OK, so we switch to another decoder.

I replicated exactly this same setup.
I VERIFY that the decoder runs a  bulb on address 3
I connect the red and black to the track
I connect the orange and gray to the solder pads on the engineer side of the bottom board in the tender near the front. They are labled MOTOR + and -

I REMOVE THE DUMMY BOARD FROM THE BOTTOM BOARD.

I select loco 3 and the loco motor runs, both directions, all speeds.

I go to ops mode and change the address to 4

I select loco 4 and the motor runs, both directions, all speeds.

NOTES:
In this configuration, the positions of the motor switch, or for that matter any switch in the loco are a moot point.

If you fail to remove dummy plug the loco will not run.

Joker

It sounds like you could be having problems programing, even though the loco jerks and flashes during programing.

The following procedure will help narrow down the problem.

1 Remove the decoder and do a reset to it.

2 Connect the decoder directly to your track, and connect a 12 , 18 or 24 volt bulb to the motor output, pins J1-3 and J1-10.

3 Verify that selecting address 3 and changing the speed varies the light on the bulb.

4 Plug the decoder into the socket.

5 Turn the motor switch in the tender OFF.

6 Turn all three switches behind the smoke box to their center position.

7 Again, connect the bulb to the motor outputs (J1-3 and J1-10)

8 Vary the speed again and confirm that the bulb brightens and dims.

9 Turn the motor switch on.

Now, both the motor speed and the light should vary with the speed setting.

If the motor does NOT run, we can start troubleshooting in earnest. Could be just a bad solder joint.

If the motor does run, we can start troubleshooting in earnest. Could be something in the loco or tender interfering with programing. Have some wire cutters handy.

!! DO NOT SKIP THE FIRST THREE STEPS !!

I find they are easier to remove than to inset. However you have to learn the technique.

The latch has a small ridge on the end closest to the loco.
Place your thumb behind the front step.
Place the end of your thumbnail against the rear edge of the ridge. Push on the ridge to move it up and toward the loco.



If you stand behind the loco, you can insert your thumbs inside the front steps and release both plugs without disturbing the loco or tender in one quick motion.

Three weeks!!!!

So, when I left home a week ago, I could have brought my huge stock of brass shim, and something to cut it with.

I'd have fixed the thing by now.

As it is, it will be next weekend. If only our national security was kept this secret.

Maybe I should just send the Kay to Bachmann, VIA FedEx.

If you are a dealer, or an installer, why are you hiding important information from us plain ordinary users?

Why would you even THINK you should keep such information from the end users? Is it the desire of the installers, dealers, reviewers, and other insiders to insure that we users CAN NOT SUCCESSFULLY get our Kay's to run?

Is it your intent to hide the fixes from the users and force us to send our locos to you for "upgrades"?

Sorry, but we are all grown up. We understand about new models. We understand about Bachmann
I have dozens of German locos. I open the boxes in my back yard and they go straight from the box to the rails. They stay there for years, running any time I feel like it. They come with the sound and DCC installed and working. I don't even lubricate them for the first year two. I never take them inside.

Yet, I still buy a few Bachmann locos.

The Kay came without DCC or sound for the same price I paid for a German Mikado with DCC and Sound.

I just finished getting my 3 truck shay with DCC and sound to work, Took me 6 weeks to get it working. Ended up riping out all the Bachmann stuff to install the DCC and a sound card. So it is not like I didn't know it was going too take a while to get the Kay to work.

It sure would be a lot easier if people would just POST the drawing, schematic, pictures, step by step procedure's.

Instead they are going back channel, emails, got to know the password and secret handshake, swear an oath, WHISPER on the Chats but only during certain hours late at night.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

I like The BIGNESS on 1:20
I like the Grubbiness of geared locos and outside frames.
I like the quaintness of narrow gage.
I like the detail. (But I wish it was sturdier)

Now if Bachmann made locos I could take of of the box and run on my RR, I'd have SEVEN Bachmann 38 ton Shays and ONE German made Forney instead of the other way around.


I'll take the time to coax a few Bachmann locos to life. But, I'm not interested in the Secret societies, Hidden agendas, Mafia connections, and all the rest that seems to go along with prying loose the "SECRETS" to some rater simple, and in my opinion minor things needing to be done to make the Kay a wonderful new addition to my RR.

So, you might as well post what you know now and have bragging rights to being the first to publish.

I got my Kay Friday, was wasted by food poising Saturday. It's now Sunday.
I've found:
solutions for four lockup problems,
how to fix the smoke being sucked down the stack,
corrected three errors on the wiring diagrams,
found out  what causes the short in the headlight circuit,
found out how to get the motor driven axle to float up and down like the rest of the axles,
how to install a Kadee on the front so it will magnetically uncouple and not stick out as far as the Bachmann Knuckle, 
traced out lands of 5 different circuit boards,
found out why the "load-complensated flickering firebox" is not.

AND I'M JUST GETING STARTED
I have three differentt control sysems and a half dozen sound cards I plan to try in the Kay.

Believe me, I won't use "modify or upgrade" when I mean "FIX or REPAIR".
It's a "Bachmann K27", not "some ghost loco".
I don't hide behind emails or require a secret handshake.

Remember, whatever your little click was, it's been infiltrated by REAL users who actually ordered and paid for their locos.

I'll try to be as outspoken and as matter of fact as someone I USED to idolize. Maybe the old TOC will return to us, or maybe he as gone over to the dark side. KeyRice, sometimes it's hard to remember if I'm reading a reply from the Dave or Stanly, have to go back and look at the Avatar to see who is being evasive.

B0B

Tommy.
Thanks for the additional information.

Like I said, That is only ONE off the things that causes the Kay to lock up.

I have not run mine other than on rollers and a short straight test track.

After your reply, I ran it back and forth trying to replicate your symptoms.
NADA, Mine does not lock up after changing direction, (short runs of 10 feet, pulling no cars, on Analog DC.)

As to the loose counterweights:
I checked mine, all eight. The screws are tight.
If I grasp both counterweights and gently rotate them by hand, they spin FREELY  ABOUT 20 to 30 degrees with respect to each other and then stop. The angle is pretty consistent from pair to pair as I compare each axle.

Looking closer at the screw head in the center of the counterweights I notice that all of the counterweights are allowed to rotate freely ABOUT 10 to 15 degrees with respect to the axle. Since each counterweight is allowed to rotate on the axle, the difference in the quartering between any two counterweights on an axle is twice the angle on one counterweight in relation to the axle.

When I first noticed this I thought it strange and decided that there must be something very different about the way the Kay is designed. I wondered if perhaps this was intentional and might make the Kay perform smoother on curves than other locos with rigidly attached drive-rods that must be "in Quarter"

The consistency of the angle of movement and the very freeness of movement made me also think that this was an intentional design. (Along with a statement from someone that there is noting wrong with the counterweights.)

Now keep in mind that I just got my Kay yesterday, and I am going through my checklist for new locos prior to installing DCC. I have reached the step where I need to make sure the loco runs smooth and is free of binds.

This is the check I was performing:
I set the loco on OILED Nickle silver rail, attached an amp meter and applied 5 volts DC. I attached several rubber bands between the rear coupler and a track tie to provide a "springy" sort of stall on slippery rail. The loco should stretch the rubber bands and at some point begin slipping. Binds, or tights spots in the valve gear will show up as variation in current or oscillations back and forth of the loco.


I've gone  through the lubrication routine.

On the oiled track test, the Kay has a LOT of oscillations. About 2" back and forth. Not good but not as bad as some first attempts. I also notice a clunking sound once per wheel revolution and sudden jerks of some of the counterweights. I dropped the voltage a little till the loco stopped and raised it again slowly. The wheels did  move a little and then stalled. More voltage and the the motor started to hum. Back up to 5 volts and it is locked in a dead stall.

I repeated this several times and each time the locos locked, sure enough, the articulated drive rod is trying to push one counterweight backward. Moving the counterweight or lifting up on the drive rod at the offending axle frees the bind.

I removed the front counterweights. and examined them closely. The hole in the center of the counterweight is "D" shaped so it would be keyed to the axle which has a matching flat spot. If  the hole was the same size as the shaft, the counterweight would be held exactly 45 degrees from the counterweight on the other end of the shaft. Unfortunately, the hole in the counterweight is too large. The counterweight is not only free to rotate, but can wobble. Further, the flat on the axle extends further along the shaft than the thickness of the inner mating surface of the counterweight. No amount of tightening of the screw or adding washers will secure the counterweight to the axle because the length of the "D" shaped  end of the axle extends beyond the thickness of the counterweight at the hole. The counterweight will always be free to slide along the axle a very slight amount and the washers under the screw will always be bottomed out on the end of the shaft before any pressure is applied to grip the counterweight.

There are AT LEAST three options for a field repair.

• 1 Install stainless shim stock on the flat side of the "D". Brass might also work, but being softer, it might not hold up long term.
• 2 Drill and tap a hole in the hub in the counterweight and install a set screw so it engages with the flat on the axle.
• 3 Drill out the counterweight and press fit a new hub with a proper size "D"

I don't have the facilities to accomplish any of these here at my office so will have to wait till I return home next weekend to try effecting a repair. Unless of course, someone comes up with some other working solution.

I continued looking for the cause of the oscillations by removing all the drive-rods and checking for binds. I found none.

When I re-assembled the Kay, I decided to experiment with a temporary fix. Not having any shim stock handy, I sanded down some plastic cable ties to the needed thickness and pressed the counterweights with the pieces of cable ties back onto the shafts. This removed some of the wobble but the plastic is too soft to really do an effective job. This did make the Kay stop binding and reduce the oscillations of the Kay back and forth on the oiled track to about 1/2 inch. not perfect but OK for a while. This at least give me hope that the Kay can be made to start up smoothly.
B0B

My green undecorated Kay came with a hose and the glad hand and cutout on the tender,,,, but not on the front of the loco.

I was more disappointed that my tender has no backup light.

Quote from: tommygunner on January 17, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
My DRGW 455 K runs sweet and quiet but it has this little anoying quirk after a few loops around my indoor layout I will stop the loco and try to reverse it,some times it reverses some times not.  When it does not reverse I noticed the  2nd axle lifts up and the siderod jambs. If I pull rod down loco runs ok.Siderod has a joint between 2nd and 3rd axle to allow the rod to flex as drivers negotiate rough track, however rr track is perfectly flat. This also will happen if loco is run a few laps in reverse then stopped and I try to run it forward . I'm starting to think that problem is related to prior post about loose counterweights. There is a lot of play in the siderod /counterweight part of the mechanism and I wonder if that is causing lock up problem as motor /gearbox runs smooth as glass. Anyone else having this problem???, Any help would be appreciated.

The exact same symptoms you discribe happened on mine.
I sketched in hidden parts of the reverser in the picture of the right (engineers) side of  the K27.


Look close at your loco, Make sure the screw is not missing on the engineers side.

ALSO!
Look close at BOTH sides and make sure the blue part goes through the center of the green part. If not, remove the screw. Once both sides are properly engaged, install the screw.


B0B

You can bet I will not pre-order another Bachmann Loco, People are getting them off the shelf and I am still waiting.

When you order a Kay practically the day the model numbers and prices are announced, you sort of expect some sort of priority in the shipping order.

Isn't there some way to fill pre-orders first?

B0B

So, I preorder the day after Bachmann announces the part numbers and prices..

Others are just walking into shops, or ordering on ebay while mine has not even been released for shipment.

Last time I preorder.

the plus side of the decoder output should be labeled "+" or it should be an orange wire.

Prior to installing the decoder, the motor should have been wired with the plus side of the motor to the right (engineers side) of the loco's track pickups.

Normally this wire would be red!

Got that! red, right "+".
The motor is not marked with a "+" on either connector, the "+" lead is simply the one that makes the loco go FORWARD when a positive voltage is applied to the. It is possible that a motor, with a red wire soldered to one lead would make one loco go forward, but if moved to another loco would make that second loco go backward, It all depends on the orientation and gearing of the loco.

Check the loco first on a DC supply, Set the direction switch so the loco goes forward.

Install the track pickup wires to the decoder, (red to right rail, black to left rail.

Temporarily attach the orange and gray wires to the motor.
Now put the loco back on the track FACING THE SAME DIRECTION, DO NOT CHANGE THE DIRECTION SWITCH on the power pack.
Give the loco a little throttle and it should move FORWARD, if not reverse the orange and gray wires at the motor. Now you can connect up the rest of the wires.

Quote from: Dr Rivet on December 27, 2007, 06:46:52 PM
Too bad your email is "hidden" on your profile. 
...

Sorry about that, I was not aware that someone could not email me from this board. I Think I have fixed that now. If not, please let me know.

Quote...
Regarding the apparent "exclusion" of some products from the conversion list; let it be known that some vendors choose not to participate; probably to their own detriment.  Too bad.

Cheers

I wonder, were they all asked? If I were battery/RC or sound system manufacturer, (I'm NOT) or a conversion shop, (I'm NOT) where would I find information about upcoming products from Bachmann? How would they get on a "list" of companies that make various conversion products? If such a list exists, where is it published?

I'd love to see a list of conversion products for my Annie, Lynn, Big Hauler, Two Truck Shay and Three Truck Shay.

As I sit here installing sound and DCC in my new three truck shay, ordered WITH DCC and sound back when it was first released, I wonder just how long it will take to do the Kay.

For example., here is the link to the PDF for the wiring diagram for the Shay.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/G824X-2.PDF

It don't work!

I got it from Product Reference - Diagrams - Spectrum - LS 3 TRUCK SHAY DCC SOUND

If after a year, you still can't provide a wiring diagram for the Shay, (which was ordered with DCC and Sound but came without it) what makes me think we will see one for the Kay any time soon?

Can someone please scan whatever wiring diagrams come with the K27 and post them? I am trying to make sure I have all the stuff on hand when the Kay arrives and without diagrams I have no clue what these posts are all about.

Wouldn't hurt if I had a schematic for the shay so I can get the darn thing off my workbench before the Kay arrives. Why not fix the link for the shay diagram and post the one for the Kay at the same time.

The only reason I ordered the Shay was because it came with DCC and Sound. Should have been a 10 second thing to program the address and run.
Took a year to find out that the reason they couldn't find my shay was because the dealer got one without DCC and sound instead. Took two weeks to find out that Bachmann can't or wont's send me the missing board. took me three weeks to trace out all the wires, measure all the voltages, replace the 9 volt regulator for the smoke unit, reverse the firebox diodes, solder wires to the chuff switches, etc.

If the shay was supposed to be RTR on DCC what can I expect from the Kay? Supposedly the Airwire took less time to install than to focus a camera.

So what is the holdup? the last post says as luck would have it,Something is shorted out, caused a leak in the lighting and chuff circuits, and something will be replaced. You don't say what shorter or what is being replaced? The transistor, the chuff circuit, the lighting board, the sound card? With all this cryptic descriptions, fuzzy pictures, lack of diagrams, what are we supposed to gain?.

Just release the hold on shipping and let us figure them out ourselves. Doesn't look like you are going to have this stuff figured out by Dec 31st, (Or Jan 7th for that matter.) So just tell the suppliers they can go ahead and ship the K27. We'll figure them out.
I for one, have a variety of decoders, including both the Digitrax ones with the Aristo socket. I have six different sound cards to try. surely one of them will work, but which one?

If you are going to do a review, the REVIEW the loco, not talk about all the trials, mis steps, phone calls to this person or that person or trips to Radio Shack.

Start out simple. First thing we need to know, so we know which decoder or RC motor escapement to buy would be current draw.

How many amps does the motor draw free running at 18 volts?
How many amps does the motor draw stalled at 18 volts?
Now many amps does the loco draw stopped at 18 volts with all the lights and smoke unit on?
How many amps with the smoke unit off?

OK, answer those and at least we have some ballpark idea of what sort of decoder or RC system it would be possible to install.

Now, the second thing would be the sound. Which sound system was the chuff circuit designed to work with. We know it does not allow for plug and play of the Phoenix, so which sound system should we order?

Tell me that and I can probably figure out from the sound system specifications if any of the other sound system I have on hand are compatable.


Let's hope that, once we know what DCC decoder and sound is plug and play, we can have the Kay running in less time than it took to get the Ready to Run Shay going.

I need to remove the flicker board in the Bachmann three truck shay.

What is the easiest way to get to the two screws that hold the board to the loco, These are the two that go through the board with the heads facing the front of the loco, Do you use a lonnnnnnnng screwdriver inserted through the smoke-box after removing the front of the smoke-box and sliding out the smoke generator, or is there more stuff that has to be removed? Or, is there an easier way I'm not seeing from the exploded diagram?

(I'm praying that I don't have to disassemble the whole loco.)

(In case you are wondering,.. I have to reverse the diodes to get them to work.)

Quote from: YellowHillsCentral on December 02, 2007, 11:07:21 PM
... want to be able to use all of the sound options and have at least ten engines. ...

since he sells E-Z-COMMAND well...

Not to be a hard nose, but, it would be helpful if you rephrase your requirements.

have at least 10 engines

Most DCC system can address 9,999 locos. You could have 2 locos sitting on the track, or 50 of them. Select any one of them, turn a knob and it goes. Want to run more than ONE AT A TIME? You will probably need to have more than one KNOB to twist.

First thing is, smaller cheaper or older systems often have a limit as to the number of locos they can CONTROL (operate, run) at one time. Usually 22 or 27. You could have 100 of them on your layout, you just won't be able to run more than 22 - 27 at the same time.

Larger, newer, or more expensive systems usually have a limit of 99 or 127 locos all at the same time. So, If you only have 10 locos, any system will handle that.

Also, a pair or more of locos, (AB set or ABBBBBA set), all with the same address, counts as ONE LOCO.

So, your first requirement should read, "I plan to have no more than xx locos running at one time."

Now lets look at a typical Cab. ( In DCC the thing you hold in you hand to control the loco is a Cab.)
A Cab has one or two throttles (knobs to control the speed) and buttons to control the functions, (lights and sounds) as well as buttons to control turnouts, lights and sounds in buildings, and system functions like power on/off or "PANIC" (Stop all locos)

Advanced users like two throttles on their cab, ( two knobs on their handheld). It's very nice for helper operations, or just doing switching while also running a slow freight. Most Garden railroaders will not need more than one dual throttle cab. Single throttle cabs are fine for additional operators. And, very simple (basic) single throttle cabs are best for visitors.

This next thing is a little hard to grasp, so read it twice.

If your system can run 22 lot even 100 locos at one time, you can do that with just ONE CAB, even one with only one throttle (knob).

You select a loco, move it to the mainline, get it up to speed. Then, select another loco, move it to the mainline and let it run. You could do this 22, 27, 99, or even 127 times depending on the system limits. Many systems provide a way to scroll through a list of active locos so you can easily adjust the speeds or blow whistles, etc.

In reality, About 8 trains on one cab is about the limit a teenager can do. Two is all I can manage.

Now watch out for a little deception. Some manufacturers state 22, 27, 99, etc as the number of locos you can run. That is fine if you need that many running at once except for one thing. They don't tell you how many CABS their system will handle. If it has a built in cab, and will only accept one additional expansion cab, then you better have the reflexes of a 14 year old game freak to run 22 locos using just two knobs. Make sure you know how many throttles the system will take AND WHAT ELSE IS NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO ATTACH ADDITIONAL THROTTLES.


So, Your next requirement will be; "I plan to have as many as "y" operators running at the same time and will need throttles for each of them.

Now the third requirement.
How many watts of power will it take?

If all ten of your locos are sitting on sidings, not moving, they take very little power. Perhaps about 2 watts or less per loco.

A small, or just very efficient loco (expensive brass loco with 60:1 gear-heads) will usually use 10 watts just to cruse along with a couple cars on level track.

A large diesel with 4  or 6 motors can easily use 100 watts on a gentle grade.

Fortunately, DCC is not like DC. For DC, if you start with a pack that is too small, you will have to remove it and buy a bigger one. With DCC you just add another booster each time you outgrow you system power capacity. As long as your initial booster can handle one or two of your biggest locos and have a little in reserve for turnouts, it is fine. Later you can add more boosters and perhaps more power supplies (to power the boosters). You never have to discard boosters in order to go to a more powerful system.

So, for the third requirement you might say something like this. I plan to start with one Shay and a few 0-4-0's pulling short trains on 4% grades." - OR - "I plan to start with an ABBA set and 12  streamline passenger cars with a 1% grade and R3 curves." - OR - "I dislike dismals and will only ever run small logging trains like a shay with maybe 12 cars."

SIDE NOTE:
I used watts instead of amps, why? Well, Watts is a measure of POWER. Amps are useless unless you also know the voltage applied to the rails.
If a given loco, pulling 12 cars up a 2% grade at a scale 40 MPH uses 60 watts, it will take the same 60 watts of power to accomplish the task, regardless of the DCC voltage.
If that loco that uses 60 watts on a 12 volt DCC track, that's 5.00 amps.
If that loco that uses 60 watts on a 16 volt DCC track, that's 3.75 amps.
If that loco that uses 60 watts on a 18 volt DCC track, that's 3.33 amps.
If that loco that uses 60 watts on a 22 volt DCC track, that's 2.73 amps.
If that loco that uses 60 watts on a 24 volt DCC track, that's 2.50 amps.

Remember. The DCC voltage on the rails is constant for a given system. The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage to produce the same amount of power.

Way too much emphasis is placed on the amperage of a system when selecting it. What is important is the total power (Watts) available.
For example:
A 24 volt 5 amp system can deliver 120 watts of power to the loco.
A 20 volt 8 amp system can deliver 160 watts of power to the loco.
A 16 volt 10 amp system can deliver 160 watts of power to the loco.

At first glance the 10 amp system seem like a better choice, but, in reality, if you have 4 locos that need 40 watts each to pull a train, both the 8 amp and 10 amp systems will max out at four locos. ( 4 locos x 40 watts = 160 watts ). On the other hand. A single loco on 20 volts will be able to run faster on 20 volts and faster still on the 24 volt system.  Also, higher voltage means less problems due to dirt and less power loss on longer tracks.

Summery:
So, since garden railroaders often run fewer trains and do not use computers for automation, or have as many separate loops, the number of locos the command station supports is less important.

Since we are not restricted by narrow isles to the number of operators, the number of throttles we can attach is sometimes more important.

Since the track is dirtier than indoor track, higher voltage is important.

Since more power can be added by adding more boosters, the amperage is less important as long as the total power from one booster can handle our biggest SINGLE loco or consist.

Be careful, these recommendations are in some cases just the opposite of what the DCC "experts" will tell you. Most DCC experts don't have a clue when it comes to running large scale outdoors. Their advice is almost always based on the common practices for "HO" and "N" scale.

Don't know if you have any choice. I understand that a few shops may have the shay with sound in stock, so, you could shop around. Maybe someone on this forum happened to see one somewhere and can point you to one.

If you use DCC, you will like the Tsunami. If you use analog, then you will like the Phoenix.

If using DCC, remember, the Phoenix does not control the motor, only the sounds, the Tsunami controls both sound and motor. You need to be sure that 100$ extra includes both a Phoenix (probably the P5) sound card and a DCC motor controller.

The Phoenix (either the 2K2 or P5) is an awesome sound card when combined with a good DCC motor decoder. It sounds great. However there are some very nice features on the Tsunami that separate decoders can not do. Like, modifying the sound of the chuff based on the load or grade. Also, things like the lights being a little dim, then brightening up when the sound of the steam powered electric generator starts.

I really wanted those features which is why I ordered the Shay with the Tsunami sound and DCC motor decoder. In my opinion, the Phoenix may SOUND better to some people, but the Tsunami OPERATES more realistically.