I have several EZ Track crossovers and turnouts that I would like to be able to control with my control panel buttons or toggles rather than with my NCE Power Cab. I also want to have red/green light identification for turnout position.
Before I take apart the bottom of an EZ Track turnout, I'd like to know which wire operates what.
I'd appreciate an help with this matter.
Perhaps this can provide some of the assistance for info being sought:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,30003.msg220978.html#msg220978
...and this, courtesy of my pal Jerry, may provide some additional helpful, info:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,27140.0.html
Thanks, Jim, but the instructions' link in Jerry's post is for the non-DCC powered turnouts. Wires are attached to those. In a DCC turnout or crossover, the wires are hidden in plastic compartments under the unit--at least for the turnout I checked. Before I moved ahead with this idea, I was just wondering which wires did what. The other post that Jerry had is probably what I need--the green wire needs to connect to both momentary switches.
My mistake for reading the body of your post and not the title. How embarrassing :-[
At least I now know what the underside of a DCC turnout looks like, so thanks for the multiple lessons. :)
PS: How possible is it for you to remove the screws from that metal cover? If the machine is the same kinda coil as on "regular' switch machines, maybe there is hope...Others would know better if they are the same or not and if there can be a chance of modifying one to work like a "regular" switch machine does, using 3 wires to operate it.
Thought I'd post the pics I took this afternoon of the Bachmann EZ Command DCC Turnout - Right - Item No. 44131
I removed the screws for the plate in the back that covers the physical switching mechanism on the right. The decoder is on the left covered with tape. The electronic switching mechanism is in the center:
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150629_174548_zpsyp9hcmyf.jpg)
This is a close-up of the wires leading from the decoder on the left into the electronic switching mechanism. I removed the black tape for the shot. Underneath the wires are metal frog connectors.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150629_174657_zpsoucihhie.jpg)
This is a close up of the physical switcher on the right.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150629_174601_zps7pvpxdkq.jpg)
It seems to me that it would be beyond my capabilities to adapt this turnover and two others, much less two DCC crossovers, so that I could control the turnout and lights from my control panel.
On the other hand, I'm fully capable of having construed all of this wrong and that the answer might be much simpler than it appears to my unpracticed eye.
I would hope an answer I can follow is posted in this thread.
Ken
To operate signals or lights, you need a closure. Pair of contacts.
Usually Bachmann turnouts have been twin coil machines.
No idea how Bachmann controls twin coils with a decoder if that is what is inside the metal box. No idea if DCC turnouts flip quickly like standard turnouts.
I would remove the metal cover and see what is inside.
Rich
First, put the plastic cover back before the mechanical parts fall out. You shouldn't have to mess with them.
Remove the metal cover next to the mechanical mechanism, and you'll see that it's a twin coil solanoid type machine. There should be a wire going to the end of each coil, and either one or two tied together going to the middle. Those are the ones you want. The rest are for getting power to the decoder.
Len
Thanks, Len, I'll look under there. Sounds like more trouble than I want to take on.
Glad to learn I was on the right track after all.... :D
Yes. Thanks to Jim, too. He suggested it earlier in the thread. He also shared a video about connecting the wires. Rather than splicing them, you just remove a bit of the insulation, wrap the connecting wire around it, and solder the connection.
Very helpful, indeed. I might be able to do that.
I guess it doesn't matter which wire controls the divergent or main. I could just switch the connections to the push buttons on my panel.
Jim, also made that very helpful suggestion.
Thanks, Jim.
As Rob Schneider would say Ken, "you can do it!!"
Your welcome. Glad I could help ;)
I guess it doesn't matter which wire controls the divergent or main. I could just switch the connections to the push buttons on my panel.
You are correct Ken, it does not. The Common or Return is the important one. What I would do, if you are going to have more than one of these set up this way, is to wire up a barrier strip that has the Common coming to it from the power source, then have the Common wires from each turnout connected to that barrier strip. Do something similar with one set up for the "hot" coming from the power source. Then you can run one "hot" wire from that barrier strip , to each one of your momentary push buttons and then a wire from each push button to the turnout (two buttons for each turnout). Stick with consistent wire colors, like green and red (and use that same color pattern for the color of the butttons too) and black for the common, to make life easy for any potential trouble shooting.
A Circuitron Snapper is a very good device for operating twin coil machines. It operates 0n AC or DC.
Once in a while someone has burned out a twin coil by holding down the push button switch to long if the points hang up. The Snapper eliminates this issue.
You can hold the button down with the Snapper and the coil will not be damaged. It has current limiting.
Rich
Secret: don't hold the button down. ;)
Easier said than done with young grandkids.
Len
It's certainly a fair point. But with proper instruction, understanding and respect for what is being conveyed, the chances of that happening are minimized. Of course, for the ultra paranoid, there can never be too many belts and suspenders employed.
(this is seeming like deja vu, right down to the commentators or is it just me?)
To illustrate my above point, I consulted a friend of mine who is into O Scale and had a 4.5 year son he involves with their layout and their trains. He said his son knows how to use and respects a hand held DCS remote as a result of his father coaching him that it is equipment to be handled gently.
I've been out of town and partly out of touch for a couple of days. Thanks for the input.
As Jim and Len recommended, I unscrewed the metal plate covering the solenoid mechanism, but found it was still sealed. Instead of coming off, the plate remained attached to the physical throws. Len had warned about removing the plate that covered these throws (see above comment). By that time, I had already removed it and had a bit of a challenge putting it back together. (BTW, the top two holes on the housing appear to be rivets, not screws, rendering the unit sealed.)
Not wanting to go through that again, I screwed the metal plate back to the turnout housing.
I understand the way to solve the original problem posted in this thread. Locate the two wires that control the solenoid. Ah, but there's the rub. I don't know which two wires out of the five sprouting from the decoder are the ones.
But I've narrowed it down to the gray, the brown, and one of the reds (the one not going to power the frogs, which seems to be the function of the orange and the other red). See this picture:
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150701_211451_zpscc6tswpa.jpg)
Notice the orange and top red wires going to the frogs.
This closeup shows the decoder:
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150701_212507_zps2hi6vesl.jpg)
Check my logic.
The red and orange wires on the right power the frogs.
The other three from the top are gray, the other red, and the brown. They are soldered to the L1, +, and L2, according to the stamped ID on the decoder. My guess is that the other red (attached to the +) is the common? The L1 (gray) and L2 (brown) control the throwing of the solenoid.
This is an upside-down shot that lets you see a different angle:
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150701_211451_zpscc6tswpa.jpg)
Does this reasoning sound right?
Ken, you could very well be on the right track. I only say it in this manner bc I cannot see the picture as clearly as you describe it. There are 3 wires that go into where the metal covered box is (where the solenoid is) correct? It is 1 Red, the Gray and the Brown, is that right?
If that is correct, I would desolder those 3 wires from the circuit DCC board. Set your multi meter to the OHMs (resistance) setting). Put one probe to the Red and put the other prob to either the Gray or Brown. If you are correct about the Red being the Common, you should get little to no resistance. Then to confirm, put your probes on the Gray and Brown-you should get infinite resistance. This will confirm the Gray and Brown are the wires that provide the current to throw the turnout into it's 2 positions. If you want to double check further, put the probes on the Red and the other color you did not first test. Do you see what you are doing here by this test?
If the first scenario does not work as described, then the Gray or Brown may be the Common and I would test the same way but by putting the probes on a different combination of wire colors until you find the ones that don't have any resistance between them and the ones that do.
I hope this helps.
Jim, what you summarize about the connections is correct. Thanks for partly confirming my reasoning. But desoldering? Yikes! That would require resoldering if I wanted to leave the turnout viable for both DCC and pushbutton operation. Anyone getting a closeup of my soldering work on power feeds would have a good chuckle at my being turned loose on a decoder. Do you remember the old commercial of a chimpanzee with a chainsaw?
I'm sure you're correct in these instructions, and I thank you for them. I was kinda hoping someone who has Bachmann turnouts would know the color scheme.
You would have to desolder them anyway Ken to bypass the chip and set them up as a standard operating turnout, as you had asked about.
I know you have the meter. Don't you now also have a really super soldering station to work with? ;)
PS-And no, I don't remember the one about the monkey and the chain saw. How did that one go? I know the one about all the monkeys on typewriters...
PSS-Always keep in mind, that not all things come easy to do the first time and can take some practice and patience to get better at them. Not doing, will result for sure, in not getting any better at that some thing.
I think Ken wants to splice into the wires between the decoder and solenoid for the push buttons, so he doesn't lose any functionality. By splicing into the wires, he can operate either way, DCC control or push button control.
Len
Jim, with chain saw buzzing, the chimp came out of the woods at the end of an old synergy ad, showing the genesis of the chaos that had begun the ad. It was funnier to see it . . .
As to the typewriters, in theory, given enough pianos, chimps, and time, you would produce Beethoven's 32nd piano sonata. Hard to believe that construct of probability theory.
I tried for a long time yesterday to contact Bachmann by phone, by email, and through this forum. No response. Someone there knows the color code.
I know you're thinking, "So de-solder the wires already and move on!" But I can't be sure the wires underneath the turnout I photographed are the same color as the other two turnouts and two crossover, which will require more disassembling of my layout to get to. The crossovers are new, but the turnouts are older, used ones. I would think they have kept the same wiring pattern over the last several years, but I'd feel better hearing it from Bachmann.
And Len is right that I'd like to keep from ruining the turnout, which is much more probable than the chimps channeling Beethoven. :)
Snyergy? Who, what, dat?
Quote from: Len on July 03, 2015, 05:36:13 AM
I think Ken wants to splice into the wires between the decoder and solenoid for the push buttons, so he doesn't lose any functionality. By splicing into the wires, he can operate either way, DCC control or push button control.
Len
Ahhh, a sound approach. My question: if spliced, will juice not also be sent in the direction of the chip, with a momentary push button? Will this cause harm to the DCC end of things? My thought process was to take the DCC component out of the equation in such a way, it can always be hooked up again the future if/when things change.
Quote from: kdgrant6 on July 03, 2015, 08:25:18 AM
I know you're thinking, "So de-solder the wires already and move on!"
You certainly do, that was exactly my thinking :D
But;
Quote from: kdgrant6 on July 03, 2015, 08:25:18 AM
But I can't be sure the wires underneath the turnout I photographed are the same color as the other two turnouts and two crossover, which will require more disassembling of my layout to get to.
..given this, which I was not aware of, adds other factors than just working with the one turnout and based on that, you make perfect sense to try and see what the Bachmann people can tell you.
One further thought before I go back to chores.
If no answer is forthcoming and you are left with having to dissemble the plate over the solenoid of another turnout and the crossover, like you have here and the wires turn out (no pun intended) to be different colors than this one, I still think you can determine which wires do what with the process I described. Then, while testing, write down which colored wires, when energized, move the points to the through route and to the divergent route and then you can wire up your controls. Of course, this would require desoldering of each set of 3 wires going to the solenoid. If no answer comes, I don't know what other choice you would have.
I finally reached Bachmann's Service Department this morning. They closed last Thursday at noon and were closed all day Friday. It would have been good to have heard that message when I called, but that's another matter.
I spoke with Rodney in the Service Department, who coincidentally had been working on a Bachmann DCC crossover. He was friendly and informative.
This is the answer:
There's not really a color code to either turnouts or crossovers. He told me you could tell based on position of the wires coming out of the decoder and going to the solenoid compartment. On turnouts, the middle wire is the common. For crossovers, there are four wires. The outer two control the solenoid direction. He did not know which side controlled which direction of the solenoid, but that's not important for my original question.
So in my earlier picture of the turnout, the red wire is the common. Incidentally, I checked another turnout and found the wiring the same.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/20150701_211834_zpsnjvmaem9.jpg)
As for crossovers, they have 4 wires. The two on the end are the ones that throw the solenoid. One middle is the common; the other, the link to the frog.
Here are two shots of the more complex underside of this piece of track. The first shows the solenoid compartments to either side with the decoder in the middle. Eight wires exit the decoder, with four going to each side. The outer two control the solenoid.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/Closeup%202_zpsc6grbryi.jpg)
This shot shows both the turnout (top) and the crossover.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah209/kdgrant6/Crossover%20and%20Turnout_zpsptmmx3y3.jpg)
So the color of the wire isn't important. It's its position.
Of course, Rodney offered the big caveat: Check it first before you lock everything down.
Well . . .
OK, so it's been awhile, but I continued with this project with special help from a couple of you guys on the board.
First, let me say that Bachmann's tech department says that the turnouts can be converted to dual function (by that I mean controlling them either through the DCC controller or through momentary push buttons.)
So today, I finished one turnout. I cut, spliced, and soldered the three wires that enter the sealed solenoid compartment (see earlier pictures in this thread). I put shrink tubing over two of the wires and pulled it back over each of the connections.
I reattached the turnout to my layout and was satisfied that the DCC function wasn't compromised.
I had three wires coming out of the side notch of the turnout. I experimented to find which was which by using my common and positive terminal strips that power my other non-EZ turnouts. I figured out which was common, then I tried to determine which wire controlled which solenoid.
I was surprised. Both of the non-common wires switched the turnout from the divergent to the main position only!
That shouldn't happen. With the common established, one of the other two wires should switch the turnout one way. The other wire should return it to the opposite position.
Or have I overlooked something very important?
By the way, earlier pictures show 5 wires coming out of the decoder, but two of those apparently power the frogs. Only three enter the sealed solenoid compartment.
Anyone have an idea what is going on?
OK.
Anyone reading my last response on this thread I began weeks ago, I'm sure had a good laugh. I should qualify that by adding "anyone who also had adequate knowledge of how electricity works." (It is readily apparent through my posts that I do not, although a couple of this forum's very knowledgeable contributors have attempted to help me with that.)
Here's what I've found about these Bachmann turnouts (remember this is about the 44130 and 44131 turnouts).
The RED wire is common to both directions of the turnout's operation. But it is connected to the positive side coming out of the Peco DCU.
(I say "but" because I thought commons were always negative.)
The GRAY wire, connected momentarily to the negative side of the CDU, turns the switch to the straight position.
The BROWN wire, connected momentarily to the negative side of the CDU, turns the switch to the divergent position.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, having the option of using momentary push buttons on a control panel to control turnouts is much easier than accessing their DCC commands. In addition, by adding an Atlas Snap Relay to the turnout connection, you also have the convenience of adding signal lighting and panel lighting for the turnout. If you know how to do latching relays, you can do that without buying the Atlas piece.
Please, if you find an error in this information, please post a correction.
I hope this information helps someone.
I put together a quick diagram of what Ken's describing for future reference by anyone else doing this:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l529/Pickanotherid/EZ-Track/EZ-Turnout_zpsjf9rxd90.jpg)
In the event the wire colors change, looking at the printed circuit board the connections are labeled 'L1', L2', and '+', with '+' being the common connection.
The "16V" label is there because the software I used to make the drawing requires a value as part of the label. As long as it's within the range allowed for your switch machines, any voltage could be used instead.
Len
Question: (and I realize it works this way) Why does the Common have to be + for this to work, as opposed to it being - as Common normally is?
Thanks.
Based on the labeling on the decoder board, it appears to have a DC output. With the '+' DC output for the common. If you connect that to the '-' of the external power souce for the pushbuttons, the CDU in this case also has a DC output, it creates a momentary short whenever a button is pushed. By connecting the '+' of the CDU to common, along with the decoder '+', current is always flowing in the same direction through the coils, regardless if it's the decoder or CDU providing the power. Without any shorts being created, so everything works.
I suspect things would get even more complicated if an AC external power source were used.
Len
So the short answer is because the DCC chip is involved here? Would I be correct to say if the DCC chip was left out of the equation and just the wires to the switch machine were directly involved, then the Common would be -, as Common normally is designated and the other wires (the Gray and Brown) would be the ones to carry the momentary, + power?
Thanks.
Jim,
If no decoder was involved it wouldn't matter if you used the '+' or '-' of the CDU as common, as long as it was consistent throughout the layout. Adding the decoder to the mix essentially adds a second power source for the switch machines if external buttons are also used.
Since there's no way to change the common output of the decoder, at least that I'm aware of, the external source has to be set up to match it. I took a quick look, and the Digitrax DS64 switch control decoder is set up the same way, '+' common, for twin coil switch machines. Again, with no way to change it.
Inductors, which is all a solenoid coil really is, are current driven devices, meaning the '+' being common makes sense from an electronics standpoint. Everyone thinks of DC voltage flowing from the '+' to the '-', but current actually flows from the '-' to the '+'. Making the '+' terminal the current sink. And the sink side of a circuit is normally what you want as the common connection.
Again, if you're just using an external power supply and push buttons, it doesn't matter if you use '+', '-', or AC power. Just so it's consistent.
Len
Thank you Len, that is what I thought. The red herring if you will, appears to be keeping the decoder in the loop as opposed to leaving it disconnected or isolating it.
BTW, while what you say makes sense to me, I have only ever heard of the Common in reference to the neutral or ground, not something you would connect (pun intended) with being the positive side of the circuit. And if I have my choice of interrupting the circuit, I will choose to interrupt it (by push button for example) on the positive side of the circuit as opposed to the negative side.
Jim,
As I said, with a single power source it doesn't really matter, as long as it's consistent throughout. When I hear 'neutral' and 'ground', I start thinking AC house wiring with hot, neutral, and ground. Which may be why a lot of 3-rail O-gaugers operating on AC refer to 'hot' and 'return' or 'ground' for the center and outside rails respectively.
Negative voltages, e.g., -48VDC, with a '+' common are pretty much the norm in the telecommunications industry. A lot of early digital and computer circuits also used a '+' common for their -5VDC and -12VDC ciruits.
Personally, I don't mix buttons and stationary decoders on the same switch. I either use ground throws, buttons, or DS64 stationary decoders. Like you, I use the '-' side of the CDU output as common for the buttons, on the DS64's it's built in for common to be '+', and the ground throws don't care.
Len
Quote from: Len on August 24, 2015, 06:59:18 PM
Personally, I don't mix buttons and stationary decoders on the same switch.
I am with you on that
Len and would not have gone about it that way. Too many variables entering into the equation, making any troubleshooting a little more complex.