What is the difference between a number 5 and a number 6? as in the Wye switches?
The number of the turnout (the wye is a turnout) indicates the "sharpness" of the diverging route. These numbers are inversely proportional.Thus, a #4 switch is "sharper" than a #5. A #5 is sharper than a #6, and so on.
The proper name for these is "turnout", but "switch" has been used for so long that I doubt it will ever change.
Hope this helps.
Gus.
Basically it's a ratio of how far along the through track you have to travel to get a 1 inch separation between the inside rails of the through track and diverging track.
It's all explained here here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ISTsEVhLXazr_lW56LUy9SJ4_96NGPcgeKF-9AnKkMM/edit?pli=1) on page 3.
Gus;
I had been told (by someone who knows better than me) that the turnout is a term for the whole assemblage. The "switch" is the device that actually directs the travel to one convergence or another; the mechanism is, of course, that part which is actuated, either by hand, electric, or any of several other means.
SGT C.
from my experience working on the real railroad, turnout is the engineering department term. the operating department people almost never used the term, preferring the term "switch". the movable parts were called the points or switchpoints.
as for the frog numbers, I believe they are the arctangent of the frog angle, for those who know trigonometry. this number can be accessed on any scientific calculator by using the inverse function along with the tangent function. or you can use the reciprocal of the tangent.
I'm with Jeff on this one. If you look at a list of railroad job descriptions you'll find "Switchman", but not "Turnout Man".
I grew up next to a New Haven yard, and the only time I ever heard the words 'turn out' used had nothing to do with switches. It'd generally be the night shift foreman yelling to someone on his crew, "Run down to Mama's and turn out the morning crew." "Mama's" being a local eatery with a morning shift waitress men tended to linger over their coffee to watch.
Len
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on February 03, 2015, 01:36:42 PM
Gus;
I had been told (by someone who knows better than me) that the turnout is a term for the whole assemblage. The "switch" is the device that actually directs the travel to one convergence or another; the mechanism is, of course, that part which is actuated, either by hand, electric, or any of several other means.
SGT C.
So...Like I said, turnout is the proper name for this device...
Gus.
Yeah...right...
SGT C.
I don't have any trig tables handy, but the turnout/switch number is also a reference to the ratio of the divergence of the rails through the frog. A number 4 turnout diverges 1 foot for every 4 feet of length, a No.6 diverges 1 foot in 6 feet and so on. Just for reference, the prototype guys look at a No. 8 as a very tight turnout. High-speed main line crossovers may use No. 20 turnouts.
Quote from: ebtnut on February 04, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
I don't have any trig tables handy, but the turnout/switch number is also a reference to the ratio of the divergence of the rails through the frog. A number 4 turnout diverges 1 foot for every 4 feet of length, a No.6 diverges 1 foot in 6 feet and so on. Just for reference, the prototype guys look at a No. 8 as a very tight turnout. High-speed main line crossovers may use No. 20 turnouts.
trig functions are the ratio of sides to a central angle in a right triangle. the central angle here would be the frog. the two divergent legs of the frog would be the "adjacent" and "hypotenuse" and the spread of the rails the "opposite"....the tangent is the "opposite" divided by the "adjacent" and is the ratio of spread you described. the frog number is the reciprocal of that ratio, thus the inverse tangent, or arctangent.
Here is everything you ever wanted to know about RR switches. - John West
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ISTsEVhLXazr_lW56LUy9SJ4_96NGPcgeKF-9AnKkMM/edit
The switch vs turnout premise of JS Geare article is debunked by any technically accurate Mechanical Railroad/Railway Engineering text.
In the real world, when the context is track work the switch is a component of the turnout. Commonly the switch is comprised of the movable parts of the turnout. When real railroad people that I know speak of the switch they are referring to the movable parts of a turnout. Thus are correctly using the term switch.
Bachmann correctly labels its track product a Turnout.
more...
Click Here (http://armytransportation.tpub.com/TI-850-02/TI-850-020078.htm) for an example of an illustration of turnout and switch used in the real world.
Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component. I won't argue with that.
However, real railroaders, verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch". My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch. "Line the east switch for the siding."
Only place I saw them referenced as "turnouts" was in "Model Railroader" and "Railroad Model Craftsman" and that, they stated in the 1960s and 1970s, was to avoid confusion over electrical switches, used to control the DC power blocks (No DCC back in them days).
It's the same as people incorrectly calling a "Lamp" a "Light Bulb" when technically a "light bulb" is a lamp. Yes, they advertise them as "light bulbs" so the unwashed masses know what they are and to avoid confusion as "light bulb" is the common name for a "lamp". Same as in rules books. They call a "switch" a "switch" to avoid confusion as "switch" is what railroaders call them. Even the MOW guys, those guys that get their hands dirty building and maintaining the things, call the whole thing a "switch".
So, to me, they are a "switch" and if it's good enough for the guys on the railroad who do the dirty work and if it's good enough to be used in the rule books, then "switch" is good enough for me.
I'll leave "turnout" to the guys in suits and model railroad magazine editors.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: rogertra on February 04, 2015, 10:42:24 PM
Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component. I won't argue with that.
However, real railroaders, verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch". My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch. "Line the east switch for the siding.". . .
Quote from: rogertra on February 04, 2015, 10:42:24 PM
Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component. I won't argue with that.
However, real railroaders, verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch". My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch. "Line the east switch for the siding.". . .
Roger, You just repeated what I wrote only using more words.
Yes, the rule book correctly use the term "switch" as it is referring to the movable parts of a turnout. And you correctly used "line the switch" not the incorrect movie phrase "throw the switch".
Quote from: Hunt on February 04, 2015, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: rogertra on February 04, 2015, 10:42:24 PM
Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component. I won't argue with that.
However, real railroaders, verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch". My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch. "Line the east switch for the siding.". . .
Roger, You just repeated what I wrote only using more words.
Yes, the rule book correctly use the term "switch" as it is referring to the movable parts of a turnout. And you correctly used "line the switch" not the incorrect movie phrase "throw the switch".
Hunt.
With all due respect, not really. Maintenance of way employees also refer to the whole "turnout" as a "switch". Only they use the term "switch points" to define the moving parts of a "switch". Not only have I been a locomotive engineer, I have also built several full size "switches" and laid track with real working railroaders and I never heard the term "turnout" used once.
And I agree, no railroader ever says "Throw the switch", that's a modeller's term. Real railroaders "Line the switch" or "Get the switch" as they are far to heavy to "throw". :)
BTW, it's from the name "switch points" in the UK that railwaymen use the term "points" just like our railroaders use the term "switch" to refer to a "turnout".
Of course, all this is semantics and all that counts is that we all know what we are referring to when we use either railroad talk and "Line the switch" or model railroad talk when we "Throw the turnout." :)
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: rogertra on February 05, 2015, 12:17:11 AM
. . . Maintenance of way employees also refer to the whole "turnout" as a "switch". Only they use the term "switch points" to define the moving parts of a "switch". . . .
Roger,
Your experience is what it is and as you acknowledged not technically correct. Your rule book uses switch properly.
However, your experience is not the point of view of maintenance of way personnel from different railroads I have questioned on the subject of switch vs turnout over several years. Except for one person had same point of view as you just wrote. I found out later when I asked his supervisor about it he had be on his crew just a few weeks. I was assured he would know differently before he finished his on-the-job training. ;)
You can have the last word if you wish.
For whatever it's worth...When I run my trains, I think to myself - "Gotta line up the switches for track three". Or something along those lines... :)
Gus.
on csx when the dispatcher talks a train by a stop signal at a control point, he will inform the crew whether the switches are in "manual" or "motor".....on all railroads I dealt with (csx, ns/conrail, and b&p) we always reported the switch lined and locked when we were in the clear. we also have switch heaters on all remote controlled switches, the propane powered ones are pretty cool to look at on a cold winter night, with flames shooting up along the outside of the stock rail.
btw, the manual lever used to line the switch is called a switchstand, not a ground throw.....and the ones used on remote controlled switches are called switch motors, not switch machines.
I could go on, as there are a lot of terms modellers use that are completely different than real life.
Quote from: jward on February 05, 2015, 06:47:58 PM
on csx when the dispatcher talks a train by a stop signal at a control point, he will inform the crew whether the switches are in "manual" or "motor".....on all railroads I dealt with (csx, ns/conrail, and b&p) we always reported the switch lined and locked when we were in the clear. we also have switch heaters on all remote controlled switches, the propane powered ones are pretty cool to look at on a cold winter night, with flames shooting up along the outside of the stock rail.
btw, the manual lever used to line the switch is called a switchstand, not a ground throw.....and the ones used on remote controlled switches are called switch motors, not switch machines.
I could go on, as there are a lot of terms modellers use that are completely different than real life.
So, so true.
Cheers
Roger Traviss
I just got an 0-8-0 switcher or is it an 0-8-0 turnouter??? lol
I have been a model railroader for about 60 years. The term "turnout" in model railroading did not exist when I started. Sometime along the way this term made its way into the hobby. I asked two old friends that are retired REAL railroad engineers, B&O and CSX. Neither one has ever used the term "turnout" only the term "switch". I will continue to call them switches. You model railroaders can call them turnouts. It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. - John West
Quote from: West Bound on February 05, 2015, 07:52:33 PM
I just got an 0-8-0 switcher or is it an 0-8-0 turnouter??? lol
I have been a model railroader for about 60 years. The term "turnout" in model railroading did not exist when I started. Sometime along the way this term made its way into the hobby. I asked two old friends that are retired REAL railroad engineers, B&O and CSX. Neither one has ever used the term "turnout" only the term "switch". I will continue to call them switches. You model railroaders can call them turnouts. It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. - John West
I agree John.
They will always be "switches" to me.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: West Bound on February 05, 2015, 07:52:33 PM
. . . It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. . . .
Using Switch and Turnout as interchangeable terms should not be acceptable, if you know they are not. ;D
"The basic parts of a turnout are a switch, a frog, guard rails (when required) and a switch stand."
Quote - Atlantic Track & Turnout Co., which started in track business in 1924 – Today company does business as Atlantic Track
Switch and Turnout are both correct, but not in every situation. It all depends on whether you're working on the "Operations" side, or the "Engineering" side of the railroad. I went digging through my collection of Operating Rulebooks and Engineering Standards, and invariably the Rulebooks use "switch" and the Engineering Standards use "turnout" for the complete assembly. Although the Standards do use "switch" for the moving portion of the turnout.
So, if you want to be pendantic about it, when you're designing and building a layout it's a turnout. Once it's built and your operating trains, it's a switch. Unless you're in the UK, where it's "points".
Personally, I think it's kind of pointless (pun intended) to keep going back and forth on this. At any rate, for anyone who cares, these are the definitions I found common across Rulebooks and Engineering Standards:
Definitions common to 'Railway Operations' Rule Books:
Crossover – Arrangement of tracks and switches providing a route from one track to another.
Interlocking – Arrangement of signals and switches so interconnected that functions must succeed each other in a predetermined sequence, which permits train movements over routes only when non-conflicting conditions exist.
Switch – Special track work for routing from one track to another.
Switch, Automatic – Electrically powered switch that is controlled remotely.
Switch, Dual-Control – Track switch controlled remotely or operated manually.
Switch, Facing Point – A switch aligned such that the switch points face toward the approaching train movement.
Switch, Manual – Track switch operated manually.
Switch, Plug – Device inserted into a switch point to prevent movement.
Switch, Point – That portion of the special trackwork that moves in the open or closed position.
Switch, Diverge Position – Switch position aligned for diverging movement over a track switch.
Switch, Straight Position – Switch position aligned for normal movement over a track switch.
Switch, Spring – Switch equipped with a spring arranged to restore its points to their original position after having been trailed through by each wheel.
Switch, Trailing Point – A switch aligned such that the switch points face away from the approaching train movement.
Switch, Variable (Slap and Stay) – Track switches not requiring alignment for trailing movements and once moved, switch points remain aligned in the trailed position. Variable switches shall be properly aligned for facing movements.
4.20 Switches and Crossovers
4.20.1 When operating on surface alignment over facing point switches, speed shall not exceed 3 mph until the rear of the train has cleared the switch points.
4.20.2 Employees are prohibited from reversing direction of a train over a switch.
4.20.3 Employees shall not change position of any Mainline switches unless authorized by OCC.
4.20.4 Train Operators are responsible for observing switch points and shall not operate through switches where it is observed that points are open or the track work is damaged or broken. Contact OCC for instructions.
4.20.5 Manual sanding is prohibited over switches except in an emergency.
=======================================================
Definitions common to 'Railway Engineering' Standards:
TRACK DESIGN
Turnout Definitions
Point of Switch (P.S.): The point at which a track begins to diverge from another
Point of Intersection (P.I.): As applied to turnouts, the point of intersection of the centerlines of the diverging track and the through track
Point of Frog (P.F.): The point at which two running rails intersect within a turnout or crossing
Heel of Frog: The end of the frog that is furthest from the point of switch.
Turnouts
A turnout (T.O.) consists of all parts of the track structure, including switch points, frog, rails, switch ties, fastenings, etc., necessary to connect one track to another. Turnouts are designated by the size of the frog contained in the turnout. Turnouts installed on industrial sidetrack shall include switch point guards.
======================================
Len
all that pretty much bears out what I've been saying all along.
as a side note, only rules 420-3 and 420.4 still apply, trains routinely exceed 3mph over facing point switches, to do otherwise would bring the railroads to a standstill. as a matter of fact we were able to run up to 45mph through the diverging route on certain switches.
rule 420.2 only applies to switches within an interlocking. basically, you must completely clear the interloking limits before the switches unlock and can be relined. only then can you reverse direction on a new route. if the interlockings are spaced close together, such as in a yard or station throat, it is possible that your train will be fouling one or more interlockings when you reverse direction. in this case, you must only be clear of the one where the switches must be relined.
rule 420.5 is pretty much a moot point as nobody manually sands the rails anymore. interesting that there are no restrictions on using automatic sanders on switches.
btw, the occ referred to would be the train dispatcher, or if the interlocking is under local control, the tower operator.
This discussion makes me glad that all I do, is play with toy trains :D ;D
Sid
@ WoundedBear
;) ::)
Yeah me too!
Yet another ******* contest between the experts...
Surely it helps to encourage and foster the newbies here, and give them confidence to post again.
James & Sid, I'm with you. As I said above, "Personally, I think it's kind of pointless (pun intended) to keep going back and forth on this."
And just to add to the confusion, today I learned that a lot of the newer electrified "Light Rail" lines use "turnout" to refer to what we would call a "passing siding". Go figure.
Len
At least once a year for more than a decade an "is it switch or turnout" has been started by me. It always brings out some interesting perspectives, perversion of logic and conclusions. Thanks to all who contribute this time.
BTW -I intentionally placed an error of fact in my following reply on February 04, 2015.
"The switch vs turnout premise of JS Geare article is debunked by any technically accurate Mechanical Railroad/Railway Engineering text."
My reply without the error it is, "The switch vs turnout premise of the JS Geare article is debunked by any technically accurate Railroad/Railway Civil Engineering text."
i agree with hunt.
I have found that what the real railroads do or have done is far more interesting than anything we could hope to model.
I always like JS Geare's article on how to replace talgo trucks and install coupler boxes and knuckle couplers (he uses EZ Mate Mark IIs btw). I have used his method on occasion.
*My January 1952 issue of Model Railroader magazine refers to turnouts in articles but adds in the magazine refer to switches (numbered) as opposed to turnouts. The adds also refer to metal and plastic "fishplates". I can remember a time when joiners and fishplates were terms used interchangeably to describe the same thing, rail joiners.
Quote from: jbrock27 on February 07, 2015, 07:03:13 AM
The adds also refer to metal and plastic "fishplates". I can remember a time when joiners and fishplates were terms used interchangeably to describe the same thing, rail joiners.
The only "fishplates" I'm familiar with are the ones served at my favorite fish restaurant... :)
Rail joiners..?? I've got over 100 in my layout....
Gus.
In case you are still looking or have to look again, I saw that plastic safe, Teflon reel grease in K Mart today for $2.99.
Quote from: jbrock27 on February 07, 2015, 07:25:12 PM
In case you are still looking or have to look again, I saw that plastic safe, Teflon reel grease in K Mart today for $2.99.
Thanks JB....But, as I mentioned in the original thread, I did find my original grease tube a few days ago.
Gus.
Roger;
As an electrical contractor in the whole working spectrum of new material-If you refer to a package in which lamps came, they will be referred to as "lamps". Proper usage of terminology is going to be imperative from about five years ago...to forever. I will NOT refer to a lamp as a bulb to my customer. I simply refer to things in the rightful name.
Technically, if you open NFPA70 to definitions, you will find I am correct; "Bulbs" are lamps; "Lamps" are referred to as "Luminaires" or "fixtures". People are just going to have to get to know this. Just for simplicity though; bulbs go into the ground; lamps light up the night. The world is growing-exponentially.
SGT. C
EWK,
Tell it to CREE: http://creebulb.com/ (http://creebulb.com/)
Len
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on February 08, 2015, 08:51:51 PM
Roger;
As an electrical contractor in the whole working spectrum of new material-If you refer to a package in which lamps came, they will be referred to as "lamps". Proper usage of terminology is going to be imperative from about five years ago...to forever. I will NOT refer to a lamp as a bulb to my customer. I simply refer to things in the rightful name.
Technically, if you open NFPA70 to definitions, you will find I am correct; "Bulbs" are lamps; "Lamps" are referred to as "Luminaires" or "fixtures". People are just going to have to get to know this. Just for simplicity though; bulbs go into the ground; lamps light up the night. The world is growing-exponentially.
SGT. C
Not going to argue with that SGT. C.
In the theatre biz where I am employed, a "luminaire" or "fixture"or a "Leko" (A brand name, like saying 'band aid' for an adhesive bandage) are what "lamps" are placed into to light the stage. :)
Don't ask how many times I've used the saying "Bulbs grow in the garden, lamps light up the night." :)
Cheers
Roger T.