does anyone know what the 2-8-2 will be like in terms of detail? I saw the concept image and it looks good. but will the actual model be well detailed? what current model do you think it will be comparable to?
Similar in detail to the 2-8-0 consolidation.
So, just to clarify, as I will be in the market for at least two, these will be detailed to "Spectrum" standards and not to "Sound Value" standards?
Cheers
Roger T.
They are NOT Spectrum locos. They will be built to our standard line level of detail. Although it was originally a Spectrum model the 2-8-0 is now part of the standard line.
Quote from: Yardmaster on March 31, 2015, 07:58:56 PM
They are NOT Spectrum locos. They will be built to our standard line level of detail. Although it was originally a Spectrum model the 2-8-0 is now part of the standard line.
Mmmm. Standard line line? Sorry to hear they will not be Spectrum locos. That may put them in a different light. But we shall wait and see.
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger, Yardmaster;
I would personally prefer a "straightforward" rendition, going toward USRA in concept. Why? So that I could detail it to my liking. If I want to change the feed-water system, say, to Elesco, with all of the details commensurate with same, I don't want to b doing a major "detail-stripping" project in order to accomplish this.
I don't advocate that all modellers follow my lead and do likewise-that is part of the way I enjoy this hobby-but with the high-quality brass and plastic detail parts and appliances available, it makes for a model more to what one might want as an end result.
As an example, I want to make a B&A A-6 Berkshire. These had that "beetle-browed" feed-water on the smoke-box, as well as smoke deflectors. I will take a C&O Berkshire as a starting point-Bachmann's is a good subject for this project. If there were a ton of "super-detail" work on it, I would probably not want to ruin it.
SGT C.
Likewise, I am looking forward to a straightforward USRA Mike.
I have discovered about a dozen B&O Q-3's that kept their USRA look without brakemen's' hooches, and kept their USRA tenders more or less intact. This is based on photographs of unknown date, however. Detailing the stock plastic locomotive should be a fun project and not too difficult.
Looking forward to the basic sounds and basic USRA look. Hopefully, it will be a nice running locomotive, like 99% of the Bachmann offerings. I especially appreciate the lack of traction tires, so I can weight it to my liking. Anticipating...
Regards,
Jonathan
What are the chances I get a Santa Fe mike? Did Santa Fe use this type of mikados?
And what is the difference between the mogul/consolidation and a Spectrum steamer?
If it is just that the Spectrum ones have more sound features, than I prefer the sound value locos as for me they offer enough and I can (just) afford them - in Europe even "value" get pricy.
What I really dislike is that some roads are offered as sound value and some not - and of course the ones I want are not. >:(
Wouldn`t it be possible to offer all as sound value and as not fitted? So modellers on a tight budget get sound and really good motor control and other modellers wishing more features could use the decoder of choice. And modellers using DC control would not think they pay for something they will not use.
Another option would be to offer sound value modules for retrofitting.
Thomas
Santa Fe, like most western roads, had no USRA engines
I'd like the Frisco with sound. Not for the incomplete sound package in the decoder, but for the factory installed speaker. Plus, can run with sound out of the box until I feel like putting a Tsunami in it.
Yard master, do we know the names of the three whistle options yet?
I agree when everyone says they'd like a "Plain Jane" USRA 2-8-2, I never asked for anything else. While I would like a "Plain Jane" USRA 2-8-2 I would also like is as detailed as a Spectrum engine and to run to the same high standards as a Spectrum engine. In other words, an Athearn 2-8-2 but built to Spectrum standards. With a working front coupler, gears that don't split in the box, a tender that picks up power and without the tendency to derail, all the faults the Athearn 2-8-2 suffered. I know, because I bought two and two of the Athearn 4-6-2s, based on Athearn's reputation. I've never bought another Athearn product since.
I've never bought a Bachmann "Standard" engine as I gather they do not come up to the same standards as a Spectrum engine. Therefore I will hold off purchasing any USRA 2-8-2s until the magazine reviews come in.
Cheers.
Roger T.
Best not to make judgments until the actual product is released....
Quote from: Yardmaster on April 01, 2015, 11:02:15 PM
Best not to make judgments until the actual product is released....
I think you've mistook the Internet for a place where reason and logic exist ;D
Quote from: Yardmaster on April 01, 2015, 11:02:15 PM
Best not to make judgments until the actual product is released....
Agreed, which is why I wrote will await reviews, which will, of course, be positive. :)
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger;
The innards of most Bachmann locomotives, in my opinion, supersedes most other similar product on the market. I have brass that I have to tinker with to get to run as smoothly, so in my case, all the improvements would be on the superstructure.
As far as working pilot couplers goes, this is where the skills in this endeavor are honed. Not my intent to "lord" it over anyone; just to mention that as modellers, we should be able to get around most obstacles in that category. I know I am going to wrinkle some noses on that comment, but it is my opinion-only.
SGT C. (Rich)
Roger, Athearn's never been known for their steam loco production (not sure if the same applies to their Genesis line). Agree you're better off sticking to the Spectrums.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on April 02, 2015, 07:09:27 AM
Roger;
The innards of most Bachmann locomotives, in my opinion, supersedes most other similar product on the market. I have brass that I have to tinker with to get to run as smoothly, so in my case, all the improvements would be on the superstructure.
As far as working pilot couplers goes, this is where the skills in this endeavor are honed. Not my intent to "lord" it over anyone; just to mention that as modellers, we should be able to get around most obstacles in that category. I know I am going to wrinkle some noses on that comment, but it is my opinion-only.
SGT C. (Rich)
You are "preaching to the choir" here Rich. :)
Practically everyone of my steam locos has had some amount of kitbashing or detail adding done to it. And again, the same with my diesels, m.u. cables, different bell, horns, sunshades, etc., added. :)
I agree, there are more skills in this hobby than just opening a box and placing rolling stock on the track or a some pre-built building on scenery.
Cheers
Roger T.
A couple of questions to THE BACHMAN.
1. After looking at the 2015 catalog, it appears there are no spectrum models being produced for 2015. Is that correct or did I miss something?
2. Is the DCC ready or Sound Value Model your 'top of the line model' and is this is what you have referred to as 'Standard Model?
3. How does the motor and running gear compare with the Spectum vs standard model?
Thanks, John West
My fear is the "Spectrum" line has come to an end because of production costs and the quality of the product will now be lowered to the new "Standard Line" range, which will not be to the same high quality as set by "Spectrum" and that will be sad.
I for one have limited my steam purchases to mainly "Spectrum" engines and if the "Spectrum" range is phased out, so will go my Bachmann purchases.
Cheers.
Roger T.
The Spectrum series as we knew and loved it probably costs too much to produce to sell in justifiable quantity. Only a limited number of modelers want an expensive highly detailed model with a very complete sound system, understand the expense, and are willing to pay. Beginner modelers and especially toy buyers are very happy with much less, such as molded on detail and incomplete sound packages. However, their numbers are much greater and there is more money to be made.
I'm sorry to see Spectrum largely go away but I understand, business is business and numbers are everything in business. I am glad I purchased my stock while I could. The smallest number of one particular engine is three and the largest is eight.
Quote from: Trainman203 on April 03, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
I'm sorry to see Spectrum largely go away but I understand, business is business and numbers are everything in business. I am glad I purchased my stock while I could. The smallest number of one particular engine is three and the largest is eight.
Same here. Only wished I'd picked up three of the 2-10-2s with Baker gear but all that was available were the ones with that odd looking Southern gear.
Ah well, several years ago, I picked up three Canadian branded "President's Choice" (Canadian Superstore, a supermarket chain, rebranded IHC locos) at really good prices. I scrapped the odd looking IHC tender, kitbashed three Hicken tenders into coal tenders, add all weather cabs and now I have three nice look, though still DC, 2-10-2. Still not happy with the trailing truck and may still change that to a four wheeler and have a light 2-10-4 rather like the Central Vermont 2-10-4s.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/DSCF0405.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rogertra/media/Great_Eastern/DSCF0405.jpg.html)
Cheers
Roger T.
At present. I have enough motive power so that any further purchase would be totally discretionary. I am sad to see the Spectrum line go, but that is the way Bachmann wants to operate. I personally do not see their logic-all of the dies, parts and resources are in place, so that keeping the line up is a wise move.. Shooing good customers out of the barnyard, in my opinion, just doesn't begin to make sense. "Toy" modellers, kids, etc, won't care one way or the other-but there are a ton of good modellers-a lot on this site-who would be less than happy with the circumstances that Bachmann has used to legitimize their move. There are several good companies out there who would probably jump in if Bachmann drops the ball.
SGT C.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on April 05, 2015, 01:57:56 PM
At present. I have enough motive power so that any further purchase would be totally discretionary. I am sad to see the Spectrum line go, but that is the way Bachmann wants to operate. I personally do not see their logic-all of the dies, parts and resources are in place, so that keeping the line up is a wise move.. Shooing good customers out of the barnyard, in my opinion, just doesn't begin to make sense. "Toy" modellers, kids, etc, won't care one way or the other-but there are a ton of good modellers-a lot on this site-who would be less than happy with the circumstances that Bachmann has used to legitimize their move. There are several good companies out there who would probably jump in if Bachmann drops the ball.
SGT C.
To me, this seems to be a return to the Bachmann of pre-Spectrum days.
If the Spectrum line goes, I for one will be one of those that will look elsewhere for steam power. It was the Spectrum line 2-8-0 that convinced me to go back to modelling 1958 and it was the Spectrum line that forced the other rtr steam manufacturers to raise their standards. I was looking forward to a Spectrum standard 2-8-2, not another run of the mill rtr steam loco, that's regressive. I have several of each of the non articulated Spectrum models with the exception of the 2-8-4, only two ever used in Canada and the 2-10-2 because of the odd ball Southern valve gear. Why they chose that over Baker gear I'll never know. :)
Bachmann regressing back to toy train standards will be a major loss to the steam modeller.
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger;
I believe it was because-in part-to the large fans of roads like the New Haven-which used 2-10-2s with southern valve gear, that supported that market and thus demand. Proto 1000 did a DL-109 (they owned 61 out of 65? built), and did it in New Haven livery-as well as the E-33s (Bricks; EF-4). This area (southern New England) has a very large new Haven enclave-and they struck a nerve, thus selling like hot cakes. I's true what they say: "cash is king".
Rich
SGT C
Do we know what the cab configuration of the B&O version will be? The original Q-3, No. 4500, got a somewhat square cab, which it appears to have kept through it's lifetime. Most of the subsequent USRA Light Mikes got a rounder cab, which appears to have been applied to the rest of the Q-3's.
Why don't we wait for Mr Bachman to answer my questions (post 17 above) about the differences between spectrum and the 'new' standard line before jumping to conclusions.
I just hope the quality doesn't digress from the spectrum line. Years ago I purchased several Bachman Plus engines. I sold them and didn't buy another Bachman product until the spectrum line came out with top notch quality models every good as brass.
- John West
John;
I agree with your reasoning, which is why I posted what I had. If Bachmann goes down in quality, then it won't matter much. We will mostly all go to another manufacturer who will take up the slack. Tears of regret are short-lived with the aspect of competition. If you develop a standard that stands out among your peers, then by jingo, you'd best as hell maintain that standard if you want to keep making money and stay on top. You may do some other things in which to improve efficiency, marketing, thus ROE, but you NEVER cut quality-that is the cardinal sin of manufacturers.
With the aspect of Paragon, and others like them, all just as good as Bachmann waiting in the wings, it would be healthy advice to Bachmann not to pass the baton just yet...The buying public has a very short memory.
SGT C.
The sky isn't falling. The Spectrum line was developed in the mid 1980's as a line of prototypically scale models. Yes they had a high level of detail for that time but as can be seen just about all of Bachmann's products have risen in quality. As a matter of fact some "Spectrum" models have found their way into the Standard product line such as the 44 ton switcher and the 2-8-0 consolidation. Does this mean that they are now less detailed? No! The quality of the Standard line is catching up to the Spectrum models. If we decide to reissue older Spectrum line models into the Standard line will that make them less detailed and of a lower quality? I think not. As has been stated earlier in this thread sales drive the way we do business. If we can produce models with the same drive mechanisms and give the consumer a choice of an economy sound decoder or a DCC ready loco which will accept a high end sound decoder we will sell more product and stay in business. The Spectrum line will not go away but the releases will certainly be a bit more limited to more specialized pieces. This is evidenced by recent releases such as the EM-1, The On30 Whitcomb, the Schnabel car, etc... We are trying to produce items with a broad appeal that maintain a high level of detail. Look at this photo. It is a Standard line 2-6-0 mogul parked next to a "Spectrum" K-4 Pacific. I personally think the detail level and mechanics of both locos are definitely on par with each other.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j12/jack19054/Steam%20comparison_zpsbl80amxs.jpg)
The Mikado will be a fine model that will have a high level of detail and the same mechanics inside as a Spectrum model. Here is a "teaser" for those who don't believe me. This is a pre-production model from a few months ago - the actual production model will be even nicer.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j12/jack19054/HO%20Mikado_zpswbatd6mn.jpg)
So if you will only buy this one if it has a "Spectrum" label on the box you will be missing out on a beautiful, high quality locomotive!
The 2-6-0 model appears to be missing eather ladders or a pilot deck. Fix that it would be a nice model.
As for the Mikado...whats stopping me from getting one, simiple, B&O is only being offered with sound. I don't do sound so why pay for a sound model just to take the sound decoder out? Offer it without sound and it be DCC ready i'll strongly think about getting one.
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on April 06, 2015, 08:43:29 PM
The 2-6-0 model appears to be missing eather ladders or a pilot deck. Fix that it would be a nice model.
Adding the missing pilot deck and whistle, yes, it doesn't have a whistle and a better looking headlight is quite simple, I've done it on my two. What it also needs is boiler bands.
This photo shows engine before the whistle was added to the fireman's side of the steam dome and I've yet to add boiler bands.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/The%20new%20Great%20Eastern%20Railway/IMG_0603_zps6c13d010.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rogertra/media/The%20new%20Great%20Eastern%20Railway/IMG_0603_zps6c13d010.jpg.html)
While the 2-6-0 is a good running loco, it's these missing and or poor details on locos like the 2-6-0 that have me worried over why the 2-8-2 will not be to Spectrum "quality".
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: rogertra on April 06, 2015, 09:20:02 PM
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on April 06, 2015, 08:43:29 PM
The 2-6-0 model appears to be missing eather ladders or a pilot deck. Fix that it would be a nice model.
Adding the missing pilot deck and whistle, yes, it doesn't have a whistle and a better looking headlight is quite simple, I've done it on my two. What it also needs is boiler bands.
This photo shows engine before the whistle was added to the fireman's side of the steam dome and I've yet to add boiler bands.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/The%20new%20Great%20Eastern%20Railway/IMG_0603_zps6c13d010.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rogertra/media/The%20new%20Great%20Eastern%20Railway/IMG_0603_zps6c13d010.jpg.html)
While the 2-6-0 is a good running loco, it's these missing and or poor details on locos like the 2-6-0 that have me worried over why the 2-8-2 will not be to Spectrum "quality".
Cheers
Roger T.
B&O 2-6-0s didnt have boiler bands so that detail doesnt bother me, but regardless it lacks detail.
Quote from: BaltoOhioRRfan on April 06, 2015, 10:01:13 PM
B&O 2-6-0s didnt have boiler bands so that detail doesnt bother me, but regardless it lacks detail.
Are you 100% sure? How was the boiler cladding held in place? Boiler cladding was made of something like 1/8th" rolled steel, in about four foot wide panels. Every steam loco I know has about three inch wide boiler bands that hold the cladding in place against the asbestos lagging, the boiler bands are secured with tension bolts underneath the boiler.
Not saying you are wrong, it just doesn't sound plausible. Perhaps they had another way of securing the boiler cladding?
Cheers
Roger T.
Looking at the book, out of the two photos, one has a single band the other does not. The one that does not could be the angle, will do further research. But both eather have a ladder or pilot deck, its not open space
Mr Bachman thanks for your response.
Roger, from photos, cladding appears to be lap joints fastened with bolts or rivets.
-John West
Yardmaster - Thanks for the pics of the pre-production sample. Looks like the cab is as it should be. Looking forward to delivery later this year.
Indeed, thank you, Yardmaster, for sharing the great pre-production photo. Makes me even more excited for the final product!
Regards,
Jonathan
My thoughts to all here about the aforesaid complaints about product lacking this or that. So, get on line, to the shows, etc.; and buy the parts you desire and install them. None of this is rocket science. Historically, there has been a line of good modellers that have deserved the title "master" model builder. These people are a inspiration for all to get involved in the creative aspect of this hobby-this is what separates the "men from the toys". Speaking just for myself; Never would I let some petty thing stop me from aspiring to the level of my own expectations. I hope my feelings are shared by many.
SGT C.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on April 07, 2015, 01:24:20 PM
My thoughts to all here about the aforesaid complaints about product lacking this or that. So, get on line, to the shows, etc.; and buy the parts you desire and install them. None of this is rocket science. Historically, there has been a line of good modellers that have deserved the title "master" model builder. These people are a inspiration for all to get involved in the creative aspect of this hobby-this is what separates the "men from the toys". Speaking just for myself; Never would I let some petty thing stop me from aspiring to the level of my own expectations. I hope my feelings are shared by many.
SGT C.
I agree but there are some things all steam models at least should come with. The missing pilot deck and whistle on the Alco 2-6-0 for example. What steam loco, anywhere in the world, doesn't have a whistle? Yet, to it's credit, it does have rudimentary brake detail and coupler lift bars and foot boards on the rear of the tender but why no classification lights, mandatory on North American locomotives and no boiler bands, which 99+% of steam locos have?
And I notice our other thread discussing Spectrum and Standard ranges as been deleted. :(
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger and other interested parties;
There could be a number if mitigating factors that dictated Bachmann's decision to omit this detail; obviously, I m not privy to those decisions. I will, however, keep my opinions. I think that modellers-especially steam fans, should have some knowledge of what goes where and why. Ability, usually coupled with desire, is a learned thing. Talent is likewise. To my liking, there are a lot of parts that have been better produced available by others. One has only but to go on line.
There are a lot of thoughts-opinions-on this subject. These are only mine. As aforementioned, I take a relatively independent approach. This means I am unfettered by industry's parameters and will pursue objectives on my own terms-not anyone else's.
SGT C.
The 2-8-2 is looking good. I hope that the USRA Heavy version will eventually be made as well since the Heavy version would be able to use the same chassis, wheels and tenders as the Light version and would only need a new boiler shell.
Quote from: rogertra on April 05, 2015, 03:19:11 PM
To me, this seems to be a return to the Bachmann of pre-Spectrum days.
If the Spectrum line goes, I for one will be one of those that will look elsewhere for steam power. It was the Spectrum line 2-8-0 that convinced me to go back to modelling 1958 and it was the Spectrum line that forced the other rtr steam manufacturers to raise their standards. I was looking forward to a Spectrum standard 2-8-2, not another run of the mill rtr steam loco, that's regressive. I have several of each of the non articulated Spectrum models with the exception of the 2-8-4, only two ever used in Canada and the 2-10-2 because of the odd ball Southern valve gear. Why they chose that over Baker gear I'll never know. :)
Bachmann regressing back to toy train standards will be a major loss to the steam modeller.
Cheers
Roger T.
Oh, I don't know if it would be that bad. Our new 2-8-2 is looking quite good on the detail front, the proportions look OK, and a BIG change from the old days was and remains the mechanicals (I remember well all the troubles with pancake motors, spur gears, and wheels that wouldn't stay on axles). How many of us remember when the best equipment was by Bowser, you had to build it yourself, and there was all the tuning that went into it, plus having to paint it? I can remember when the ONLY way to get a decent paint and lettering job was with Floquil and Champ or Walthers decals (and actually, I miss all of those).
Actually, Roger and Jonathan, and others, have shown what you can do with Bachmann's current offerings, and it's great!
As to Canadian National USRA light 2-10-2s with Southern valve gear--well, they had them! It was not a large class--only 10 locomotives, built by Alco in 1919 for Boston & Albany (NYC subsidiary company), purchased second-hand in 1928, and renumbered to 4200-4209 in class T-3-a.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/santafe/?page=cnr
Here's a magnificent right side color shot of 4203, apparently just out of the back shop:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/santafe/cnr4203-garceau.jpg
A small left side shot of 4200 is in this link, though you have to go way down the page to find it:
http://yourrailwaypictures.com/CNRsteamengines/
http://yourrailwaypictures.com/CNRsteamengines/CNR4200-b-fb14.JPG
Mechanically it looks like the only real change was adding an Elesco feedwater heater and the appropriate plumbing and pumps. Cosmetically, it looks like the biggest changes would be a vestibule cab, a different pilot, the feedwater heater, a different headlight, and maybe a different smokebox front.
Might be an interesting redetailing job!
Oh, from that CN Steam page, I just had to include this newspaper cartoon, which looks at us steam fans in the excursion era of 1962:
http://yourrailwaypictures.com/CNRsteamengines/5107_Montreal_Starbut.jpg
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 11, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
As to Canadian National USRA light 2-10-2s with Southern valve gear--well, they had them! It was not a large class--only 10 locomotives, built by Alco in 1919 for Boston & Albany (NYC subsidiary company), purchased second-hand in 1928, and renumbered to 4200-4209 in class T-3-a.
Yes and no. Yes, the 10 members of the T-3-a class number 4200 - 4209 were purchased in 1928 from the B&A and were shopped by the CNR being equipped with Elesco feedwater heaters and all weather cabs and with their tenders modified to match the all weather cab. However, they were not equipped with Southern valve gear but with Baker valve gear.
Cheers
Roger T.
I bet if Bachmann produced a steam engine with ALL the details, bells and whistles that most of you on here posting on that kind of stuff will still find something to pick at.
Like the old saying goes " if you want something done right, do it yourself". ;D
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 12, 2015, 08:33:10 AM
I bet if Bachmann produced a steam engine with ALL the details, bells and whistles that most of you on here posting on that kind of stuff will still find something to pick at.
Like the old saying goes " if you want something done right, do it yourself". ;D
I believe you just broke the code Jerry.... ;)
Quote from: Yardmaster on April 12, 2015, 10:37:51 AM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 12, 2015, 08:33:10 AM
I bet if Bachmann produced a steam engine with ALL the details, bells and whistles that most of you on here posting on that kind of stuff will still find something to pick at.
Like the old saying goes " if you want something done right, do it yourself". ;D
I believe you just broke the code Jerry.... ;)
Yabut I still add details and kitbash even the finest Bachmann engines, and I have multiple samples of every one of them except the 2-10-2, which I wish I did and the 2-8-4 and any of the articulateds as they didn't run in Canada.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a major fan of the Spectrum Range and because of that, I'll fight any dumbing down of the Spectrum Range or new steam introductions, like the 2-8-2, that's proposed. Spectrum are the main source of my steam motive power. I'm a big, big fan.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: rogertra on April 12, 2015, 06:28:53 AM
Quote from: J3a-614 on April 11, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
As to Canadian National USRA light 2-10-2s with Southern valve gear--well, they had them! It was not a large class--only 10 locomotives, built by Alco in 1919 for Boston & Albany (NYC subsidiary company), purchased second-hand in 1928, and renumbered to 4200-4209 in class T-3-a.
Yes and no. Yes, the 10 members of the T-3-a class number 4200 - 4209 were purchased in 1928 from the B&A and were shopped by the CNR being equipped with Elesco feedwater heaters and all weather cabs and with their tenders modified to match the all weather cab. However, they were not equipped with Southern valve gear but with Baker valve gear.
Cheers
Roger T.
Well, I have to admit, I thought I had Roger, but now I'm not so sure.
The B&A engines were built with Southern valve gear; it shows up quite plainly in both builder's photos and in service shots on the B&A. And at first glance, it looks like Southern gear in both of the CN shots I have--BUT--
On closer examination, there are differences in the valve gear hanger, and there are lap and lead levers present that aren't in any Southern configuration I've seen. In the small black and white shot it doesn't look like there's the horizontal curved guide that's a principle component of Southern motion. On the other hand, both photos seem to show the two vertical levers that are part of Southern gear, and it almost looks like the horizontal curved guide is visible in the color shot (oh, how for once we wish we had a dirty locomotive that would show more details!)
On the other hand that valve gear hanger doesn't look like anything else I've seen for Baker, and the lap and lead levers on one of the engines connects from behind the crosshead, suggesting an arrangement for an early application, such as on N&W 475:
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/3/3/8133.1241486317.jpg
Southern 630 has Southern gear:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E7deJKOjezs/T0bxJRe-8kI/AAAAAAAAAWA/SjgD-voGkr4/s1600/DSCN0119.JPG
Which makes me wonder--just what are we looking at? Those double links suggest Southern, but Roger insists it's Baker, and the lap and lead levers suggest it, too.
One thing is certain--whether this is a Baker conversion or some modification by CN to Southern, this is not what the engines were delivered with.
That makes sense. Southern gear had issues with lateral stability, particularly in high speed operations. The valve gear was noted for changing its timing when an engine would go into a curve and heel over on its springs, and it was not uncommon for the whole gear to spring itself out of shape at speed, necessitating a trip to the shop. Most applications of it were to relatively low-speed applications, such as these 2-10-2s and to East Broad Top's later 2-8-2s.
A notable exception was New Haven, which had Southern gear on some of its USRA light 4-8-2s. These engines were in fast freight service, but also had relatively tall drivers, so maybe machinery speeds were low enough to prevent some of the problems that other roads had.
Now if Roger can dig up some better pix of CN 4200-4209. . . .he's got me curious!
Jerry;
I may be mistaken, but I believe all of the New Haven 4-8-2s were equipped with Southern valve gear. The NH had a pretty diverse range of equipment, but with exceptions, mostly were kept consistent within classes, if for no other reason, then for relative ease in maintenance.
Rich (SGT C)
The pre-production model looks good. Can't wait to see what the production model will look like with all the details and a nice coat of paint. Any pics of the center headlight Union Pacific version?
J3a-614
Here's a photo of CNR 4205, one of the ten B&A engines purchased in 1928, shown here in Montreal and I believe it shows that it does have Southern valve gear.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/CNR%20Steam/CNR%204205_zpsdnt0qkdc.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rogertra/media/CNR%20Steam/CNR%204205_zpsdnt0qkdc.jpg.html)
Cheers
Roger T.
And here is a clearer photo of engine 4204 in Quebec City clearly showing it does have Southern gear.
I've been reliably informed the T-3-a were one of only two CNR subclasses with Southern Gear.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/CNR%20Steam/CNR_2-10-2_T3a_4204_QuebecQue_19370000_RO_zpskpd8vtw6.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rogertra/media/CNR%20Steam/CNR_2-10-2_T3a_4204_QuebecQue_19370000_RO_zpskpd8vtw6.jpg.html)
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: rogertra on April 13, 2015, 06:44:41 PM
I've been reliably informed the T-3-a were one of only two CNR subclasses with Southern Gear.
Cheers
Roger T.
You learn something new every day! Would have thought the T-3-a would have been the only Southern motion engines in Canada because of their being purchased second hand, and now I wonder what the other class was! ;D
It's equally amazing, at least to me, that two of these machines survived to 1961:
(SteamLocomotive.Com)"Numbers 4200-4209 bought from the Boston & Albany in 1928. Ex B&A numbers 1100-1109. Numbers 4200 -4209 scrapped as follows: 4205 & 4208 in 1955, 4200 & 4202 in 1956, 4201 & 4206 in 1957, 4203 & 4204 in 1958 and 4207 & 4309 in 1961."
I think I may have found the reason for the confusion between Baker and Southern gear.
CN had those 10 2-10-2s purchased second-hand from B&A in 1928 with Southern gear in class T-3-a
And Central of Vermont had a series of 2-10-4s built with Baker gear in 1928, in class T-3a--and Central of Vermont was a CN subsidiary:
http://www.images.technomuses.ca/index.php?en/stories/central_vermont/b/page/1/popupimage/CN002116
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cv705.htm
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/texas/cv700-laws.jpg
Hrrrumph, this isn't the only time a railroad had weird classifications. Burlington put both 2-8-2s and 4-8-4s in Class O, and C&O had a number of classes that covered more than one wheel arrangement, among them 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s in class F, 2-8-2s and 2-8-4s in class K, and 2-6-6-2s, 2-8-8-2s, and 2-6-6-6s all in class H.
Seems like every road had it's own approach to loco classes. Some, like the Burlington, based the class on the number of drivers, i.e., eight drivers are all class O. Some roads just started at A and worked their way down the alphabet. The Santa Fe used the number of the first loco in a particular group of locos - 3776 class 4-8-4's. The B&O classed their locos by wheel arrangement - a class B was a 4-6-0; a 2-8-0, class E; an 0-8-0, class L. Their articulateds combined the types - The EL-3's are 2-8-8-0's, and E plus and L.