This has been hashed ad nauseum, but wanted to throw in my nickel, should say a dollar with inflation.
When I first thought of model railroading a year ago, I had no concept of trains, full size or scale. I live in the remote mountains and no one else here has trains.
After a little research, I called Bachmann for a catalog, had it in 5 days and they paid the shipping. After looking through the catalog I was hooked. "Our" first train was a Roaring Ridge, my wife said it was neat and wanted it just to display on the mantle. But she did put it all together and ran the thing before displaying, after all it's her train. The 56 X 38 EZ track was a nice start for me as well.
Some more research, and the Spectrum line seemed to be the best bang for the buck. Never heard of DCC pertaining to locos, but am very familiar with digital packets, sattelites and GPS. DCC equipped yet compatible with DC? That's for me. I asked my wife if she wanted me to DCC her loco, she told me to leave it alone.
So which do I prefer? Don't really know yet and may never have a preference. Sometimes my wife likes to run her train, so I plug in her DC pack. I run double heads of DCC diesels on DC with no problem. I have 2 EZ Commands, (one for a spare) sometimes it's fun to have several consists in the yard, run one awhile, park it, then run another, but that can be done with a few switches on DC, or to be able to double head with cab forward on the lead and reverse for the rear like they do here with the coal trains, but again I can put a tiny DIP switch in the cab to do that.
I tried sound, didn't like it and sent it back. Also bought an MRC Advance Squared, didn't like the continuous throttle so back it went. I'm not knocking the DCC turnouts but I don't need them, I can reach the Caboose Ind manual throws or add a couple of leads for a remote switch. I admit to being intrigued at first, but decided against them.
I don't follow polls or ratios, or buy something simply because "Everyone has it" just to be popular or accepted. You know, the "Big Kauhuna" (sp) says to eat kangaroo so everyone wants Rooburgers.
I don't know the future of DCC, but DC will never be extinct, (as some have inferred) at least not in my lifetime. Remember the "conversion" can be both ways. I have a friend who buys DCC equipped, but rewires and sends me the circuit board. I have several boards from my "Goat" projects. My wife may someday change her mind about her loco. Having her for a railroading companion is my greatest pleasure so I keep it simple for her sake.
A magazine article said that one day you will be able to program an operation sequence, then sit back in the easy chair and watch a continuous computer controlled session. I can believe that, lots of people have more dollars than sense.
Ok, your turn. Except for the automated thing, tell me what can be done with DCC that can't be done with DC, and let's moderate that just for average layouts, average modelers with average needs. Facts, not opinions.
When someone tells me their opinion, I just say ok, and go on. Doesn't mean I agree with them, but so what.? Webster has one definition of "opinion" that is often true "A belief held often without knowledge or proof" I rarely offer opinions, unless someone asks me, and I qualify it by saying I have no documented proof. In other words, I have absolutely no clue what I am talking about at the time, just trying to help or make suggestions.
I once held up a sheet of white paper and asked a guy what color it was. He refused to answer, because we might be in agreement and he could never tolerate that.
Bob
I was visiting the Festiniog Railway in Wales many years ago. A volunteer explained manual blocks, -keyed- manual blocks, one key per section of track. It rides on a hook in one engine. No other trains can ever get on that section of main, till they either get that key in their posession, or it was left at the far end unlocking the main for a following train, who's still in the last block. That's how they kept things on the rails... I like that idea.. Old fasioned big layouts were like this. Block after block. Unless they are double headers, I, like the world's 1st two footer, don't like 2 engines on one-block/section- of track, I have 7 blocks on my 320 feet (not a misprint) of main- but that's on 3 levels, one double tracked, so 4 or 5 trains in motion at once is too much, 99 at once?? I know, triple headers, switchers cutting off cars from a stopped express, but I don't really see me doing that too often. I do like sound, and I get that from quantums, on DC, with my panels full of double pull double thro antiques.... people modeling new stuff, mu's with ditch lights, strobes, dimming at a meet, guess they GOT to go dcc.....but at the last show I was at, the clubs with dcc spent as much time as I would trying to get things to roll ...... not too impressive....
Thanks Tony, that's the kind of response I like. I get a bit rattled when someone says if you don't run DCC, you're a dummy, or if you do run it you're a snob, and it gets to be a big bruhaha. My goodness, I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun, well it is for me, but some take it a higher level I guess.
I have enough trouble controlling one consist realistically, let alone multiples. I don't go through elaborate switching operations, I have a fiddle track and decouple by hand mostly. I do have a Pix Stik but can't see well enough to use it. Actually the whole layout is a fiddle track as I have lots of re-railers for set outs.
Bob
DCC for me....
I like the lighting effects........selectable and adjustable.
Motor settings to tune the loco...selectable and adjustable.
Sound......selectable and adjustable.
And lack of wiring block systems into my layout.....and insulating rails ect.
Plus i love Soldering in decoders speakers and lights into a once lifeless chassis.
With low end intro dcc systems(no programming ect) you have not seen what you CAN do with Dcc....All the settings and tunning make the locos perform better ,add inertia...set start up volts and speed curves ect .
And to add just one light effect in DC it would cost $20-30 per circuit(retail) and do nothing else for the loco....as a decoder can.
If all you can do is drive the train (cheap dcc systems) then your not much better than dc conventional control if you ask me..And have not fully seen DCC in action.....Unless its a Fully operational DCC system..That lets you program..its a waste.....and handicapped.
I could have used blocks on my small RR but im glad i chose DCC.
As for operational problems......Move your RR to a mall ......set it back up and
you will have problems also......and have to fiddle and re-tune tracks ect.
Add 20 operators with different opinions and ideas and its going to cause problems.....DC or DCC.
Jim
Bob,
For whatever it is worth, I have been at this train thing a long time (1967) and have a pretty strong electrical background.
There are lots of different control systems even within the realm of DC before we even consider DCC. And the full automation computer based approach you mentioned can (and has) been done with or without DCC as the basis for actually controlling the locos.
I believe control systems should be tailored to the specific operational goals of the layout owner and to the size, style and concept of the particular layout.
DCC is great for some layouts/operators, but to assume it is "perfect" for everyone and everything is far from true.
One problem beginners face is that they may not know how they want to operate their layout because they have not learned much about that aspect of the hobby.
Another factor is cost/complexity. As layout size increases and desired operational flexibility increases, wiring infrastructure will increase regardless of the type of control. All the big layouts I have seen with DCC have just as much wiring under them as the most complex DC systems.
In general DCC assumes that you always want a very intimate experiance of "being the locomotive engineer" as oppossed to just observing the train, or trains as they run through the scene. This in my opinion is one of its limitations.
I personally do not care for sound in smaller scales like HO, so DCC is not needed to control that. I have a large fleet of locos too new to be shelf queens but that did not come DCC equiped. The cost of adding decoders alone would be a large investment. I do not use DCC.
To read more about how I control my layout with wireless radio throttles and how I am helping others do the same, see the thread in the "general discussion" about "radio control for HO". I will bump it to the top to make it easier to find.
Sheldon
Sheldon
You hit the nail on the head, I haven't been in model RR long enough to know where I want to go with it. That's why I'm just experimenting at this stage.
My background (and age) are now my stumbling blocks. Around here people "know" me as a dumb retired cattle rancher who busted his butt for 20 years to build a nest egg.
In earlier life I had an FCC technicians license with a degree in electronic engineering. At one point, I designed circuitry to monitor optical coatings used by NASA. Of course, my employer got the patent, I just got a healthy bonus and royalty. That's when I decided to stop using my brain to make others richer, and moved to Colorado to test the waters.
When renewable energy became buzz words, I became a dealer and installed Solar/Wind power systems for remote homes. All our wells are solar powered. I have suggested a solar powered garden layout with regulated 12VDC. Batteries provide the power, panels merely charge the batteries.
More recently I got involved in GPS and radio packets to track teams in Search and Rescue, teaching cartography and navigation to members.
Today all the equipment I have is a Fluke DVM and clampon ammeter. So what's my problem? I'm tired of thinking, my brain is fried, and just want to have fun with my trains. If I were 20 years younger (heard that before?) I would be inclined to build an elaborate block system such as yours, perhaps a second layout with all DCC, and compare the two systems.
I don't intend to go wireless, but would like to learn more about block systems before I invest in higher end DCC. Toward that end, schematics would be helpful.
Bob
DCC and DC and Marklin AC for me.When my garage is cleaned up, all three will be running on the same geographical location. that means three power sources with its own unique characteristic. the common thread is HO scale, unless i decide to add Z scale and garden scale. I am going to die with a lot of toys.
So, Yamba Bob is a retired mad scientist huh? If you get stumped on dcc...the rest of us don't have a hope.... As Shelton said, all the leads going to a buss, are...either divided into blocks, or all live at once for dcc. so a lead soldered to a rail joiner is a lead for either- right? I just figured, as I found out how big my layout was getting in an 11x19 chunck of cellar, as I was on the fence with dcc....hey, turn everything on at once hooked to a dpdt switch should go from dc to dcc...in an instant...shouldn't it? The power is different, but the metal is the same, who says you can't experiment with dcc on on block? Or the whole layout go from one to the other at yer lesuire? I know, power surges, the carma of code 100 flex track, I don't buy it. Why not both? either, with a dpdt? And as you expand from your loop, just wire each addition as an insulated block...which can be left live to keep a dcc an option..... my knowledge of ac or dc was which type of welding rod I was using...no help at all in this line of work....ups!..hobby....
I have only receintly went to DCC. I had a Digitrax system that was given to me last year. The unit was bad and I did not like the results I was getting. I went back to DC. 2 months ago I tried DCC again. I now have the Bachmann Ez-dcc system. I love it. I have a 14 X 22 "L" shaped layout. It has Folded 2 loops with a yard, engine area, and a wharf area. I only have 4 engines that ARE DCC. 2 have sound. I am going to convert all 33 engines to DCC, with dual mode decoders. I have a friend that is a DCC Wizard and charges only $10.00 to convert engines to be DCC ready. I can do this at my leisure and still can run all of the ones I want. I just have to move them on and off of the "dead" tracks! Yes I like pushing 1 button, and then working another train!!
I went to DCC for two reasons. The first is I like the sound. Now, being retired artillery, back when an XO on the firing line wearing ear plugs would loose all respect at once, my hearing isn't real sharp. So itx works for me. The second is that it does simplify wiring. My layout has a total of four power districts:
Staging, East Penninsula, West Penninsula,and Leesboro/South River Yard. HOWEVER, the engine storage tracks inStaging and probably the yard tracks and the round house will all have a on/off switch so that when I turn on power I don't get thirty DCC, most with sound, coming alive at the same time. So that adds a bit of difficulty to wiring.
My layout is large enough to warrant considering DCC. I think that putting DCC on a 4x8 is a waste of money. Even I was able to block a 4x8 with no problem.
I think considerations are:
size
number of proposed operators/number of trains
desired extras. For instance, steam did not run with headlights on in the daylight until late in their lifetime. Some kid today told me my J-2s headlight was burned out. No. It was turned off because it was daytime and she was on the point of the C&O George Washington, still all Pullman Green. You can't do that with DC.
Gene
As I mentioned, I have a lot of fun with DCC on my small layout. Is there a specific size where DCC begins to have an advantage?
One reason I wanted to try DCC is because I wasn't satisfied with the throttle control of my Magnum. I like things to happen when I turn the dial a few degress from off. Nothing moves until I reach about the 9 O'clock position. It's like having too much free play in the clutch of my pickup. I prefer more sensitive controls, a holdover from RC.
The EZ works exactly the same. I can't adjust CVs yet, I have read that the startup threshold can be lowered. Switch selected sensitivity seems a better option (dual rates) than fiddling with CVs. Both the Magnum and EZ have excellent snail speeds.
Pondering DCC is like standing at the edge of the pool, can't learn to swim till you dive in. The EZ at least got my feet wet, but I'm still leary of deeper waters.
A hidden DIP in the tender can turn the lights off and on.
Tony: My experience means I can probably plug it into the wall, maybe. Ask me DCC questions and you get a dumb look. An analog brain in a digital world.
Bob
It all depends on what you are trying to do. If all you want to do is build a small layout or a layout where you want to watch a couple of trains run while you or a friend does some switching than DC is fine. However, if you want more complicated multi user operation you should consider DCC. I have been in this hobby for a long time and have wired a large DC block type layout for running multiple trains and it is a pain compared to DCC and even then you can't approach the flexability of DCC.
From a realism standpoint there is a very fundamental difference between the two. In DC you operate the track in DCC you actually operate the trains! Again it all depends on what you want to do. The more complex your operations are going to be the more you should lean towards DCC.
With DCC you can run multi head trains with different locomotive because you can "Speed Match" totally different locomotives to run together. You can run a helper service. You can run 20 trains on the same track at differant speeds in different directions. You can adjust start, mid and max voltage on each locomotive. You can change the acceleration curve, momentum and so many other things, just too many to mention here. There are also some sound functions you can't get with DC. You can also run DCC and use non of these features.
I am building a large 17ft x 34ft HO layout with an NCE Power Pro DCC System. I will be having operating sessions with 5 to 8 people running the railroad. I could not imagine doing this with DC. On the other hand there will also be a logging shortline operation and a mine railroad as seperate one person operations. They will most likely be DC because I see no operational benifit to spending money for decoders for these locomotives that will never be required to travel on the main line. Of coarse there will be safety features to prevent a locomotive from crossing between DCC and DC track.
Like the gentleman who has 150 DC locomotives there is no way I would switch to DCC. However, if you are just starting out, don't have much equipment and have decided that model railroading is for you, I would go DCC!
I think Geoff explained the difference in a nut shell! Like the Festinog- and me, dc operates the track. Dcc operates the trains. I still wish someone would let us know if a small layout could go from one to the other with a double pull....i'm gettin' itchy to find out the hard way.... you ain't the only mad scienist Bob!! You sell solar panels??? I'll have to put on my snow shoes and help you with this layout......
I'm getting some great advice, making notes along the way. I appreciate everyone's courteous candor.
At this point I'm glad I can't adjust CVs.
Here's the scenario: Guy gets a brand new DCC loco, starts it up and it has a little surge at slow speeds, maybe some roughness at mid throttle, a few groans or growls, so he immediately starts messing with the CVs or takes it completly apart before even breaking the thing in.
The longer I run my locos, the quieter they become. So far the only benefit I've gleaned is the ability to adjust startup voltage with DCC, and run multiple locos. I think the maximum I could handle on my layout is maybe 2 at the most, and then only when I have 2 separate loops to run on. Of course I do like the "park one run another" benefit. I have 8 active locos, (4 in the "shed") would be nice to have them all available without having to isolate sidings and using switches.
The next question is a bit "off the wall", but I'm curious.
What about the voltage and amperage characteristics of DCC? With DC, it's a walk in the park, but measuring Digital requires a scope. It's not AC but rather a "clock signal" square wave. So I'm only concerned about such practical things as smoothness, linearity, and I suppose overall efficiency. I've read the features, but like to know the benefits toward realistic railroading.
So far I can't see any difference in these aspects, between DC and DCC. Overall, I'm probably giving a very tiny edge toward the DCC. (almost a photo finish at the line) I'm referring to the EZ I have, I don't foresee any windfall in the near future to justify upgrading to a higher end unit.
Perhaps when (I should say "if") my wife ever lets me DCC her Roaring Ridge, I might store the Magnum. I keep suggesting, she just says leave it alone.
Bob
Bob,
How large is the layout you are planning? If it's any size at all, you don't need a double track mainline to run two trains. All you need is one or more passing sidings for meets. I have a single track mainline, but can see four trains at one time, plus switching in the yard and in one or two towns.
Gene
Bob,
May I recommend a good book or two? Paul Mallery wrote two great books on wiring that discuss all forms of DC and DCC and cover all the basics very well. He was a giant in this hobby until his death last year. His was an electrical engineer by profession and writes in a very objective, technically accurate and professional style.
His two books, "Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads - vol 1&2" are available from Carstens, the peoplewho publish Railroad Model Craftsmen.
To all,
I will agree with the discription of "with DCC you run the train, with DC you run the track", but will remind everyone once again, that can be both good and bad.
DCC makes you the Engineer, in a very intimate way. If that is your only goal or even your main goal, than DCC is most likely for you. It also generally assumes "walk around" control as part of that intimate relationship. There are times when I like walk around control, thats why I use wireless throttles, but I do not see it as the only way I want to operate my layout.
BUT, if you want to run a big system of two or three or six trains all by your self, or if you want the flexiblity to run your layout several different ways, or you want signaling, detection or CTC control, or you have lots of hidden track in your layout scheme - you may want to understand the added costs and infrastructure needed to do these things with DCC.
Truth is adding any of the features listed above to DCC is just as complex as adding those features to DC and often much more costly. Running the track actually gives you some advantages for many of the goals listed above. Any kind of automation, or semi automation or even simple collision avoidance is much easier/less expensive with DC.
Again it gets back to style of operation. I feel many of you have not seen layouts operated in these other methods and therefore do not fully understand the why or how that would make someone want to operate differently from what you are doing.
As a long time modeler who has been exposed to lots of layouts with lots of different control schemes (DCC and DC), I am not "locked" into the current fashion trend of walk around control - in fact, sometimes I love to just be a railfan and stand in the same place and watch the train. And I want to be able to do that on my layout without inviting twelve people over to run the trains for me.
Example - I model a large Class I system in 1954, 13 scale miles of double track, stagging for 25 trains, train lengths 35 cars+ (18-20 actual feet). I need and want detection, signaling and colision avoidance, 6-8 trains will run at once, with or without a crew of 6-12 operators. My layout room is 22' x 40'. My goal is to model a small section of a VERY BIG railroad and for it to look busy as trains come and go. I also want to be able to have "operating sessions" with a crew of operators - I want both, an operation layout and a display layout.
IF I where modeling a small branch line, single track main, no hidden stagging, two or three trains a day like the Ma & Pa - in my same layout space, there is a high likelyhood I would use DCC. Its a different kind of railroad, with different operating goals from both a model and prototype stand point. DCC would have many advantages for such a layout - but that layout would not need 150 powered locos either, or train detection for 25 stored trains in stagging.
Sheldon
" I'm not knocking the DCC turnouts but I don't need them, I can reach the Caboose Ind manual throws or add a couple of leads for a remote switch. I admit to being intrigued at first, but decided against them."
My first post, I had mentioned how I enjoyed the DCC turnouts and you being only one who replied; that you would considered them
Crazy how each one of us likes or dislike different systems but then that is being human.
As for the DCC turnouts - that is what make the DCC work so well for me. I helped my Dad set up a HO system back in 1949 where we ran wire from solenoids to toggles switches. So when I discovered DCC did this with no wires, I dove in again after almost 60 years. Glad I Did. Having Fun
Just my dollars worth.
HO: I remember your post, and yes at the time I was seriously considering the DCC turnout. I am just having second thoughts which is very normal for me.
I intend to buy a good book on wiring, just haven't decided which one. Atlas has some, Carstens has others as you mentioned. I want an advanced book, not one that starts out with 2 chapters on electrical theory, how to solder and wire gauge ampacities. Due to vision problems, I want lots of diagrams with as little text as possible. In other words, "Don't tell me, show me". Schematics rule, text drools.
Gene: I'm starting small with the intention of expanding. (it's a matter of age and expected longevity ) I don't, as yet have the length needed for "pass and meet" sidings. I don't really want double tracks, I figure if one train looks dumb going in circles, 2 loops just doubles the dumbness, right?
My goal will be a mainline from Denver through the Moffat Tunnel, to Grand Junction, with the branch line I now have serving several towns and our ranch. I'm remodeling my office/shop in the garage, and that will give me a 12' X 20' room. That will be the point where I have to make some hard decisions. I don't like "shoulda, coulda" so I plan my projects years in advance. Of course the older one gets, the more urgent the project.
I have a few more questions and comments but will stop here and add later. I'm pasting all these great comments into a pdf when I get the software.
Bob
Bob,
Trains may look dumb doing circles, but they look just as dumb only going 10 or 20 times there length and stopping and having to be turned, reconfigured.
I am a big fan of continious running with hidden stagging to get that sense of the train entering and leaving the modeled scene. One train enters, runs through the modeled scene, then exits to the stagging. Another, from the either direction, enters and passes through, etc, etc. Stored trains appear, some stop, get switched, etc, then leave, other just pass through, just like the real railroads.
Much more realistic than point to point runs that are too short to be realistic in my opinion. I model only one of each major feature on my layout. One large yard, one engine termnal, one large city, one large pasenger termnal, etc.
Sheldon
Sheldon: Good points, and I agree. I'm beginning to see why layouts, small or large use visual barriers to give the illusion of time like park a train in a tunnel or blind, then have it reappear later. I plan to use natural barriers like mountains, dense trees and such.
Someone mentioned "speed matching" which brings up another scenario I am working through with both DC and DCC.
I like to run 2 UP or Rio Grande diesels with 10 RG, UP, and BNSF coal cars. The real ones are usually 3 front, 4 in the middle back to back, and 2 reversed at the rear, with 100 cars between. (empty 2 front, loaded 3 front) I just run one leading, another rear. Never mind turning the rear one around for now, this is a speed, not a proto, concern.
I put just the locos on the track 1/2 lap from each other and run full throttle. Fairly well matched, but after about 20 or 30 laps, one catches up to the other. In my mind, I'm thinking there is no way to match them precisely in a consist.
If I put the faster one up front, it's dragging the rear one and couplers are tight. Put the slow one front, and the rear is pushing, and all the couplers are slack. The latter actually caused one car to uncouple on a curve and derail. Even the more precise Kadee has more slop than a real coupler, right?
In a real consist, the engineer has control of all the locos with rpm and load sensors so all engines are balanced. Hit a steep grade and maybe the rear unit increases as needed. I don't know hoot about real trains, I'm speaking theory and with some reading. Please don't go off on a tangeant on this, like to stick to the main issue.
Ok, with DC I'm just stuck with a little speed difference. I usually just put the faster one up front, causes no damage to the rear, the front unit may be a bit noisier with the load and run a little warmer, but at least the couplers are tight. Easy, hook up and run them, forget any slight mismatch.
The only way I can see doing better with DCC is to put the locos on the track and fiddle around matching the speeds (if I can adjust CVs) so they will run several laps and maintain exact interval at the same exact throttle setting. This requires having each loco on a separate address, then when consisted having them both on the same address. There is still no guarantee of precise matching in the final consist under all load conditions. Is this really worth the effort?
Bob
Bob,
You will never be able to match them so close that you can just "let them run". Everyone I know who does the pusher thing with DCC has two engineers on the train, each watching his coupler slack and ajusting his loco as needed.
With DC I only do multiple units at the front, as long as they are close in speed, no problem.
I know about the prototype situation you are refering to, but I don't know anyone modeling it.
Sheldon.
By prototype I was referring to having the rear engine reversed. I model this because it is the way coal trains run here.
I have a 10' test track here in my shop, DC powered. I placed 2 Bachmann GE 70 DCC Equipped on the track, both heading the same direction about 3' apart. Turn the knob they both move forward. Flip the switch they both move reverse.
I turned one loco around, so that the two were tail to tail and turned the knob. The one pointing forward went forward, and the reversed one followed right along in the same direction, as it should. I just wanted to reassure those with questions about the compatibility issue of Bachmann DCC locos on a DC track.
However, if I hook the EZ Command to the track, then I have to reprogram the loco, since forward is forward regardless of orientation.
So with DCC equipped locos running DC, I still have prototypical coal trains by doing absolutely nothing.
I don't want to beat this issue to death. At this point I have no further input to offer or questions to ask, just need to get some more good books and study.
I greatly appreciate everyone keeping their posts friendly with factual comments. I don't see this as a contest to prove who is right and who is wrong, and this thread proves that something can be debated peacefully.
For now, I'm calling it a "draw", leaving it up to personal needs and preferences.
This issue pops up frequently as new people are drawn into the hobby. I would suggest that when it does, simply have them do a search for "DC or DCC?" Meanwhile feel free to add new information to update the thread.
Thank you
Bob
Bob,
To be just a little more specific, I would be affraid of derailments with cars between the two locos, DCC or DC. I have never seen that successfully done on a consistant basis.
Making the cars heavier would make in more reliable, but would reduce pulling capacity.
On one of the layouts in our local group, we do a train similar to what you discribe, with a loco on each end, facing in oposite directions, but it is only a switching run and it is DCC, two engineers each running their loco work together to run the train on two seperate addresses.
When we have done simple "pusher" operations on other layouts, that too is done with seperate engineers on each "set" of locos, and it can be tricky.
These are operational challenges that even DCC does not completely solve. I will admit that if your goal is to play engineer with your buddy and pretend you are the two engineers taking the coal grag over the mountain, you can learn to do it with DCC, but it is niether easy or automatic and defenately not designed for unattended display running.
I personally skip this prototype practice on my railroad as we are mostly in the fast freight business. Shorter faster trains with lots of power on the head end - much more model friendly, DCC or DC.
To simulate such operations for constant display running, some modelers in the past have used dummy locos simply pulled by the train to simulate the mid train or rear end helpers.
Sheldon
Good idea Sheldon, for simplicity "dummy locos simply pulled by the train to simulate the mid train or rear end helpers".
How often does one find two different locomotives that run at the same speed on one DC controller? Just asking for my own basic knowledge?
hgcHO,
Actually, many of todays newer locos run at similar speeds on DC. I'll give a few examples from my own railroad. I have no problem double heading the following:
Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2 with Proto 2-8-8-2
Athearn 2-8-2 with Bachmann spectrum 2-8-0
For me, since I model the early 50's, most diesels where still matched sets like EMD F3's ABBA or Alco FA1's ABBA, etc or 3 matching EMD GP7's, so as long as they are the same brand, they run together fine.
A small speed difference in not a problem, just so one loco is not truly dragging or pushing the other.
Sheldon
I only had one car derail using the consist as described, turned out to be a defective knuckle spring and vertical slop. Other than that, I run the setup both directions, often full throttle with no problems. Keep in mind I'm only running 10 coal cars. I did, however try it with 20 assorted cars for long periods with no derails.
The couplers have to be adjusted precisely with no vertical slop, to prevent what I call "camming" decoupling, where one knuckle tries to ride up over the other. This can happen in both pull and push situations. I think this is one item that is often overlooked by modelers when checking with the height gauge. It takes some judicious shimming, but I do not allow my couplers to "hang". You can actually see the camming action on a test track by pushing or pulling 2 coupled cars.
I also make sure the coal cars are properly and uniformly weighted, usually a bit more than the usual, using a digital scale.
Others may disagree with my picky methods, but it works for me. The key is turning "consist" into "consistency", which does require some fine tuning.
All my locos are Bachmann, and they seem very well matched. At slow speeds, I have tried to observe coupler action. Actually my wife does it while I vary speed as her eyes are better than mine. Sometimes the couplers are compressed or extended, and sometimes seem to just "float" along.
I think I owe the success of operation to Bachmann locos, near perfect trackwork, proper weighting and precisely adjusted Kadee couplers. All my cars have been converted to Kadee. I believe it was Sheldon a year ago who convinced me to make the switch. Thanks Sheldon.
Bob
Would decoders having BEMF make this type of consisting easier or more difficult? Would one regular decoder and one BEMF work? Would having both engines using BEMF be the trick?
I'm almost thinking that the fact they both can adjust their speeds a bit that 2 units with BEMF might work.
I could see where a regular decoder up front and a BEMF decoder as a pusher could cause trouble. If the lead loco slowed the BEMF unit would think it should "power up". But what if the lead unit is BEMF and the pusher is regular decoder?
Would using a shelf type coupler help?
http://kadee.com/htmbord/page119.htm (http://kadee.com/htmbord/page119.htm)
Sid
Sid
I have considered the 119, and may order a few in to try out, however I'm having good success with the #5 so far. (#148 )
Since I only have the EZ Command I can only program the rear unit for direction. I ran several tests and don't see any difference between DC and DCC for the type of consist I am using.
Before I started railroading, I visited a LHS for information and was told that everyone was going to DCC. However, I noticed that most of his inventory was DC. Questioning his credibility I decided I needed further research.
My concern is that new modelers seem to be jumping into waters way over their head, leading to frustration and dropping out of the hobby.
Bob
Perhaps my experience can help with your decision.
I got back into MRR after a 45 year break. I was a train nut as a lad but then in my teens other interests took over. I understood DC as I had block control on the little layout I built when I was 12.
When I got back into the hobby, I wasn't entirely sure I wanted to invest a lot so I just went with DC as I was familiar with it and from reading some forum discussions on DCC it seemed very complicated what with talk of hexidecimals, etc. Besides I wanted to use my Penn Line Consolidation that I had taken out of retirement. In fact it does work but it isn't very smooth or well detailed compared to modern locos.
I built a small 4x8 layout with block control and it was fine until I discovered sound and found that I couldn't adjust it or control it well with DC.
I then went to a combination set up with DCC as Cab B. That worked fine but I was not happy with the performance of my Atlas TruTrack and found that in DCC any problems were maginfied.
I then decided to go all DCC with new track( Kato Unitrack) and a new layout
as I was using the DCC far more than the DC.
I found that in fact DCC is better on a small layout as you can stop several engines on one siding. Also the wiring is far simpler as there are no blocks and only a couple feeder wires are needed. I did as Gene mentioned and have my small service yard isolated from the rest of the layout with a simple on/off switch as even 3 or 4 sound engines all starting up can be annoying.
I usually only run one engine at a time and I like the idea of controlling the engine and not the track.
I agree that if I had a large fleet of DC locos I doubt that would want to convert a large number of locos. Also the control with the MRC power pack I had was nice. I'm using a MRC Prodigy Express and have found it very easy to use and programme CV's.
I hope that helps in some way.
Some folks mentioned "simplified wiring" as a plus for DCC. After helping a neighbor with a 12x20 basement layout, I'm here to tell ya' even with DCC put electrical blocks in your trackwork. Just leave them on all the time.
Trying to find in all that track, without being able to isolate sections, where a dropped foam pin landed after taking a bounce is a major pain. Finally found INSIDE the factory building across the spur that goes into the building where the overhead crane is.
Len
Len
That's probably the best advice for any railroader, even on a small layout. I only have a 4 X 8 now, but besides the obvious blocks for staging, the main is also divided into 2 sections.
Thanks to all for your input.
Bob