long side is 9' 6" and the other is 8' ...I need to get a pack of the half 22" radius because it is in the slightest bind right now, with a short piece of 22" if will be totally relaxed
i am planning to get some plexiglass to put around the outside as a wall...my 2-8-0 has hit the floor three times , but it was just the engine and tender...I say my like it is but honestly it all belongs to my 4yo, he will be 5 next month
full maxx:
What is the radius your using on the lower half of the picture, I have been trying to do something like that but haven't been able to get the correct radius. With the new size of your layout, how are you laying out your track connections so you can get a reliable track conductivity for the DCC. I went out and bought spare rail joint's and I'm attempting to try and solder wire to them. I bought a couple of the Atlas rail joint with wires but the wire size is a little small for the DCC system I'm using.
Nigel:, Joe323:
I originally started researching the background of the rail systems here around where I live (Las Vegas, Nevada), and found out that the Amtrak station, Union Pacific rail yard have pulled out. So there is not much here anymore, there are a few side spurs that service a cement plant ( I think) up north of here and haven't been able to find out where the hopper cars are going/coming, there is also some type of industrial complex that has a bunch of tank and hopper cars that's down south of here. But I have not had a chance to go find out what type materials that are being carried, I keep forgetting to get the name of the company's to try a research them. I've been using Google Earth to locate most of the side spurs around here but it doesn't give much information on the company's.
Les
the outside of the double and the"lower" are both 22" radius
Les:
Of course it doesn't have to be today you could go back a few years to find an economic reason for your RR to exist. You could also find out what companies are in the industrial complex near you and then Google then to find out what type of product they sell and then go from there.
If youare doing a southwest desert scheme it doesn't have to say Las Vegas on it does it?
For me combining realism with some representation of realism works best (Given that I like most of us, probably have a limited amount of space for a model RR).
full maxx,
What are those pictures on your walls? They don't look like train room pictures to me. My CEO has been going to train shows with me and she is in charge of the decor in my room. AND, your layout is not near cluttered enough.
BTW, my layout will be looking a whole bunch like yours, with the "L". My track is right next to the edge right now, but I will add an extension on each side as preventitive maintenance.
Clif
full Maxx:
So would it be safe to assume that all your curves are ether 22" or 18", and if so how dose your bigger stuff run on them any derailing problems, I'm not real concerned if they over hang a little bit most of the cars will be 40' or 50'.
Joe323:
No it doesn't need to say Las Vegas, and as for the scheme it will probably be a Southwest Desert, running the Union Pacific, Santa Fe, and maybe others that are in this area.
Les
He can likely run a 2-8-0 on 18" radius without many problems, but his 2-8-4 probably doesn't like the 18" radius, so he probably run that on 22" radius. His Acela would likely need 22" radius because of the passenger cars, the loco can negotiate 18" radius. I recall full max saying several times that all his stuff runs pretty well.
I think I recall him saying something about it, If that's the case then what I have planed on running will work just fine. I'm actually working on an addition to the original layout design, and will be posting it when it's done.
Les
the inner loop is 18 and the outer and the lower part of the "L" in the pic is 22 everything runs fine on the 22 but the 2-8-4 and the Acela don't like the 18 very much...had issues with a new turnout today but I think I got it figured out...my 2-8-0 has hit the floor 3 times and is cosmetically damaged but still runs fine...here I go saying mine again, it all belongs to my 4yo and he know how to run it...look on you tube search fullmaxx1 and watch the videos hes the engineer I'm the fixer
oh yeah the pics in the first pic are from a paint by number water color book with tear out pages and the second pic is Rembrandt hanging on the wall
That's all right will let the (MINE) side, but I'm sure the little engineer is willing to share . ;) And it looks like the painting is from the little Rembrandt. ;D
now all I need is three switches to makes a siding or two to park the three trains in after running...the Acela is a no brainer as to the sars it pulls but the 2-8-4 pulls the passengers cars and the 2-8-0 pulls the freight cars... I just need sidings to allow them to park off the main so the others can run...getting kinda old ...dad take this one off and put this one on ;D
I can understand that, ;) I'm trying to get my grand kids involved and hoping to get all the track and accessory's need for the start of my project, when the Income Tax gets in. The building and other minor stuff can wait and I can get as needed. My main interest is learning the new DCC system and get it wired properly so everything runs smoothly (I hope). :-\
Les
if you get the bachmann ez command its really easy but kinda limited as I have read, other systems control a bit more but for the money I paid for the Bachmann (ebay) its worth it too me and my little engineer loves it...he keeps turning the lights on and off
You could put in 2 sidings off the mainline where it angles off the original loop. Put the sidings about where that passenger car is
Full maxx: I have the EZ-Command that came with the set, and used it for the few days while waiting on the Digitrax super Chief Xtra to come in. I liked the EZ-Command for it simplicity, but wanted a system that I could do more with, like change the CV's and be able to read them back.
It sounds like you have a smart little guy there for he age. ;) 8)
Les
Here's an update to my layout plans, All the connections are being done with wired rail joints spaced 3 feet apart and breaking that down into four power district's using a PM-42 and terminal blocks.
The lower left turn out is going to be the programming track isolated from the rest of the layout, the top curves are 26" with the rest being 22 & 18", the turnout on the right side is for a diesel fueling station. The incoming and outgoing tracks from the turn table should be the only reversed loop which the turn table will automatically change the polarity as needed.
This is just a general plan, and most likely will get changed around once I actually start laying track, but it gives me a good overview of what I want to do. If anyone has any ideas or comments please feel free to chime in.
Thanks :)
Les
(http://members.cox.net/lescar/content/10x8L-shaped.JPG)
Les,
If you'll use a DPDT toggle switch to control it, and gap both rails, you can use the programming track as a normal siding until you need to program a decoder. Then you would throw the toggle to connect the siding to the programming outputs of your command station. When you're finished programming, throw the toggle the other way and your programming track becomes a normal siding again.
Old Timer
OldTimer:
Thanks for the idea. :)
Les
IMHO
Turntables are way out of spec for layouts that size
They completely dominate the layout and overwhelm the mainline
But that is just me
I am not a fan of a lot of sidings/ turntables on small layouts
I know people like to display all their stock but I mainly want to see them run
I can appreciate that, what I have planed is a yard and maintenance theme, where I can come in and build a train up, sent them over the scales, run it a round for a bit and then bring it back to the yard and tare it down and send the cars for maintenance and or Loco's for fuel/repair, change things around and build up another train and do it all over.
I guess you can say, to each there own. ;) :)
Les
For a layout of this size I would reduce the number of stalls in the roundhouse and also the turntable serving too many tracks.
This would give you more space for industry or a small townsite.
Les, Do what you want! It's your railroad. Have fun. If I could afford one, I'd buy a big turntable and make a complex service center.
Quote from: pdlethbridge on February 28, 2010, 12:25:48 AM
Les, Do what you want! It's your railroad. Have fun. If I could afford one, I'd buy a big turntable and make a complex service center.
He did ask 'What do you think so I assume he wanted inputs
uncbob:
YOU ARE CORRECT, I do want everybody's input, ether good or bad and then from there reply's I take the parts I think would work for me or parts I like. I've been on enough forums to know that most reply's are taken with a grain assault and are the ideas of the one writing it. So keep the comments coming. ;D
Pacific Northern:
Thanks for your input, this is just an over all plan of what I want to achieve and it's going to take a long while to build and will most likely change as it progresses and I come up with new ideas.
Pdlethbridge:
Thanks, I will have fun. I've been watching the train just go around and around on the oval I have and it gets boring for me, that's why I want a set-up that going to keep me interested and busy anytime I run it.
Thanks all :)
Les
Dear lescar,
Will you have access all around the layout? It'll be a pretty long reach (over 6 feet to upper right outside curve) if you don't.
You might want to leave your roundhouse roofs removable. (Don't glue them down.)
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe:
Thanks for the tip, and yes, I'm designing the bench work with caster's so it can be moved around the garage so access should not be to much of a problem (I hope). :-\ Can you expound a little more on the roof part, I'm assuming it's for accessibility but I'm a little unclear why I would need it, a few examples would be real nice.
Thanks :)
Les
Dear Les,
Yes, it is for accessibility.
It would allow you to retrieve derailed or incapacitated roundhouse engines from the back side of the layout.
Otherwise, you would have to crawl onto your layout, reach over your turntable and into the front of your roundhouse to get at them.
To keep beer bellies from crushing rolling stock on nearby track, John Armstrong recommends no more than 24" to the furthest track from an edge.
I think that most people are a bit taller than when John wrote the first edition of his book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation (3rd edition is the latest), and I have a 6' wingspan and a heavy duty belt, so I think I can get away with 30" reach.
(This allows me to break John's rules in my recommendation of 5' (=60") wide ping-pong tables (= 30" reach) when accessible from both long sides.)
Your furthest reach is 33-1/2" to the edge of the turntable pit leading in to the most clock-wise roundhouse stall.
Find a table top at the height you are going to build, throw down a yardstick and see what your comfortable reach length is...
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe:
Understanding the why really helps, 8) The layout is going to be about 40" high with the casters and me being 5'7" and Farley skinny, so the beer belly is not to much of a problem. ;D
With the layout being movable will help with the reaching and having a good step stool will also allow a little more reach, I think I should be able to reach the center (I hope). Will soon find out, in the next week or so I'll start the new framework.
Thanks again :)
Les
You can make some small removable plexiglass "walls" to guard the straightaways. There is information in the April MR, or maybe it's the March RMC. Also, a 12" turntable is nominally 90' in HO, plus there's a fudge factor since the wheelbase is considerably less than the total length of a locomotive, so you should be just fine with the smaller turntable. That will free up a surprising amount of space (and money, too).
Dear Les,
A step stool ... AND an overhead monkey bar....(Cue chimpanzee scream sound effect).
Prone gantry idea (to extend reach):
Feet head
----------------
l/
l layout---------------(side view)
l\
O----------O
wheels
Hmm. Reminds me a little bit of a grocery shopping cart..
Skinny? ....Just wait (weight) a few years...
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Actually Somebody does make a moveable device for extending over layouts whereby one can leanover in a prone position to reach distant objects. It is like a cross between a moveable staircase & an engine removal crane . It is painted bright red and I can't remember where I saw the article , it was in a catalog. It might have been in the Walter's reference catalog. John II.
Quote from: Jhanecker2 on March 04, 2010, 05:37:40 PM
Actually Somebody does make a moveable device for extending over layouts whereby one can leanover in a prone position to reach distant objects ...
Yes I've seen a picture of it in a model rr magazine.
Robert
Dear John,
It's the "Topside Creeper" and it's available from Micro-Mark:
http://www.micromark.com/TOPSIDE-CREEPER-STEP-LADDER-SUPPORT-SYSTEM,8854.html
Remember, Dave not included!
Have fun!
the Bach-man
keep in mind you shouldn't really have the roof of the roundhouse glued, you should keep it free so you go in there from the top to 'rescue' a loco
Doneldon:
Yes, I've been looking at using acrylic for when it's all done, but for now 1/8" flex board around the edges raised 2" above the layout just enough to protect the trains from falling and stuff from being knocked off.
As for the turntable, the Walters I'm planning on using (130', 933-2829) is actually a little cheaper then the 90' on the few site's I've researched, as was suggested earlier in this post by hotrainlover, plan for later expansion so I wont need to re-buy. If things go as planned and as time progresses it will become bigger. The turntable is down the road a ways anyway.
Quote from: Joe Satnik on March 04, 2010, 01:38:31 PM
A step stool ... AND an overhead monkey bar....(Cue chimpanzee scream sound effect).
Joe:
Vary funny but not to bad of an idea especially with my lack of good balance, ::) ;D and hopefully I won't need anything like the topside creeper for a while, I would buy it, if Dave was included. Once I get the framework built, I can figure out what I can use safely and go from there.
Quote from: Joe Satnik on March 04, 2010, 01:38:31 PM
Skinny? ....Just wait (weight) a few years...
As for the few years, I'll let you in on a little secret, I'll be the BIG 50 in August. (god I'm getting old). :o But not as old as some here, which equals out in experience. ;)
Ryeguyisme:
Yes Joe explained to me about the roof should not be secured and will probably not secure any of the roof's that have track going inside.
Thanks all
Les