I have over the 22 years of my existence looked at many steam locomotives in awe and loved their construction and the way they look, and the sounds they make. But one series of engines seems to always catch my eye ever since i've seen them and thats the D&RGW 4-8-2's M-75's and M-78's which in any scale can ONLY be found in brass, and with my job prospects and the poor economy, I doubt I can get a few of these under my belt before I'm 25(I've surprised myself before, who knows) I've wanted a fleet in HO and would even hack at the thought of scratchbuilding a boiler and details in G scale(1:32 or 1:29) and I can even think of doing the same in HO since the boiler is pretty straight.
But then there's things like sand domes, cabs, cylinders, drive rods(I can make a chassis, it would have to match the wheel diameters), the actual tender, etc, etc.
So I was wondering my dear model railroading friends, would it be better to make the financial dive into getting brass again or is there an easier way to scratchbuild the engine
I have even thought of buying a brass engine, disassembling it to make lost wax lead castings(like varney did sort of)
Let me know what you guys think--> ;D
I would request bachmann to make these but, I doubt there's enough market for them(do tell me I'm wrong)
Here's some pictures:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/BLW-DRGW-482-M78-1515BL-F14.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/BLW-DRGW-482-M78-1515BL-E14.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/drgw_1514_coloradosprings_co_aug_1940_000sized.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/drgw_1506_denver_co_16_may_1948_000.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/m782.png)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/m78.png)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/drgw_1505_unknown_unknown_000.jpg)
Rye-
I strongly urge you to look for brass locomotives on ebay. Try for an unpainted one and don't be afraid of one with limited detail. You can always paint yourself and add details, saving some money in the process. Recasting parts from a disassembled model is an enormous amount of work. You have to remember that each successive "generation" has less and less resolution than its predecessor, and you will need to do a lot of cleaning up of both your original and castings. There's also the ethical issue of copying someone else's work. This isn't plagiary per se but it's the same exact principle. I also suggest that you look for locos with can motors as they are priced about the same as ones with open-frame motors, but can save you the cost of a good motor and the installation and adjustment work.
I've followed this plan myself, with larger DRGW locos like Mikes, Mountains and Northerns. I'm very pleased with what I have. I certainly didn't save an arm and a leg compared to high-line, detailed, painted and lettered engines but my improvements were fun and economical. They were sure a whole lot less work than copying someone else's work would have been.
My one piece of advice for ebay acquisitions is to check out the sellers and test/inspect your loco as soon as it arrives. I've seen models which appeared to be fine but had electrical or mechanical problems on the test track. Put that step off at your own peril.
Whatever you do, good luck.
-- D
Ryeguy,
Having enjoyed watching your projects in the past, I would look forward to watching this project progress.
Financing this hobby can be a challenge at times... Especially when you really want a correctly detailed steam locomotive. I have taken two approaches.
I found an old brass locomotive, which needed some work. There were a few parts missing, no original box, among other things. Because of the less than ideal condition, I got it for a very reasonable price. Cal Scale parts took care of the missing details. An NWSL motor got it running well. A lot of hard work got it looking good... to me anyway:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3805.jpg)
The other approach (more economical) is to take modern model and converting it to meet your desires. Consider the Spectrum Heavy Mountain. You would need two compressors, vice the one in the current spot. You'd need to move the boiler check valves to a Nathan Double Top Feed Check Valve. The domes appear to be in the correct position already, or very close anyway. You'd need a few extra pop valves and a doghouse for the tender. The list goes on. It doesn't have to be done all at once. In the mean time, you would already have a great running locomotive to tinker with whenever the mood hit you.
My Mountains aren't done yet, but I add little details all the time. Can't get to my camera at the moment, but I just put the top feed check valves on my Mountains. Will post when I can. In the interim here's my B&O T Class project:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3179.jpg)
Just a couple of ideas.
Regards,
Jonathan
well plagarizing(however that nasty word is spelt) isn't so bad as it seem if you're doing it to save a few dollars and you're not doing it for any real gain except personal, the engine isn't going to be exactly an M-78, there will be added extra details to suit my own freelance desires(like a tender franklin booster of course ;D )
After giving it some real thought I might as well do the dive. I have done this with brass and lead boilers before, is buy the engine and if the mechanism works fine keep it the way it is, only modifying it to my needs. However if it's like my DM&IR 2-10-4 I got, I might even have to bash it some, which a newer generation IHC mikado chassis might do just the trick and sell off the chassis. My 2-10-4 chassis sold for a whopping $80 last i remember giving a return on investment, the only thing left of that purchase is the cylinders, boiler and cab for just a rough $150 out of pocket, however for a DRGW mountain, I like the WHOLE locomotive including the tender and I've seen quite a few of them up for sale commanding a $350+ price tag, so I could just start paying off my credit card and not use it until it reaches about $400 so I can just flat out buy it
for anyone interested theres a DRGW M-68 Northern 4-8-4 up for sale with a pretty generous start bid on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290590942725&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_949
if my focus wasn't primarily on these mountains I'd pick it up myself
Main thing would be to find a good chassis with the proper driver diameter and spacing. From there, pick the material yopu feel most comfortable workinbg with. Gather all the photos and other references you can find.Monte Vista has some D&RGW Pictorials in addition to their SP ones. Lots of parts available. If the loco has been done in brass there's a good chance that PSC or Cal Scale has parts. Make notes about what you need to do.
When it comes to the piping--a friend and I have different approaches. Rick soes everything on one side, then moves to the other. I prefer to pipe a loco just as if I were working on the real one--taking one systam at a time--say, starting with the feedwater system, then air brakes, then sanders, etc. It helps to know what the stuff is and what it does. MR's Steam Locomotives Cyclopedia has a whole section--
gj
Quote from: glennk28 on July 26, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
Main thing would be to find a good chassis with the proper driver diameter and spacing. From there, pick the material yopu feel most comfortable workinbg with. Gather all the photos and other references you can find.Monte Vista has some D&RGW Pictorials in addition to their SP ones. Lots of parts available. If the loco has been done in brass there's a good chance that PSC or Cal Scale has parts. Make notes about what you need to do.
When it comes to the piping--a friend and I have different approaches. Rick soes everything on one side, then moves to the other. I prefer to pipe a loco just as if I were working on the real one--taking one systam at a time--say, starting with the feedwater system, then air brakes, then sanders, etc. It helps to know what the stuff is and what it does. MR's Steam Locomotives Cyclopedia has a whole section--
gj
I like your insight, I was thinking along the lines of purchasing the latest PSC parts catalog, hoping maybe I'll find something I could definitely use. I'm sure rolling my own boiler would be in interesting feat, as well something to do jumping into a different realm of building from scratch for me. I might as well give it a try. As far as reference is concerned I have a whole folder with 50 subfolders on locomotives and railroad prototype and freelance model photos, my Rio Grande folder gets thicker and thicker with reference photos
I have tried hunting down erecting drawings for an M-78 but I've been stumbling around in the dark and one lead brings me to another and then to a dead end, I'd love to get my hands on at least a copy of blueprints for the locomotive, it would definitely come in handy for me.
FOR THOSE INTERESTED:
my latest undertakings:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3707.jpg)
new roundhouse finally constructed
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3701.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3698.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3707.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3703.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3708.jpg)
yard tracks have finally been laid and are awaiting quality control standard testing
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3705.jpg)
this engine I was thinking of giving it the M-78 "look" with marker lights, number boards and a number of other details, its a mikado but I want to look and this engine can be doctored to look similar with some work. Engine has an IHC mikado chassis with flywheel. The tender is still in question as I might modify a USRA long tender I got from GG a while back. The engine has run on the club layout but i never did test how many cars it can pull, also awaiting a tsunami dual sound decoder installation(whenever i get to it :o )
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/CIMG3704.jpg)
I don't think I've shown any of you guys this kitbash but I have an observation car as well, I love the way these coaches look :)
I usually build up boilers on a piece of straight tube--build up the tapered sectiions, then cut templates for the jacket out of card stock. Make the jacket ffrom .010 brass. gj
Quote from: glennk28 on July 26, 2011, 06:36:43 PM
I usually build up boilers on a piece of straight tube--build up the tapered sectiions, then cut templates for the jacket out of card stock. Make the jacket ffrom .010 brass. gj
I would just need to know what the boiler diameter for the engine would be then
Remember that what you see as "the boiler" includes a layer of insulation ("lagging" betweeen the boiler shell and jacket. Railroad folio drawings usually show the diameter of the shell--modeler's plans show over the jacket. gj
Quote from: glennk28 on July 26, 2011, 09:27:05 PM
Remember that what you see as "the boiler" includes a layer of insulation ("lagging" betweeen the boiler shell and jacket. Railroad folio drawings usually show the diameter of the shell--modeler's plans show over the jacket. gj
true, and then also rivets and braces would need to be applied
actyually, a lot of those rivets aew hidden under the lagging--
towards the front where the smokebox is however there are rivets
Rye-
I know this sounds silly but there are rivet decals now. These aren't some
shadow effect; they are actual three-dimensional rivets which are applied
like decals.
-- D
yeah I saw something like that recently i forget where
Micro-Mark has the rivet decals....in HO and O.
Here's the link to the HO ones.........
http://www.micromark.com/HO-scale-decals-with-raised-3D-rivets-and-other-surface-details,9968.html (http://www.micromark.com/HO-scale-decals-with-raised-3D-rivets-and-other-surface-details,9968.html)
Sid
You might also be interested in this book by Robert LeMassena:
http://www.amazon.com/Denver-Rio-Grande-Western-Superpower/dp/1883089484
Of course, he had a book on what he considered the "Superpower Railroad of the Northeast."
http://www.amazon.com/Lackawanna-Superpower-Railroad-Northeast-Robert-Lamassena/dp/1883089328
Good luck.
J3a,
i love your posts, very informative to say the least :)
J3a,
do you have any good online sources you might know of for the Rio Grande Mountains?
Not right off, but I'll do some looking and see what I can find.
One thing you might want to keep in mind if you have to scratch up such a beast--these engines had 63-inch drivers, relatively low for a 4-8-2, but a common size for a 2-8-2. You may want to start with a 2-8-2 mechanism and stretch it at the front end, similar to what you did for the G&D 4-10-0. Note that the main rod connects to the No. 3 driving axle on all of these D&RGW 4-8-2s. There was also one series you may have a bit of trouble with; I don't recall the number series, but it was a three-cylinder variation, with a double set of Walschearts valve gear on the right side and a weird double eccentric crank to drive the two sets of gear. I don't know if I would want to attempt that version!
I'll get back when I can.
I believe that Rob Grandt (R.Robb) has a softcover pictorial "The Grande Mountains" I don't have it because it is about Wide Gauge locos
gj
Well, did a little looking, and here's what I've found so far. Not all of it may be directly usable, but it may lead you to something.
General data; looks like my memory was wrong on driver diameter, which is the somewhat unusual 67 inches (interestingly, the same as a UP 4-12-2):
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mountain/?page=drgw
Some other material to check out:
http://www.drgw.org/
A 2-10-2 and a 4-8-2 on a passenger train:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/RG1403X2.JPG
Those drivers are only a couple of inches smaller than those of the USRA 4-8-2 Bachmann sells, and the valve gear is a short frame version of Baker:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/RG1501.JPG
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/RG1501C.JPG
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/RG1524.JPG
Where those photos came from:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/denriog.htm
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/
More photos:
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=any&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=/p15330coll22&CISOBOX1=4-8-2
One of those 3-cylinder jobs:
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p15330coll22&CISOPTR=29391&CISOBOX=1&REC=7
1939 roster info and photos:
http://ghostdepot.com/rg/rolling%20stock/locomotive/drgw1939roster.htm
Another roster:
http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/term/slusdrgw.htm
Photo of one of the 1600s (3-cylinder job); note double valve gear, including double eccentrics:
http://www.brasstrains.com/images/products/030049/DSC01787.jpg
A two-cylindered 1500:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=206915
That's as much as I could find that seemed worthwhile; hope it's a decent start.
Thanks J3a!!!
another set of pics that I don't have on file
through the research I've done, the M-75 4-8-2's were the 3-cylinder ones
PFM made a crown one I believe, that commands a used car price range,
but Key Imports(Samhongsa I HOPE!) that goes around for reasonable pricing, I've been eyeballing one from this one dealer that I might pick it up from
and another dealer shot me an email on one particular I know I'm set on getting is an M-78 all painted and weathered nicely--->
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_9516.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_9521.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_9518.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_9520.jpg)
^the thing that's apparent is going to bother me is the wheel wear, and the locomotive does not look 22 inch radius friendly(subject for tinker/ chassis conversion) I typically design my locomotives to 'handle' 18 inch radius but prefer to run on 22 or greater, 24-26 most likely
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/IMG_9517.jpg)
one big reason why this locomotive catches my eye is it's elite look, with modernization mixed in but at the same time a steam locomotive in the 40's war era(my era is typically 30's to early50's ALL STEAM) Characteristics shown are the number boards, stack shield(I wonder if thats used to direct smoke through the Moffat tunnels) It's heavy appearance at a towering 15-16 maybe even 17 feet in height. I wonder if John Allen would've bought a few of these had he been alive for their releases in brass
those 2-10-2's are huge and so is the price of them in brass, they have them in brass with a chunky short vanderbilt tender or those Norfolk and Western Water Buffalo tenders
the M-75's did have dual eccentric rods for the third cylinders:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/ryeguyisme/m75dualeccentricrods.jpg)