With the Spectrum locomotives (and for that matter, for BLI or others) equipped with sound, is there any synchronization of the chuff rate with the movement of the train? I was watching a friend's C&O Spectrum DCC equipped locomotive last night, and it was not synchronized. However, he was running it on DC (the layout isn't finished yet.) I was wondering if the synchronization might be tied in with the DCC. I guess I would have to say that I was surprised that such a nice looking and running loco was so "out of synch". Any info would be appreciated.- Mike S
Normally factory installed sound decoders have the chuff synchronized with the valve movement. When you install a sound decoder, you have to synchronize it yourself. The freeware software makes that a piece 'a cake.
Gene
That's what I thought, Gene. Since the locomotive I was watching was a new out-of-the-box Spectrum C&O DCC, I was surprised that it wasn't synchronized. Maybe the owner needs to contact repair?!- Mike S.
Are all of these soft synchronization or does anybody use hard synchronization in H0? By hard sync, I mean a sound cam or a reed switch and a magnet or something similar so that if the axles do not turn, there is no chuff, no matter how much voltage is applied. Soft sync implies that the cuffing starts at some motor voltage, and hopefully the locomotive starts at the same voltage. I am wondering what happens with soft sync when more load is applied - starting up hill, starting with a long train, etc. Do you reach a point where the chuff starts but the train is still sitting still? With DCC, I would think back emf speed stabilization would help. But what about dc?
Quote from: Jim Banner on March 23, 2007, 09:36:00 PM
.....I would think back emf speed stabilization would help. But what about dc?
The bemf works with DC too. The decoder's control circuitry is not bypassed when operated on DC, rather the decoders control signal is the analogue voltage rather than the digital signal.
Thanks, Nigel. That has got to make installing synchronized sound a lot easier to install, including in dc.
OK- For clarification for me... you're saying that all Bachmann factory sound equipped HO locomotives have synchronized sound... Correct? And, if you're saying that, is the synchronization controlled by back emf or by a physical trigger?- Mike S.
Hi Mike;
By the bemf, there is no "physical" trigger like a switch or magnetic sensor on Bachmann sound equipped locomotives.
Ok, Nigel. Are you saying that the Bachmann locos have BEMF? Also, if they do, does that mean they should be synchronized correctly. I hate to sound so ignorant here; but I really am just try to find out if the Spectrum I saw had a problem... or if all of them are just synchronized poorly. The chuffs were nowhere near coordinated with the piston/rod movement. Thanks for your thoughts.- Mike
Hi Guys
A point of clarification on sound sync.
The syncronization on a new sound equiped loco will be close but not exact
for the following reasons.
1: The decoder is tuned to a basic standard that represents the loco it is to
be used in, example 4-4-0. All 4-4-0's will not operate exactly the same, so
some will be well synced others will not.
2: The mechanism will free up as it gets more running time an a loco that was
in sync when new will slowiy get off sync.
Just as you have to change the loco number from 3 to the cab number, you
have to tune the chuff to the proper sync.
BEMF decoders are less prone to changing over time because tjhey monitor
the speed of the motor, and can compensate.
Other Non BEMF decoders monitor the voltage fed to the motor, and can't
compensate for motor speed changes.
All decoders sound or not have to be tuned or set up by the owner for
best performance.
The sync of the chuff is your responsibility.
Tim Anders
Souderton,Pa
Mike, being "synchronized" in this case means the cuffing starts when the wheels start turning and speeds up as the wheels turn faster. There is no implication that the chuff occurs at the correct part of the cycle, i.e. at the point where an exhaust port opens, nor even the implication that there are exactly four chuffs per wheel revolution (for two cylinder engines.) In fact, most model locomotives are set up for two chuffs per revolution, otherwise they "don't sound right."
Even when the chuffs are synchronized with a cam or switch they are usually set at two chuffs per revolution. It is a little unnerving when the locomotive is moving slow enough to observe the action while listening to the sound. It is like watching a locomotive that has the valves and cylinder on one side removed. Using this two per revolution gets even worse when you have a three or four cylinder locomotive. A Mallet, for example, really needs two sound systems to sound anywhere near right.
The chuff rate is not controlled by an electrical contact. It is controlled by throttle setting, but is adjustable.
To adjust the chuff rate, change the value of CV116 until it is four chuffs per driver revolution at the speed normally run for the locomotive.
This will affect the operation on analog DC somewhat (particularly slow speed control), as you will experience.
If you get everything all messed up, you can reset the decoder to factory values (including the address) by setting CV30 to 2. Then you can start all over again.
Remember to change only one setting at a time and then test, so that you know what does what; otherwise, you'll lose track of what settings have an effect on things.
Morris
FWIW, I have not yet seen ANY loco with factory sound that had the chuff rate synced anywhere close to the driver revolutions. Many seem to come close to 2 per rev, but not 4. All DCC locos have the chuff generated electronically, increasing as the voltage increases. They are not directly synced to the drivers. While you may not get the chuffs to "fire" exactly at each 90 degree point, if you get them close to 4 per rev you'll be fine. When you do try to set the sync, do it at low speed, where the effect is much more noticable to the eye. At moderate to high speeds the chuffs begin blending together, and you can't really tell by eye whether there are actually 4 beat per rev or not.
Thanks, guys. Those last few posts got down to answering my questions. I guess the bottom line is that I'll probably just stick with my DC non-sound engines. (The only possible exception which I might make would be the 2-10-2 model of #5044 which BLI is going to release inlate 2007. Since I have the bell from that engine, I might just have to find a way to get the model!) Thanks again- Mike S.
Okay, I have to weigh in here. I have 6 sound steam locos. 3 are articulated. The two cylindered locos are synched at 4 chuffs per revolution and were that way from BLI. And they are not close to 4 chuffs per rev, they are at 4 chuffs per rev. Two simple articulateds slowly go in and out of synch between 4 and 8 chuff per rev at relatively low speed. At higher speed who can tell? They came that way from BLI. The compound Mallet has been set to start in simple at 8 chuffs and switches to compound and 4 chuffs about 8 MPH. It came set up compound from PCM and I changed it per the instructions.
I do not see how 2 chuffs per rev could sound better when that is wrong.
I am ALL DC, but I have a BLI box and a PCM box and I passed reading comprehension.
Virginian- That sounds interesting... and frankly, more like I was expecting to hear about high-end type sound units. Going back to my friend's sound-equipped Spectrum, do you think it sounds like he needs to make a few adjustments? Or is there that much difference in the Spectrum locomotives and your locos? Thanks- Mike
Quote from: Virginian on March 26, 2007, 06:19:03 PM
I do not see how 2 chuffs per rev could sound better when that is wrong.
I think that 2 chuffs per revolution is a hangover from the days when people ran their locomotives at 90 miles an hour but still wanted to hear the individual chuffs, just like they heard standing on the platform when the train pulled out of the station. It is common in synced sound in large scale. And personally, I don't see it being any more wrong than the chuff occuring at the wrong point in the axle rotation. But maybe I am unduly influenced by my large scale locomotives which are hard synchronized. If truly synchronized, there is a chuff when the main rod is fully forward, another when it is fully back, and one more at each of the half way points.** A couple of days ago, I watched an H0 sound equipped locomotive chuffing down the track with 2 chuffs every 7/8 of a turn of the drivers. Watching the sound go in and out of sync with the wheels was mind numbing. But please keep in mind that this is a personal opinion and I realize that the majority of people enjoy sound in the small scales.
** For the purist, this is not exactly true. Because the valves or ports normally lead the pistons by a few degrees, the chuff actually starts slightly before the quarter points. But this is usually invisible to the naked eye unless the locomotive is moving extremely slowly.
Mike, I believe Spectrum uses QSI decoders, so all it ought to need is adjustment.
Jim, I understand what you are saying, but on my two cylindered locos the chuffs are close to perfect. I do not know how, and hope I do not have to take apart the mechanisms anytime soon. I did take apart one articulated to get the engines about 135 degrees out of synch, and the other came that way, therefore the furthest 'off' I can be is 22-1/2 degrees. I have had two brass engines with sound and mechanical cams, and I don't notice a big difference. Also, on some HO engines the wheels are not exactly at a perfect 90 degree quarter, so how good the timing was could vary depending on which side of the loco you were looking at.
Contrary to Virginian's guess:
Quote from: Virginian on March 27, 2007, 04:25:22 AM
Mike, I believe Spectrum uses QSI decoders ...
The new sound-equipped Spectrum steam incorporate decoder based on Soundtraxx Tsunami, not QSI. I believe there is reason to expect the decoder can be "adjusted" - via programming of CV's - to be more synchronized, as described in morrisf's post. The relevant CVs and their values should be in the decoder documentation - which Bachmann should have included in the box.
Just for clarification, I no longer believe Bachmann uses QSI decoders. ;D
I just installed a Tsunami and cam in my Bachman 4-4-0. This synchronizes the chuffing to 4 per wheel rotation.
Sountraxx sells a fiberglass sheet that includes several wheels with spokes for different locomotives (rod engines, geared engines, etc.). By cutting out the appropriate wheel and glueing it to the inside of one driver; then setting up a wiper to rub again the spokes of the wheel, the chuffing can be synchronized exactly to the rotation of the drivers.
I prefer this approach since I have never been successful in soft synchronizing the chuffing. Although one can get close to proper sync'g for a specific load (number of cars), changing the load, or running the loco by itself messes up the sync'g.
I would also like to install a cam in the Bachmann 2-8-0 (Item 84501) that has a Tsunami "Sound on Board". However, there is not a loose wire on the Tsunami board that would go to the cam. Does anyone know which pin to solder a wire so the cam feature can be implemented?
Bachmann... can you answer this question?
Didrik
Dear Didrik,
No, but I imagine Soundtraxx will be able to.
Thanks!
the Bach-man
I have to agree with Virginian, The QSi steam locos from BLi & Lifelike are sync'd very well. I believe this is due to QSi setting up their BEMF settings.
Bachmann Tsunami locos are not set up to sync, as mentioned in the accompanying information that comes with the loco.
To sync the Chuff rate, Tsunami recommend Optimizing the Hyperdrive, CV10,209,210 & 212, on page 44 of your manual. You will need a DCC Control unit capable of reading the CV settings, unless you have a HUGE amount of patience.
You can then go back a couple of pages & setup the DDE.
I only have a PCM DC Master, so programming the Hyperdrive is a pain. I have had a certain amount of success with my Bachmann Tsunami Mountain. Once this is right, I'll start on the other four Bachmann Tsunami locos.
I am very happy with my Bachmann locos, & have enjoyed their reliability & smoothness & detail for many years. This is why I'll persist in getting the chuff rate sorted on the new Tsunami fitted locos, hopefully sooner than latter.
I can see how the QSi fitted locos can justify their additional cost. In time spent, adjusting my Tsunami fitted loco; it has made it more expensive than either a Bli or Life Like equivalent.
QSi should be releasing their aftermarket Quantum Revolution sound system soon, & hopefully they will do all the hard programming for this as well. If it is successful, I'll retrofit all my non-sound Bachmann’s in preference to fiddling with a new Bachmann Tsunami loco.
P.S. I run on DC & this is why I don't have a DCC Control Unit.
Mark,
You mention page 44 of my manual. What manual? I downloaded a manual from Soundtraxx for the normal Tsunami, but I did not get a manual for the Bachmann Psydo-nami. Page 44 of the other manual does not mention Optimizing the Hyperdrive... Therefore, there must be a different manual available.
Where did you get the manual you mention? The "Quick Start Guide" that came with the model mentions a "User's Guide" but it was not included in the box. I checked other boxes at the hobby shop and found no "User's Guide" in those boxes either. :'(
It would be nice if this "User's Guide" was available for download. :)
Didrik
Didrik,
The Quick Start guide, the Instruction Manual & the Technical Manual are on the disc that comes with the loco. I don't have it with me at the moment, but the info you seek is in the Tech' or Instruction Manual.
I printed of a copy of each.... So much easier to mark pages etc, & its portable.
Hey Bach-man,
Perhaps it would be easy for the factory to set CV116 closer to a pretty good value than the decoder's default value.
A little experimentation with the engineering models could establish the initial factory setting. For example, on the On30 Forney, it would be CV116 = 110.
Morris