I would like to know the difference, if any between the metal and plastic wheels on the trucks. When I purchased my Bachmann train sets almost a year ago, they came with plastic wheeled trucks. Since my initial purchase (the sets), I have purchased several cars, they all came with metal wheels. Is one type of wheel better than the other, I don't know. If anyone has a comment pertaining to this subject feel free to post. Thanks in advance to all who have good ideas/comments. By the way I love my Bachmann trains, I am slowly landscaping my layout and have to run the trains every now and then to just to watch em roll.
O.K. metal wheels seem to be the choice to go with, that being said; should I replace the entire truck? So I'm considering replacing the truck and wheels, I don't understand what rp25 is, someone please enlighten me, thanks. I have six rolling stock to change out from plastic to metal, where should I go to find a good truck set with metal wheels?
I just looked at wheel sets, and just a bit of confusion set in. How do I know if I have 36" or 33" wheels? The more I learn the more I need to know, ha! Having fun doing this, so I'll keep plugging away.
Thanks to the friends that have responded to my initial question, you guys have been very helpful.
Metal wheels are better than plastic, plastic generally only comes in train sets and the economy line. Bachmann has metal wheels available for all their rolling stock. Metal wheels generally help cars track better due to the added weight in addition to being more free rolling usually. Many clubs have a policy that prohibits the use of plastic wheels.
I have never met anyone that found any benefits to using plastic wheels besides being a bit cheaper.
ACY; The scrap pile, but you have to "square off" the axle ends. Wheels ground flat and glued face to face can have some uses, like as sheaves, etc.
Do yourself a favour; Ed; At least do some research on the "Kadee" website.
Rich C.
my experiences are that the wheel contour is more important than whether the wheels are plastic or metal. most if not all newer cars have wheels that conform to nmra specs (rp25) but older wheelsets, especially on the cheaper train set cars, may not. there are non rp25 metal wheels out there, some ahm cars from the early 1970s have them for example. non rp25 wheels will usually have larger "pizza cutter" flanges with a sharp edge, whereas the rp25 wheels will have smaller flanges with a rounded edge.
my recommendation would be to invest the money to replace any of the "pizza cutters" you may have asap. if you have plastic rp25 wheels around they make a good replacement, but if you have to buy new then buy metal. about the only real advantage I have observed of metal over plastic is that metal wheels tend to run cleaner and spread less dirt on the track. acy mentioned the added weight of the metal wheels but I have found it to be negligible, and whatever weight is needed in a car can usually be easily added elsewhere such as inside the carbody, or glues to the underside of the car.
one thing I do avoid is having any wheelset with plastic axles. it is easy to bend the axles when inserting them into the trucks, and once that is done the wheels no longer run true. metal axles avoid this problem. most metal wheelsets also have metal axles, but some like kadee do not.
Machined metal wheels generally are best.
Kadee are sintered metal wheels and capable of picking up dirt like plastic. Sintered metal is fine metal particles compressed under a lot of pressure to form a wheel.
Generally, if you are a rivet counter, the machined metal have a shiny thread somewhat similar to prototype wheels.
Also, the machined metal are a little heavier.
Downside of metal wheels can be shorts at turnouts as has been experienced by some. That is usually taken care of by fine tuning the turnouts.
Rich
A number of folks here have also noted that plastic wheels can sometimes accumulate a small static electricity charge while rolling. This charge can attract dirt and dust, eventually building up on the wheel tread to the point where it will derail.
TMEd, I have found that Proto 2000 metal wheelsets with delrin axles to be a perfect drop in fit for Bachmann plastic trucks (non talgo style). If you are careful and not clumsy in the process of placing the wheel set in the truck it is very diffucult to bend the axle out of true. You can buy them in styles that are ribbed for older cars or smooth back for new and in 33" or 36" if you are into that kind of thing. How you would tell which size would be based on the year the car was built and it carrying capacity. A GOOGLE search will help you with that. That said, most older cars take 33" wheelsets. I dislike wheel sets that are all plastic, even if they are RP25.
I am a believer that plastic wheelsets add crud to the track. Not so convinced that the black from Kadees does, eventually the black wears off, leaving silver/gray metal.
Despite the above, I will say the best and most expensive but freest rolling wheel sets I have bought are Intermountain. They also have metal axles, in case you feel like you are the clumsy type.
A Truck Tuner can also help to get any wheelsets you have trouble getting rolling, to roll better as long as it is not a matter of the wheel set axles being too long for the truck.
my experience has been that the Bachmann metal wheelsets are a drop in replacement for the current style of cars found in the train sets (the ones with body mounted knuckle couplers)..... I have done many such conversions on those cars, and that, along with adding a little weight and replacement of the couplers if they fail with metal ones, are all the mods that really need to be done to have an inexpensive, good running car.
Quote from: jward on June 22, 2015, 01:04:00 PM
my experience has been that the Bachmann metal wheelsets are a drop in replacement for the current style of cars found in the train sets...
Of course this make perfect sense. Not sure why this didn't make it into your first post. I guess you were saving that info for a later post. I recall you being a big fan of Internountains, at least at one time and mentioning them and Jaybee wheel sets, quite often. The Bachmann's, not so much, if ever.
Just a point of info, in my shopping, I have found the Bachmann wheelsets to be more expensive than the Proto ones. I don't hold the old Bachmann train set stuff to be as nicely detailed as the Bachmann Silver Series cars, hence, I try to limit what I would spend to spruce 'em up.
Quote from: jward on November 12, 2011, 09:25:15 AM
i have used the metal wheelsets from bachmann, jaybee, nwsl, intermountain and proto2000. all are good wheels, and i really can't tell which cars have which.
...well, maybe some mention of Bachmann wheel sets. ;)
And while the weight of the metal wheel sets may be somewhat negligible, I tend to use all metal wheel sets on cars where I know I am going to find it tough adding weight elsewhere. Every little bit counts/helps.
Metal wheels only on the 200+ cars on my GER.
They roll better.
They are made to higher standards.
They add a little weight.
They don't pick up as much crud.
Nothing goes onto the railway unless it has metal wheels. They are, simply put, the best wheels and beat plastic hands down.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: jward on June 22, 2015, 01:04:00 PM
my experience has been that the Bachmann metal wheelsets are a drop in replacement for the current style of cars found in the train sets...
While I have agreed this makes all the sense, it has not been
The Austrian's experience...
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,30174.msg222405.html#msg222405
Quote from: jbrock27 on June 22, 2015, 01:46:56 PM
I recall you being a big fan of Internountains, at least at one time and mentioning them and Jaybee wheel sets, quite often. The Bachmann's, not so much, if ever.
Just a point of info, in my shopping, I have found the Bachmann wheelsets to be more expensive than the Proto ones. I don't hold the old Bachmann train set stuff to be as nicely detailed as the Bachmann Silver Series cars, hence, I try to limit what I would spend to spruce 'em up.
also don't forget the Cadillac of metal wheels, nwsl. those have to be the best on the market, but they are pricey.
as for the Bachmann silver series cars, most of them are just train set cars with added weight and metal wheels. I know places where I can buy the non silver series cars for 6 or 7 bucks, and invest a couple more bucks for metal wheels and weight, and have a nice running car for about half the price of the same car in silver series.
I have been an inspector too long , I grab a caliper and measure whenever I replace parts to make sure I order the correct replacement . I have a current copy of the Walther's Reference catalog if I looking for parts or I make sure that I check websites of suppliers for the dimensions of parts . Shipping Charges & running around to the few Hobby Shops gets to be expensive & time consuming to order the wrong parts . John2.
Quote from: jward on June 22, 2015, 04:16:59 PM
also don't forget the Cadillac of metal wheels, nwsl. those have to be the best on the market, but they are pricey.
I didn't but you can keep them for that reason ;).
Quote from: jward on June 22, 2015, 04:16:59 PM
as for the Bachmann silver series cars, most of them are just train set cars with added weight and metal wheels. I know places where I can buy the non silver series cars for 6 or 7 bucks, and invest a couple more bucks for metal wheels and weight, and have a nice running car for about half the price of the same car in silver series.
This must represent a sea change for you:
Quote from: jward on December 26, 2014, 07:31:49 PM
there are a few old train set cars, like the 60 foot boxcars tyco made, that I could see upgrading. but the days when everything had to be built are over, so there is no incentive for me to buy cars that need to be upgraded when I can get good running stuff that's ready to roll when I take it out of the box.
I recall your suggesting more often than not, validly, that to spend money to upgrade old cars was a foolish investment when you can buy the above and have it run well right out of the box, as you stated above. And for large part I would agree with you, unless you can get a decent looking car inexpensively or you purchased it a long time ago.
I also, know places where I can get a Silver Series car for just few more bucks that what you're finding the old Bachamann cars for. I would also point out that not all "old" Bachmann cars are created equal; just bc they came out before the Silver Series, doesn't mean they are all the same quality (see candy colored shiny cars with talgo trucks and horn hook couplers).
And even though the major differences are weight and wheel sets, I do think the detailing of the Silver Series is better, w/o being over the top.
Don't Bachmann wheelsets have a different shape axle end than intermountain, Kadee, or Proto wheelsets?
Are you really asking, why, for example, would a Proto wheel set, fit a Bachmann plastic truck?
Trainman;
Not in an essential way. There is a tool you might want to check out: It is a reaming tool, you can find it on "Micro-mark". You take out the wheel-set, insert the tool, and rotate it. I use a rubber pad about a foot long, and just run the whole along that once or twice-it is usually enough. I then check the bore for bits of swarf; then, after a puff of graphite powder, insert the new (or old-what-have-you) wheel-set, check for smoothness, and if all is well, you are set.
Rich C.
Quote from: jbrock27 on June 22, 2015, 12:44:11 PM
A Truck Tuner can also help to get any wheelsets you have trouble getting rolling, to roll better as long as it is not a matter of the wheel set axles being too long for the truck.
Must get me a truck tuner. I've three or four cars with wheels that squeak. Hotboxs in the making. :)
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: jbrock27 on June 22, 2015, 07:29:00 PM
Quote from: jward on June 22, 2015, 04:16:59 PM
as for the Bachmann silver series cars, most of them are just train set cars with added weight and metal wheels. I know places where I can buy the non silver series cars for 6 or 7 bucks, and invest a couple more bucks for metal wheels and weight, and have a nice running car for about half the price of the same car in silver series.
This must represent a sea change for you:
Quote from: jward on December 26, 2014, 07:31:49 PM
there are a few old train set cars, like the 60 foot boxcars tyco made, that I could see upgrading. but the days when everything had to be built are over, so there is no incentive for me to buy cars that need to be upgraded when I can get good running stuff that's ready to roll when I take it out of the box.
I recall your suggesting more often than not, validly, that to spend money to upgrade old cars was a foolish investment when you can buy the above and have it run well right out of the box, as you stated above. And for large part I would agree with you, unless you can get a decent looking car inexpensively or you purchased it a long time ago.
I also, know places where I can get a Silver Series car for just few more bucks that what you're finding the old Bachamann cars for. I would also point out that not all "old" Bachmann cars are created equal; just bc they came out before the Silver Series, doesn't mean they are all the same quality (see candy colored shiny cars with talgo trucks and horn hook couplers).
And even though the major differences are weight and wheel sets, I do think the detailing of the Silver Series is better, w/o being over the top.
there is no sea change for me here. once again you are misinterpreting what was said. the cars I refer to upgrading are not the old cars with horn hooks couplers mounted on the trucks. those are still not worth my time and effort to upgrade. no, the sea change came when Bachmann retooled those cars for body mounted knuckle couplers and rp25 wheels. once they did that the hard work was done, and it is now simple and inexpensive to bring them up to silver series standards.
I don't think I misinterpreted what you said, bc above, is exactly what you had said. What was misinterpreted was what you meant and I thank you for clarifying you mean those kind of "old" Bachmann cars.
You must also replace the couplers on those too, no?
on the newer cars I run the plastic knuckle couplers until they give me problems, then I replace with metal (usually kadee 5 or 148) as long as the couplers are working well I leave them alone.
btw, my preference for metal wheels on my cars stems more from the sound them make rolling down the track than anything else.
How long before the plastic springs on the older version of the EZ Mates gives out? Have any issues getting Kadees to fit in those stock coupler boxes?
I agree, the sound is very cool ;)
The original EZ-Mate plastic springs seem to fail depending on the phase of the moon. I've had some fail in a couple of months, others took years. I got tired of trains seperating in the middle a while back, and went completely to metal spring couplers.
My preference on metal wheels is Intermountain for most things. In part, because they sell 'bulk' boxes of 100 wheelsets. For a few cars with odd ball axle ends or lengths, I get them from Reboxx.
For a lot of cars that come with thin plastic couplers, the box cover has 'lips' so it sets down into the box. To use Kadee's, or other couplers with thicker shanks, all you do is flip the coupler box cover over so it sits on top of the box insted of into it.
Len
Hey Jeff;
If you want to hear something really cool, take an Athearn streamline passenger car, change the wheels, couplers, etc., load about four or five ounces of weight in it and run it. It will pick up imperfections in your track-work, and sound hauntingly similar to the real McCoy. That "thump-thump" thud does sound good.
Rich C.
Thank you Len for underscoring my point and for the add'l info.
Sarge, not certain you are addressing me, bc you called me Jeff but I think you are bc of how you used the word "cool":
-Don't have any passenger cars or service on the layout; too small for them;
-Happily, don't have any imperfections yet in our trackwork.
I do agree with all who like the sounds of metal wheels on the track :)
Quote from: rogertra on June 22, 2015, 09:41:08 PM
Must get me a truck tuner.
Roger T.
Roger, I have the Micro Mark version and I was curious today to compare it to the one Reboxx sells, so I did some snooping online. One guy on the MRR Forum made the statement the Reboxx one was longer and the Micro Mark version was too short to fit in Accurail and Athearn trucks. Someone else on the MRH Forum said just the opposite, that the Micro Mark one was longer. ??? ::) Finally, someone on that Forum measured the 2 and reported the Micro Mark one was longer.
You know, Jim;
It works-and if used properly (not like me), it will give great results. I turned out a "double-ended burnisher" on my trusty Southbend. This works well, as it fits snugly into both axle sockets. Makes 'em nice and smoooooooooooooth.
Rich C.
PS: Jim; I was basically talking to Jeff. No offense, really.
I know it does Sarge, it's why I bought one ::)
None taken, but c'mon, I know you were talkin to me, you've gotten me mixed up with someone else before... ;)
Quote from: jbrock27 on June 23, 2015, 07:42:29 PM
Quote from: rogertra on June 22, 2015, 09:41:08 PM
Must get me a truck tuner.
Roger T.
Roger, I have the Micro Mark version and I was curious today to compare it to the one Reboxx sells, so I did some snooping online. One guy on the MRR Forum made the statement the Reboxx one was longer and the Micro Mark version was too short to fit in Accurail and Athearn trucks. Someone else on the MRH Forum said just the opposite, that the Micro Mark one was longer. ??? ::) Finally, someone on that Forum measured the 2 and reported the Micro Mark one was longer.
Thanks for the update, I guess it's gonna be Micro-Mark.
Cheers
Roger T.
Actual measurements:
Micro-Mark Truck Turner: 25.86 mm
Current Reboxx Exxact Tool: 23.51 mm
The Micro-Mark truck tuner is based on the original Reboxx tool, both of which conform to the NMRA axle length RP.
According to Reboxx, "The current design of Exxact Tool was made a little shorter to make it easier to insert them into the side-frame and remove them from the same. The trick in usung them is to make sure that when you squeeze the side-frames together, you align the side-frame which is being cut so that it is perpendicular to the axis of the cutting tool. A little more pressure needs to be applied than was necessary with previous longer tool."
So there are in fact two different length Reboxx tools floating around. The original, longer, version, and the currently available shorter version.
Len
Yep, those numbers match those posted on the MRH Forum.
Anywhere the original Reboxx is available?
len, I don't have any passenger cars, they'd take out my tunnel portals if I tried to run them. but I do have several of the metal train cars made by model power a few years back. those are probably 5-6-ounces each and they give the same effect you describe. wonder how one would sound if I filed a flat spot on one of the wheels?
Quote from: jbrock27 on June 24, 2015, 06:11:39 AM
Anywhere the original Reboxx is available?
e-Bay??? Although the few I've seen on line appear to be hobby shop's selling the current version.
It's not really the kind of thing that wears out, so I doubt there's much of a resale market. It'd probably be simpler to just get the one from Micro-Mark.
And for those who aren't sure, these are intended for use in
plastic trucks.
Do NOT use on metal trucks, or you'll be replacing it fairly quick. I learned the hard way.
Len
Quote from: jward on June 24, 2015, 08:29:24 AM
len, I don't have any passenger cars, they'd take out my tunnel portals if I tried to run them. but I do have several of the metal train cars made by model power a few years back. those are probably 5-6-ounces each and they give the same effect you describe. wonder how one would sound if I filed a flat spot on one of the wheels?
Jeff, it was not
Len who brought up passenger cars, it was
RichC, who confirmed, he in turn was addressing you about them, even thought that was not entirely clear...
Len, any way to tell the difference between the old and new versions by photo alone? Any other way?
As I stated
at least 2 times previous, I have the Micro Mark one; was just curious about how the Reboxx one compared, which is why I had found what I found on the Net and reported it back here, after seeing
Roger express an interest in getting one.
Good reminder
Len, it never hurts to point that out. Luckily, I had read that before I bought the one I have, the one from Micro Mark.
Unless the photos are to the exact same scale, I doubt if theirs a way to tell the difference just by looking at a picture. The Micro-Mark is the same size as the original Reboxx, so I just go with that.
Len
Quote from: Len on June 24, 2015, 01:19:51 PM
The Micro-Mark is the same size as the original Reboxx, so I just go with that.
Len
Is it though?? That was my whole point to bringing this up, the dude who posted on the MRR Forum said the Reboxx was
longer. Had to have been the original he was referring to as the numbers you produced show the updated Reboxx to be shorter than the Mirco Mark.
jbrock,
I have all 3 tools. I got the Reboxx when it first came out, but dulled it good on a metal truck. Micro-Mark came out with theirs a bit later, and it was a bit cheaper, so I got one to replace my dulled Reboxx. It was the exact same length as the Reboxx, but the "grip tire" to spin it with had a slightly different feel.
Then the "new improved" Reboxx came out, and I got one only to discover that the "improvement" was to shorten it slightly. Meaning more pressure had to be applied to the truck sides to get it to work properly. I didn't like that improvement, so I've stuck with the Micro-Mark tuner ever since.
So my experience is, Micro-Mark turner length = original Reboxx tuner length. The current Reboxx turner is slightly shorter than both the Micro-Mark and original Rebox. Which may make it easier to insert in the truck, but it creates more work to use and can mess up the journal if it's not kept exactly square to the side being reamed.
Part of me wonders if the person on the MRR forum got his tuners mixed up when he was doing the measuring.
Len
Quote from: Len on June 24, 2015, 11:31:12 PM
The current Reboxx turner is slightly shorter than both the Micro-Mark and original Rebox. Which may make it easier to insert in the truck, but it creates more work to use and can mess up the journal if it's not kept exactly square to the side being reamed.
Agree with your point. Better to have the Micro Mark one.
Quote from: Len on June 24, 2015, 11:31:12 PM
Part of me wonders if the person on the MRR forum got his tuners mixed up when he was doing the measuring.
Perhaps, or maybe I got things inverted ::). If so, mea culpa. I am going to have to look for the post again.
Yep, my mistake and apologies for any confusion. I inverted what was said, he had said the Reboxx was shorter than the Micro Mark. That's why I thought it strange to find the numbers on the MRH site did not support that.
Len, thank you for helping me to see the light and for the added info. :D