Even though I'm American, I've acquired some wagons on eBay. I'm trying to find some locos though.
I have a few locomotives, coaches and wagons that I've purchased from Hatton's in Liverpool.
Their website is www.ehattons.com
This is no secret find.
As Bernard Matthews would say, "BOOTYFUL"- (he with the 160,000 turkeys in Norfolk to be culled because of a bird-flu outbreak this w/e)
Join the string petitioning for a OO heading on this board.
I've been collecting Branchline and the new BlueRibbon range since they first came on the market over a decade ago!
I know this site is mainly for the US stuff, but would be nice to have an OO section, seeing as the Bachmann UK site does not have such a facility.
Regards,
Stephen
I collect Branchlines ;D
I don't often talk to Myself, but.....
Yes I collect Bachmann Branchline locos. I, like 'Myself', buy from Hattons, who have been very reputable & inexpensive.
A note of caution though. The four axle tenders on the Bachmann Pacific class locos are all under the NMRA 'Back to Back' wheel standards. They have flat bearing surfaces, so prying them out is possible, but a little [a lot] scary due to the amount of force required.
If you are using Bachmann easy track or Peco point work it still goes through OK, but if you have fine scale, Shinohara or accurately hand laid point work, you may find the tender climbs over the check & wing rails.
Hornby locos also suffer from inaccurate back to back measurements as well.
It does not seem very important to the average British outline modeler, who must happily persevere with derailments et al.
Cheers to all,
& all the best to "Myself"
Mark
I have quite a bit of it. I have Green Arrow in BR green, a LNER V1, a BR green 4MT tender engine, a BR black class 08, a BR green class 20, and a class 66... and thats just the loco's!
Its alot better than that honby stuff! :P
Mark: I do not cmpletely understand.
Surely if the back to back was less than NMRA standard, it would catch the opposing check rail and hold the offending wheel off derailing. The problem as I see it is more likely the wheels riding the check rails themselves.
Ref prior, I am not refering to finescale.
I myself have a vast collection of Bachmann Branchline locos and rollingstock, recently bought a limited edition model of the LNER A4 'Silver Link' from Southampon Model Center.
I am a UK member by the way.
Hummmmmmmmm.
Bachmann and Hornby are 4mm gauge running on 16.5mm track.
Looking at NMRA Standards, they do not rule for this.
The NRMA "back to back" for OO is given as 16.9mm, and that would clearly be for EM gauge, where 4mm scale runs on 18.83mm track.
UK OO is 4mm:1 Foot SCALE, running on HO/OO GAUGE track of 16.5 mm
My collection of 90 OO locos ( Triang,Airfix, Hornby,Lima,Mainline, Bachmann ) all prefer code 100 rail, and No, we Brits don't put up with derailments.
David(UK):
Funny isn't it, that PECO is generally recognized as an exceptional quality product line for points and trackwork - and it isn't for derailments.
We Brit's think the same thing too!
Dear all,
Most of you will not like this but......
Peco is ok, but still toy like; you only have to run an NMRA HO gauge through it to see the imperfections. Having said that, Peco has been improving. They can't & never will however, be accurate & reliable for running when they pander to the British outline manufacturers. And if they do decide to be NRMA compliant, British outline will simply no longer operate on it - which will be the best thing they could do. Then the British outline wheelsets will have to comply as well & then you will realize operational nirvana.
Peco's flangeways are the width of football fields & British outline locos & rolling stock, with little to no attention to wheel standards, relies on "flanging" its way round the outside of the switch rail & through the frog, relegating the check rail to just a meaningless piece of detail. Why don't prototypical railways operate this way? I guess the death & destruction thing scares them. Now you know why a new Hornby locos has wheel flanges the size of dinner plates.
Finescale & handlaid track tends to have the correct width flangeways, & as a consequence the "CHECK RAILâ€;with rolling stock with NMRA HO standard wheelsets, becomes OPERATIONAL - this means the flange going through the frog is guided away from the frog apex & hence no derailments - just like the real thing.
NB : Conical wheel profiles & gentle curves on turnouts means the flange only comes in contact with the check rail in extremes in prototypical operation, but the rules still apply!
At the Philadelphia show in July 2006, Fastracks displayed an absolute crowd pleaser. A tilting table that demonstrated how their NMRA HO Standard trackwork & wheelsets operate perfectly. What the table did is slowly rock back and forth allowing a stock boxcar to roll over the double crossover that was constructed using Fast Tracks fixtures. Each time the table would rock, all four turnouts would switch, and the car would roll through a different route.
This worked flawlessly throughout the entire show, cycling about 50,000 times, and never a single derailment!!!!!
I have been running British outline for over forty years & have been though all the problems associated with inadequate track & incorrect 'Back to Back' wheelsets. When I started to model US outline, & bought locos & rolling stock with wheelsets that follow "a" standard [NMRA] I discovered prototypical running, instead of the 'Train Set' standards accepted in British outline.
Don't get me wrong, I dearly love my British outline stock & am livid that I can no longer run half of it, as it no longer operates on my NMRA HO track.
The truly sad thing is, Bachmann & to a greater extend Hornby seem to pay less attention to wheel standards, the more expensive the loco is.
As I mentioned earlier, Bachmann eight wheel Tenders suffer as do Hornby MNs, BoBs, LMS & LNER pacifics from this problem. The Back to Back measurement is all under standard, & we're not talking about one wheelset being out - in some cases EVERY wheelset is out by varying degrees - shocking!
The Stanier pacifics are the worse with four different Back to Back measurements varying by up to 1mm & everyone under the NMRA HO standard. This causes the wheelsets to ride up over the Wing & Check rails on NMRA HO standard track, as they are way to narrow.
If you're used to US OUTLINE NMRA standard locos, then British outline will seem like a trip to the Toy shop by comparison.
But you really have to experience Propelling over sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers consecutively, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph to really appreciate how a uniform standard for track & Wheels [NMRA] improves running.
NB : The scale 50mph in reverse was achieved while testing trackwork only. I do not usually operate this way.
I'm terribly sorry if this offends some readers; I know it used to offend me too. I used to defend the British Outline faith fervently. But I have swallowed my pride & admitted defeat & now I try to get the British Outline manufacturers to raise the bar & follow standards as well. It's not rocket science - the same Chinese factories that pump out Accurate US outline also pumps out inaccurate British outline. Bachmann UK & Hornby need only request NMRA wheel standards & it will be manufactured that way!
What is a standard?
Look on your wall -
see the power point -
now plug something in -
did it go in easily?
If YES you have "a Standard".
Now get your plug & bend the tines askew - just a little - looks the same!
Now FOOOORCE it into the power point - difficult? Yes!
Did you get it in? Well Yeah? Just.
Now which one would you prefer!!!
This is the difference between following NMRA standards & having no particular standard in model railroading. In everything else you do in your life, would you accept "close enough is good enough". I doubt it! You're typing on a QWERTY keyboard - it follows a standard. Your door key opens the lock - a standard again. If these things were slightly imperfect, you would not accept it! So why accept it on your hobby?
While 00 stock runs on HO track, it should follow HO standards.
I'll just go get my flak jacket - back in a mo'
Cheers.
Mark
P.S. Hornby & Bachmann British oultine locomotives in most cases are fine runners & have great detail, & are a huge improvement on what was produced before. My comments were only against the products wheelsets. Peco track although Robust and well made does not meet the standards set down by the NMRA.
And just why should we have to pander to the NMRA ?
All Hornby and Bachmann wheelsets are to RP25 standards and they run fine on my my Peco, Hornby,Airfix, Mainline, Lima track, even Bachmann EZ track.
Peco track was built for the european market, just so happens a lot of other people like Peco track - perhaps it is your NMRA track that is out of standard to the rest of the world?
David,
Like you, I have a fondness for Hornby [Tri-ang, scalectric] Wren, Bachmann uk & Peco. But liking something, even a lot, does not make it work better.
Peco has already made moves to gain a larger share of the US market by producing track closer to NMRA standards.
We should pander to the NMRA standard because 00 scale uses HO scale track & therefore should follow that standard. If a Euro tourist drove his left hand drive car on the right hand side of the road in the UK, I should think you'd be a bit miffed. If he chooses to drive his euro car in the UK, he should follow the STANDARDS there.
I mentioned the varying Back to Back measurements on all the New Hornby Pacifics. In the worst case, it equates to eight inches difference in prototypical terms - can you imagine the carnage. Actually there would be none as the it would not make it out of the yard.
RP-25 - Hornby loosely follows this recommended practice, but does not follow other more important standards. Bachmann UK does follow RP-25 closely, & tends to follow the NMRA standards as well - to a certain degree; see eight axle tenders mentioned earlier.
We must remember the NMRA standards have been with us since 1936. One of the reasons it was created was because of this topic. Below is the beginning of the second item in the NMRA mission statement. Rather a humble line...certainly nothing to feel threatened by.
"The purposes of the National Model Railroad Association are, in part, to promote, stimulate, foster and encourage by all manner and means the art and craft of model railroading, to preserve of the history, science and technology thereof, and to advance the global model railroading community through education, development of standards and recommended practices, advocacy, and social interaction".
Mark,
OO is a compromise, where the development of "Toy Trains" has been an evolving process to one of "Model Railways/Railroad"
You appear to me to be well vested in these matters. I think it is only fair that you disclose your interest if it goes beyond this forum.
It is all well and fine for NMRA to rule on HO, but they have not ruled for OO running on 16.5mm track.
Finescale 4mm OO runs on 18.83mm.
Regards
Stewart
Mark,
I see you argue for OO on HO track to conform to the NMRA for HO.
It is 4mm, not 3.5, and the NMRA clearance standards on lineside/platforms/curves will also be out of whack.
Just how flexible are these standards?
Hmmmm. NMRA - National Model Railroad Association.
Definition of National
Characteristic of or peculiar to the people of a nation;
Limited to or in the interests of a particular nation;
Of or relating to or belonging to a nation or country.
ie We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us! ;D
David has it. While NMRA is growing in esteem, I think NMRA is far from perfect in bringing togther standards "Internationally"
In 1946 my dad bought me a TRIX HO out of a Toy Shop window layout in Northampton. It was made pre-war and was tinplate. It was also "course scale", as was Hornby "Duble O" sic.
HO itself has had very rough beginnings, and for the NMRA to rule "National Standards" - that is all that it is.
Europe has MOROP. 220v, 50 cycles, and bayonet fittings, and a multiplicity of "National" interests that make their conventions "International".
Still it is nice to know all my 0n30 stock runs very well on my "Peco, Hornby,Airfix, Mainline, Lima track, even Bachmann EZ track"
;D ;D
If this "back to back" issue had merit, then I too would have problems running OO UK Hornby/Bachmann/Mainline/Dapol on US/European HO specific points/turnouts, and that has not been my experience.
Stewart,
Quote : "I think it is only fair that you disclose your interest if it goes beyond this forum".
My interests in this matter goes way beyond this forum, but are personal & I have no affiliation with any body, group or company. My interests are to help secure the future of this great hobby. It is dieing away - have you noticed? Hornby was at the doors of receivership & is only with us because it adopted motors in the [Merchant Navy class] loco in 2000, just as the bulk of their customers wanted. If they would have persisted with their Tender drive, they would be long gone.
Although my head is impressed by US outline, my heart belongs to British outline. When I see how perfectly US outline runs due to Standards being applied to track & wheel, it breaks my heart to think British outline will not conform to any standard, not even 00.
Quote : "It is 4mm, not 3.5, and the NMRA clearance standards on lineside/platforms/curves will also be out of whack".
This is true & I would not expect you to change any of these. I am only drawing your attention to the very thing that makes operations functional, the all important wheel & track standards combination. If you don't have this, then you're 'winging it' every time you run though your turnouts.
Quote : "If this "back to back" issue had merit, then I too would have problems running OO UK".
Does "back to back" have merit - ask the prototypical railroads. :)
I mentioned earlier how I can back sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers in succession, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph. You cannot do this without having the Wheels Back to Back & the turnouts, crossings etc, mating.
If I have a derailment with rolling stock that complies with a standard, it is not a case of "oh, well. I'll just put that back on the track & carry on". It is a matter of concern, because I have eliminated to a great extent, the "CHANCE" of a derailment by Standards, so that if one occurs, I know there is a tangible problem. This is something I can fix, be it a wheelset not conforming or faulty, or the trackwork is out, or broken. The Problem can be solved.
What I really don't want to fix is my late model Hornby pacifics in order for them to run successfully on any turnout, even Peco. To rectify the fault with these locos requires a complete strip down to bare Driver, Leading & Trailing & Tender wheelsets, adjusting to the correct Back to Back, then requartering the driving wheels & reassembling the loco. If you have any of Hornby or Bachmann late model steam locos, you know how wonderfully cluttered with fragile detail they are. Not to mention the delicacy of the connecting rods, crossheads & valve gear. All of which will be in jeopardy from a strip down.
It seems odd to me, that at no additional cost to anyone, this problem could be solved at the factory, by applying correct Back to Back measurements.
In regards to your 00 UK stock running OK. It depends a lot on what it is. As mentioned earlier British outline products seem not to follow any standards on their wheelsets. Indeed I have lots of smaller 00 locos & rolling stock which accidentally or not, do conform to correct Back to Back & all run perfectly on NMRA HO & reasonably well on Peco.
They still run on Peco because the flanges [that do follow RP-25 for maximum flange height], still do not comply to the flange profile, instead opting for an angled flat face with sharp flanges to "FLANGE" around the outside of Peco turnouts as they do not use the Check rail. In this case you could argue that two wrongs, make a right. But, this is putting in a patch to make the outcome appear more acceptable. The smart money would be to rectify the Cause of the problem, not modify the result.
==============
David
Quote : "We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us!".
Yes you're absolutely right, you don't have to. But in the absence of correctly gauged 00 track & manufacturers who refuse to adhere to any standard at all in regards to wheel standards, the best option would be to follow a standard that is in place & works.
Back to Back standards & accompanying track standards are a measurable engineering certainty, resulting in calculated efficiency & reliability.
=======================
David & Stewart, I don't mean to offend you, but I believe I have. Your faith & steadfastness does you credit, & I admire that. Your friends must be very comfortable when you're around.
Quote
I mentioned earlier how I can back sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers in succession, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph.
Unquote.
Hmmm, not exactly protypical is it?
And don't forget OO is geared towards the British modeller who rarely has the luxury of running trains anywhere near that layout size in the average UK House - true a few Model railway clubs could possibly achieve a train set of that length, but they'd get laughed out of the hall if they tried your trick.
David,
This is the original statement I referred to :
quote : "But you really have to experience Propelling over sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers consecutively, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph to really appreciate how a uniform standard for track & Wheels [NMRA] improves running.
NB : The scale 50mph in reverse was achieved while testing trackwork only. I do not usually operate this way."
As it says this was a TEST ONLY, as I knew it was an impossible task to propel even ten 00 or HO wagons through a couple of Peco points at a around a scale 15 mph[a realistic speed even for a short layout] reliably without a derailment.
I wanted to see what my new NMRA wheels & track is capable of & it exceeded my expectation to the point of making several runs at this speed, I thought I better quit - just in case. Yes, I was pretty incredulous to, but that is why I am pushing for modeling of prototypical standards, to achieve prototypical running.
Also there was Fast Tracks 50,000 cycles over matched track & wheels, without a derailment - this would be absolutely impossible with 00 scale on Peco Turnouts.
Note: I believe Peco make a fine product that is reliable & robust, & I would never want any harm to come to them, but they need to go that one step further to achieve a true model representation of prototypical pointwork.
Stewart wrote "OO is a compromise, where the development of "Toy Trains" has been an evolving process to one of "Model Railways/Railroad"". This is true & as 00 scale models are starting to now LOOK like the prototypes, maybe they should run like prototypes. It is completely achieveable now.
This string has boiled-down to a HOOT.
The local MRC for PECO staff is Axminster MRC. Their layout in a private garage is/was of US practice, on Santa Fe etc. - all US manufacture locos and rolling stock.
They are not going to be buying someone elses trackwork for it - and there is/was a lot of it!
Peco have "Universal Code 100" where the flange heights are greater.
I agree, NMRA have taken the cudgel to DCC. Bachmann have initially entered the market on the back of Lenz with their accredited manufacture; although they have gone elsewhere for Dynamis. I think if Hornby are to be in the DCC market, they should submit to NMRA Standards for DCC.
From my e-mail - TODAY
"Hornby has promised to send us their system for conformance testing. To date, we have not received their unit.
Didrik Voss, MMR
Manager, C&I Group
Manager, S&C Dept
NMRA"
Dear All,
If my entries appeared in any way derisive, pls accept my sincerest apologies. I do get a little passionate sometimes. Thankyou for drawing my attention to it Stewart.
Cudgel - I have never seen or heard this word - I looked it up though - good word - learning all the time!
Mark,
Please don't feel that way. There was no intention against you.
I was writing to the fact that Hornby are also keeping NMRA waiting on the DCC project. The hoot being that Hornby will string things out for as long as they can to settle OO standards running on 16.5mm gauge.
Bachmann have now stolen the march on Hornby with the new Dynamis carrying NMRA certification.
Regards
Quote from: David(UK) on February 09, 2007, 10:04:51 AM
Hmmmm. NMRA - National Model Railroad Association.
Definition of National
Characteristic of or peculiar to the people of a nation;
Limited to or in the interests of a particular nation;
Of or relating to or belonging to a nation or country.
ie We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us! ;D
few things are more precious than a proud Briton standing tall against the oppression of the NMRA ;)
keddiewye : But the market it is still good enough for Bachmann Europe to produce some pretty good "Branchline" and "Blue Ribbon" models.
I just luv-em!
Regards
how does the branchline stuff run?
smooth as atlas?
how about hornby?
I've admired all the euro stuff fro years, but have never seen how smoothly they run
G'Day keddiewye,
I find Bachmann Branchline locomotives runs very smoothly, have excellent detail, & with the exception of the eight wheel tenders, follow NRMA wheel standards pretty closely.
They are however geared just a little [& I mean Just a little] too high. US outline locos seem to gear their locos a little better. I have several British outline locos capable of scale 250 mph - beat that Mallard - oh wait a minute - I think that is my Mallard? [I think we found the answer to your speed record thread Stewart ;) If they were geared a little lower, say, a scale 150mph their low speed running would be as good as US outline.
Hornby are in the same boat, except they pay little attention to NMRA wheel standards, but run OK, albeit with more chance of derailments.
I have over 170 British outline ranging back to my first loco; a Tri-ang 0-4-0T in yellow, my father bought me to the latest BoB's, Britannias & 9f's, & love them all.
There is something about a large Brit' in motion - it appears to move effortlessly & faster than the wheels seem to turn - Elegance in motion.
The tenders are large enough for DCC with SOUND [two speakers], so I hope they will get on the band wagon soon. I hope they adopt the BLi type wiring harness, that plugs directly into the back of the loco & in line with the tender with the excess wire disappearing into the tender & not dragged along the ground. Can only hope.
If the prototypes never existed, someone would have created Model Trains anyway.
With a little judicious work, it is possible to change the worm gear ratios. I get this with brass and white metal models I build and that need good slow running properties, generally 40:1 and 50:1.
Quote from: Mark Damien on February 22, 2007, 06:41:00 AM
G'Day keddiewye,
I find Bachmann Branchline locomotives runs very smoothly, have excellent detail, & with the exception of the eight wheel tenders, follow NRMA wheel standards pretty closely.
They are however geared just a little [& I mean Just a little] too high. US outline locos seem to gear their locos a little better. I have several British outline locos capable of scale 250 mph - beat that Mallard - oh wait a minute - I think that is my Mallard? [I think we found the answer to your speed record thread Stewart ;) If they were geared a little lower, say, a scale 150mph their low speed running would be as good as US outline.
Hornby are in the same boat, except they pay little attention to NMRA wheel standards, but run OK, albeit with more chance of derailments.
I have over 170 British outline ranging back to my first loco; a Tri-ang 0-4-0T in yellow, my father bought me to the latest BoB's, Britannias & 9f's, & love them all.
There is something about a large Brit' in motion - it appears to move effortlessly & faster than the wheels seem to turn - Elegance in motion.
The tenders are large enough for DCC with SOUND [two speakers], so I hope they will get on the band wagon soon. I hope they adopt the BLi type wiring harness, that plugs directly into the back of the loco & in line with the tender with the excess wire disappearing into the tender & not dragged along the ground. Can only hope.
If the prototypes never existed, someone would have created Model Trains anyway.
to the american train fan's eye, the British and other European equipment is magically exotic. I wish it was more available over here. It would be nice to go to shop and actually touch the stuff before I buy. I really dont like to buy train stuff online.
thanks for the excellent infomation;)