Doneldon:

I started this layout a couple of months ago. The layout before this one was taken down some 60 years ago. To say I'm new to today's model railroading is an understatement. I learned from this Bachmann purchase what I wanted and what I did not want. I understand there is a need for bottom end products. I just did not realize the differences until I had both a Bachmann trolley and a Spectrum trolley.

I actually picked the Bachmann PCC because it was a Los Angeles trolley (well, kind of, since the real ones were narrow gage) that brought back memories of riding the LA "J" cars as a kid with my mom. The Bowser upgrade will make it look right and run better and I am satisfied both with the results and the cost to me.

I have tried the Bachmann trolley, two Spectrum trolleys, one Con Cor trolley, and the Bowser conversion (which I assume is a measure of a complete Bowser trolley). Actually only the Bachmann was a disappointment and I have fixed that now.

LDBennett

I think Con Cor made it clear that it was not real but done by them as a experiment that could have been done but that probably was not. Did I read Con Cor wrong?

Some model railroaders do scale copies of reality where others make up a story and more or less follow it. I think the diesel powered PCC is a fantasy. Think about what it would take to build an actual real PCC electric trolley into a diesel electric trolley. How much seating would be lost to house the diesel electric conversion unit. I think it would not really be practical. The PCC car is not designed to have a diesel motor inside without some serious compromises, in my opinion.

I do not run an overhead power system for my little layout (that's the first break from reality). My layout is point to point and three of my four trolleys are the type that would only run in the forward direction (one pole and the driver station at the front). But I have to run them backwards on the return trip (that's the second break from reality). Most are not setup with the body of the trolley low enough and have a several scale feet for a potential person to climb  to enter the car (that's still another break from reality). It goes on forever with my layout and trolleys. It is after all (for me) about the trip not the destination when it comes to building this layout. Having a fantasy Diesel electric PCC car with no pole is just another break from reality. I like it!

On another note I got the Bowser conversion for my Backman PCC HO trolley. I ran the bare chassis on the track and it is very quiet, relatively smooth at slow speeds, and will lower the body on the chassis by what they say is a scale foot. That should make it look more natural. The lesson from the Bachmann (NOT Spectrum) PCC trolley is that Bachmann motive power is more toy like than model railroad like. I think I'll not be buying any more Bachmann motive power stuff. The Spectrum stuff they sell seems to be top notch. The price differential probably reflects that.

LDBennett

Desertdweller:

http://www.con-cor.com/PCCRailbus.html

for the history of the rail bus using the PCC body. But I suppose it is not real but only a possibility.

LDBennett

Well, the Con Cor diesel powered PCC trolley came today. It IS nicely made, runs smoothly, has minimal gear noise, and looks very good. The funny thing is it takes about twice the throttle setting of the small Bachmann power throttle to run at the same speed as any of the other three trolleys I have (two Spectrums and one basic Bachmann). It has extensive lighting and that may be the loss of power. Or maybe it is just the gear ratios. Anyway. That makes no difference to me.

I ordered the Bowser re-motor conversion for the Bachmann PCC. It does lower the body (or so they claim) by about a scale foot.

LDBennett

railtwister:

The Birney* and Peter Witt trollies, as sold by Bachmann, are actually Spectrum models. As such they are priced at more than twice the little Bachmann PCC trolley. I understand that it is unfair to compare them. The ConCor and Bowser are priced pretty close to the Spectrum trollies so the comparison is valid, I think.

As an aside, I think the Spectrum trolleys (Brill and Peter Witt) are made awesomely with the only "fly in the ointment" being the gear noise in the Peter Witt.

Anyway, along the lines of making the Bachmann PCC trolley lower and perhaps run better, I found that Bowser makes a drive/chassis conversion for it. It appears at first look that the body might be able to be lowered on the Bowser chassis. The drive part looks different than the Bachman setup with a drive shaft rather than a truck unit with a stuck on tiny motor. It appears you might also be able to add a flywheel to it too (I have a lathe and probably could make something up). Anyway I'm investigating it. There is nothing more rewarding to me that to "fix" something even though it may not make sense dollar wise. It may be the only way to get a PCC trolley that is powered correctly and has a more scale height.

Thanks for you comments.

LDBennett

*modified from Brill...Sorry about that. The Brill is indeed a Bachmann model and not a Spectrum model.

Thanks all for the comments. It inspired me to look into the Bachmann PCC.

I took the body  off (one screw!). And indeed it is no more than a toy. It has a tiny can motor with an enclosed gear train inside the powered truck, all as one unit. The powered truck is so tall that the body can not be dropped to where it belongs. Currently the bottom of the doors are about 1/2 inch above the top of the ties of the track. The body is one piece (unlike the Spectrum trolleys). The unpowered truck end of the trolley is very light compared to the rather heavy other end. There is no flywheel, either, as used in the spectrum trolleys.

So the bottom line is the body can not be dropped. I added some stick on auto wheel balance weights over the unpowered truck. It now runs smoother with less weaving and bouncing. I'll not be buying anymore Bachmann trains or trolleys if this is typical of their construction techniques. It was inexpensive compared to the really nice Spectrum trolleys, so you get what you pay for. I think the plastic Bowser PCC trolley, based on the internal pictures I've seen, is more like the Bachmann trolley than the Spectrum. I'll not buy one of those either. Now I am wondering how well made is the Con-Cor PCC Diesel powered trolley I just bought that gets delivered next Tuesday?

I'm not guessing at how well done the spectrum models are, as they both came with a detailed parts schematics . Also, I had to take the roofs off of each one to remove the DCC controller boards to replace them with the dummy plugs. I was impressed! They also run much smoother than the Bachmann PCC.

Now, how do I reduce the gear noise from the Spectrum Peter Witt trolley? If Dallee ever gets their "Traction Sounds" module on the market then maybe I can cover up the gear noise with authentic trolley sounds (it would be a stationary install).

LDBennett

ebtnut:

I am not ready for overhead or even DCC control.

Ready for Medicare? How about on it for five years already. I do remember the trolleys in the LA area and rode on them in the day: Yellow cars-J line, and Red Cars from Long Beach to Downtown Los Angleles. The last ride was probably 1955 but I did park in the dim lighting in a remote Red Car terminal with my then girlfriend in about 1962. We were oblivious to the trolleys. :-0   :-0

LDBennett

 ebtnut:

Thanks for the book tip. I found a new one for $25 at Amazon.com and ordered it.

LDBennett

Thanks guys.

i've reviewed the drawings on the Bachmann and Spectrum models and they seem well made and are a lot more complicated than I thought they would be. The Bowser PCC seems rudimentary compared to the others (the latest plastic version). Hopefully the Con-Cor will be at least as well made as the Spectrum. And I am not impressed by the Bachman PCC (as stated by J3a-614). It is more toy like. The Spectrum Peter Witt so far is the best but too bad about all the gear noise.

What is interesting is that there seem to be so few trolly manufacturers of trolleys from the mid part of the 20th Century.

Another thing that perplexes me is that Bowser gives instruction on lubing their trolly (because it comes without lube to avoid the grease melting and ruining the paint job during shipping). The Bachmann and Spectrum instruction never mention lubrication at all. Did I miss something? The gear noise on the Peter Witt is so loud I seriously doubt lubrication will lower the noise level. I also worry that the open gears will collect dust and debris off the layout tracks.

As a general observation after over 50 years away from the hobby, it surprises me that so many of the manufactures names are still around. Here is the way it was over 50 years ago for those that survived:

Bowser...awesome engine kits (had a Pacific by them that was awesome)
Athearn... rail car kits made of wood and tin with sides pre-painted
Atlas...flex track
Roundhouse...cast metal rail car kits with pre-painted sides
Bachmann...N gage trains from Europe, toys
Kadee....couplers
Marklin...European train sets, toys
Mantua...engine kits, a bit clunky
Walthers... detailed passenger car kits

LDBennett

 I have the following trollies, all from Bachmann's catalog:

Bachmann PCC
Bachman Spectrum Birney
Bachman Spectrum Peter Witt

Here are my observations when run on my DC powered little street car layout:

The Bachman PCC looks good but the body is really too high on the chassis and it looks too tall. It has only one powered truck. It runs "kind of" smoothly at low speeds, but not perfectly.

The Spectrum Birney has only one powered truck (DUH!). It runs smoothly but is upset by passing through the one Backmann switch on the mainline. It doesn't derail or anything. It just bounces around a tiny bit as it passes over the switch. It is not as quiet as the PCC with some gear noise.

The Spectrum Peter Witt has both trucks powered and runs smoothly at low speeds. It passes over the switch smoothly. It has gear noise, worse in forward than in reverse. I can actually hear it running from another room it is so loud being much louder than the Birney.

In general the more expensive Spectrum trollies are better, in my opinion, except for the gear noise. All have several hours of running on them, back and forth on the 8 foot straight main track. I guess if you pay more you get more (??).

I just ordered the Con-Cor PCC (model of diesel powered version). It is priced at about the same level as the Spectrum Peter Witt. Can I expect the same performance out of it?

Anyone else got a different source of HO trollies from the 1920 to the 1960's? In searching the internet I found the Bowser PCC trolley but I was not impressed when I read their instruction for lubrication. They seem more like the Bachman trolley at the Spectrum price and are only single truck powered. They look cheap internally.

Anyway if anyone would like to comment then feel free, positive or negative. I'm just gathering info. Thanks.


LDBennett

richg:

Yes, I know about Wikipedia. It is basically an open source encyclopedia that anyone can submit to. And while it has some good info there can be bad or at least erroneous info there too.

Does anyone know of a good book on trollies and street cars? I am particularly interested in the three I have: PCC (Los Angeles), Peter Witt (Los Angeles) and Birney(Baltimore). Also the diesel powered PCC street cars too.

LDBennett

jward:

Sorry, but Wikipedia made no mention of PCC trolleys of a gage larger than standard and only that the LA Railway System (PCC Yellow cars) used narrow gage. We learn new things every day. Thanks.

LDBennett

Here are some HO diesel powered PCC streetcars by con-cor

ttp://www.modeltrainstuff.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=railbus&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

I got the Southern Pacific (Daylight) version coming from Model Train Stuff.

LDBennett

Doneldon:

We lived in Bell from 1946 until 1952. The freeway system was being constructed during that time and auto usage was the way to get around after about 1950. Before that our family, rather typically, had one car which my dad took to work. So if my mom did not want to be home bound she had to use the buses, trollies, and streetcars. I went with her on occasion in to Huntington Park or all the way into Downtown LA on shopping trips. I recollect that the buses and streetcars were always nearly full. By 1952 when we moved to Long Beach public transportation was on the decline big time. The freeways were plentiful and could get you to just about anywhere. One of the last major freeways to be completed was the San Diego freeway and that was done by the mid 1960's.

I remember going to Yosemite from Long Beach in mid 1950's and having to go across the San Fernando Valley via city streets. It took us 12 hours or more to get to the Yosemite entrance. Freeways changed all that and killed public transportation.

The memories of riding on the "J" cars have rushed back since taking on this little trolly layout. They were very good memories!

LDBennett

I did a little research on the internet and was informed as to what these PCC streetcars were. They were designed by committee (representatives of a lot of the streetcar companies across the nation). The government backed the project (about 1929) and owned the final specs. The cars were built for street car railroads around the nation.

The thing that surprised me was the gage of the track they ran on. ALL were standard gage (railroad gage about 5 feet) EXCEPT for Los Angeles Railways (the ones of my memory, the Yellow Cars, running on the "J" Line). They were narrow gage. Then it struck me.... That is why the cars in real life from the LA Railway System looked to have low skirts hiding the wheel. That was not it at all. The trucks were much narrower at 3 ft 6 in. They were buried way in under the body of the car.

Another thing that surprised me was that the LA system around 1900 was much more extensive and well used than in my youth in the 1950's. In fact, the automobile was responsible for the reduced ridership. The infrastructure when plugged with autos made the route schedules impossible to keep. So the management just eliminated routes through the years. There was a surge in ridership during WWII as gasoline was rationed as part of the war effort. The streetcars were replaced with electric busses at first then by diesel buses. This happened as I was growing up in the 1950's. Eventually the  LA Railway streetcars were gone followed later by the Red Cars of the Pacific Electric Company. As an aside, the Red Cars ran on standard gage track, not narrow gage.

This whole little trolley layout I started a couple of months ago has been a trip down memory lane for me and what an enjoyable trip! For those of you that are LA-ites, I came to Bell in about 1946 at four years old and moved to Long Beach in 1952. I took many trips with my Mom to downtown LA on the "J" cars starting from Huntington Park and had several rides on the Red Cars, mostly form Long Beach. When in college I visited the stacks of piled up Red Cars in a salvage lot in Long Beach on Ocean Blvd. It was a sorry sight!

LDBennett