My recent thread titled "DC or DCC?" received positive comments on both sides of the issue. Now I would like to take it to the next level. I enjoy my EZ Command as I like to just park one train and run another. Ten addresses is plenty for my small roster of locomotives.
Though I don't intend to buy a more advanced controller in the near future, I have read through the manuals for NCE Power Cab, MRC Advanced, and just starting to peruse the Zephyr. My only purpose is to keep up with the latest technology.
It used to be that the guy with the most toys wins, now it includes the one with the most buttons to push. Reminds me of the commercial, a guy had 50 fishing poles lined up at the dock, someone asked him what he was after and he replied, "I want it all".
No brand comparisons please, my question is very direct: Excluding sound and more control over throttle functions, what benefits would I have by buying a more advanced unit? They all have features, I'm referring to Benefits. Every salesman knows the difference. In other words, how would these units add to my enjoyment in running my trains? I may play "devil's advocate" (DA) with some comments, but I seriously want to know. Maybe I'm missing something.
Feature: "A special sales inducement" i.e. You can adjust CVs.
Benefit: "An advantage" i.e. How does that improve my (your) enjoyment?
Bob
Bob
I too have researched the DCC products available . Unless I intend to have a group of friends over to run trains I can see no benefit to go into operation of a more complex system. My layout isn't big enough to run many trains at once ,two maybe three at the most. EZ Command supplys all of my needs .Besides I don't think my mind can handle anything too complex anymore.
Don
One manual had a page on adjusting throttle curves, with a note at the bottom "An easy steady hand can give the same effects without adjusting CVs"
We hear a lot about being prototypical. A real engineer has a throttle, brake, horn, and a switch to dim the lights. Does having all these other features and related benefits make one a "Super Engineer"?
Bob
Bob,
If you want easy to use wireless DCC you should look at Easy DCC by CVP. It allows simple loco selection from the handheld without pluging in. And their system allows for complete CV ajustment, etc. Also all units are ungradeable with replacement chips as things advance from what I remember.
If I, the somewhat anti DCC guy, was going to use DCC, CVP Products would be the ONLY choice.
See what they have to offer at www.cvpusa.com
Sheldon
Another thought, someone mentioned that if a friend brought a loco to run on my track that had a 2 or 4 digit address, he couldn't run it on my EZC.
According to the EZC manual, (page 3) one can take a loco with an address higher than 10, for that matter even an unknown address, and change it to a number from 1 to 10. The programming sequence is actually done without the loco on the track, and completed automatically when the loco is placed on the track. The procedure first returns the loco to the original default of 3, then allows you to either run on 3 or change to another address. I did this on a loco that I forgot to record the addess, and it does work.
Any CV changes my friend may have made would remain as programmed, so he could operate his loco as though he were using his own controller.
Bob
Bob,
Except now your friend has to put his original address back when he returns to his home layout.
Personally I like the Zephyr with the direction/brake lever for mainline running, and the Atlas Commander for working in yards and large industrial areas. The direction buttons on the commander make is simple to do the "Kadee Shuffle" over the magnet when uncoupling knuckle couplers.
Len
Without discussing the merits of different brands, there are a few features on advanced models that I have preconceived problems with.
Before I flip the power switch on my DC unit, or plug in the wall unit of my EZC, I always glance at the throttle knob. They both have positive stops with an arrow that assures me the throttle is down.
On some "advanced" units the throttle has no stop, no knob indicator arrow or mark, so one has no idea of throttle setting until the unit is turned on, and viewed in the display. One model even has a "yard" mode, where the throttle controls forward and reverse similar to a hydrostatic drive. I think this may have merits, but personally would prefer at least a slight detent at the off position.
Without the detent, and without looking at the display, I wouldn't know if the throttle is completely off, or if it might be at the threshold of actual starting voltage.
Even while running, the display shows an arbitary throttle setting. No definitive value, just "Speed 102" for example. 102 What? Speed step? Miles per hour? I think either a single or multiple bar graph would seem more appropriate.
Give me a detent, and a display my poor eyes can see, and I might be tempted to buy one.
Those who have such units, such as Prodigy and Power Cab (the only ones I have researched) feel free to weigh in with your comments on the infinite throttle. Remember to state "benefits" which is the main purpose of this thread.
Bob
Bob,
Most of the DCC guys in our group use Digitrax, and I complain constantly about the very same thing on their full featured throttle. No "off" position, just that endless turning. I want to be looking at the train, not at numbers on a display.
The DCC system I recommended earlier in this thread has an old fashioned speed knob that "stops" at off. Digitrax does have their utility throttle, and if I must operate a digitrax layout, I allways try to get the UT throttle if one is available.
I have really come to like the push button operation of the Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles I am using in DC. Since pushbutton throttles where quite popular in the early days of Walk Around Memory throttles, I am surprised that more DCC throttles are not this way. I believe at least one, NEC?, has this option.
Old fashined knobs that stop, or pushputtons for me, so I can operate it while looking at the train, not at the display.
Sheldon
Bob,
PS: The Bach Man has no problem with the polite and adult discusson of different brands - for this we are deeply thankful to him. In a hobby where dozens of different brands of componants must interact together, any discussion is bound to include such comparisons.
Sheldon
For me, the two major advantages of the more advanced system are (1) group operation where my railroading buddies and I get together to run the railroad; and (2) the ease of adding a locomotive to get the tonnage over the mountain division and dropping it off when no longer needed.
I did some research on the hand held remotes . My personal opinion is that that the Aristocraft is probably the best for a small layout . The other one I like is the one made by CVPoducts. Do we have another opinion out there somewhere.
Don :-\
Hang on. Best? From my observation and use of 3 systems, plus a lot of reading up on the others, there is no "perfect" system. I will not state which one I ended up using, only to say that each system has its pluses and minuses, and their relative importance varies depending on the users preferences. In my case, the system I chose was the one that had the most pluses FOR ME. My other DCC using friends use other systems because that is what suits them.
We're still friends, and we still happily play trains together. So, which plus is important for you?
Steve Magee
Newcastle NSW Aust
Steve,
I agree completely that it is a user preferance thing, but I see nothing wrong in saying " I like brand X because of this and this".
or
"I don't care for brand Y because of this".
It gives people info to consider that they might not otherwise have until they buy the one that is wrong for them.
Sheldon
Bob:
This have found thread is very informative for a newcomer such as myself. I have been fighting the temptation to buy the biggest and baddest Controller, one that will even sing to you.
This thread makes me pause and "THINK" which is very good. What do I really need verses what do I want?
It is the threads of this nature that help hopeless newcomers as myself learn to avoid mistakes.
I am personaly gratefull to all on this board that have threads out like this. Ones that help people make rational practical decisions. I have wisely chosen to listen and read all I can before I jump into it. The people on this board have already saved me from some very costly mistakes both monetarily and timewise.
So while most of you guys are old hands at this and can do this stuff blindfolded do not forget the "RUBES" we do appreciated learning fron you guys.
Redtail67
Bob, I think I should have explained more fully about the ease of adding a locomotive using DCC. Back in my dc days I used to have to stop a train with the front coupler of the locomotive exactly at the gaps between blocks, then back on an extra locomotive, couple up, throw some toggle switches, and only then be ready to go. With simple DCC, I have only Basic Consisting available. So I have to use the same method as with dc with the added restriction that the extra locomotive has the same address as the one already on the train OR I have to use two throttles, one for each locomotive, for the whole time the helper is on the train. The latter is realistic for steam if you think in terms of two crews, but is hardly MUing in any sense of the term for diesels.
If I have Universal Consisting available, I can back on the extra locomotive using a second throttle, then MU the units onto a single throttle. And I can do this any place on the layout that I want.
With Advanced Consisting, I can do much the same at Universal Consisting, but I can do it on the fly using only one throttle.
Another way that a full featured DCC system can increase your model railroading enjoyment is when it comes to MUing mismatched units. Not all trains are/were run with matched units. Around my part of the world, we used to see things like a GP-38 at the point, a boarded up F-9 running backwards behind it, and perhaps an old Alco blowing smoke from every crack and crevice coming up the rear. I am sure not every one gets their jollies by running a P2K GP-38 plus A Bachmann F-7 plus an Atlas/Kato RS-3 as a consist, but for those that do, speed tables and a way to program them make it all possible.
Having said all that, one thing that works better with E-Z Command than with any other system is adding a pusher. On approaching a long hill, you can set the train's speed, then flick over to a pusher with a single push of one button. Careful speed control lets you bring the pusher up behind the train and help it up the hill. At the top of the hill, you can reverse the pusher and back it down the hill while the train carries on. No need to stop at all, as long as the front coupler is modified to be non-latching. With the pusher safely out of the way, you can switch back to the train, again with one push of one button. With high end systems that require punching in a four digit address and several more buttons each time you switch between locomotives, you really need two throttles for this operation.
Jim, thanks for the input, especially about the pusher. I pasted your post to my "logbook". Score 1 for the EZC.
When you run a consist with one throttle, then I assume you first program the 2 locos for more precise speed matching?
If running a consist with separate throttles, do you determine the speeds required by watching the coupler action, by sound, or by some other visual reference?
A typical consist here in coal country is a minimum of 8, 3 on each end and 2 in the middle. The curves throuh the valley are too tight for the larger diesels, so they use 4 axles. Once it reaches Phippsburg, then they are handed off to larger units, and head back to the mines with emptys, usually 100 or more.
How would you handle such a consist, or is it even possible?
As a matter of interest, over 100 million tons of high btu coal are hauled from Peabody/Kennicott each year. Some of it is taken to Wyoming to mix with their low btu grade, most goes east. The local Tri-State plant has their own mine next door. A 100 ton load of coal has a burn time of about 20 minutes. With my low power system, I can only run 2 locos and 20 cars, the rest just has to be imagined.
Bob
Quote from: Yampa Bob on March 03, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
When you run a consist with one throttle, then I assume you first program the 2 locos for more precise speed matching?
Bob
Yes, unless the locomotives are already similar enough that they can run together.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on March 03, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
If running a consist with separate throttles, do you determine the speeds required by watching the coupler action, by sound, or by some other visual reference?
Bob
Usually by coupler action. I speed up the lead locomotive until the couplers are under tension. If they are already under tension, I slow the lead locomotive until the couplers go into compression, then speed it up again to put them back in tension.
Running pusher service with two throttles is relatively easy. You keep pushing just enough to keep the train moving. If the train stalls, you aren't pushing hard enough. If the train walks away from the pusher, then the pusher is no longer needed or wasn't necessary in the first place.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on March 03, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
A typical consist here in coal country is a minimum of 8, 3 on each end and 2 in the middle. The curves throuh the valley are too tight for the larger diesels, so they use 4 axles. Once it reaches Phippsburg, then they are handed off to larger units, and head back to the mines with emptys, usually 100 or more.
How would you handle such a consist, or is it even possible?
Bob
I couldn't do it on my layout but I suspect it might be possible on a layout with much more generous curves. Speed matching all eight locomotives would likely work at low speeds in spite of there being two places in the train where the couplers would likely be in "neutral" i.e. not in tension and not in compression. Using three throttles might actually work better as all the couplers could be kept in tension all the time (I believe that is the target on full size trains with mid engine helpers.) I have had some success taking 40 car trains up a 4% helix with 18" radius using two locomotives on the point and two more 2/3 of the way back. Fun to do, but derailments, when they occur, are never minor.
I HAD EASY COMMAND AT FIRST, THEN A FRIEND AT THE LOCAL HOBBY SHOP TOLD ME ABOUT MRC-PRODIGY ADVANCE 2
SEE I HAVE ALOT OF ENGINES AND I WANTED TO LABEL THEN BY THE NUMBER ON THE ENGINES. WITH THE MRC YOU CAN DO START SPEED AND SLOW DOWN SPEEDS AND ALOT OF OTHER THINGS TOO.
WITH EASY COMMAND YOU CAN ONLY PROGRAM THE ADDRESS FROM 1 TO 9
I HAVE A 300 SQUARE FOOT ALAY OUT AND I FOUND THAT THE EASY COMMAND WAS OK AT FIRST, ONLY THEN I FOUND THAT I NEEDED MORE SPACE TO PROGRAM MY ENGINES.
BUT ITS UP TO YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO RUN YOUR TRAINS. I AM GLAD THAT I MOVED TO A BETTER CONTROLER.
HONESTABE58
READING PA.