Coreless motors can work with ultrasonic (silent) decoders but don't try them with lower frequency ones.  And don't try running them without a decoder even if your DCC system can drive dc locomotives.  Coreless motors have very low inductance so the DCC type ac sails right through them, overheating them in very short time.

But keep in mind that coreless motors normally have brushes.  They are not the brushless motors the OP is asking about.  One type of brushless motor spins a permanent magnet armature inside a number of fixed electromagnets, just like a stepping motor.  But unlike stepping motors which require some fairly complex electronics to sequence the electromagnets, they rely on feedback of the armature's position, often by Hall effect devices.

Stepping motors, in my opinion, will be the next big step forward in model locomotive control.  Integrating the multiphase control circuits into a decoder would seem to be pretty straight forward.  As stepping motors respond to the number of pulses fed to them, there would be no need to shuffle back and forth between analogue and digital in the control chain from throttle knob to locomotive wheels.

Jim

The board in your photo appears to be a lighting board, not a decoder.  I base this on seeing no active components such as integrated circuits on the board.  What I do see is a bunch of resistors and diodes which are characteristic of lighting boards.  The two large items that look like 1/2 watt resistors are most likely choke coils (inductors.)  You can confirm this by seeing if the board is marked L1, L2 etc. where they are mounted.  If they are electrically in series with the motor, this would also be confirmation.  The capacitors are surface mount ones right below the coils in your photo.  Above the coils are two clips.  These are the same as the two clips in Rich's first photo.  They are designed to be removed and the wires from a decoder soldered into the holes in their place.  I expect that the numbers correspond to the pin numbers on a decoder with 8 pin plug.  If you decide to install a decoder, just ask and one of us can give you a list relating pin numbers to standard wire colours.

I understand you bought this locomotive in good faith believing that it had a decoder on board.  Looking at your photograph of the board, I could believe that the seller sold it in good faith believing that the board was a decoder.  I suggest you contact the seller, refer him to this thread, and then try to come up with some reasonable agreement.

Jim

Are you trying to make two concentric ovals with the tracks spaced 2-3/8" center-to-center?  This would require that the curves of the outside oval be 2-3/8" larger in radius than the curves of the inside oval.  A quick check of Bachmann's radii shows no curves that fit the bill.

You can come very close by using the same radius for both inside and outside tracks but adding a pair of 2-1/4" straight sections at each end of the outside oval.  E-Z Track will bend enough to put a cross-over in each side of such ovals if the ovals have a few straight sections on each side.  To make up the difference, the tracks have to be moved over only 1/16" each.

Others may have better solutions.

Jim

The term "DCC ready" means "designed in some way to make installing a decoder easier."  It does NOT mean that there is a decoder in the locomotive.  So first question, have you installed decoders in these locomotives or were you running them on dc (address 00)?  If you have installed decoders in them, what brand of decoders did you use?  If the decoders were other than Bachmann decoders, did you clip the capacitors in the locomotives before installing them?  These capacitors can cause the problem you describe if left in place when an ultrasonic (silent) decoder is installed.  The capacitors draw a lot of power from the decoder at the high frequencies that ultrasonic decoders use to drive motors.  The extra load on the decoder can cause it to intermittently go into thermal shutdown to protect itself.

Having to clear the slots in your Digitrax system reflects bad operating procedure, namely failure to set the speed to zero (not just stop) and dispatching it out of the system when removing a locomotive from the track.  Depending on how you do it, clearing the slots can also remove all of the consisting information from the system.  If that were the case, then only the lead locomotive in your consist would still be running after clearing the slots.  To run the other locomotive, you would have to reacquire it under its own address.  That assumes the locomotives have decoders and you used universal consisting.  If they have no decoders and you were running them consisted on address 00, this would be a basic consist and would not be affected by slot clearing.

Jim 

Do you have the walkaround throttles for your Command 2000 or just the base unit?  If you have the walkarounds, you might consider installing a modular telephone jack or two along side each of your panels.  Then you would be able to unplug your throttle(s) and move to the next panel as you train runs from one section of your layout to the next.  At the next panel, you would plug back in and regain control of your train(s.)  I am not reccommending the Command 2000 as your ultimate system but you may want to use it while building your layout.

The E-Z Command has much the same limitations as the Command 2000 in terms of programming.  The basic unit uses one throttle which can be quickly and easily switched from locomotive to locomotive to allow running several trains at once.  An add on throttle unit can be used much like the Command 2000 walk around throttles.

The more comprehensive Dynamis system does much more in the way of programming and uses a wireless walkaround throttle.  The Dynamis walkaround throttle communicates via an infrared beam, much like the remote control for a TV set.  And like the TV remote control, must have a clear line-of-sight to the Dynamis base unit.

As Rich suggested, spend some time reading about the various systems to figure out which is best for you.

Jim (another ex user of Command 2000)

Aligning the wheels is only part of the problem.  Keeping them aligned is the other part.  I have a similar locomotive stored unserviceable because of split hubs allowing the wheels on one side to turn relative to the wheels on the other side.  I have fixed these and their Lionel predecessors by fitting the hubs with custom made sections of tubing to hold the axles tight.  Before the axles started slipping, it ran very nicely and if I can get to to run as well again, I plan to install a decoder.  I like to use decoders with back emf motor control in steam locomotives for the best in smooth starts and low speed operation because I enjoy seeing all the valve gear working.

I agree with Doneldon that there were some pretty awful locomotives on the market 20 years ago.  But there were some very good ones as well.  I have some of the original Atlas/Kato RS-3's that are fast approaching 30 years of age and as far as I am concerned, they run as well as anything produced today.  I also have two GP-38's on my roster, even though they are too new for my layout.  Both were purchased about 20 years ago.  One is plastic, the other is brass.  The plastic one will run circles around the brass one when it comes to performance.  But a comparison of details is also revealing.  The plastic one has more and finer details than the brass one.  The brass one I would definitely put in with the 20 year old stuff Doneldon wrote about.  In fact, it probably contains technology that was outdated 20 years ago.  The plastic one was built with the leading edge technology of its time, technology that is still good technology today.

So where does your Niagara fit in?  If it is like mine, it is basically the old Lionel body with an updated mechanism.  It does not have all the details we have some to expect today but it is still a good looking locomotive.  Mechanically, it has a can motor with a large worm gear that also serves as a flywheel.  I won't say that it runs as well as my RS-3's but it runs far better than the train set locomotives of 20 years ago.  Bottom line, I look forward to getting mine back on the road, the railroad that is.  Once you have yours back on its wheels, you can make your own assessment as to whether or not it merits a decoder.

Jim

p.s. to rogertra

It was similar "Botchmann era" Bachmann Plus locomotives that allowed a group of us to meet our contractual obligations with the local museum when we set up a model railroad 20 years ago.  We agreed to provide a railroad that would run through a set routine any time a member of the public pushed a button to start it.  The first locomotives we ran wore out in less than 1000 runs.  At 20,000 locomotive runs per year, we faced a financial disaster.  Enter the Bachmann Plus 2-8-0 locomotives with their shells from the sidewinder days and their new, can motor mechanisms.  Now we were looking at 50,000 runs per locomotive and financial solvency.  My Northern and presumably Robert's Niagara (same locomotive, different name) are also Bachmann Plus locomotives with the same new, rugged mechanism.  You may call the era whatever you like.  But in my opinion, they were already in the "Bettermann Era" and have been getting better and better ever since.          

You might get some answers on the large scale board here on the Bachmann site but you would probably do better over at the Aristo-Craft website.  There was a Delton 2-8-0  C-16 that was reissued by Aristo-Craft in 1998 or so.  Your F1A's and F1B could also be Aristo-Craft.  What make and model of transmitters and receivers do you have?  Aristo-Craft made their "Train Engineer" under their own name and now make them under the name "Crest."  They made several different models of Train Engineer over the years.  If this in the brand of your radio equipment, Aristo-Craft would be the best place to look for instructions.

The Aristo-Craft website can be reached by clicking on this link:

http://www.aristocraft.com/

On the left side of that page, look for a button labelled "Technical Support" and click on that.

Jim

sjackobs, you just described how ignition coils fire spark plugs in cars.  When a current passing through a coil is interrupted, the magnetic field in the coil collapses, causing a high voltage to be generated.  With the track shorted at the connector, there was undoubtedly a large current flowing through the transformer in your power pack.  When the short cleared, the inductive kick of the transformer was applied across the rails.  Most likely this kick or spike exceeded the about 30 volt maximum voltage of the decoder and something in it failed.  So far I agree with Rich.  And I too think the first component that probably failed was a diode.  But not from excess current.  More likely its reverse voltage rating was exceeded and it shorted out internally.  This would account for the overheating when you reapplied power.  With a shorted diode, the microcontroller in your decoder would be powered by ac which would addle its innards within a few milliseconds.  Without a working microcontroller, your decoder would be brain dead.

Jim

Sounds like your batteries are dying.  Try a set of new ones.

Jim

Quote from: darthraven on February 17, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
What frequency does the controller work on?

Around 300 to 400 teraherz.  This is in the near infrared portion of the spectrum.

Jim

Most (all?) manufactured crossings have the east-west route insulated from the north-south route.  To do this, they use plastic in all four frogs.   Hand laid, all metal ones have to be gapped both inside the crossing and outside the crossing to prevent shorting.  They then require switching with either a toggle switch or an auto reverse module to set which route is live.  You can check the internal connections of a crossing with a low cost meter.

Having said that, using dc on one route and DCC on the other route could lead to some undesirable results.  I would expect no problems as long as nothing derailed on the crossing.  But in case of a derailment, you might destroy a decoder from over voltage or you might damage either the DCC command station/booster or the dc power pack. Burning up a decoder is not a major loss in these days of low cost decoders as long as you can replace it yourself.  Damage to the command station, booster or power pack is generally more serious (and expensive.)  At the very least, isolate both routes through the crossing by gapping all rails, eight in total.  Then feed the power to the respective routes through small, fast blow fuses (1/2 amp or 1 amp.)  Make sure there are no connections between the command station/booster and the power pack, even accidental ones.  I would not even use the ac output of the power pack to operate remote control turnouts on the DCC powered track.  And if at all possible, use a 90 degree crossing to minimize the chance of a derailment in the first place.

---

Quote from: phillyreading on February 15, 2012, 05:55:01 PM
If anyone would make a crossover track like what you want, the rails that crossover would have to be insulated from each other electrically. It would take some fancy work to make it useable, if you were to custom build it yourself. At the center the track pieces would have to be seperated from each other electrically, some kind of plastic and then powered seperately in between on the center piece.
Lee F.

Lee, I suspect you are confusing a crossing with a crossover.  A crossover allows a train to move from one track to another, parallel track.  A crossing, also known as a "diamond," allows one track to cross another but does not allow a train to move from one track to the other.  It would indeed be difficult or maybe impossible to build a crossover from both dc and DCC at the same time.

Jim

Sorry, Ray.  I tried to keep the term "bit number" out of the discussions because Lenz/Bachmann number the bits from 1 to 8 while the rest of the world number them from 0 to 7.  Just to make matters worse, the wacky wizards number the bits from right to left even though just about everything else in the world is numbered from left to right.  Strange people, these electronics geeks and computer nerds.  And I are one of them.

Okay, I have given my head a good shake, and the bit numbers and binary values are temporarily gone.  So how do we figure out what we need to put into CV 29 to make the decoder do what we want it to do?  The easiest way is to refer to a look up table such as the one on page 34 at this link:

http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/Decoder_Manual.pdf

There are five things you have to decide:

(1) do you want to use 14 speed steps or 28/128 speed steps?
(2) do you want to use a speed table?
(3) do you want analog mode (dc) turned on or off?
(4) which way do you want to operate the locomotive, forward or reverse?
(5) do you want to use a 2 digit or a 4 digit address?

The number you put into CV29 depends on all five of these things.  Depending on which combination of these things you want, the number you put into CV29 can be any one of 32 possible numbers.  Sixteen of these numbers will turn dc mode on.   The other 16 numbers will turn dc mode off.  You find the number you have to put into CV29 by looking in the left column next to the combination of things you want.  (Ignore the numbers with an X in front of them.)

A very common combination is 18/128 speed steps, no speed table, dc mode on, forward operation and 2 digit address.  Looking at the chart, this gives 006.  So to get that combination, you put a 6 into CV29.

An equally common combination is 18/128 speed steps, no speed table, dc mode on, forward operation and 4 digit address.  Again looking at the chart, this combination gives 038.  So we would put 38 into CV29. 

It does not matter what brand of decoders you are using, that chart still works.

The bottom line is that there is no one number that you put into CV29 to turn dc mode on.  But 6 and 38 are probably the most common, the difference between them being whether you want to use a 2 digit address or a 4 digit address.  If the locomotive were a diesel that you wanted to run backwards in a consist, the corresponding numbers would be 7 and 39.  The four numbers, 6, 38, 7 and 39 will cover 90% of the cases where you want dc mode turned on.

Jim  (now gathering up those bits, bytes and geeky numbers that are scattered about the room.)

On a forum such as this one, there is always a bit of a problem with not knowing how much each poster knows or what his background and experience are.  Nor do we know who the other 100 or so readers of the thread are or what their backgrounds are.  So sometimes extra caution is warranted.  It did not help in this case that the only wires mentioned in the first two posts on this thread were the blue, white and yellow ones.  I would hate to see anyone ruin a perfectly good decoder by following advice "as written" instead of "as meant."

Many of the long time posters here will remember the case of the young fellow who burned out five decoders in a row in an Athearn locomotive.  He insisted that he had isolated the motor and in fact he had isolated it by removing it and taping the frame under it.  But he "un-isolated"  the motor when he replaced the connecting bar across the top of the motor in order to make the headlight work.  It was another case of simple misunderstanding where we all believed he understood what he was doing but it probably resulted in the poor fellow blowing his model railroading budget for the next couple of months.

Bottom line, don't feel like someone is stomping on you just because he adds a bit of clarification.  We all want to help those who ask for our help by giving them the best help we possibly can.  I think most of us who offer help do so because we want others to be able to share a hobby that has given us a great deal of pleasure.  And if it takes more than one explanation to get the ideas across, then it is great that there are many people willing to make those explanations.

Jim

DC conversion on or off is a little more complicated than a single number.  CV29 can have any value from 0 to 255.  But the value is always the sum of certain numbers, namely 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 128.  A value of 6, for example, can only be made of a 4 plus a 2.  Likewise a value of 34 can only be made from a 32 plus a 2.

So what do these numbers mean?

1 = reversed normal direction.  Otherwise, front is forward.

2 = forward light control.  For most applications, it will be present.

4 = dc conversion enabled.  Otherwise, DCC only.

8 = bidirectional communications (rarely used).

16 = use speed table.  Otherwise, use Vmax, Vmin and Vmid

32 = four digit addressing.  Otherwise, two digit addressing.

64 = not used at this time

128 = auxiliary decoder.  Otherwise, normal decoder.

So, if CV 29 has a value of 6, it must be made up of 2 plus 4.  The 2 is always there.  The 4 means the locomotive can run on dc as well as DCC.

A value of 3 in CV29 is 2 plus 1.  Again, the 2 is always there and the 1 means the locomotive operates backwards (a command to run it forward will instead run it backward.)  But note that there is no 4 this time.  This means this locomotive is programmed to ignore dc and will only run on DCC.

Give it a try.  What would a value of 51 in CV29 mean?  The answer is down below.

You can also use these numbers the other way around to come up with a value for CV29.  For example, if you wanted 4 digit addressing and no conversion to dc, you would select 2 (because it is always on,) plus 32 (to get 4 digit addressing.)  Added together would give you 34, the value you would program into CV29.

If you don't like this method of finding the value for CV29, print out the table on page 34 of this decoder manual:
http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/Decoder_Manual.pdf

Jim

Answer to the question:  if you said the locomotive was using a 4 digit address and running reverse normal and using a speed table, you would be right on the money.  Bonus points if you added that it was running only on DCC.

Quote from: Rangerover1944 on February 13, 2012, 02:21:48 PM
...  I would solder the wires together and see what happens when you push the light button on you throttle ...

Solder the yellow and/or white wire to the blue wire and what will happen when you push the light button on your throttle is that the lighting output(s) of your decoder will be instantly destroyed.

Resetting the decoder makes sense.  Reset for this decoder may or may not be 08 into CV08 - check the literature that came with it.  Once reset, you can address it at address 03 with some confidence that it will received the digital commands.

Jim