The sentence in that ebay ad makes no sense..pay no attention to it, the guy doesnt know what he is talking about:

QuoteThis is one of Bachmanns premium finely detailed models in a 1-20.3 scale NOT the larger scale rubbish in their cheap sets.

Its not a spectrum engine, the spectrum line is the "top of the line"..
but there is still nothing wrong with it, its still nicely detailed..

QuoteThis is one of Bachmanns premium finely detailed models

no it isnt..it is nicely detailed, but it isnt the "premium" line (spectrum)

Quotein a 1-20.3 scale

exact scale is debatable..since it has no prototype it cant be said to have an exact scale..
its pretty small for 1/20.3..I wouldnt consider it a 1/20.3 scale model.

QuoteNOT the larger scale rubbish in their cheap sets.

that makes no sense..the "larger" models are the spectrum line, top of the line..which are not the "cheap sets"..
The Indy is from "the cheap sets" side of the catalog..not that there is anything wrong with that..

so yeah..thats a very poorly written description..makes no sense at all..

"Indy" aka "Industrial mogul" aka "Mining Mogul"..three names, same engine:

(thats a loco from the first run..not sure if the current (second run) have any different details)

Scot

Quote from: Woodwrkr on January 13, 2012, 07:05:10 PM
I'm thinking that since the Big Hauler series is not actually modeling any specific prototype, that it would probably be acceptable to refer to it as either scale, depending on individual preference or bias.  In other words, a difference of a few scale inches wouldn't be significant; as a figure 3-1/4" tall would represent a person of 5'6" in one scale and 6'1" in the other; or a 2" diameter drive wheel would vary from 41" to 45" between the scales.   

Is this logical, or does Bachmann actually design each product line to a different scale?

Except there is a real prototype for the Big Hauler 4-6-0:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/HaltahrNV6b99OOP1pc9vQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmSRWLNQRyM

And technically, since Tweetsie #12 is a 3-foot gauge locomotive, an accurate model of her should be built to 1/20.3 scale, not 1/22.5..but the reasons for 1/22.5 have already been explained..

Scot

Well, maybe calling the new one an "Anniversary" edition has been known for awhile..
but no one knew Bachmann was also calling it "Version 6" until you posted the photo just today..
thats really the big story here..because that's what the main debate has been about all along..whether or not it was also considered "anniversary" was quite secondary..but thats also good to know! 

Scot

FINALLY! some clarity in this issue! 
I asked ages ago if anyone knew what Bachmann themselves called the locos internally..
I was very curious to know, because it would solve the whole question..
no one knew..until now!
man, its about time!
we can finally put this matter to rest..thanks Jon! 
(your unnecessary rude snarkyness aside, im glad you posted that)

Turns out George Schrarers initial post about "Six Generations" from 10 years ago:
"The 6th generation is the "10th Anniversary Edition" (aka "Annie") version"
is what caused all this..he was simply wrong! (he thought it had a different motor)
and that led to people calling the Annie "Gen 6" all this time..
glad its finally cleared up!

I still dont agree that the motor and gearing alone should be enough..
but before now we were only working with personal opinions..(even Loco Bill)..
and opinions are not facts..
but now Bachmann has spoken..so there it is.

Scot

Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on December 29, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
Scot , Give it up, you keep mixing detail changes up with mechanical changes.  Barry said they were mechanically the same.  The cutouts are simply detail differences and have NO effect on the mechanism or its operation.   

I understand that..but its also completely irrelevant..
my point was that motors and gears alone shouldnt be (and dont have to be) the only criteria
for designating generations..there is no rule stating this..except the one you made up.

it makes FAR more sense to call the Annie Gen 6, to differentiate it from the Gen 5.
Calling them both "Gen 5" is far more confusing..
This cant be denied..as I have already explained in great detail.

Scot

Kevin, that might be true..but who ever said "drive components" *alone* must be the only criteria for designating generations? there is no rule that states that..its completely arbitrary..

it might have made sense to use drive alone to designate Generations 1 through 4, because the drive was truly
the major difference then, and really the *only* difference..but that is no longer the case..so there is no need to stick to the old "rule"..
Look at the differences between the Gen 5 Big Hauler and the Annie:

1. Annie has metal rods and valve gear, Gen 5 has plastic.

2. Annie has improved detail on the boiler, cylinders and cab (steel cab version)
externally its a very different loco from the Gen 5, and greatly improved.

3. Annie has a different frame than the Gen 5 (the cut-outs Barry mentioned)

The Annie is a VERY different loco from the Gen 5..but we should call them the same generation simply because they have the same motor and gears?? says who?

IMO calling them both Gen 5 is MUCH more confusing than calling one Gen 5 and calling the Annie Gen 6.
saying they are both Gen 5 implies they are "the same"..when they clearly are very different.

And many people have been calling the Annie Gen 6 for the past 10 years..this is nothing new.
This came from George Schreyer's site, where he said "There are at least SIX different motor/gearing systems in use in Big Haulers. " He said this 10 years ago..that is where 6 generations came from..
http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html
and maybe he was wrong! maybe there are only 5 versions of motor/gearing afterall..
but that still doesnt mean the Annie isnt worthy of being Gen 6, based on all the other differences..

Sure, there might be 5 different types of gearing..but does that mean there are only
5 kinds of Big Haulers? nope..there are clearly 6 different kinds of Big Haulers..
Gen 5 and Gen 6 (Annie) happen to have the same motor or gears..but other details
are *very* different..

People have been calling the Annie Gen 6 for 10 years, ever since it came out..because it makes sense..
its logical and understandable..the differences between the Gen 5 and the Gen 6 annie are so large,
that is no reason to *not* call them separate generations..
Changing things now and calling the Gen 5 *and* the Annie both Gen 5 makes no sense at all..

Annie should be called the "Generation 6 Big Hauler" with the same gearing as Gen 5.
The new one coming out right now will be Gen 7.

and..IMO the new Gen 7 should also *not* be called "Annie"!
because the Annie is the "10th Anniversary edition" only..came out in the year 2000.
The new one cant logically be called "Annie"..but that is probably a losing battle!

Scot

Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on December 28, 2011, 10:56:38 AM
Hi, Jerry,

I cannot find the post Scot is referring to, but it was a comment by Barry about the see thru style motor block box under the Annie  while the Big Hauler is solid.  In the same post Barry stated that the two were mechanically the same, a point which Scot missed.  I thought I would add some additional clarification since the whole point of the chassis identification system is to clarify rather than confuse the board readers.

(that was the post I was referring to)

So if I understand it correctly, the Annie chassis is clearly different from the Gen 5 chassis, but for the purposes of calling them both Gen 6, we will say they are exactly the same. fascinating.

Scot

Bill,
Barry recently stated in the other thread that he found a difference between the Gen 5 and the Annie chassis..
therefore they are not the same..
therefore the Annie can be considered Gen 6 based on not only the detail upgrades, but also on the basis of the chassis as well..your list from 2001 is all well and good, but new info has come to light since then proving the data from 2001 is incomplete and no longer relevant for lumping the Gen 5 and the Annie together into the same generation..

you might have thought they were the same back in 2001, but you missed something..
Annie is Gen 6..always has been.
The new one coming out right now will be Gen 7.

Scot

Technically both versions of the Annie do have valve gear!
they just have different types of Valve gear..
Stephenson and Walschaerts.

The one that doesnt look like it has valve gear is the Stephenson version..
the valve gear is there, its just not quite as obvious as the Walschaerts valve gear.

The Annie is Generation 6 of the Big Hauler ten wheeler..
there is a new Gen 7 that is coming out right now.
(cant really call the new one the "Annie" as the "annie" was the 10th anniversary version only..
the new one should simply be called "Generation 7" to avoid confusion)

the different generations are listed here:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html

You could add the Walschaerts gear to a Stevenson loco, but you would have to take it off
another engine, its not "sold separately"..its probably not worth it to try..

Scot

Quote from: armorsmith on November 26, 2011, 07:43:36 PM
That is not an answer that is easily quantified.  There are many variables which will affect how long a particular engine will perform.  I would only offer that the new generation 6 chassis should far outlast any of the predecessors based solely on the fact that the entire gear train is metal, no plastic. 

Im pretty sure he is referring to the "true" annie..the Generation 6 Big Hauler..since that is the one most likely to be for sale in a set at this moment..the newest Gen 7 Big Haulers aren't available yet, and probably wont be before Christmas..

But either way, any "current" Big Hauler is a quite robust machine..no one can really say for sure how long they will last though..because owner care and maintenance is a major factor..but overall, they are an excellent locomotive..
treat an annie well, and she will run for a long time..

Scot

Thans Barry,
thats an interesting detail I dont think anyone has heard of before..

So now it seems the Gen 5 chassis and the annie chassis are not 100% identical afterall..
*now* can we call the Annie Generation 6?! 
and the new one Gen 7..

Scot

Im just going to refer to it as "Generation 7"..makes the most sense to me.

007 Bond Big Hauler? 

Scot

Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on November 15, 2011, 11:47:35 PM

It is the chassis that matters and since the Version 5 chassis was put in Big Haulers and Annie they are long considered Version 5.  

says who?
why should *only* the chassis matter? 
why wouldnt all the upgrades to the Annie be enough to give its own generation? seperate from Gen 5?
It makes no sense at all to call the "non-annie" Gen 5 and the Annie also Gen 5..
thay are SO different its obvious the Annie should be Gen 6, and the new one should be Gen 7.
(and the new one also should clearly *not* be called the "Annie"..the Annie was specifically the 10th anniversary model only..Gen 6 only..the new one should be Gen 7 but not called "Annie"..why add unnecessary confusion?)

From what I have seen, people have been calling the Annie "Generation 6" for 10 years..
It has long been considered Generation 6.

Calling the Annie Gen 5 and lumping it in with the non-annie Gen 5 is a minority opinion..
It has always been refered to, by most, as Gen 6, for clear and obvious reasons.

I can see the logic in referring to "chassis versions"..which yes, have only been 5 versions up to the Annie.
but a locomotive is much more than just its chassis..

Does Bachmann have any ruling on this question?
I would be curious to learn how Bachmann refers to the various versions of the Big Hauler..
that would end the debate once and for all!

Scot

Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on November 15, 2011, 12:58:04 PM
We definitely need to call it version 6, aside from the new front truck, I will publish the external identifying features as soon as we get the production models in out hands and can check them out. 


I can't wait to see how they run and look!   

Cheers, Bill

Generation 7 actually:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html

Generation 1 - first Big Hauler 4-6-0, battery powered.

Generation 2 - "The early track powered version (2nd generation) uses the same gearing as the first generation but it has a larger motor." (quotes from George Schreyer site)

Generation 3 - "The 3rd generation version uses a brass worm on the motor and plastic reduction gears. "

Generation 4 - "This one uses a worm on the motor and a single gear on the axle."

Generation 5 - "This version appeared sometime during 2000. This one has an intermediate reduction gear and a more substantial metal gearbox assembly. The axle gear is narrower and offset from the center. The bump in the lower cover is also offset from the center." This version still has plastic side rods and plastic valve gear.

Generation 6 - the "annie" - 10th anniversary version. has metal siderods and valve gear, new improved "steel" cab" and an upgraded 7-pole motor, (different motor than Gen 5)

Generation 7 - The newest version, the topic of this thread.

Some people have tried to imply that both the "Gen 5" and the "Annie" should be considered the same..both should be called "Gen 5"..but with so many differences between the Gen 5 and the Annie, (Annie has metal rods, improved details, and a different motor) I don't see any way anyone can logically argue that the annie should also be "Gen 5"..it is SO different from Gen 5, that clearly the Annie is worthy of being Gen 6, and most people consider it Gen 6, and have for 10 years.

Scot

ah! ok..then you have a "first generation" big hauler..
the earliest battery powered version..
its worth $5 to $20..(and $20 is pushing it..)
So do whatever you like to it! 

Scot