Quote
I am especially concerned that certain people have mentioned that Soundtraxx's Sierra sound system is "old technology on it's last legs." If true, Tsunami would seem to be my only option if I want to stay with Soundtraxx so you see my dilemna. (I, of course, can go with Phoenix but then we get into the $$$ issue and if I have to pay extra $$$ for a "Quasinami" only to have it ripped out so I can add a Phoenix so my r/c system will work properly.... embarrassed
  I'm not trying to cause trouble or a flame war but I and others on the largescale websites have some legitimate concerns about this new system and I was hoping to get a clarification if possible. Thanks!

Steve/ Matthew

It is clear the some have misinterpreted the intent of my message on another forum.  I deeply apologize for any confusion generated. I never meant to ever imply that Soundtraxx would ever discontinue its Sierra line of products. Its a great product line.  I should note that the Sierra is the sound unit of choice on my railroad and I am currently in the process of installing two more units.

There are however issues with the Sierra including the need to use an external voltage regulator and opto isolators in order to use Sierra with many Radio and DCC units.  There are also a growing number of other great sound units in the market or announced by others. The new technology in the microcontroller market allow products to be much smaller, have many more features and cost less.  My only point was that the Sierra product needs a facelift.   I am very confident that the Sierra line will continue and we can expect great things in the future from Soundtraxx

As for the Bachmann Sound on Board decoder based on Tsumani technology, it is clear that this product is not designed in its current form to support the radio control market. There are no external triggers for the sound functions, nor ability to independently control the whistle or bell in DC mode.  I would expect however that just as there are users that do not want this DCC decoder there are others that would love to add one to their 2 truck shay.  If you want a model now that only comes with a Sound on Board decoder, its takes only a few minutes to remove the decoder and I am sure you can sell it on Ebay.

We in the Large Scale community are fortunate that we have so many excellent forms of control that we can choose from.  No system is best for all users.  Hopefully in the future the model manufacturers can do more to make it easy for us to use the control system of choice and the control market make it easier to transition between these various control systems.

Stan Ames

Not to break into all this great humor but I just got off the phone with Dave and would like to answer his specific questions.  These tests are on the unit I have and some variability can be expected.

1) Does Bachmann intend its E-Z Command to be used for Large Scale.

Answer.  On the back of the unit there is a switch.  In one position it says 14V N/HO/OO/On30 .  In the other position the label says 18V LS/G.  To prevent accidentally moving the switch it is locked in the HO setting until you move a protective locking plate.  Given this label I believe it is fair to assume that Bachmann intended that this unit be used for Large Scale use.

2) What is the resistive load overload for the unit.

Answer:  On a bench indoors at normal room temperature  into a resistive load the booster will normally deliver about 6.2/6.4 amps before shutdown:  Note the resistive load I have is hard to adjust accurately at this level so the real level could be another 1/2 amp or so higher. Note a resistive load is not exactely what the same system will see on a real layout.

3) What is the voltage under various loads into a resistive load,

Answer 1: Switch in the 14V HO setting

Unloaded - 15 Volts DCC
1A -    14.5 Volts DCC
2A -    14.3 Volts DCC
3A-     14 Volts DCC
4A-     13.4 Volts DCC
5A-     13 volts DCC
6A-     12.3 Volts DCC

Answer 2: Switch in the 18 volt setting

Unloaded:  17.8 volts DCC
1A-     17.5 Volts DCC
2A-     16.9 Volts DCC
3A-     16.5 Volts DCC
4A-     16.1 Volts DCC
5A-    15.5 Volts DCC
6A-    14.6Volts DCC


4) Is this voltage drop normal

Answer.  In many systems this type of voltage drop is typical.

5) Is this voltage correct for Large Scale -

Answer: There seems to be one school of thought that says 18 volts is best for Large Scale,  Another school feels that 20-24 volts is best and there are now some locomotives that prefer up to 35 volts.  I am in the 20-24 volt camp.  Bachmann locomotives work fine at the lower voltages.  In my opinion the 35 volt level is of questionability safety,

6) Can this system be used effectively for running a few Bachmann locomotives in Large Scale

Answer:  Based on my experience I would say yes.  If you have a large outdoor layout and have the room and grades to really load some of these locomotives down to their full potential (wheel slip) then the amp draw will increase. On smaller layouts running shorter trains the amp draw for a locomotive is much less then its wheel slip load. The Bachmann E-Z Command system is designed for one to three users and is tethered to the layout.  For these types of layouts with 9 or less Bachmann large scale locomotives operation 2-4 at a time, the system appears to perform well.

As with any DCC system if you get near the limits and have frequent shutdowns due to overloads then its time to consider a second power station.

Now back to the humor.

Stan Ames

Quote
In reply to your reply to my reply to your reply, "guessing" as to current output of the EZ Command station is not good.
You have no way to place your ammeter in-line between the control station and trck and add load until it smokes or shuts down?

Dave

Tonys Train Exchange produces what they refer to as a Ramp Meter which is both a amp meter and a volt meter that is used with DCC.

This device was inserted between the output of the E-Z Command booster and the track.  The measured results are as reported in my first message on this thread. 

I actually have some experience with measuring the output of this unit using both resistive loads and actual track loads.  Its limit is indeed the switching power supply.  I could build an adaptor and hook the power station up to a 15 amp switching power supply to determine exactly its limits but using it as intended from the manufacturer is better for this type of discussion.

The AMP ratings the manufacturers provide mean very different things and with no defined and consistent definition and testing environment it is somewhat difficult to compare them.  One needs to define both average long term current, peak current, and shutdown current with the time for shutdown.  Also the type and characters of the load also come into play.

And no I do not oil my track  and no I also have no need to clean my track either.  Stainless Steel track only needs to be wiped down to avoid getting the grit into the motor drives and with the conversion I am doing to Hybrid Drive (DCC with Battery Backup) the Brass track will not need cleaning as well.

And yes your Amp draw calculations are accurate as are my reported actual use. If the voltage did not drop the amp reading would likely have been very similar.

Stan

Dave

I will try to answer your questions.

Quote
Just for clarification, is this using the EZ Command or the system you use?
If the 5 amp is driving the trains, and you're drawing 6.7 amps, maybe this is some of that "special" amps we've heard about.

For this test I used pure Bachmann power.  I used an  E-Z Command System connected to an E-Z Command 5 Amp Power Booster set for 18 volts DCC.  Both items come with their own power supplies which I also used.  I was using a section of the layout that has Stainless Steel rail and I have found that wheels will slip much easier on this rail then the softer Aluminum rail.

There is no standard for how a manufacturer rates the power output of a device.  The Bachmann 5 amp booster compares well in power output to what some systems call an 8 amp booster.  The real limit in the setup appears to be the Switching power supply they use.  I have not tried to hook up a more powerful switching supply to see what the real limiting factor is.  A very key aspect of any power station (booster) is how well it handles short term surge currents (such as sometimes found in startup of locomotives) and some do a lot better then others in this regard.

Quote
Okay, less voltage into a given load, less amps, unless of course we have a new dcc-friendly Ohm's Law.
Looks like the system is somewhat self-protecting.
Good!
That 4-4-0 must be a real rocketship on 13v.

I prefer a power station that can maintain its voltage at the load I intend to use it at.  I was clearly intentionally stressing the Bachmann unit beyond its specified design limits to make a point. One less locomotive and the voltage was acceptable.  I have a large railroad and 4 power districts (only really need 2 or 3 at present but I am still growing).  I run my layout at 21-22 volts DCC which is a higher voltage then the Bachmann unit can supply.

The 4-4-0 performed well at the low voltage as I do not run the locomotives fast anyway.

For most users who have up to 9 DCC Bachmann Locomotives and want to run 3 or 4 max at a time the Bachmann system will perform just fine.

For those that want more power, a good 10 amp booster is in my opinion better and for those that want to run a lot more locomotives at a time a higher end system is likely useful as well.

Stan

Since the other EZ Command for large scale thread seems to have digressed into  another radio vrs DCC debate I thought I would start a new thread to answer the question of what one might expect in using the EZ Command with 5 amp booster for large Scale.

Today I shoveled off a section of the layout to try it out.

I ran out of locomotives at the low addresses before I ran out of power.

I had three trains running.

On the plow train I had a Heisler, a 3 truck Shay with DCC Sound on Board, and  2 truck Shay.  The second train had a unconverted 45 ton loco and the third was a 4-4-0 passenger train.  The grade was 2%.  That's 10 motors.

Using a Tonys meter the amp draw  was around 6.7 and the voltage dropped from 18 to around 13.

To increase the amperage draw I reversed the direction of the three truck shay and ran all the locos at full speed.  This caused wheel slippage. The practical limit for this system is the voltage drop which under such a high load is a little low for Large Scale.

Stan Ames

I must admit I am confused by TrainDudes answer.

Yes you can use EZ Command to run the 3 truck shay that comes with a Bachmann Sound on Board DCC decoder. Yes you will need to also have the 5 amp booster (power station).  No need to change out the Bachmann decoder and grades are not a problem. (not sure where this rumor came from)

Not sure how many locomotives you can run at the same time with the Bachmann 5 amp unit in part because there is no standard for amp rating and Bachmanns 5 amps is a lot more then others 5 amps.  There is still a lot of hard wet snow on the layout but perhaps if there is interest I can power up the layout on Saturday and send out a plow train and power it with an EZ Command plus 5 amp booster.

Stan

A good deal of DCC users have a track voltage of between 20 and 22 volts DCC.

The DCC standards call for a max track voltage of 22 volts DCC.

The Bachmann 3 truck Shay (like all Bachmann sound on board products) will shut down with a DCC voltage of greater then 21 Volts DCC.

if you have an MTS system you likely will have to lower the DCC track voltage depending on what input voltage you  are providing.

http://www.atlasrr.com/voltage.htm

The above link shows how this is easily done.  For Large Scale simply use higher amperage rectifiers. It does not make any difference if these are high speed or low speed diodes, any rectifier of suitable amperage will work just fine.

If like me your DCC track voltage is within spec but higher then the 3 truck allows then you can use the same trick but this time the rectifier is placed inside the shay.

Install one on the red or black wire before the decoder and all should be fine.

Stan Ames

Interesting thread.  I operate for the most part in DCC but then most of you already knew that.  I also have live steam which in time I will also convert to DCC.

As the prices continue to drop and the quality for the low end stuff continues to improve in time most new modelers will likely start off in DCC.  But that is just an opinion.

Stan Ames

The auto play does not have the print feature.  Try this.  After the Auto play starts Press the ESC key.

That brings you back to the normal Adobe screen and allows you to print.

I also found that you could manually open up the disk.  The PDF file is in the \autoplay\docs folder.  If you open this file from Adove directy you can print from it.

Hope that helps.

Stan Ames