Bachmann Online Forum

Hi Everyone,
I've wound up with a ton of 1/8" scrap masonite and was wondering if it could be used to make structures for my HO layout.  When I search the internet for advice on this topic, I find that most model railroaders use masonite for roadbeds or large backdrops, but no one seems to use it for structures.

Is this a bad idea?  Given the fact that I already have this stuff, I don't have worry about cost issues, only whether or not making buildings out of it is worthwhile.  Some of the concerns voiced on the sites I found had to do with humidity and how it can make masonite warp.  But for small HO structures, it doesn't seem as though warping could be much of a problem - the pieces will all be small and everything will be tacked (with brads) or glued tight to interior wood bracing. 

I've experimented with various kinds of spray paint I have around here.  The masonite holds up with Rustoleum and model enamel, no sign of warping that is, and the "shiny" side takes the paint very well.

I've even been able to cobble up a nice looking peaked roof with it.  I start with a rectangular piece of masonite a little longer than the house and a little wider than twice each half of the roof (for overhang).  Then, using my table saw, I cut a narrow groove (one pass with the blade) the length of the roof, underneath where the peak will be.  This takes a little practice because the groove has to be just the right depth.  Too deep saws the roof in half, argh, and too shallow makes the peak fold look ragged.

Anyway, once the groove is cut, the masonite is carefully folded - not in half, just to the angle of the roof's peak.  The seam on the outside doesn't look bad at all provided the groove was not cut too shallow.  Then I place the roof on two wooden protoype peaks and spray paint it in the folded position. 

This makes the paint look uniform across the peak, but it also looks unnatural to have a perfectly straight-edged peak like that.  So, taking a cue from the folks who simulate shingled finishes using overlapping strips of painted tissue paper, I'm experimenting with a single strip of paper tape along the peak, painted over after it's glued in place.  It hasn't set up yet but with any luck it'll look at least something like a row of peak ridge material of some kind. 

Well, obviously I'm still in the experimental stages of using masonite this way.  Has anyone else used it to make structures, and if so, how have they held up over time?

Thanks to all for taking the time to read this,
Big Al Mintaka

"I believe a leaf of grass
is no less than the journey-work of the stars."
--Walt Whitman

Al - While I have never used Masonite for structures; I don't see why one couldn't use the product. The assumption is that you are using internal bracing to prevent warping and separation at the joints. Outside of wood and plastic, my favorite medium in structure construction is foamcore. Foamcore is very strong for its weight, inexpensive, can be had in numerous colors, usually easily obtained at numerous craft stores, and can be joined via a hot glue gun. Prior to assembling wall sections, I laminate the foamcore with either stripwood, styrene, or paper laminates from Paper Creek Models. At the very least foamcore structures can be used as 'fill in' buildings - to represent the final structure to be constructed from other materials.

Let us know how the Masonite worked out for you.

Ray

I will also say that masonite would make a good substrate for a model.   It probably isn't used because of cost and weight and difficulty cutting.
Foamcore is used mostly as it is lighter and easy to cut and assemble.
Definitely look at the paper overlays, such as Clever Models, as these give a truly realistic finish, no painting required. http://www.clevermodels.net/index.htm (http://www.clevermodels.net/index.htm)

Thanks Dave - Clever Models deserves a mention as they are rapidly becoming my favorite source of printed overlays. It is amazing what one can do with their excellent products, some light weathering, and an overspray of Dulcoat. BTW: I have found using a glue stick to be the best way of securing the overlay to the base foamcore. Glue sticks have a very low moisture content and seem to last extremely well.

Ray

Glue sticks; good idea Ray.   I'll have to try that on the next paper model.   I was using double sided tape but that can be awkward and repositioning is difficult at best.

  I don't think you would have any trouble with warping, but you will have A LOT of trouble cutting window & door openings.  Use a small carbide cutter in a motor tool ( I use a B&D rather than Dremel...more amperage for less cost) & finish up with a small file to square the corners up.
  I realize you already have the Masonite, but styrene doesn't cost much for the small amount you need for an HO structure.  You could use the masonite for the roof & any other parts that don't require cutouts.    jerry

Thanks to all for the useful advice! 

jerryl's point about cutouts is well taken.  The table and miter saws I have (courtesy my Dad, a real Renaissance jack of all trades) are great for cutting shapes with masonite, but cutouts are another matter.  I have to use a utility or hobby knife/saw for that sort of work, and it's tough to get square, straight edges (and keep from severing arteries at the same time).

Already I can see that the masonite is going to make a good underlying structure but that some kind of outer layerings are going to be needed both for realistic looks and to cover the numerous cutout gaffes.

I'm still fooling around with that idea of layering toilet paper, paper tape, etc for shingle effects.  The paper tape used for bandages sets up very well after being painted over but has serrated, uneven edges.  Cutting the stuff lengthwise to true it up and make straight edges would be a real chore.  Too bad, because it makes a great roof peak cap/hinge.

There are two other experiments waiting to set up.  One uses regular masking tape for the peak cap, the other uses freezer tape.  So far the freezer tape looks like the better bet because it absorbs the paint, which will help it adhere to the masonite better.  Also the adhesive on freezer tape is pretty robust stuff, formulated as it is for temperature extremes.  The masking tape looks great painted but I have doubts about how well it will stay stuck to the masonite.

Printed overlays with glue stick or other adhesion is a great idea too.  I have a color laserjet here that I can use to create ad-hoc patterns of any kind, with fused toner that won't behave badly if any moisture is involved in the gluing/painting process.  This printer, a LexMark C510, is also good with a wide range of paper types so I can experiment with different materials to see what works best when glued on masonite.  "Clever Models" - I'll make a note of that, thanks Ray and mabloodhound (latter for the link).

With all this experimenting going on, it's getting hard to see the proverbial forest through the trees.  As a possibly unrelated side note, I also collect old building sets - American Plastic Bricks, Lincoln Logs (redwood trestles coming up!), Girder and Panel, etc.  This masonite is turning out to be a great roofing and flooring material for those applications as well.  In particular, the cardstock roofs that came with the old plastic bricks sets hasn't held up well over time, and painted/textured masonite is the perfect substitute.

The old Girder and Panel/Bridge and Turnpike truss bridges with masonite beds look fantastic.  Those Kenner sets are HO scale too, real 1:87.  Bridge Street Toys (http://www.bridgestreettoys.com/index.html) is selling recast sets/parts now.

And now I've found that for flat roofs, painted masonite squares with the textured sides up are perfect.  Never mind that some of those pits are almost a foot deep in HO scale - it looks great.

Progress marches on.  I'm not even done with the table yet.  I expect that I'll soon be posting questions about inverted cone LED lighting for those Girder and Panel structures which I will be using in the layout. 

I'll keep you all posted on developments with the masonite!

Thanks once again to all for the helpful advice,
Big Al Mintaka

"I believe a leaf of grass
is no less than the journey-work of the stars."
--Walt Whitman

I have been using a lot of 1/8" Baltic Birch plywood in 0-scale buildings and use a technique for cutting window and door openings that might work with Masonite.  It requires only 3 tools - a 1/8" drill, a coping saw and a file.  A hole drilled in each corner makes starting and turning the saw easier and the file is to clean up the hole after coping it.

Jim

Having read all the previous posts; I still cannot see the advantage of Masonite (or furniture-grade birch Jim) over foamcore. Window openings are cut out using your trusty hobby knife. Wall/roof sections are glued together with a low temperature hot glue gun (an oxymoron if there ever was one). Reinforcing is done with scrap pieces of foamcore - and the whole shebang can be laminated with any number of the excellent paper products on the market today.

Sorry guys...but using Masonite [et. al.] seems like a government 'make work' project.

Just my opinion...if you don't like that one; I have hundreds more to share,
Ray

His main advantage was that he had lots of Masonite, while buying huge amounts of foamcore can add up in a hurry.

Jim's suggestion about the coping saw is a good one. If you have a lot of this stuff, you might look into investing in a scroll saw. They don't cost a ton of money, and take a lot of the tedium out of doing cutouts.

Another use for 1/8in masonite is bases for your plastic and foamcore buildings and structures. If you make the base a bit wider than the building, shrubbery can be attached to the base. Then it will move with the building if you decide to relocate it. This also allows those who must operate on the floor to dress up their buildings a bit, without having the trees fall over all the time.

Len

Whilst rereading this thread, Len's post stimulated a memory of a technique I used on the old Sweethaven Harbor layout. I wanted to have the ability to change structures, or eras, easily and came up with [what I refer to as] The Jigsaw Puzzle Building Base method (OK, OK...I didn't come up with the idea; but saw it somewhere).

In this method one determines the shape and size of a particular building site (for example a flour mill). The site should include all relevant structures or landscaping that are germane to that structure (ex. parking lots, loading platforms, driveways, support structures). Keep in mind that some building sites may require an odd-shaped 'lot'. You then cut out a template (I to use foamcore) and transfer from this template to either a piece of Masonite, thin plywood, styrene, or foamcore base (put the template in a safe place for reuse in the future). Your structure (in this example a flour mill) is affixed to the base and the whole lot is decorated in an appropriate manner. Lighting can be installed and connected to an embedded connector in the layout surface.

Should you desire to change the structure at that location you simply pick up the base, detach any lighting leads, and replace it with another structure secured to its own base that is the same shape and size as the flour mill's base. With appropriate scenery, it is extremely difficult to tell that a building/base is removeable. Check out this link to get an idea of what I mean:


BTW: Unrelated to the structure bases discussed above; thin Masonite will sag with time and should be supported. Al, if you are 'roofing' a large expanse you need to take this into consideration.

Regarding cutting out window/doors and those pesky 90 degree corners: Micro Mark offers a 90 degree Corner Punch that ain't cheap...but works great! The punch is Item # 81652 (5/16") or # 82395 (3/16") and is priced [hold onto your collective hats] $24.95 and $23.95...good Holiday gift to ask for? I used one of these in my drill press and it worked great. The only problem was that the owner wanted it back.

Ray

The masonite should work just fine and there really isn't a concern with warping on such small pieces as HO structures.  So...he has free materials and no need for interior reinforcement.  Sounds like a good deal to me!

Hi Everyone,
I've been playing with Masonite and a few other materials and thought I'd post a followup.  Masonite is working very well for flat surfaces, not so well for cutouts as some of the posters predicted.  It's great for roofs of all kinds.

Right away I ran into a problem with the weight of Masonite.  I have a large structure with a square heliport on the roof.  It's 18" on each side.  To save on building materials (Kenner's Girder & Panel) I made the tower underneath the heliport narrower than the top.  The total height is 41".  For the materials typically used in Girder & Panel buildings, it's a very solid structure.

However when I plopped the 18" sq Masonite roof on top, the weight of the roof made the structure unstable - as in wicked top-heavy.

So now I'm experimenting with various kinds of foam to serve as a lightweight roof.  I bought some fan-fold foam 3/8" thick and practiced my nonexistent cutting skills until I got the right shape without beveled edges.

I learned the stupid way that spray enamel isn't kind to foam.  I knew beforehand that gasoline dissolves styrofoam but didn't make the connection with some of the solvents in spray enamel.

So I cut another roof and am now painting with spray acrylic - the Tamiya stuff.  The first coat of primer didn't dissolve the roof, so it's a go so far.

But this raised another question with regard to structural materials, finishing methods, painting, etc.  As I was spraying the acrylic on the roof, I started to get the distinct impression that this stuff is really, really bad for you.  Is that the case?  It's a lot more foul smelling than enamel, that's for sure. 

Assuming I survive, I have decal paper for my color laserjet and will experiment with decals for landing patterns on the roof.  That's a ways down the road.

One other foam I may try soon is foam backing board used in framing prints.  I have a few squares of it and it's really nice stuff.  It's also extremely expensive.  I'm resisting using it unless the fan-fold stuff turns out to be just unworkable.

The long way around is done and the question that appeared was: is acrylic bad stuff healthwise?  The writing on the can is all in Japanese chars so I can't tell what the warnings are, if any. 

Thanks to all for taking the time to read this and have a good one,

Big Al Mintaka

Al - If I may repeat myself: Foamcore makes a much better building material than Masonite (hardboard). Hobby Lobby carries nice large sheets of foamcore (20"x 30"); and sells them for $1.99 each. You can easily build a medium sized (in HO) structure with one sheet. The only drawback is that Hobby Lobby only carries this product in white (it can be had elsewhere in a variety of colors). If you require larger sheets, you local sign shop can get it in 4'x 8' panels...possibly larger).

In summary, foamcore is cheap and easy to work with. You have already 'experimented' with hardboard...why continue down a path laced with diminishing returns? The only application I have found foamcore lacking is as transfer table material. The foamcore is much too light...5 mm birch plywood is much better (with the addition of automobile wheel weights...even better).

Get a piece of foamcore - a low temperature hot glue gun - and experiment. With the application of printed paper transfers, and weathering, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Ray

So, Ray, how long have you had stock in the foamcore company? Just kidding but I agree with you about foamcore over masonite.

Rather than cut out for the windows, couldn't the masonite be assembled in sections? You could do a full size panel then glue two pieces next to it, leaving space for the window? The panels could be reinforced from the backside with masonite strips. 

Incidentally, I would suggest that masonite not be used for roadbed.  It just is a bad idea.

Oh - I forgot - Merry Christmas to all out there. I hope Santa Claus is good to everyone!

Quote from: CNE Runner on December 24, 2009, 11:58:03 AM
Al - If I may repeat myself: Foamcore makes a much better building material than Masonite (hardboard). Hobby Lobby carries nice large sheets of foamcore (20"x 30"); and sells them for $1.99 each. You can easily build a medium sized (in HO) structure with one sheet. The only drawback is that Hobby Lobby only carries this product in white (it can be had elsewhere in a variety of colors). If you require larger sheets, you local sign shop can get it in 4'x 8' panels...possibly larger).

In summary, foamcore is cheap and easy to work with. You have already 'experimented' with hardboard...why continue down a path laced with diminishing returns? The only application I have found foamcore lacking is as transfer table material. The foamcore is much too light...5 mm birch plywood is much better (with the addition of automobile wheel weights...even better).

Get a piece of foamcore - a low temperature hot glue gun - and experiment. With the application of printed paper transfers, and weathering, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Ray

Hi Ray,
As I noted,

"So now I'm experimenting with various kinds of foam to serve as a lightweight roof.  I bought some fan-fold foam 3/8" thick and practiced my nonexistent cutting skills until I got the right shape without beveled edges."

The fan-fold foam I bought is the same material as foamcore.  Sorry, I should have been more explicit about what that stuff is.  That's what I'm experimenting with when using the acrylics.

The local hobby shop sells foamcore in sheets that are too small, and wants ridiculously high prices for larger sheets.  Thus I appreciate your reference to the Hobby Lobby.  If they have a website, I'll find it.

White doesn't bother me so much.  I can prime and paint whatever colors I need to get the job done.  The only limiting factor has been cost around here, except for that fan-fold stuff. 

The problem with the fan-fold foam, as I'm now finding out, is that there are a lot of surface imperfections that need to be treated before painting.  They weren't really obvious until after the first coat of acrylic primer last night.  There are numerous pinholes (prob from handling equipment) and a very slight rippling that is easily seen with the primer.  I've spackled a second sheet and will be sanding that to see if I can get a flat surface.

But it's a lot of work just for a flat surface.  I will look into that foamcore at Hobby Lobby, thanks again for the reference.

Just a note here: I wouldn't be too hasty with calling Masonite a "dimishing returns" venture.  It's still great for flat surfaces with no cutouts, and excellent as roadbeds on raised track, highways, and bridges.  For printed transfers it's every bit as good as any other flat material that can be glued.  The two surfaces it already has - gloss and matte - are already prepped to go for whatever applications require those finishes.  The matte side is particularly good for flat tar roofing and rural roadbeds.

In addition, as I pointed out in my very first post, I have a ton of this stuff and it's all free.  It's far from being "diminishing returns" in all those respects.  If anything, what I've learned so far only limits it in those two categeries I happen to need for my application: small cutouts and weight (for large roof spans).

That's about the listing of end results so far.  What I still don't know is whether the acrylic paint I've been having to use with these foam products is dangerous - especially the sprays, which are really synthetic lacquers and stink to high bull orifice, much more than enamel sprays.  I have a big unfinished basement I can evacuate after I'm done working until the vapors settle but no praying booth, and this time of year no decent ventilation.

Sorry to ramble.  To echo Woody, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Chanukah, Happy Kwanzaa, Lecherous Saturnalia (that one's mine), and Joyous Etc too all!

Big Al Mintaka

Masonite would work great for the base for building.

Al - I hear you...lots of hardboard that was free. RAM has a great idea of using hardboard for structure bases. I once used foamcore for this purpose (I didn't have any hardboard) and had limited success. You can also use up a lot of hardboard with fascias...the stuff does come in handy.

Happy/Merry/Joyful holidays to all (including our Greco-Roman pagan friends),

Ray

Hey All,
If anyone's still keeping an eye on this thread, I've been getting continuously better results as I experiment with different roofing materials. 

Masonite is still great for bases and walls but it weighs a little too much for the large flat roofs and decks I want to build. 

I used art shop foam board (foam core between two sheets of acid-free cardstock).  It can take any kind of spray paint I've been throwing at it: Rustoleum, Krylon, Krylon Fusion (supposedly special for plastics).    Enamel like Rustoleum that would normally eat right through foam core that wasn't protected somehow, gives a nice coat of paint on the cardstock without leaking through to erode the foam inside.  There is some very minor scoring of the foam at the edges between the cardstock sheets but nothing really serious if the roof is going to have some sort of edging.  The drawback with this stuff is cost.  It's big bucks.

Also I finally found an outfit that sells high-impact styrene sheets in sizes I can use.  It turns out that styrene sheeting 0.03" thick is pretty much the same material used in these Girder and Panel/Bridge and Turnpike sets for wall/roof panels and roadways.  This styrene is perfect for flat roofs, interior floors, and decking.  Also I can cut holes at the edges for the anchoring beams using a hand-held paper cutter.  The right size for making ring binder holes works fine.  I haven't had to cut any holes away from the edges yet but I'm not worried about that. 

This stuff takes Rustoleum and Krylon with no trouble.  If the Rustoleum is compromising the styrene somehow I sure can't see it. 

Here's the place that sells the plastic sheets in affordable lots of flat stock and larger amounts on rolls.  I bought 25 sheets of the High Impact Polystyrene 0.03" 18" X 24" flat stock/white.  There's no clear; the other color available is black.  I chose white because I figured it would be easier to paint.

http://www.professionalplastics.com

Now I'm sure those of you who've done a lot of work with plastic sheeting have better ideas about the material.  I chose this particular stuff based on a combo of cost and similarity to the material used in the Kenner sets.  These guys sell all kinds of other plastics in sheets, rolls, and rods.  I have no idea of tradeoffs between the types yet, for example why this high-impact styrene is any better than polypropylene for what I'm doing.

Krylon gray primer on this styrene sheeting is the perfect color and material for what I want.  The only problem is that the primer is easily marked in handling and so will require some kind of clear-coating or sealing.  Or, gray Krylon Fusion finish paint that's about the same color.

Anyway that's where the flat roof (and now flooring and decking) effort is at.  I have a long and expensive learning curve.  Here's hoping I'm finally converging on a solution.

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka

I was surprised to see this thread still active and assumed Alan hit on a popular theme. My Monks' Island Brewery is just about ready for building (and background flats) construction - so I am experimenting with some new foamboard techniques. While in Hobby Lobby a couple of weeks ago, I came across a line of products that are designed for crafting with foamboard. The line, of tools, is produced by Logan Graphic Products of Wauconda, IL and is marketed under the FoamWerks brand. Essentially there are 4 or 5 products that make cutting foamboard much easier.

Out of the available products I have purchased the cutting guide, straight cutter, V-groove cutter, and rabbet cutter. In addition to my purchases the company offers a bevel cutter, a freestyle cutter, a large hole cutter, and several sizes of small hole cutters. WARNING: these cutters are expensive! I used the 40% off coupon to bring their prices more in line with my budget.

So far I have used the straight cutter, cutting guide, and V-groove cutter with success. The V-groove cutter will enable me to make all the walls of a small/medium structure out of one continuous piece of foamboard. The rabbet cutter will make the final joint almost invisible. Check out a video clip on these products at:
My first task will be to construct a repair shed for the layout...should be interesting since I have little experience in the 'crafting world'.

Ray

Quote from: CNE Runner on January 13, 2010, 10:17:31 AM
...
Out of the available products I have purchased the cutting guide, straight cutter, V-groove cutter, and rabbet cutter. In addition to my purchases the company offers a bevel cutter, a freestyle cutter, a large hole cutter, and several sizes of small hole cutters. WARNING: these cutters are expensive! I used the 40% off coupon to bring their prices more in line with my budget.
...

Hi Ray,
You're right, those things are pricey.  Where'd you get that coupon?  I have an Amazon $25.00 gift certificate that would buy only one of the cheaper cutters, going by Amazon prices that is.  The local retailers listed on the Foamwerks page don't list the cutters in their online stores, which probably means they'd have to order them. 

At the local hobby shop they sell the Woodland Scenics hot-wire cutter with a bow guide accessory that makes it look like a coping saw.  As usual with anything made by Woodland Scenics, it's priced high, almost 50 bucks for the cutter and bow. 

At these prices for the Foamwerks and Woodland Scenics cutters, looks like I'll be roughing it for a while with whatever I have on hand.

For foam I've been using a utility knife for straight cuts.  It works OK as long as the blade is sharp.  Otherwise it catches and drags crud along, ruining the cut.  The hassle with even a sharp blade is trying not to get a bevel cut on a thick piece of foam.

That high-impact styrene, on the other hand, cuts very easily with a pair of paper scissors.  I draw a square line, then very carefully cut along it with the scissors.  This works better than a utility blade or hobby knife.  Either of those take several passes to get through even 0.03" of the stuff.  It's hard to hold the line on succeeding cuts, resulting in an uneven edge. 

For legal size sheets or smaller, I use an old-fashioned office paper cutter.

If I have the shed business right, this is an outlying structure you're going to build for your train setup?  Have you looked into the prefabs, wood or metal?

"Progress marches on".

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka

Bein' a tr-r-rue Scotsman wi' German roots, to boot, I too am just a bit on the thr-r-rifty side and tend to try to waste nothin', especially if is left over or free!

Using 1/8" Masonite is unwieldy at best and the tendency to leave ragged edges is a problem when making cutouts but there is a trick I learned from my wonderful HS industrial arts teacher: using masking tape on the surfaces helps reduce fraying of the edges on the rough side. Predrilling through the tape helps, too. Because the material s so fibrous, punching tends to leave ragged edges no matter how fine the cutting edge of the punch.

One thing that I've had success with in the area of cutouts is to install plastic frames from the smooth outside. That way, frayed edges aren't so much of a problem.

As far as painting is concerned, I clean the surface well with tack cloth then use a dull sealer. This seems to prepare the surface to hold whatever paint I want to use on the finished surface.

Keep on keepin' on, Lad! Don't let us try to convince you to scrap your leftover materials in favor of spendin' more than you want to!

Al - I have got to learn to read the threads I have contributed to more often! Sorry I missed your question. Hobby Lobby usually has a 40% off coupon every other week in the Huntsville Times. You can get your own coupon at www.hobbylobby.com under the In Store Specials section. Here is the drill: print out at least a couple of these coupons. When you go to the store, give one to your significant other - while you keep the other. This means you get 40% off TWO items! Huntsville, AL has two stores so we could (in theory) get four items at the reduced rate. Check the website each week for the coupon.

WARNING Will Rogers...some items are already on sale and are not eligible for the 40% coupon. I used the straight cutter and V-groove cutter and realized that they are harder to use than first anticipated. Please understand that I have little to no artistic skills (where is a crafter when you need them?). I think I will 'make' a couple of trial structures before attempting the one I will laminate and use on the layout. So far I still have all 10 fingers and most of my blood.

Ray

Hobby Lobby usually has a 40% off coupon, you can also go the their web page and print them.