David,
this list is in desperate need of updating, I haven't touched it in several years, but it should get you started:

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/MLS-kitbashing-guide.html

The Bachmann locos that are *not* 1/20.3 scale are mostly 1/22.5.
And most LGB is 1/22.5 scale, although many LGB locos are selectively compressed in some dimensions.

I really need to update that chart!
maybe I will make a project of it for this winter..

Scot

Quote from: Chastity on October 14, 2013, 09:18:50 PM
The Sharks are nice but really niche.  USA Trains did not do well on the PA/PBs and those were much better known units.

The whole community in 1:29 lost E8s, Dash-9s, Gp-40s, SD-45s, RS-3s, U25bs, Pacifics, Mikados and a 2-8-8-2 Mallet with the demise of Aristocraft.

Who says USA didnt "do well" on the PA's?
many of the PA road names have been completely sold out for years..

and we haven't lost those Aristo models forever..
Scott Polk has already announced on the Aristo forum that the molds are still going to be used..
we dont know by who yet..but they will all be back..

Scot

Jerry,
you could be right..but I doubt it.
It's also quite possible that if Aristo had chosen the correct 1/32 scale back in 1988, that their fledgling line would have quickly failed and died,
because the entire garden railroading hobby at that time had LGB, and no one would have wanted to buy new 1/32 scale cars
that were so small and out of place with their LGB cars..

It's possible that 1/29, and the fact that it is visually compatible with LGB, led directly to the *growth* of the hobby overall!
I own no LGB, 70% of my trains are Aristo and USA 1/29 scale, and 30% Bachmann..(just because I love the looks of the Spectrum Mogul and 2-8-0! they are gorgeous models that I had to have..but I dont consider myself an Fn3 scale modeler..only a 1/29 scale modeler.)

I personally highly doubt that 1/29 itself had anything to do with Aristo's eventual failure..
If anything, 1/29 led directly to its 25 years of great success in the hobby.
The economy is clearly the primary factor in Aristo's going out of business..
IMO, 1/29 scale has absolutely nothing to do with it at all..I think the past 25 years of growth in 1/29 scale prove that.

It's pretty clear that 1/29 scale has been very successful over the past 25 years, and im sure it will continue to be successful..
So much so that the Large Scale hobby has pretty much settled on only two scales, 1/29 for Standard Gauge,
and Fn3 for narrow gauge..sure, there are still other niche scales like 1/24 and 7/8n2 but none that are strongly commercially viable.
even the traditionally "1/32 scale only" manufacturers, like Accucraft, have begun to offer 1/29 scale products.
And even Bachmann is now offering 1/29 scale!
1/29 will live on..

Now if we could only get MTH to switch over to 1/29, all would be great!
MTH has some great products..I love their Baldwin VO1000, and they have the only good looking F-unit in the hobby.
But I wont buy them *because* they are 1/32 scale..they dont go with my 1/29 scale trains.
and im not going to model 1/32 *and* 1/29..I made my choice 10 years ago..1/29 wins.

Scot

Im curious about Lewis' statement:
"Lionel's standard gauge was1:29 and did not run on Gauge1 track, so it too was out of scale for the track size."

Im not convinced that is true..the 1/29 scale part.
Lionel "standard gauge" trains ran on 2 and 1/8 inch gauge track,
then other manufacturers made trains to match, calling them "wide gauge"

Article about these trains:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/model-trains/standard-gauge

The size of the trains themselves did not necessarily match the gauge of the track..
2.125" gauge track would scale to 1/26.6 scale, (or rounded up: 1/27) assuming US standard gauge.
but i dont think the trains themselves necessarily matched the track gauge..
Exact scale modeling was not a priority for tinplate trains..

I can find zero on-line references (apart from the quote from Lewis) where Lionel
standard gauge trains were ever referred to as 1/29 scale..
I dont think they were ever given a specific scale at all..they were simply called "Lionel Standard Gauge" trains..
(or "wide gauge trains" if made by other manufacturers..)

(note: the term "Standard Gauge" in relation to "Lionel Standard Gauge" has NO relation to "Standard Gauge" meaning
4 foot 8.5 inches! They are two completely unrelated and different uses of the term "standard gauge")

So, I suspect that Lewis actually meant "Lionel's standard gauge was *close to* 1:29"..
And he was using that close relationship as another justification for creating his 1/29 scale line in 1988..

I have never seen any reference to 1/29 scale existing before 1988..
and I have never seen any reference to Lionel Standard Gauge being called 1/29 scale..
has anyone?

Here is a thread where the Lionel guys themselves are discussing it:

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/205331.aspx

There is no clear consensus, even among people well-versed in Lionel..
It seems there is no specific scale to "Lionel Standard Gauge"..
Its essentially scale-less..
Its in a range roughly between 1/26 and 1/32, depending on the particular locomotives and cars in question.

So..getting back to 1/29 scale.
I still say that 1/29 scale itself, as a specific scale, did not exist before 1988, and it was invented by Aristocraft.

If anyone can dispute that, I would be interested to hear about it!

Scot

Quote from: armorsmith on October 13, 2013, 12:53:53 AM
@Scot - 1/29 has been around far longer than that.  It was related to me (I wish I could remember by whom) that Aristo Craft chose that scale to be the same size as the pre-war 'standard gauge' tin plate trains. Also, if I remember the gauge of the standard gauge trains was like 2-1/8 or some such.

Thats part of the legend, but not the most important part of it.
The more important aspect was matching already existing LGB trains..

Aristocraft created 1/29 scale around 1988 to match already existing LGB trains in the USA.
They wanted to make an American Standard Gauge line of models, but the correct 1/32 scale would have resulted in models noticeably smaller than LGB rolling stock..So to match LGB in physical size, they made them larger, and 1/29 scale was born..

This way, people who already had a lot of LGB rolling stock (which was basically *everyone* before 1988, since LGB was pretty much all there was) could buy the new 1/29 scale trains and run them with their existing LGB trains, and have everything visually match..
The invention of 1/29 scale was a business decision, and a good one!

From the horse mouth, Lewis Polk in 2007:

Quote"Dear All,
It's very simple. My father was a Lionel fanatic and
lived in Irvington, NJ, where Lionel's factory was.
He was a major distributor of their product and
loved Standard Gauge. Lionel's standard gauge
was1:29 and did not run on Gauge1 track,so it too
was out of scale for the track size.

My father, Nat, had sold LGB for many years too
and knew it was out of scale for U.S. sizes being
sized to meter gauge, not 3'. Therefore, like OO in
England he concluded that the track size was not
the most important thing in Large Scale and re-
quested 1/29. We made models in 1/32, 1/24 and
1/29, which was the one with the WOW! factor just
as Lionel's Standard Gauge was in it's time.
The fact that there was millions of miles of Gauge
1 track laid already meant that we needed to make
our trains run on Gauge1 tracks in order to become
commercially viable in Large Scale.The common factor
in Large Scale today is the we all run on Gauge 1
track in spite of many scale philosophies.

When we started there was only LGB and Kalama-
zoo and neither were in 1/32 scale or 1/20.3. We
made a commercial decision based on the WOW of
outdoor train size that had side benefits. It was3x's
HO, it matched LGB more or less and they had 99%
of the market at the time. It also matched Lionel's
Standard Gauge, so with a change of trucks [our
products] could run with Lionel Standard Gauge
layouts.
That's it in a nutshell. 13 years later it's still working.
All the best,
Lewis Polk"

source: http://www.rcgrs.com/Jun07nl.pdf

I have never heard of anyone putting new trucks on modern Aristocraft or USA trains 1/29 scale trains to match older Lionel trains..
although it has probably happened..
but the main focus was clearly matching LGB 1/22.5 scale trains..

Scot

And there is nothing wrong with creating new scales..it still happens occasionally.
1/29 scale has only existed for 25 years..(Aristocraft Alco FA, 1988)

I created a new scale, it's called 29n2 scale:



The Alco PA is 1/29 scale.
the Forney is 29n2 scale.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/29n2/29n2-page1.html

I created 29n2 scale because I wanted to model Maine 2-footers alongside 1/29 scale Standard Gauge trains..
as far as I know, I am still the only person who models in 29n2 scale..
and even if i'm the only one ever, that's ok with me.  
Scot

Quote from: mudhen on September 29, 2013, 10:56:01 AM

Scales I know in G scale are , 1:24 , 1:29 , both in standard and narrow gauge and 1:32 standard gauge.

Incorrect..
technically there is only one "G scale", and it is 1/22.5 scale, which represents meter gauge on 45mm track.
1/29 and 1/24 are not "G scale"..

the problem is, the terms "G scale" and "G gauge" are used as generic terms to mean "anything that runs on 45mm track"..
The better term for "anything that runs on 45mm track" is "Large Scale", not G scale..

So, if you believe there is only the one G scale, then "Gn3" makes perfect sense..it would be 3-foot gauge in 1/22.5 scale.
but! another problem, because I suspect the people who actually use the term "Gn3" are probably referring to meter gauge,
not literal 3-foot gauge..if that is the case, they should technically call it Gn39.3701 scale..but no one is going to do that!
but yeah, overall the various scale designations in "Large Scale" are a bit of a mess..always have been.

I have never had any complaints, corrections or even debate over the terms used on this chart:



link to full size: http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/garyArmitstead/Large-scale-scales2.gif

So I think its pretty well accepted, overall, that G-scale should properly only refer to 1/22.5 scale.
which is mostly produced by LGB.
Scot

Bachmann does make an HO scale RS3 however..
So Davies either placed his post in the wrong (Bachmann) forum, and he does have an HO scale Bachmann RS3.
Or he has an Aristocraft Large Scale RS3.

If its the Aristocraft RS3, you wont get new handrails from the manufacturer..
Aristocraft is going out of business right now.

Scot

Blob,
your two locomotives are actually a fine match..and they are roughly the same scale..
IMO, dont even worry about it!
they will go together fine..
your models are different sizes, because in real life locomotives came in many different sizes..
even locomotives on the same railroad, at the same time..

Here is Kevins excellent comparison photo:



Those three locomotives are the same scale!
If they were real locomotives, and not models, they would have the same proportion to each other
as the models do..happens all the time..locomotives are a very varied bunch..
So, IMO its all really a non-issue in this case..and IMO, there is no quandary at all..

Scot

Glad to help!
actually, I didnt figure out the lettering in the photo..
all I could make out what was people had already said, possum (something) and oil (something)..
couldnt make it out clearly from the photo..

I dont remember which search combination ended up finally doing the job,
but I searched on several variations of the words possum, oil, railroad, shay, bachmann and On30.
eventually I hit on something, and it all fell into place..
just takes a bit of trial and error!

The links say that Bruce does model in Large Scale (Fn3) but IMO its pretty clear
the original photo is of an On30 shay..the couplers give it away.

(edit/update)

actually..I just went back through my browser history to find it!
Here are a bunch of google searches I tried, that didn't work!

possum and oil railroad On30
possum and oil railroad HO shay
"possum grove" railroad HO shay
"possum grove" railroad
possum railroad "oil vaccum"
possum railroad shay

After each one of those, I poked around a bit on the results..but didnt find our guy, or the shay...Nothing was working..I thought "if this guy has a photo on-line, the name of his railroad must be out there!"..what else to try..another combination of terms,
this time! a hit! found it!

here is the final combination of google search terms that solved it:

possum "& oil" railroad shay

(copy and paste that line into google to see what it found)
It was the "& oil" that did it..because with the quotes, google treats it as one term..
so thats really four search terms:

(possum) (& oil) (railroad) (shay)

Those four things together is what finally clinched it..with the "& oil" being the most important.

Scot

Found it! took some tricky searching, but in the end Google knows all..
Its the "Possum Grape & Oil Trough" by Bruce Stockbridge:

http://www.largescaleonline.com/cgi-bin/whoswho/show.cgi?id=brucstoc

Contact info for Bruce on the club listing:
http://www.largescaleonline.com/cgi-bin/clubs/show.cgi?id=cagrs

and here:
https://www.facebook.com/CentralArkansasGardenRailwaySociety

Scot

Quote from: NarrowMinded on January 09, 2013, 10:53:47 PM
Hi Scottycaos,

You make some good points, But as you point out there are more then one scale in the "G" catagory, I think this is what muddies the water for those that are new to large scale or only dabble in it for Christmas or are buying a gift.

I have recieved more then a few gifts that were not in my preffered scale because the buyer walked into the trains store and told them they are looking for "G" scale.

NM-Jeff

Yeah, that will always be a problem!  (family members and presents)
but technically there *isnt* more than one scale in the "G" category..there is only one "G scale"..the generic term for all the different scales lumped together should be "Large scale"..not "G scale"..

As hobbiests ourselves, we can easily understand that..if we walk into a train store, we know we want 1/29 scale, not Fn3 scale, but we cant expect non-hobbiests to ever understand those differences..to non-hobbiests, the term "G scale" will probably forever be the one and only term they will understand..

but that's not a failing of the terminology we are discussing..that's just normal ignorance by non hobbiests..
we cant expect to change that..

The HO scale guys (and all scales)  im sure have that problem too! and they only have one scale to choose from!
yet im sure many a well-meaning family member has walked into a train store to buy a present..they were asked "what scale does he model in?" they know the answer is "HO scale"..and they proceed buy a lovely Civil-War era passenger car for the guy who models nothing but the most modern diesels and trains!

Scot

In my experience, Fn3 scale *has* been generally adopted, and is used quite often..
I see it all the time..

The problem is, there have never been any *official* scale designations..people/groups have tried to create them, but they never seem to work..

but what is interesting, is that we have been without *official* scale designations for long now, that the hobby has pretty much "unofficially" adopted their own "official" designations itself! People have to call them *something*..and a few names have shaken out to be the most common ones used, which in a sense have made them the "unofficial official" scale designations/names for the hobby..IMO, these are the scale names that most people use, and IMO these are the unofficial official scale names..might as well use them! because its the best we have...and apparently the best we are ever going to have:

7/8n2 scale - 1/13.7 scale - 2-foot gauge on 45mm track.
Fn3 scale - 1/20.3 scale - 3 foot gauge on 45 mm track. (F-scale is 1/20.3 standard gauge on 70.64 mm track.)
G scale - 1/22.5 scale - meter gauge on 45mm track.
1/24 scale - generally represents, but is not exactly correct for 3-foot gauge on 45mm track.
1/29 scale - represents, but is not exactly correct for standard gauge on 45mm track.
1/32 scale - Standard gauge on 45mm track.

Those are the names I used on this chart from years ago:
http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/garyArmitstead/Large-scale-scales2.gif

yeah, its not ideal, and its not standardized..but its the best we have! it generally works, the names are descriptive enough, and its not really confusing at all once you figure it out.

By having a lack of official names, IMO those are now the official names, just because the hobby has pretty much standardized on those names over time..not *everyone* uses them obviously! and im sure some will still disagree..but I think you will find that the vast majority of Large Scale hobbyists are comfortable with those names..which makes them unofficially official.

And people have already adopted those names when creating new "niche" scales within the hobby.

F-scale modeling, standard gauge, exists:
http://www.ironcreekshops.com/whatisfscale.html

and I created 29n2 scale:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/29n2/
I named it 29n2 scale because it was the best name that made sense..
because "1/29 scale" was the best, and only, name for Standard gauge trains in 1/29 scale, I used 29n2 for 2-foot gauge in the same scale..so because I made it up, it is now official!

Which seems to be the only way we are ever going to get official scale designations in this hobby..
since it seems no one has the authority to create official names for us,
we, the hobby as a whole, have to simply adopt the names ourselves.
and the point of this post is, IMO we already have.

Scot

Quote from: Chris9017 on April 22, 2012, 04:17:03 AM
I would love to see a Willamette locomotive sometime down the road.  I know only 30 were made, and that they look a lot like shay engines.  The thing is Willamettes and Shays were completely different.  All Willamettes were super heated, even the 2-truckers, the shays were mostly not until the Pacific Coasts came out.  All Willamettes used Walscherts Valve gears.  Shays use Stevensons.  Only 1 Willamette was a coal burn, the rest of the 29 were all oil fired but Bachmann can still offer coal or oil fired models.     All Willamettes had their cylinders facing in the same direction and pointed outside, where as a shay only had 2 facing the same direction while the number 3 cylinder faced the opposite of the number 1 and 2 cylinders.   Also no Willamette locomotive had a cylinder enter inside of the cab where as shay had the number 3 cylinder in the cab.   

*completely* different? well, that's a stretch!
the differences you describe are very minor, and most people wouldn't even notice them..
(most people would look at a Willamette and say "that's a Shay"..unless you REALLY know the details, most people cant tell a Willamette from a Shay)
you say "completely different"..from a modeling perspective I would say "95% identical!"

Personally, I dont care for Wilamettes..because they basically just cloned the Shay after key Shay patents had expired..yes, with upgrades and some minor differences, but still..a Willimatte is basically a Shay.
yes, it was perfectly legal, but morally questionable IMO..the whole concept just bothers me..it feels like stealing to me.

Scot

Bachmann's 1/20.3 scale line is American 3-foot gauge (narrow gauge) prototypes..
considering there was never a 3-foot gauge Pacific, there isnt much sense in making a model of one!

there were some meter gauge and "cape gauge" (3 foot 6 inch gauge) Pacifics..
which are close to 3-foot gauge..
but I doubt those would be of interest to US narrow gauge modelers..

Scot