hello,
I've been reading for quite some time now, & I see alot of requests for:
Pacifics - 4-6-2
Big Boys - 4-8-8-4
Challengers - 4-6-6-4
Berkshires - 2-8-4
Diesels - too numberous to mention.
Why is everyone requesting locomotives that have been produced & reproduced over & over by many other companies? What happened to the obscure & overlooked steam & diesel locomotives, that I can't seem to find a good model of, ANYWHERE.
How about:
A Mogul, 2-6-0 with full Walcherts valve gear for the folks that do SP, or a few New England roads?
OR
re-do the 2-6-2 Prairie into a less wobbley model?
OR
how bout a 2 axle Plymouth Switcher? Maybe a Davenport?
OR
how about the cherished 4-8-0? Instead of only having the option to buy it in the rare brass model, make a Spectrum one? Lots of roads had them, not just the N&W. ;)
I will admit to wanting a 2-10-4, but in all reality, some of us just don't have that kind of radius to be able to model.
Any thoughts, or am I talking to empty space? ;)
bob
Bob,
I like what your saying and it makes sense. I would love for a spectrum 4-8-0(it doesn’t have to be in just N&W paint as long as they offer it ;). I have been investigating other forums and there seems to be a common theme, a good model of a 4-8-0. Brass is too expensive and way too hard to find. If Bachmann produced these they would sell like hotcakes. I do disagree with you on one point, a good pacific is hard to find. Sure IHC has its version and BLI is coming out with one in the near future, but a spectrum pacific would be nice.
-Brad
Actually, we don't have a lot of good models of Pacifics. We have a lot of models of the PRR K4. We could use a good USRA, Harriman, or catalog Pacific. The Challengers and Big Boys are the result of hype. The 2-8-4 is the result of several eastern roads having essentially the same locomotive - a rarity amongst modern steam.
The 4-8-0 may have been common - and I'm not sure it was - but the other roads 4-8-0 probably bore little resemblance to the N&W M-1.
Gene
I suggested locos that no one seems to produce. I have an old 1989 2-6-2 that still runs good, but could really use a make over. With today's technology, a Prairie could be the next show-stopper, much like how the shay was back when it came out.
I left one off my list, because it might be in production, or not, as I've heard different things, I left off the 2 truck Heisler.
The 4-8-0 N&W version gets alot of photos, but GN, Texas & I forget had some, & alot of early 1900's still had them on the rosters.
Bob
Well, one reason is that we're realists. Sure, I'd love a Pennsy P5a modified or Milwaukee EF-1, but I'm realilistic enough to admit that Bachmann will never make them. Bachmann is one of the giants in model trains, and they are focused more on mainstream, mass produced products. It makes good bussiness sense. A GP-9 sells everywhere. A NYC S-motor sells only in New York City and among electric wackos like me.
Bachmann has enough capital and connections that they can effectively sell thousands of GP-9's across the country. To get more obscure models, you will have to look for small manufacturers that do not have the capital and connections to truly mass-produce locomotives, and are thus forced by necessity to make obscure models. And they are out there. Island Model Works, for example, specializes in Long Island RR equipment. They can do that because Long Island is a small area where their very limited time and capital need to be focused on. Bachmann doesn't have that limitation, so why not go with the GP-9 that will have near-guarunteed profits, rather than the much-riskier NYC S-motor?
Okay, point is: we don't often request obscure models, because Bachmann, because of it's position in the model train market, is unlikely to produce them. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Quote from: Conrail Quality on December 20, 2007, 07:05:25 PM
Okay, point is: we don't often request obscure models, because Bachmann, because of it's position in the model train market, is unlikely to produce them. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Good Point!
Bachmann UK & Hornby announced, they were going to build the same LMS 4-6-0 loco, with BR variants & rebuilds. This would have been a financial 'Kick in the Teeth' to both companies. As Bachmann US, MTH & BLi must clearly understand, with their PRR K-4.
But, to get into the spirit of the thread,....
I'd like an Atlantic, or two or three.
A UP 2-12-2, if it gets around a 30" radius curve.
& perhaps, a Spectrum quality early 4-4-0 [Definitely].
There is not a real 2-6-2 made unless it is brass. Bachmann made a 2-6-2 out of a 0-6-0. MDC made a 2-6-2 using this part and that part and ended up with an ATSF, SP, PRR.
So why did Bachmann offer the N&W J in about 10 different guises, and the auxiliary tenders in four different guises no less? Or the SP GS-4? Or the very Pennsy specific K-4? There were a LOT more 4-8-0's, even N&W specific, than there ever were Js.
How did BLI decide to start their business off with the N&W Class A, and even more specifically the 38 pre-roller bearing version examples only? Again with auxiliary tender(s), in DC and DCC guise this time?
Why did Bachmann offer the N&W 4-8-2 in pre-war guise, when post war is 10 times more popular?
How did LL Proto manage to offer the VIRGINIAN 2-8-4 (although I will be FOREVER grateful), when there were FIVE (5) prototypes?
The truth is, whoever holds the power to make THE decision in ALL the model manufacturing/distributing companies; they make exactly what they want, when they want, and they BARELY give a you know what, what we as a group think.
I am not raisng TOO much hell, being as how I am a VGN/N&W guy, but some of you have to be getting frustrated? And yeah, I still want a good N&W Class M from somebody.
There is no LOGICAL answer, other than the Golden Rule. Them that's got the gold, makes the rules.
NOW, I've got a PROBLEM!! Every time anyone posts anything even remotely "RELIGIOUS", it is DELETED; now, here is a "QUESTION TO THE 'MASSES'" and nothing has been said! :'(
Well, I'm here as a voice in the wilderness to cry out that MOST of us are PROTESTANTS, and that means that we are PROTESTING (NOT MASSING!)!!
PLEASE take this into concideration, and be more RESPECTIVE when you ask your questions!
THANK YOU!... and GOOD DAY!!
ERNEST C. DUKES
Take two of the blue ones, Ernie.....it'll be fine. :D
Happy Hannukah.
Sid
To Mr. Dukes:
When I started this thread, it was not to "Raise Hell" as has been made the point., I was stating a fact: There's a demand for locomotives that darn near everyone else already makes. I was stepping into the proverbial fray by suggesting locomotives that most folks DON'T make, as suggestion for the modellers who, like me, just don't have the space for a "big" locomotive. I have a fair collection of "big" locomotives. They all look nice.........on the shelf. I'd like one I could actually put a use to.
Also, what part of my original post was "religious"? & I was quite polite in asking/stating a long trend that I saw appearing on this board for quite some time.
Thanks,
& relax y'all, I'm not a crazy person. Just looking for a few good answers :)
Bob
Bob,
I agree with you - more small, decent steam is needed. The only thing I can see religious is changed "masses" to "Masses" - another name for the Eucharist. BTW, almost everybody thinks that everybody else known belongs to the same faith, which is not true.
Gene
It goes without saying that the major manufacturers have to produce those engines that they feel will have the broadest appeal. An obscure engine might really please one road's modelers, but won't do much for anyone else.
I'd guess that the Class A was popular because of its stint as an excursion engine, not just because of its N&W heritage. The same may very well be true of Bachmann's offerings of both the NKP 765 & 759; both of them have seen a lot of excursion service and more recent exposure than engines ran 50+ years ago.
Like most other model railroaders, I really like to see "big steam" on a layout. Even if that particular locomotive's appearance needs to be altered to fit on tighter curves or if it doesn't look "right' on a smaller pike. But the reality is that sooner or later, when you go to fill out your power roster, you realize that you are more in need of the smaller locos than the big ones. To that end, I'd join the chorus of those asking for the Atlantics, the Moguls, the Praries, the Consols and the Twelve Wheelers. And, unlike a lot of others, I'm willing to accept a good generic model as opposed to one that is road specific.
The one engine I'd really like to see? How about one that resembles the Mantua 4-6-0 Southern Belle?) with the unevenly spaced drivers. That with an updated drive, flywheel, some options to date it & some neat electronics... there goes my model rr budget!
dlm
Well here I go again ;D (sorry Gene)
What would be wrong with Bachmann (or anyone, for that matter) producing a 'generic' Harriman 4-6-2 and a 'generic' Harriman 2-8-2. Most modelers would happily make necessary 'kit bashing' changes for road specific locomotives if they had the right boiler/cab shape to begin with.
Happy and very blessed Christmas/holiday/New Years to all,
lanny
No problem, Lanny. I agree that a Harriman would be great for those west of the the Mississippi.
Gene
Bob,
A few thoughts -
I follow this board fairly closely (It is one of only two I ever read), and this has been discussed quite a bit in the recent and distant past.
I have noticed no great out cry for any more large locos, and certainly not the ones that are already on the market. Sure, there is the occasional post from some new poster, usually a younger person, saying "Is Bachmann going to make a Big Boy" because they are new and not familiar with what is available from other brands, and, a few people are still wanting their "favorite" that has not been made yet.
But mostly the requests have been for small and medium sized locos and just because Bachmann makes a PRR K4, does not mean the "Pacific" has been covered. As the single most popular passenger power in North America, the different styles/versions of Pacifics yet to be modeled is endless.
The locos you listed are nice for small layouts, but in the big picture of steam loco history they do not represent a broad appeal.
The following locos would make more sense and sell better to a larger number of modelers:
More DIFFERENT Mikado's - there are only a few USRA examples on the market and this was the 4th most plentiful wheel arrangement in the world. And since most had small drivers (63" was most common), they are only slighly bigger than a 2-8-0 and are well suited to small layouts.
More DIFFERENT Pacific's - there are only a few unique examples (too many K4's)on the market and this was the most plentiful passenger wheel arrangement.
Modern 10 Wheelers - also very popular with many railroads - and lasted to the end of steam - 3rd most plentiful wheel arrangement!
Atlantics - The passeger race horses of the 20's and 30's - many of which also lasted to near the end.
More DIFFERENT 2-8-0's - The single most popular wheel arrangement ever - and there are only one or two model versions out there?
As to your choices - the right Mogul would do OK, they where reasonably popular, but except for a few isolated exceptions, Prairie's were rare and short lived except for small branch lines. The 4-8-0 is a really rare bird, only about 600 ever made (compared to 17,000 Ten Wheelers or 33,000 2-8-0's) and only used by a few roads.
So, as I repeat a lot of this for the 364th time, everyone should know what locos I am wanting to see in the future.
Sheldon
Bob,
A quick look through a data base of steam locos in North America shows only the following roads with 4-8-0's
NP, GN, N&W, NYC, SP
And as I said, only about 600 copies of a designs in that wheel arrangement. That's not a wide appeal by any means.
Sheldon
Ram - the MDC 2-6-2 is a different model from their 0-6-0 switcher - it has bigger diameter drivers and the frame is longer. Both are based on ATSF prototypes. Just remember that the originals came out after WWII so the tooling is not up to today's standards.
If you take the time to install a can motor the MDC engines run quite well.
to AC:
as you say : ""A quick look through a data base of steam locos in North America shows only the following roads with 4-8-0's
NP, GN, N&W, NYC, SP"
West to East coast. Covers a vast area.
Different 2-8-2, or 4-6-2, aren't likely because they also "only pertain to a specific group of modellers" Take a usra & modify?
the 2-8-0 has been done & redone by many manufacturers. They aren't going to make a specific road name because, once again, "they also only pertain to a specific group of modellers"
I would like to see an Atlantic, maybe CNJ or Erie's 4-4-2, because (I think) only bowser & MDC makes these.
Why oppose a remake of the 2-6-2? Or how about a Heisler? They have the Shay & the Climax, why not the 3rd in line? After all, Rivarossi made the last plastic Heisler, & those are seriously hard to find now.
I agree with a Mogul (2-6-0) tho. I could use alot of those. Full vavle gear would be nice too. :)
As for the 4-8-0; You essentially could slap a UP, or generic name on the side & it'd still sell. Who makes a current 4-8-0 nowadays?
Just my thoughts,
Bob
Bob,
Here's what everybody misses about Pacifics and Mikados - Even though road specific details where different, many shared the same frame/driver/piston designs, and in many cases boilers as well, from the major builders.
Model manufacturers could easily build 5,6 or more different prototype locos of each wheel arrangement on the same frames with no more difficulty or expense than what Bachmann did with the C&O/USRA Heavy Mountain.
In many, many cases different cabs, tenders, pilots, and applied details would be all that is needed to make a number of different locos, and they would all be reasonably correct. Certainly as correct as many models we are buying right now!
4-8-0's may have been spread out around the country, but there where very few of them. I have made this same point about all the over produced Northerns. While Northerns may well have been the ultimate evolution of steam power, they where in fact very rare - only about 750 ever built.
I model a freelanced class I, east coast railroad set in 1954, none of the locos you mentioned would fit my theme. No major east coast road owned a Pairie, at any time in history, and most of those other wheel arrangements where gone from major east coast lines by 1930 - the N&W 4-8-0's being the one exception.
So I would not buy any. But most of the locos I listed where built between 1900 and 1930 and stayed in wide spread use until the end of steam, or at least until the mid/late 40's.
That gives them wide appeal. And, there are more freelance modelers out there than you think who would by, lets say, undecorated, road specific models like a B&O P7 Pacific and letter it to their road. but their not going to do that with PRR prototypes that scream PRR at you with their belpare fireboxes and other unique features.
Example - I would by SP prototype Pacifics or Mikados in a hot minute and letter them to my road - while they do have some unique features they do "scream" at you like K4's, N&W "J"'s, UP FEF's, Big Boy's, etc.
And, is was Pacifics, Atlantics, Mikados, Consolidations, and Ten Wheelers that did the work a day tasks of American Railroading from the teens to the end of steam. Their sheer numbers and scrap dates show this to be true.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
I certainly agree with your reasoning on the need for more Mikados and Pacifics as well as others you mentioned in your post. I've often wondered why mfg. seem so hesitant to get more Mikados on the market ... and I mean by this 'more Mikados that are not USRA style'. Seems like a huge segment of prototype steam is being neglected.
I know there is a lot of discussion as to 'why' and I don't want to add to the discussion ... but it would be so nice to see some truly 'new' prototype steam being offered by mfgs.
lanny
Lannt and Sheldon, I have your backs. I have a book with the title reading something like THE MIKADO - STEAM'S GP9. Fact is, it's true.
Sheldon mentioned the USRA/C&O heavy Mountain. But the USRA heavy Mountains delivered to the C&O looked exactly like those delivered to the N&W or the FEC, But the N&W and C&O USRA heavy Mountains looked vastly different later on.
Gene
I model a freelanced class I, east coast railroad set in 1954, none of the locos you mentioned would fit my theme. No major east coast road owned a Pairie, at any time in history
Say what? Isn't the Pennsy an East Coast railroad? http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/prr7453.jpg (http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/prr7453.jpg)
The Lake Shore & Michigan Southern became part of NYC. http://tinyurl.com/2zjxca (http://tinyurl.com/2zjxca)
It's not a good idea to make a sweeping generaliztion like that. Someone is likely to prove you wrong.
Andre
wow this is a touchy subject huh? Might be an easy fix here, if engineering wants to go back to the drawing board for 10 minutes....take a Spectrum decapod- talk about a small proto production eh? Remove the front set of drivers, replace with a 4 wheel pilot truck. Got your mastadon don't ya? B&M and B&A had 12wheelers working out of Boston harbor, can't go much further east without getting wet...Worldwide, 4-8-0's ruled for many many years-I have pics of ex- South African Rwy 8th class in steam- less than 20 years ago. Probably still working at that same mine today. A mogul with valve gear-yes! again, used from Maine to Mexico, details that can be changed without ruining the boiler? how about a kit where a modeler can make it a- 2-6-0 or 2-6-2, with or without wal'sv.g. didn't mdc had a system like that in the 70's? Just make something that runs good! Specifics can work against ya, the awesome spectrum 8 wheeler has dome positions and boiler taper that I just don't like, but don't have the heart to chop up.... too bad they didn't go with a cookie cutter early Schenectady than the Ricmond design, oh well, maybe next time-hay- just do the Jupiter and 119 in spectrum quality! That's my wish list....and 2 cents.....
I hope Santa is nice to each and everyone!!!
tony