Hello, I am fairly certain I just killed two DCC trains. They are dead on the main line and test track. Other trains will work on the test track and I am too fearful to put them on the layout. Could I have caused the short by placing Proses track voltage tester across a turnout's 3 rail lead (yeah, I'm on a 2 rail HO)? Or did the short happen because that same turnout happens to be a reverse loop (it has insulated connectors) but the trains always stopped at that point? I ran them over the area A LOT to determine where the power loss was happening. Recommendations on how to fix this? And are my trains permanently goner's?
Thanks- I'm so sad by all this! But I am really trying to learn as much as I can!
Did you isolate the return loops on the main line side, or the loop side of the turnout?
I wish I knew! I have a photo of the layout diagram which is only 37KB and the system is not allowing me to upload it. One of those days!
The layout is a figure 8 with an outer circle that can loop you back to the opposite direction meeting right back up at the same turnout.
You can upload it on another site and post a link to it here.
The gapped rails are supposed to be on the loop side if it helps, not the main line.
Let's suppose their placement is correct. Could I have caused the short with crossing 3 tracks with the voltage tester?
I see no outward damage to the trains, but are they lost cause?
Yes, it is possible you shorted the tracks.
The trains may need new decoders or motors now.
What DCC system are you using? The command station should shut down when a short happens provided you have enough feeder wires. On a reverse loop, both rails on the 2 sets of tracks coming off the frog need to be insulated. You will need an auto reverser wired between the track bus and loop. Several makes are available. I use DCC Specialties OG AR. It's electronic. Some are have a relay to reverse polarity. Joe
Hi! I am using Digitrax DCS51. It's possible that I missed seeing the rolling o's. I was focused on the voltage tester.
The closest feeder wire to the turnout is four feet away. Yes, the 2 sets of tracks off the frog have the insulator joiners. Do I need to replace the turnout?
It's difficult determining the reverse loop on the layout even for experienced folks. I will look into the OG AR for certain. Thanks!
Are you using a total of four insulators or gaps on the turnout?
4 feet is pushing it, but shouldn't be a total loss of power.
Is it possible that one or more of your feeders to the loop is connected backwards, causing the short?
Sometimes, locomotive decoders get their brains scrambled in a short but not destroyed. You might try a reset. The procedure to reset depends on the brand. But fairly common is to put the locomotive on the program track. Program cv8 = 8. Then after doing so, remove power ftom the locomotive for 30 seconds or so by tipping one side of the locomotive up off the rails. Then after 30 seconds, put it back down on the rails. If the reset was successful, the locomotive should respond to address 3 which is the default address of new locomotives / decoders. Then if it does respond, you can go about reprogramming it to your preferences.
Do you know the brand of decoders involved?
Hope that helps you.
Hi Flare,
Yes, I'm using 4 insulators on the turnout. The feeders appear to correct, but I will double check that again. (It's a low chance of that being the cause).
Hi Gearedenginefreak,
It's a Kato loco DCC with sound (so not cheap). I don't know the type of decoder- still looking for it online though so I can answer you.
What if there is no response? Send back to Kato for repair?
Thank you both!!
The loco that I am most saddened to lose is this one: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kato+ho+union+pacific+5714+ac4400cw&view=detail&mid=27D1C0E06C93AEF0227D27D1C0E06C93AEF0227D&FORM=VIRE
What a great paint job done on this one!
I don't know much about DCC, but I remember reading reset the decoder. I wonder if that might work.
The million dollar question nobody has asked is how were you powering the reverse loop? Did you use an autoreverser? Did you change the polarity of the loop through contacts associated with your switch motor? Or did you simply hook up two wires to your zephyr like it was just another track?
Lizz,
According to the video link you provided, that locomotive has a loksound decoder made by ESU. Excellent decoder. I will look up reset procedures later when I can get to my computer.
Someone else may beat me to the answer though.
But chances are pretty good you just need to do a reset.
Lizz,
I just looked it up. The reset procedure is as I described earlier. Program track, program 8 into cv8. Remove locomotive from power for 30 seconds.
Hopefully, it will come back to life.
Loksound advertises that they have current overload and short protection built in. So hopefully it saved itself.
I jope this helps you.
I'm with JWard on this one.
What are you using for a reverse loop controller and how is it wired?
Sid
The address may be scrambled too. And not to 3. A BLI address changer is a well spent $70 to clean up disasters like this.
Get all the affected locos off the layout and onto a known clean test track (one at a time of course.) Be sure that you know the address either through your cab or through the worthily purchased BLI address changer (highly recommended , it has saved me many times.). When you know that you are actually communicating with the engine, do the cv 8 reset, or through the address changer which can do it. Report back with results. Like the rest of your friends here, I too believe the engines are merely confused at the moment.
Gearedenginefreak,
Thank you! If this works, I will be ecstatic!! I have to finish my non-train 8 hour of work first. (finger tapping and sighing)
jward,
My million dollar answer will be worth a nickel. I inherited this layout. I haven't been using the DS64 wired to this particular, problematic turnout or any others. I haven't spent my time in learning this aspect yet. I manually flip the switches and not that specific one very often (which could have revealed/caused this problem)!
So, would the SC64 been the correct power source for the reverse loop or should I go ahead and purchase OG AR (and keep procrastinating use of the SC64)?
Trainman203- thanks for the hope! I don't want to be a loco-murderess.
i can't find anything on the SC64 but i suspect it is similar to the current DS64 which is merely a stationary decoder meant to operate switch motors. if so, we now know what your problem is. I suspect that there is no autoreverser wired into your layout. In Fact, i suspect the reversing loop has no provision for changing the polarity of the loop at all. Is there by chance a toggle switch wired into this section to control it?
Two things MUST happen when you try to run a train through a reversing loop. First, the polarity if the loop MUST match the polarity of the track the train enters from. Second, while in the loop the polarity MUST be cg=hanged to match the track the train will exit from. If either of these fails to happen, you will have a dead short through your locomotive as it attempts to pass over the insulated gaps.
The autoreverser will automatically take care of both those tasks if installed and working properly. But you don't seem to have one.
First thing i'd do is try running trains around the layout without using the reversing loop. Having wired a dead short across a DCS50 Zephyr i can tell you first hand they are robust, tough little units. Mine survived and is still operable 15 years after this unfortunate incident, even if it did smell line smoke for a long time afterward. In you case, running some of your other locomotives will tell you if you've done any permanent damage to the Zephyr.
Once you've gotten that sorted out you can asses what if any damage you've done to the locomotive decoders, using the suggestions others have made.
Before you attempt to use that reverse loop again, make sure you have provisions for reversing polarity of that section independent of the direction control on the Zephyr. The autoreverser seems like a worthwhile investment. To be honest, i've never personally used one. On my past couple layouts, anywhere i needed a reversing section had only one entrance/exit and any needed switching of the polarity could be done using the extra contacts on a tortoise switch motor.
Sorry, Jeff, yikes, I was hit with dyslexia typing- SC64 is my code for DS64.
You are correct in that the only means I understood to address the reverse loop and changing polarity are those simplistic insulated joiners.
Much. to. Learn.
Thank you for this contribution and I will study it very closely now!
Lizz
DS64 makes sense. I couldn't find any mention of an SC64 even in the retired manuals section of digitrax website.
Now all you need is an AR1 autoreverser wired into that loop track according to the instructions that come with it and you should have no worries .
BTW, about the Zepjyr, how did the little fella fare?
Hi Jeff,
We happened to have a train show in town last weekend so I had it checked out and I think it's doing OK. I am optimistic about "Zee".
The jury is still out on my conviction of loco destruction.
I've been spending time tonight researching different reverse loop gizmos. Um, there is quite a variety! Now I know you like AR-1, but... I've read PSX-AR might be better (though more costly). When I reviewed the installation sheet, I nearly ran for the hills. AR-1 seems much easier to install, but everyone raves about PSX-AR. I should stick with cheap and simplicity, right?
I'm looking to get some PSX-ARs for my layout as well because they can operate the turnout as well as reverse the loop polarity. My trains like to derail on occasion because I forget to set the points.
However, there are two versions of PSX-AR: One for Tortoise switches, and another for snap coil switches.
Best make sure you get the correct one. ;)
Hi Flare,
I've gotta ask. Where are you going to purchase your PSX-AR?
Thanks for the tip! I didn't realize there were two types.
Quote from: Lizz on November 11, 2019, 10:25:20 PM
Hi Flare,
I've gotta ask. Where are you going to purchase your PSX-AR?
Thanks for the tip! I didn't realize there were two types.
Likely from whoever offers the best deal. :P
All,
What would happen if I installed 3 AR-1s, but I only actually needed two. Will the third installed AR-1 cause me problems if it truly did not exist in a reverse loop?
Seriously, this could be my very last question for this string!! Don't miss your opportunity to educate and as my mother would "to have the last word"! :D
AND I just realized that I am missing the PM42 I once had attached before dissembling for moving to new home. :o
I don't recommend the AR1. Had 2 fail on me. I get the PSX OG AR here: https://www.litchfieldstation.com/product/auto-reverse-module-for-dcc-basic/
Worth the extra money. And remember, the isolated part of the loop must be longer then the train going through it especially if you have metal wheels on your cars. Joe
Lizz,
The suspense is killing me. Did you get the loco(s) running again?
Gearedenginefreak,
IT WORKED!! On the first try for BOTH engines!!!! I can hardly believe it. I finally had time and didn't expect anything and it worked like magic!!
THANK YOU!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Awesome!!!!
Thanks for the update. Glad it worked!