A while ago I found a pretty good set off papers on operation, and the part that really caught my eye was the speed, coupling and uncoupling, signals, etc-as applied to HO scale steam locomotives.
I don't think I have seen five layouts where realistic operation of HO scale locomotives is truly observed.
A 2-8-8-2 pulling a short freight? At breakneck speed? Nope. I say look up speed in a manual. Big motive power wasn't used on short trains; a Bachmann 2-6-0 looks a lot better pulling an eighteen car local than a team of Mikes. Short of hollering for a crossing, most signals are ignored. Maybe this shouldn't be so ignored.
Sound is another bug. An HO locomotive that is running across a river should not sound like you are standing right next to it. Overdoing it kind of douses the effect. The same thing with coupling/uncoupling. I have watched a lot of trains being put together; the ONE thing one hardly ever sees is the "ramming" of a made-up train; yet, most of the time, the loco pushes the train a half mile back. The larger scales don't have such a bad time of it; but HO scale and others seem to not have the knack... I think a lot of that is lack of information. Kadee, for one, has much literature on which trucks, wheelsets, couplers, etc.; to use for prototype looks and good operation; and you can find more useful info on line.
If you are running a two or three-car around a circle, knock yourself out; but if you went through the time, expense and trouble to put together an other wise decent layout, why not go the extra mile?
Rich C.
Some people just want to have fun running their railroads their way. They just aren't into super realistic operation, and that's great if that's what they want.
That's a big part of why my KL&B railroad is set as "Railroad Museum", where all operational motive power gets to run. I got tired of people telling me a Y6b pulling three excursion cars, or a NH DL109 pulling RF&P coaches, wasn't "prototypical". It is on the KL&B.
Len
Rich C.
I agree, 100%.
But I have the advantage of actually having operated real locomotives, admittedly only in yard service and on a short "main" track at a museum but none the less, you still operate those 120 ton locomotives according to the rules. If you don't, people can get killed.
Roger T.
Roger et al; Good to hear back about this.
I tell no one how to live their life. This was only an observation that could be applied if the mood strikes.
It just happened to hit me all at once a while back when I was watching a well-detailed layout operating, and thought I would say something about this issue. Hey...Your money, your trains, no problem; tis one of the things that make the world go round. Roger, I have never operated anything other than a scale model railroad, and probably poorly at that. We share the same views on a lot of this stuff.
Rich C.
One of the reasons I built my model railways was to mimic as closely as possible how a real railroad operates.
That goes from the first UK model railway in the attic of my parent's home in the UK (UK attics were (are?) built differently than North American attics and have floor space clear of cross bracing. Hence, many model railways in the UK are built in attics)
I have for as long as I can remember, purchased model railway/railroad magazines and have always been influenced by the best models they feature. Not just scenery but those with realistic track plans and modelling concepts. Trains that run from 'A' to 'Z' and have a reason for running and are correctly blocked. So therefore, even as a 15 year old, my UK model railway was a Southern Region based double track terminal fed from staging. Track was all Peco Streamlined code 100. Closer to scale flex track wasn't available in the early 1960s and I've never been a fan of 'set track' as I think it's too toy like. The principal operation took place on a single track branch line that operated from the mainline terminal to a branch terminal with a junction fed from another small staging yard that represented a Western Region branch.
My current GER is a single major yard fed from various staging yards, not all of which have been built as of yet and will be a junction with these various staging branch lines representing connections to the USA, the NYC, CV, D&H, B&M and Canadian roads, the CNR and CPR.
One of my staging yards is through staging so I am not adverse, while working on a project, to have a train mindlessly orbiting the main track while I work, providing it doesn't interfere with what I'm doing. :)
However, once the railway in built enough for serious operation, then it will be to a timetable based on the CPR's actually timetable for my piece of imaginary track with the occasional freight extra as per the prototype. Back in the 1950s, the line on which my freelanced model railway is based saw something like 26 trains per day, so it will be a busy junction. But that's me. While I'm admittedly not a fan of mindless train running, nor of non prototypical train formations, Techno toasters hauling wooden cars, or non prototype beers cars etc., if other people get pleasure out of building for that kind of running, who am I to say they are wrong?
Whatever turns your crank.
Cheers
Roger T.
I think the problem with speed is the perception of speed at a distance. Ever looked at a train about 1 mile away? It seems as if it was crawling, yet it actually was going 45 mph. It's worse on a model railroad. The smaller the scale, the worse the effect.
Another pet peeve I have is with not allowing time for the essentials to take place.
Example, who was magically in position ahead of the train, ( doing 30 mph in the yard), to throw that turnout? Real life, hopefully brakeman was on the lead car, train slows and stops well clear of turnout, brakeman walks to turnout, unlocks and throws bar, train restarts slowly, brakeman climbs on. Train accelerates to desired speed. This all takes time.
Dropping a car. Train slows and stops. Brakeman demounts and walks to coupling. Maybe has to have loco push in slack. If any doubt of car rolling away, he has to climb aboard car and set handbrake. Oh yeah, handbrake is at far end of car. Then he has to get back to loco/car that will depart. This all takes time.
Picking up a car at factory. Brakeman must find responsible person to make sure car is ready to leave, especially tankers, hoppers. This can take a lot of time. Then usual procedures take place.
Brakeman was at one end of train to do work. Train traveling away from that work needs a turnout thrown. He has to walk all the way from far end of train to the area he is needed at. More time.
Just how long does it take to fill up the tender with water? 15 seconds? I doubt it.
Just when was the last time the sand domes/boxes were filled? Coal? Fuel oil? And so it goes . . .
My small layout actually seems quite large because I allow for all these events to take place. Yes, it gives me a chance to sip coffee/beer (yeah I know, against regs), check paper work, plan my next move, etc. Just like on the real railroad.
Sometimes I get impatient, deal with it.
And some folks enjoy seeing how fast they can get their train around a loop and still keep it on the track.
It's a hobby, not a regulated job. So there will be as many ways to enjoy it as there are people doing it.
Besides model railroading, I build plank-on-frame square rigged model sailing ships. But I don't put tarred caulking between the planks when I do.
When I run my railroad, I use a lot of the techniques from Kalmbach's "Realistic Operation" books. But not all of them. And even though I normally operate in point-to-point mode, some days I line up the hidden staging tracks and just let the trains run in circles.
Like the man said, "Different strokes for different folks."
Len
Len might have hit upon the best argument for operating at slower, scale-like speeds: a slow moving object is less likely to go flying off the track when it encounters a curve -- it's a physics lesson we saw demonstrated with passenger trains on Metro-North and Amtrak over the past 18 or so months.
And let's face it, nothing kills the fun faster than watching that brand new locomotive do a swan dive onto the floor many hundreds of scale feet below, dragging its string of freight or passenger cars with it. Ouch! :-\
I love adjusting my speed on my dcc locos, get the running at 99% throttle is around 60-75 mph (really depends on the loco I'm Adjusting) My A3 pacific Flying Scotsman is really fast (just like real life), while my Bavarian GLT 4/4 top speed is 25.
I hate it when people run their diesels like the are the japanese bullet trains.
Speeding is not an option on my GER as the whole layout is within "Yard Limits" and operates in "dark territory", where movements are governed by RULE 93.
The essence of rule 93 follows: -
Yard Limits defined by mileages listed in Timetable and indicated by a "Yard Limit" signs at track side.
ALL movements must move at RESTRICTED SPEED (unless block signal protection present).
Restricted Speed: Moving prepared to stop within half the range of vision short of car, engine, obstruction, broken rail, switch not properly lined and at no more than (20) MPH.
Trains and Engines are authorized to occupy and move on MAIN TRACK.
Trains and engines must CLEAR times of FIRST CLASS TRAINS.
Trains and engines are relieved of flag protection against other trains and engines.
And, as my yard is also a division point, ALL trains stop to change engine crews and cabooses on freight trains. Steam locomotives as well as diesels are permitted to work through though. East bound steam hauled trains will (eventually) have head end helpers added and west bound steam trains will have helpers removed, account grades encountered east of the modelled yard.
Cheers
Roger T.
One of the things mentioned here is switching, etc. On coupling/uncoupling: One of the major aggravations to us is that the lightness of the cars impedes the smooth switching effort, sometimes necessitating the "thirty foot roll". I read in an article about installing paint brush bristles in between the ties, just at axle height, and "blending" foliage around them; they seem to take on the appearances of tall weeds. I had always thought this was a pretty good idea, and tried it: It works like gangbusters! As I build this new layout, I will do this at all trackage that deals with industry. One thing about this hobby; as well as virtually all other activities; it is an accumulative effort, which is good.
Rich C.
one thing barely touched upon here is coupling cars. the impact force increases with the square of the impact speed, thus it rises exponentially with speed. most railroads have rules on how fast you can couple into cars "no more than 4" is a saying I have seen used.
for us, though, this is not always possible. try coupling into a single car at scale speed and you may find you haven't hit it hard enough to couple due to the tension in the knuckle springs.
I like running my trains at realistic slow speeds but operations and following rules are not for me. Operations to me is like watching grass grow, it is mind numbing boring.
I have always built my layouts with incredible scenery, hand laid track and the like. But I like watching my steam engines and the trains they are pulling running thru beautiful scenery.
There is no right or wrong way to enjoy your trains, do what you like and love what your doing.
Right, Jeff;
I have very much liked that bristle idea; it really covers a multitude of sins, as it were. They serve basically, a two-fold purpose: One is that they hold the car in a spot and coupling, especially with Kadee or the like, is a little more realistic an not so "dramatic"... The other thing-and what the context of the original article was all about-is spotting on a grade. A gradient, even a slight one, will present the potential of a car slipping down and slithering onto the main line. These bristles hold the light HO or even S, or maybe even O scale cars in place-unless of course, you have 8 or 9% gradient. I sincerely hope you do not have 8 or 9% gradients...
Rich C.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on July 20, 2015, 02:40:01 PM
Right, Jeff;
I have very much liked that bristle idea; it really covers a multitude of sins, as it were. They serve basically, a two-fold purpose: One is that they hold the car in a spot and coupling, especially with Kadee or the like, is a little more realistic an not so "dramatic"... The other thing-and what the context of the original article was all about-is spotting on a grade. A gradient, even a slight one, will present the potential of a car slipping down and slithering onto the main line. These bristles hold the light HO or even S, or maybe even O scale cars in place-unless of course, you have 8 or 9% gradient. I sincerely hope you do not have 8 or 9% gradients...
Rich C.
To stop cars "slipping down and slithering onto the main line" when you build your model railroad simply follow prototype practice.
Passing sidings, yard leads, industrial spurs are all laid out lower than the main track, thus there is a grade up from the secondary track to the main track. The track is laid out this way so as to prevent a slow speed runaway from reaching the main track. It will encounter the upward grade up to the main track and (hopefully) stop and roll back into the clear.
Of course, when you switch a flat yard, as you cannot scale friction nor mass, our rolling stock does not roll as freely as the prototype does, we have to shove all cars to a joint. This is why hump yards simply do not work well in the smaller scales unless cars come down the hump at near warp speed. When you switch a flat yard you also have to remember, of course, to make the safety stop six feet or so from the joint. This is so the ground crew can check to see if the knuckles are open and aligned and if not, safely go between the cars to manual align the knuckles and or fully open the knuckle.
How free rolling is a prototype car? One man with a pinch bar can get any prototype freight car rolling with ease and on level ground keep it rolling by just pushing it by hand and two or three men can get a freight car rolling just by giving it a push. Been there, done that.
So, when you switch your cars, keep speeds down to just above scale walking speed. Stop six scale feet from a joint and then gently shove to the joint. Well installed Kadees will work at such slow speeds, there's no need to crash cars together.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: jward on July 20, 2015, 09:47:19 AM
one thing barely touched upon here is coupling cars. the impact force increases with the square of the impact speed, thus it rises exponentially with speed. most railroads have rules on how fast you can couple into cars "no more than 4" is a saying I have seen used.
From the NY&W's Employee Time Table #29 (April 28, 1957):
Rough Handling
Impact shocks or energy possessed by a fifty ton car loaded to capacity, moving at different speeds or velocity.
MPH / Impact shock energy in foot pounds / Times shock increased
1 mph ---- 4,785 fp ---- 0
2 mph ---- 19,140 fp ---- 4
3 mph ---- 43,095 fp ---- 9
4 mph ---- 76,594 fp ---- 16
5 mph ---- 119,598 fp ---- 25
6 mph ---- 172,381 fp ---- 36
7 mph ---- 234,598 fp ---- 49
8 mph ---- 306,431 fp ---- 64
9 mph ---- 387,858 fp ---- 81
10 mph ---- 478,490 fp ---- 100
A.A.R. minimum draft gear absorption 18,000 foot-pounds
Roger,
Not all sidings and secondary tracks are built downgrade from main line track. This is what derails are for.
I have never seen operating derails on a model railroad, although a split-point derail could be made easily from a turnout. It could even be power-operated.
Split-point derails are fairly uncommon on the prototype. "Flop-over" derails are common. Their small size would make them difficult to model.
Les
Quote from: Desertdweller on July 20, 2015, 10:30:48 PM
Roger,
Not all sidings and secondary tracks are built downgrade from main line track. This is what derails are for.
I have never seen operating derails on a model railroad, although a split-point derail could be made easily from a turnout. It could even be power-operated.
Split-point derails are fairly uncommon on the prototype. "Flop-over" derails are common. Their small size would make them difficult to model.
Les
Les.
By "siding" are you referring to a track used for passing trains or a dead end track? According to the rule book, a siding is a place for trains to meet and pass each other and a spur is a single connected track. Just so we are on the same page as many modellers call "spurs" "sidings", which is the British term for a "spur". :)
Of course not all spurs are built lower, sometimes it's physically not possible but I was talking generalities so generally speaking, spurs (That's a dead end track, in this case serving an industry) are lower than the main track. For those that through physical needs have to climb away from the main or even a siding, then usually a derail is provided.
Sidings again are generally lower than the main track and usually not as well ballasted either but again, there are exceptions.
As for operating HO scale derails? Google wan't much help, sadly.
50 years ago Model Engineering Works made an operating slide/over version of the flip over derail. I had s couple on my layout. Never saw very many split rail derails down here in Louisiana, all we ever saw were flip,overs.
Quote from: Desertdweller on July 20, 2015, 10:30:48 PM
I have never seen operating derails on a model railroad, although a split-point derail could be made easily from a turnout. It could even be power-operated.
Les
James McNab's Iowa Interstate features a lot of interesting goodies, including 1:1 scale-key-operated HO-scale switch locks, functional gates at the entrance to industries' property, and flip-over derails....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfc5A3-iwuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfc5A3-iwuE)
Roger,
Sidings used as passing tracks generally will not have derails, unless they are also used for storing cars unattended. The assumption is that trains in a passing situation will not be left unattended. I know from experience that such is not always the case. Flip-type derails are cheap and easy to install, and can prevent bad accidents. They are marked by a nearby post or sign.
Flip-type derails are not always reliable. They can break or be hopped over if hit hard enough. They also are directional. A car hitting one from the direction opposite from what it is supposed to be protecting can hop over the derail and stay on the track. They are also cast, which makes them brittle and subject to breakage. For situations where there is great danger of cars rolling out, split rail derails are used. A split rail derail can be modeled by taking a regular track switch and removing one point rail, so only the point that lies against the stock rail (in the derailing position) remains.
One night, while running a Geep long-hood forward, I was mistakenly directed into a derail. It was set in the derailing position, but oriented to derail cars coming out of the track I was going into. The lead axel of my locomotive hopped over the derail and stopped. Everything was still on the rails, the derail resting on the rail between the first and second axles of the truck. We flipped the derail to the open position, and continued.
It is important to always check the position of the derail whenever opening a switch.
Les
Quote from: Desertdweller on July 21, 2015, 03:20:41 PM
Roger,
Sidings used as passing tracks generally will not have derails, unless they are also used for storing cars unattended. The assumption is that trains in a passing situation will not be left unattended. I know from experience that such is not always the case. Flip-type derails are cheap and easy to install, and can prevent bad accidents. They are marked by a nearby post or sign.
[ Quote]
Yes, I know that. I don't think that's what I wrote. :)
I wrote about spurs having derails, not sidings. Two different types of tracks though many modellers do use "siding" when they really mean "spur". That's what adds to a lot of confusion, modellers incorrect use of railroad terminology. If I discuss a siding to a railroader they know exactly what I mean but many modellers won't, they'll be thinking I'm talking about a spur.
In slow traffic times, sidings can be used for car storage as most sidings are below the track level on the main track so derails are not required. The use of out of the way sidings keeps the yard tracks clear. I used to do that on my old GER, use the siding at Dorset Centre to store cars during the "winter".
Yards are not for storing cars but for making and breaking up trains. Another modelling "myth", "Yards are for storing cars". No they are not. :)
As for derails, I've used a derail many times, one with two padlocks actually. One the museum's padlock and the other a CPR padlock. Ditto for the switch stand and the gate giving entry to the museum's site. Two padlocks on each until the CPR gave the museum permission to run down the spur, then the derail was moved to the CPR's side of the switch and the switch padlocked open for the museum. :)
Fun and games.
Quote
Flip-type derails are not always reliable. They can break or be hopped over if hit hard enough. They also are directional. A car hitting one from the direction opposite from what it is supposed to be protecting can hop over the derail and stay on the track. They are also cast, which makes them brittle and subject to breakage. For situations where there is great danger of cars rolling out, split rail derails are used. A split rail derail can be modeled by taking a regular track switch and removing one point rail, so only the point that lies against the stock rail (in the derailing position) remains.
One night, while running a Geep long-hood forward, I was mistakenly directed into a derail. It was set in the derailing position, but oriented to derail cars coming out of the track I was going into. The lead axel of my locomotive hopped over the derail and stopped. Everything was still on the rails, the derail resting on the rail between the first and second axles of the truck. We flipped the derail to the open position, and continued.
It is important to always check the position of the derail whenever opening a switch.
Les
I've not seen a single point derail in Canada. Not that they aren't used. Of course, in the UK where every single switch either on or leading to a passenger carrying main track is interlocked, even on remote branch lines, all entry onto passenger carrying tracks is protected by some form of "trap". Be it either a single or double point derail or a regular switch leading to a dead end "yard lead".
Cheers
Roger T.
There's two things being talked about here. Neither is better than the other but they are worlds apart. They are 1) running a model railroad and 2) playing with trains.
Quote from: Trainman203 on July 22, 2015, 07:49:41 PM
There's two things being talked about here. Neither is better than the other but they are worlds apart. They are 1) running a model railroad and 2) playing with trains.
Agreed, 100%.
Cheers.
Roger T.