The Philadelphia wreck is tragic. When I saw it this AM, the first thing to come to mind was the "Jenkins Curve wreck" in 1955. In this case, the engineer was alone in the cab, as the fireman was at the rear of the motor (EP-4); The investigation proved the engineer suffered a heart attack, and did not remove his foot from the "dead-man's pedal". There was a 35MPH speed restriction at the curve, and the train hit it at 70. Both are extremely tragic.
SGT C.
It will be days, maybe weeks, before the cause is determined. Current speculation is excessive speed, but can't yet rule out equipment failure (broken wheel, axle, etc.), a broken rail, or even sabatoge. I've talked with engineers in the past who worked around Philly, and they cited instances where items such as old washing machines or refrigerators were dumped onto the right-of-way.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on May 13, 2015, 08:15:58 AM
The Philadelphia wreck is tragic. When I saw it this AM, the first thing to come to mind was the "Jenkins Curve wreck" in 1955. In this case, the engineer was alone in the cab, as the fireman was at the rear of the motor (EP-4); The investigation proved the engineer suffered a heart attack, and did not remove his foot from the "dead-man's pedal". There was a 35MPH speed restriction at the curve, and the train hit it at 70. Both are extremely tragic.
SGT C.
Shows the internet danger of the foot pedal. It's not as safe as the dead man's handle.
The foot pedal can easily be over ridden by placing a heavy lunch box of even better, a joint bar on the pedal. Don't ask how I know.
Cheers
Roger T.
The foot pedal can easily be over ridden by placing a heavy lunch box of even better, a joint bar on the pedal. Don't ask how I know.
Cheers
Roger T.
[/quote]
How can the foot pedal be over ridden by placing a lunch box on the pedal? Will the loco not not automatically apply the brakes if the pedal is not released after 30s or some hundred yards?
Thomas
Not that I can't see it around some areas of Philly, but how does a wash machine or refrigerator stand up to a oncoming train ???
The trick with the "dead-man's" pedal is that you keep your foot on it while putting the holding object in place. Apparently a favorite move on GG-1's was to wedge one of the signal flags in place. Seems the length of the wooden handle was just the right length to do this. As for vagrant appliances, it doesn't take much to derail a train, especially at speed, if something gets under the wheels. Even a length of chain laid across the rails could do it.
If you wedge a piece of wood in place than the pedal is pressed down - but if it is pressed down for more then 1000 yards of pressed down longer than 30 seconds the train will brake - or is this system different from Austria/Germany?
In Austria you have to release the pedal for a moment after 30s, failing to do so an audible warning reminds you. Failing to aknowledge the warning will apply the brakes and bring the train to stop.
Thomas
Not sure how long this thread is going to last....
Nobody knows exactly what happened so it is best to avoid conjecture, eh?
This happened only a few blocks from the Bachmann offices and our prayers and condolences go out to all those affected by this tragedy.
I think a discussion of how to defeat a loco safety system is inappropriate. In American practice the use of deadman pedals is outmoded. One problem was that they had to be depressed continuously.
Another dead passenger has been found. This is indeed a tragic event. I have lost friends in accidents of this type. About the best outcome is to find out what actually happened so repeats can be avoided. For the victims, it is too late already.
My sympathies go out to those involved, and to the Bachmann staff for having their neighborhood impacted by this event.
Les
Latest news report says the train was moving at 107 MPH.
http://news.yahoo.com/amtrak-train-derails-killing-5-people-investigation-begins-073410531--finance.html
Rich
Sad to hear this and the tragedy it has brought to Philly.
Just North of New Orleans there was another Amtrak mishap caused apparently by another stupid person probably trying to beat the train.
http://www.nola.com/traffic/index.ssf/2015/05/1_dead_as_new_orleans-bound_am.html
Quote from: ebtnut on May 13, 2015, 12:57:05 PM
The trick with the "dead-man's" pedal is that you keep your foot on it while putting the holding object in place. Apparently a favorite move on GG-1's was to wedge one of the signal flags in place. Seems the length of the wooden handle was just the right length to do this.
Seen that one done as well. It's even 'better' than the joint bar as with a signal flag, you do not have to explain why it's in the cab like you had to with a joint bar. :-)
Cheers
Roger T.
Obviously this crowd never saw The Taking of Pelham 123
but it is too early to speculate on this tragedy.
With so much technology in the world today it's rediculous that they don't have automatic systems that would slow the train to max speed limits based on the trains GPS position.
They are testing driverless cars in this country for goodness sake...
Sad that profits keep safety in the dark ages.
Nm-Jeff
Quote from: NarrowMinded on May 14, 2015, 01:18:34 AM
With so much technology in the world today it's rediculous that they don't have automatic systems that would slow the train to max speed limits based on the trains GPS position.
They are testing driverless cars in this country for goodness sake...
Sad that profits keep safety in the dark ages.
Nm-Jeff
North American railroads have always lagged behind other "first world" countries when it comes to railroad safety. A lot of that lagging is due to the long distances that need to be travelled, the relatively slow speeds of the trains and the low frequency of trains over most lines. Therefore, the argument goes, the sophisticated and let's be honest here, complex and expensive systems used on other 'first world' railways are not cost effective throughout the North American railroad system. That's not to say they probably could and should be applied on certain busy, by North American standards, corridors but out in the middle of the plains on a line with say 12 or so trains per day?
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: Joe323 on May 13, 2015, 11:14:22 PM
Obviously this crowd never saw The Taking of Pelham 123
Which one
Joe? The original or the remake?
I preferred the original myself.
From the lates news report.
Investigators are trying to determine why the Amtrak train that derailed at a curve this week in Philadelphia sped up when it was supposed to be slowing down, the National Transportation Safety Board said Thursday.
In the minute or so before the crash, the train sped up from 70 mph until it reached more than 100 mph at a sharp bend where the maximum speed is supposed to be 50 mph, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said.
It's unclear, Sumwalt said, whether the speed was increased manually by engineer Brandon Bostian, who grew up obsessed with trains.
Rich
Does anyone know if ANY section of track between DC and Philly is cleared for 100 mph speed???? ???
The time frame of the speed increase is a real puzzler......What-other than human error-would cause "automatic" acceleration??
May your freight ALWAYS roll smoothly..and ON TIME!!
yes, most of the line is 10mph or more.
There are several straight stretches with a 100 mph speed limit near Philadelphia.
there was an article in trains magazine about a year or two ago which had a chart showing speed limits for the entire northeast corridor.
I was in Halethorpe, md back in February, and the trains there were fast and silent. if you weren't paying attention, they would pass you before you had a chance to raise your camera. 100+ mph is pretty impressive to watch.
that's not just gov't. private industry is just as bad. every rule in the railroaders rule book is written in blood.
a good example of this is how we got green lights for clear signals. originally, white was the clear signal. that changed because of a bad wreck at jacks run, pa just west of Pittsburgh. a passenger train was running at night in typical river fog, and got what appeared to be a clear signal at jacks run. because of the fog, it is assumed the engineer didn't get a good look at the semaphore arm, which was in the stop position. the train plowed into the back of a stopped freight train with considerable loss of life including the engine crew. the accident investigation found that the red lens on the signal was broken, giving a false clear indication.
since that time white, where used, is a restricting signal which is slightly better than a stop signal. to paraphrase the rulebook, restricting means, proceed at a speed not to exceed 15mph, able to stop short of obstruction within half the range of sight. in other words, creep along prepared to stop at any time until you pass a signal with a better indication.
A lot of time the lens were broken to cover up the facts.
do you have proof of that? there would be no need to break lenses after the clear signals were changed to green. after all, if you properly control your train on a restricting signal, according to the rules, you will not collide with anything.
Since I was not around when they used clear lens. I only know what I read years ago the railroad mag. I think there were only a few railroads that used the clear lens.
Quote from: jbrock27 on May 14, 2015, 06:32:53 AM
Quote from: Joe323 on May 13, 2015, 11:14:22 PM
Obviously this crowd never saw The Taking of Pelham 123
Which one Joe? The original or the remake?
I preferred the original myself.
The original of course
Yep, a true classic.
It is unfair to compare European trains, or Japanese, for that matter, to American railroads because the countries were destroyed. A lot of the rail systems have been rebuilt over and over while trains in the USA chug away on sections of track designed 100 years or more ago.
As for signal colors - the uncle of a friend of mine worked for the NYC. He couldn't be an engineer because he was color blind. That is why the Pennsy went to the position signals - many of which are still in use.
I feel bad for the engineer who caused that wreck. People should stop speculating until the investigation is done.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 18, 2015, 12:36:17 PM
I feel bad for the engineer who caused that wreck. People should stop speculating until the investigation is done.
But isn't that what you have just done? Blamed the engineer before the investigation is done?
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 18, 2015, 12:36:17 PM
It is unfair to compare European trains, or Japanese, for that matter, to American railroads because the countries were destroyed. A lot of the rail systems have been rebuilt over and over while trains in the USA chug away on sections of track designed 100 years or more ago.
Not completely true.
Continental trains were in use until war's end. In fact, the Americans sent hundreds(?) of 2-10-0s and 2-8-0s and some 0-6-0Ts to the UK for use once the invasion of Continental Europe took place. They realised the railways was the fast means of transporting war supplies once they were landed. What was targeted were locomotives, and major bridges, hence the need to supply the 2-10-0s and 2-8-0. Major yards were also targeted but it's surprising easy to repair bomb damaged track. The Brits found this out during the blitz. Literally, bulldoze the craters to fill them in and level the site, relay the track and within hours, over night in fact, trains could be running again. Remember, European track has opposed rail joints, not staggered as in North America. European track was also laid in 60 feet panels, not the 39 foot staged track as in North America. So repairing major track damage was fairly easy.
It's bridges, service facilitates and destroying locomotives that caused the most problems but there were always detours available and most of the train, in the later part of the war, would run at night.
Cheers
Roger T.
I'm sure the blame will be placed on the engineer - that is why I feel sorry for him.
As for WWII - my dad was a sailor on a troop transport - one trip they made to England had locomotives lashed to the deck - to be used on French railways after the invasion. Because of bomb damage some rail lines were realigned. The Burt Lancaster movie - the Train, was filmed on an abandoned French line. If you have seen the picture you know there is a bombing scene. The movie makers were doing the SNCF a favor!
The late congress man from California, Tom Lentos, was a Hungarian teenager when the Germans pressed him into a work gang. All they did, everyday, was repair bomb damage to a railway line. He said that the people doing the repairs tried their best to delay and do poor work; risking retribution from the Nazis.
You still can't compare American railroads to those in Europe. European countries, and Japan as well, spend far more on infrastructure and rolling stock than the US. I think many members of congress would like to see Amtrack go away.
It's too bad that, in the face of a disaster like this, parties with an axe to grind are more interested in finger-pointing and placing blame than finding reasons. That the engineer would be blamed is not surprising, as he is the most visible individual.
AMTRAK spends huge amounts of money on the Northeast Corridor, supposedly even makes money there. But the knee-jerk reaction is for AMTRAK to spend even more money there. Even so, most of the rest of the country goes without trains or with only one. Proposals to add more trains in the hinterland are met with howls of pain from advocates of the NE Corridor.
As a retired locomotive engineer, I understand the tendency to make him a whipping boy. All kinds of terrible life-wrecking punishments can be leveled at him. But if in fact the wreck was not his fault, nothing will be gained by destroying this person. The underlying cause of the accident will remain, and the act will be repeated with a different cast.
Les