Dear All,

If my entries appeared in any way derisive, pls accept my sincerest apologies. I do get a little passionate sometimes. Thankyou for drawing my attention to it Stewart.

Cudgel - I have never seen or heard this word - I looked it up though - good word - learning all the time!

A hearty G'Day to you Stewart,

I live in Sydney but grew up in so many places. My dear Father would never let the grass grow under his feet. Although based in Sydney, we spend little time here on the weekends & holidays. I grew up meeting people from all walks of life, cultures & humours & learnt so much from them & still do.

"DON'T MEET ANY STRANGE SHIELAS ON THE INTERNET !!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That's precisely what my wife tells me I'm doing now - she said "all that train stuff is just code I use to talk to my girlfriends". She has a good sense of humour. So listen here Ladies, I'm off to run some trains - see you soon.

David,
This is the original statement I referred to :

quote : "But you really have to experience Propelling over sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers consecutively, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph to really appreciate how a uniform standard for track & Wheels [NMRA] improves running.
NB :  The scale 50mph in reverse was achieved while testing trackwork only. I do not usually operate this way."


As it says this was a TEST ONLY, as I knew it was an impossible task to propel even ten 00 or HO wagons through a couple of Peco points at a around a scale 15 mph[a realistic speed even for a short layout] reliably without a derailment.
I wanted to see what my new NMRA  wheels & track is capable of & it exceeded my expectation to the point of making several runs at this speed, I thought I better quit - just in case. Yes, I was pretty incredulous to, but that is why I am pushing for modeling of prototypical standards, to achieve prototypical running.

Also there was Fast Tracks 50,000 cycles over matched track & wheels, without a derailment - this would be absolutely impossible with 00 scale on Peco Turnouts.

Note: I believe Peco make a fine product that is reliable & robust, & I would never want any harm to come to them, but they need to go that one step further to achieve a true model representation of prototypical pointwork.

Stewart wrote "OO is a compromise, where the development of "Toy Trains" has been an evolving process to one of "Model Railways/Railroad"". This is true & as 00 scale models are starting to now LOOK like the prototypes, maybe they should run like prototypes. It is completely achieveable now.

G'day All,

Forums are such a great idea to share & discuss common interests, but more than that, it gives us a chance to know each other, when there's no chance to actually meet. Currently, I'm debating topics with David & Stewart & having a great time - I hope they are too. bevernie, good thread - 10 out of 10 - you deserve the rest of the day off....to stay on the forum of course

I'm Mark, recently made reduntant after far to many years, on the Government railways in New South Wales, Australia.
My interests are in machining, woodwork, I.T. electronics, world politics & events, Psychology & motivation, and a host of seasonal sports.
As Stewart & David will surely testify , I really love model railroading to a fault.
I recently pulled down my old HO/00 layout & now intend to start another. I model  N, HO/00, ON30, G narrow & standard.

I've learnt so much from others experiences, & thank Bachmann for providing this forum & all the participants for their contributions. It's always been a pleasure being part of it.
   

Stewart,

Quote : "I think it is only fair that you disclose your interest if it goes beyond this forum".

My interests in this matter goes way beyond this forum, but are personal & I have no affiliation with any body, group or company. My interests are to help secure the future of this great hobby. It is dieing away - have you noticed? Hornby was at the doors of receivership & is only with us because it adopted motors in the [Merchant Navy class] loco in 2000, just as the bulk of their customers wanted. If they would have persisted with their Tender drive, they would be long gone.

Although my head is impressed by US outline, my heart belongs to British outline. When I see how perfectly US outline runs due to Standards being applied to track & wheel, it breaks my heart to think British outline will not conform to any standard, not even 00.


Quote : "It is 4mm, not 3.5, and the NMRA clearance standards on lineside/platforms/curves will also be out of whack".

This is true & I would not expect you to change any of these. I am only drawing your attention to the very thing that makes operations functional, the all important wheel & track standards combination. If you don't have this, then you're 'winging it' every time you run though your turnouts.

Quote : "If this "back to back" issue had merit, then I too would have problems running OO UK".

Does "back to back" have merit - ask the prototypical railroads.
I mentioned earlier how I can back sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers in succession, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph. You cannot do this without having the Wheels Back to Back & the turnouts, crossings etc, mating.
If I have a derailment with rolling stock that complies with a standard, it is not a case of "oh, well. I'll just put that back on the track & carry on". It is a matter of concern, because I have eliminated to a great extent, the "CHANCE" of a derailment by Standards, so that if one occurs, I know there is a tangible problem. This is something I can fix, be it a wheelset not conforming or faulty, or the trackwork is out, or broken. The Problem can be solved.
What I really don't want to fix is my late model Hornby pacifics in order for them to run successfully on any turnout, even Peco. To rectify the fault with these locos requires a complete strip down to bare Driver, Leading & Trailing & Tender wheelsets, adjusting to the correct Back to Back, then requartering the driving wheels &  reassembling the loco. If you have any of Hornby or Bachmann late model steam locos, you know how wonderfully cluttered with fragile detail they are. Not to mention the delicacy of the connecting rods, crossheads & valve gear. All of which will be in jeopardy from a strip down.
It seems odd to me, that at no additional cost to anyone, this problem could be solved at the factory, by applying correct Back to Back measurements.

In regards to your 00 UK stock running OK. It depends a lot on what it is. As mentioned earlier British outline products seem not to follow any standards on their wheelsets. Indeed I have lots of smaller 00 locos & rolling stock which accidentally or not, do conform to correct Back to Back & all run perfectly on NMRA HO & reasonably well on Peco.
They still run on Peco because the flanges [that do follow RP-25 for maximum flange height], still do not comply to the flange profile, instead opting for an angled flat face with sharp flanges to "FLANGE" around the outside of Peco turnouts as they do not use the Check rail. In this case you could argue that two wrongs, make a right. But, this is putting in a patch to make the outcome appear more acceptable. The smart money would be to rectify the Cause of the problem, not modify the result.

==============

David

Quote : "We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us!".

Yes you're absolutely right, you don't have to. But in the absence of correctly gauged 00 track & manufacturers who refuse to adhere to any standard at all in regards to wheel standards, the best option would be to follow a standard that is in place & works.

Back to Back standards & accompanying track standards are a measurable engineering certainty, resulting in calculated efficiency & reliability.

=======================

David & Stewart, I don't mean to offend you, but I believe I have. Your faith & steadfastness does you credit, & I admire that. Your friends must be very comfortable when you're around.

David,
Like you, I have a fondness for Hornby [Tri-ang, scalectric] Wren, Bachmann uk  & Peco. But liking something, even a lot, does not make it work better.

Peco has already made moves to gain a larger share of the US market by producing track closer to NMRA standards.

We should pander to the NMRA standard because 00 scale uses HO scale track & therefore should follow that standard. If a Euro tourist drove his left hand drive car on the right hand side of the road in the UK, I should think you'd be a bit miffed. If he chooses to drive his euro car in the UK, he should follow the STANDARDS there.

I mentioned the varying Back to Back measurements on all the New Hornby Pacifics. In the worst case, it equates to eight inches difference in prototypical terms - can you imagine the carnage. Actually there would be none as the it would not make it out of the yard.

RP-25 -  Hornby loosely follows this recommended practice, but does not follow other more important standards. Bachmann UK does follow RP-25 closely, & tends to follow the NMRA standards as well - to a certain degree; see eight axle tenders mentioned earlier.


We must remember the NMRA standards have been with us since 1936. One of the reasons it was created was because of this topic. Below is the beginning of the second item in the NMRA mission statement. Rather a humble line...certainly nothing to feel threatened by.

"The purposes of the National Model Railroad Association are, in part, to promote, stimulate, foster and encourage by all manner and means the art and craft of model railroading, to preserve of the history, science and technology thereof, and to advance the global model railroading community through education, development of standards and recommended practices, advocacy, and social interaction".

Dear all,

Most of you will not like this but......

Peco is ok, but still toy like; you only have to run an NMRA HO gauge through it to see the imperfections. Having said that, Peco has been improving. They can't & never will however, be accurate & reliable for running when they pander to the British outline manufacturers. And if they do decide to be NRMA compliant, British outline will simply no longer operate on it - which will be the best thing they could do. Then the British outline wheelsets will have to comply as well & then you will realize operational nirvana.

Peco's flangeways are the width of football fields & British outline locos & rolling stock, with little to no attention to wheel standards, relies on "flanging" its way round the outside of the switch rail & through the frog, relegating the check rail to just a meaningless piece of detail.  Why don't prototypical railways operate this way? I guess the death & destruction thing scares them. Now you know why a new Hornby locos has wheel flanges the size of dinner plates.

Finescale & handlaid track tends to have the correct width flangeways, & as a consequence the "CHECK RAIL”;with rolling stock with NMRA HO standard wheelsets, becomes OPERATIONAL - this means the flange going through the frog is guided away from the frog apex & hence no derailments - just like the real thing.
NB : Conical wheel profiles & gentle curves on turnouts means the flange only comes in contact with the check rail in extremes in prototypical operation, but the rules still apply!

At the Philadelphia show in July 2006, Fastracks displayed an absolute crowd pleaser. A tilting table that demonstrated how their NMRA HO Standard trackwork & wheelsets operate perfectly. What the table did is slowly rock back and forth allowing a stock boxcar to roll over the double crossover that was constructed using Fast Tracks fixtures. Each time the table would rock, all four turnouts would switch, and the car would roll through a different route.
This worked flawlessly throughout the entire show, cycling about 50,000 times, and never a single derailment!!!!!


I have been running British outline for over forty years & have been though all the problems associated with inadequate track & incorrect 'Back to Back' wheelsets. When I started to model US outline, & bought locos & rolling stock with wheelsets that follow "a" standard [NMRA] I discovered prototypical running, instead of the 'Train Set' standards accepted in British outline. 

Don't get me wrong, I dearly love my British outline stock & am livid that I can no longer run half of it, as it no longer operates on my NMRA HO track.
The truly sad thing is, Bachmann & to a greater extend Hornby seem to pay less attention to wheel standards, the more expensive the loco is.
As I mentioned earlier, Bachmann eight wheel Tenders suffer as do Hornby MNs, BoBs, LMS & LNER pacifics from this problem. The Back to Back measurement is all under standard, & we're not talking about one wheelset being out - in some cases EVERY wheelset is out by varying degrees - shocking!
The Stanier pacifics are the worse with four different Back to Back measurements varying by up to 1mm & everyone under the NMRA HO standard. This causes the wheelsets to ride up over the Wing & Check rails on NMRA HO standard track, as they are way to narrow.
If you're used to US OUTLINE NMRA standard locos, then British outline will seem like a trip to the Toy shop by comparison.

But you really have to experience Propelling over sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers consecutively, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph to really appreciate how a uniform standard for track & Wheels [NMRA] improves running. 
NB :  The scale 50mph in reverse was achieved while testing trackwork only. I do not usually operate this way.

I'm terribly sorry if this offends some readers; I know it used to offend me too. I used to defend the British Outline faith fervently. But I have swallowed my pride & admitted defeat & now I try to get the British Outline manufacturers to raise the bar & follow standards as well. It's not rocket science - the same Chinese factories that pump out Accurate US outline also pumps out inaccurate British outline. Bachmann UK & Hornby need only request NMRA wheel standards & it will be manufactured that way! 


What is a standard?
Look on your wall -
see the power point -
now plug something in -
did it go in easily?
If YES you have "a Standard".
Now get your plug & bend the tines askew - just a little - looks the same!
Now FOOOORCE it into the power point - difficult? Yes!
Did you get it in? Well Yeah? Just.
Now which one would you prefer!!!
This is the difference between following NMRA standards & having no particular standard in model railroading. In everything else you do in your life, would you accept "close enough is good enough". I doubt it! You're typing on a QWERTY keyboard - it follows a standard. Your door key opens the lock - a standard again.  If these things were slightly imperfect, you would not accept it! So why accept it on your hobby?

While 00 stock runs on HO track, it should follow HO standards.

I'll just go get my flak jacket - back in a mo'

Cheers.
Mark

P.S. Hornby & Bachmann British oultine locomotives in most cases are fine runners & have great detail, & are a huge improvement on what was produced before. My comments were only against the products wheelsets. Peco track although Robust and well made does not meet the standards set down by the NMRA.

Just DC for me.

I noticed QSi is going to do a DC SOUND unit with a choice of  Bemf & sensor for chuff rate.
This is perfect for me. Too much old 00 stuff to convert to DCC if at all possible.

I don't often talk to Myself, but.....

Yes I collect Bachmann Branchline locos. I, like 'Myself', buy from Hattons, who have  been very reputable & inexpensive.


A note of caution though. The four axle tenders on the Bachmann Pacific class locos are all under the NMRA 'Back to Back' wheel standards. They have flat bearing surfaces, so prying them out is possible, but a little [a lot] scary due to the amount of force required.

If you are using Bachmann easy track or Peco point work it still goes through OK, but if you have fine scale, Shinohara or accurately hand laid point work, you may find the tender climbs over the check & wing rails.

Hornby locos also suffer from inaccurate back to back measurements as well.

It does not seem very important to the average British outline modeler, who must happily persevere with derailments et al.

Cheers to all,
& all the best to "Myself"
Mark