Full Steam Ahead suggested he would like to see Bachmann produce a New York Central 4-6-4 (and he took an unfortunate amount of ribbing due to his typing); the engine, as he pointed out, is a classic, but as some of the others suggested, has been or is in production by others, going back as far as an American Flyer AC version in the prewar era, in the same time period as Varney's Dockside and MDC-Roundhouse 0-6-0.  For that reason, even I would question that choice; in some ways, it would be like another Pennsy K-4.

At the same time, to produce a new 4-6-4 has a number of marketing challenges.  Not many other roads have the following of the NYC and its 275 4-6-4s, and of the others that had the type, the rosters were much smaller.  The second-largest owner of Hudsons was Canadian Pacific, with 65 engines; other owners had a dozen or less, and two, the Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo and the Maine Central, had only two each.  This is not a small consideration, especially when you consider that a new engine is supposedly a $250,000 investment in tooling and other incidentals. 

One thing that could help is the fact that most 4-6-4s had 79 or 80 inch drivers.  This is important because most modern steam locomotives--essentially anything with a trailing truck--had a driver axle spacing about 3 or 4 inches greater than the diameter of the drivers.  I suspect this is the minimum clearance that would accommodate flange clearance and brake rigging.  Some engines would have greater spacing, but this was usually due to weight distribution (USRA 0-8-0s), or to allow for other components (such as a firebox that would drop between axles in a 4-6-0 or 2-8-0).  Basically, this means a common mechanism can often be used for engines of the same driving diameter; Bachmann already does this with its 80-inch drivered 4-8-4s, based on AT&SF, NYC (Niagara), and Southern Pacific (Daylight) prototypes. 

On this basis, here are what would be my suggestions for new 4-6-4s:

My first example requires I declare a certain amount of prejudice, as I am a C&O modeler.  Still, C&O's 4-6-4s used a tender Bachmann makes that goes with the C&O 2-8-4; certain other parts, such as a trailing truck, were interchangeable, too.  Both the Baker-geared 1942 L2s and the poppet-valved postwar L2as were built by Baldwin; 78" drivers:

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-11.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1050.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1106.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1158.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1162.jpg

Another one, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, Baker gear, 78" drivers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photos_by_laurence/3801376761/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3918657600/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3917872735/in/photostream/

http://www.llarson.com/steam/schenzinger/images/NA42.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july98/07-07-98/cbxq3003.jpg

The Milwaukee's conventional 4-6-4s had 80" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/MIL137.JPG

http://www.oldmilwaukeeroad.com/content/progress/photopages/photo09a.htm

DL&W:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_dlw1151.jpg

Wabash, 80" drivers (home rebuild from 2-8-2):

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1394.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1395.jpg

New Haven (made elsewhere, so not necessarily a candidate here), 80":

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july99/07-26-99/nh1408.jpg

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/nynhh1409.jpg

There are other 4-6-4s, but they are not included here, as the change in driver size is too great, resulting in different overall proportions.

There is another bit of a hole, and that's in medium-drivered 4-8-4s with wheels in the 74-to-76 inch range.  Again, the idea is that a common mechanism can help amortize the cost of tooling.

Again, we start with the C&O J3 and J3a, the latter class including an engine numbered 614:

http://leesome1226.tripod.com/Pictures/co614erietable.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-39.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-142.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-21056.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1418.jpg

Burlington's burly O-5 and O-5a:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1602802

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1312191

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=293065

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082789

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082793

Full-sized "brass" Burlington 5632:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=265628

Lackawanna had several types of 4-8-4s; the Q-4 had 74" drivers:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

Southern Pacific's first daylights were GS-2s, 76" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP4412.JPG

Speaking of the GS-2s also brings up the GS-3s, which had 80" drivers like the currently produced GS-4.  Hmm, a change to single headlight insert, an open cab, modified tender with gangway account of open cab--could the GS-4 tooling provide a different engine?

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

A recent excursion favorite, 74" drivers:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298516&nseq=5

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298239&nseq=6

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=293804&nseq=7

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=284738&nseq=10

2008--or 1948?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=280515&nseq=16

There may be others; what else could you suggest?

Finally, Bachmann might even want to consider a New York Central 4-8-2, specifically an L1 or L2 of some sort, which was a freight engine with 70" drivers and Baker valve gear on the L2, like the USRA 4-8-2 currently in the line.  Note the variations in subclasses; I personally like the earlier engines with heavy, overhanging Elesco feedwater heaters that looked like H-10 2-8-2s on steroids rather than the later ones, which looked like Hudsons:

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2967_rcl.htm

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2618.JPG

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2872.JPG

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/images/exhibits/newyorkcentral2933.jpg

Have fun.

I don't expect to see one made, even if this locomotive was so highly thought of by Virginian employees and fans--but maybe it could be kitbashed.  Check the photos and see if you wouldn't agree:

http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=1351

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=23224&nseq=8

http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=61852

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=94511&nseq=2

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=229492&nseq=0

http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=87503

http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Feature/steamtwn/parade5.jpg

Drivers are close in size, overall proportions are good, even Alco domes on the Chinese engine (based on an Alco design?).  The engine looks to be mostly a standard if slightly extensive redetailing job, even if it includes scratching up a new cab.  Main problem--that round-topped tank the Virginian used, similar to those on some older N&W power and L&N 2-8-4s.  How would you tackle it?

This one is a white metal and etched brass kit from Great Britain; they were built here, and some ran here (Alaska Railroad, US Army at Fort Eustis, Va.), and one still runs on occasion (Great Smokey Mountain Scenic 1702, ex-Reader Railroad, Ex-Warren & Sabine River(?), ex-USATC, at all times carrying number 1702).

http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073

Similar engines were built in the postwar era for reconstruction in China, and other postwar USATC engines included the engine now running (in somewhat modified form) as Tennessee Valley No. 610.

http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/faq.asp

I once put a DJH engine (German 4-4-0) together for a commission; they are roughly comparable to something Tichy might make if Tichy built locomotives.  A lot of parts, some quite small; I used ACC to hold the thing together, along with all the screws and the like.  The frame was a brass fabrication, held together with screws that ran into threaded tubes used for frame spacers.  Drivers were mounted on axles with screws; the axles had square ends to fit into square holes in the wheels, resulting in self-quartering wheels (like old Varney parts, I'm told).  Fit was overall excellent, particularly in the frame and running gear, although you do have some flash clean-up.

They no longer list these, but at one time this firm had a New York Central J-1 Hudson (No. 5200, no less, with its original 8-wheel tank), a USRA light 2-8-2, and a US Army "Pershing" (WWI-vintage) 2-8-0; Texas State Scenic runs one of these as its No. 300.

http://www.texasstaterr.com/

One potential problem could be price; over 300 British pounds, whatever that is in US dollars.

The desire for such an engine has shown up so heavily, I decided to see what might be available, at least as a stand-in, until such an engine becomes available.

IHC is out of business now, but their Southern Pacific-based 2-6-0 strikes me as looking a lot like the B&M engine: overall size and proportions are about right, drivers are the right overall size, biggest differences are the cab, cylinders, and the tender.  (I didn't mention that the steam dome isn't in quite the right place--if I were doing this, that would be something I would have to live with, unless the dome is a separate part and easily movable, as on Bachmann Spectrum engines.)  Changing these items and a general redetailing job could come up with a decent model, based on the photos below.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1199721796052120656kBILXi

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1199722903052120656iNoSuY

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35033278@N00/2384498829/in/pool-610150@N24

https://udisco.com/hobbies/pics/990511.jpg

I'm not at all familiar with these locomotives, in either model or prototype form, so maybe I'm full of hooey, but I am curious to know if anyone has tried this and how well the results turned out.

For additional reference, should this work out well:

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1199725927052120656NptKIn

Not quite as close as the 2-6-0, but try to find anything else of this general vintage and overall size anywhere else besides brass.

http://trains.arneke.net/product_revues/mehano_ihc/index.shtml

Several of the photos are from this series of pages, which includes some of B&M's other power.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/248777145ocwUSF?start=0

Hello,

I'm normally in HO, a big fan of big steam on the C&O, but I came across this page a while back looking up something else, and thought it should be shared; hope you enjoy it.

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/

Although this is a site for a standard gauge road that ran steam until 1965, there is still a great deal of inspirational material, particularly on the logging operations page.  Question: how do you simulate fording a stream with a Shay in any scale?

http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/

Hope you enjoy this.

Hello,

I'm normally in HO, a big fan of big steam on the C&O, but I came across this page a while back looking up something else, and thought it should be shared; hope you enjoy it.

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/

Although this is a site for a standard gauge road that ran steam until 1965, there is still a great deal of inspirational material, particularly on the logging operations page.  Question: how do you simulate fording a stream with a Shay in any scale?

http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/

Hope you enjoy this.

At the suggestion of pdlethridge, here is a place for some links to early model railroad kits that are still available.  In some cases the detail may be a bit crude, some are challenging to put together, but they are still fun and, in a way, a connection to early modelers, including the legendary John Allen of Gorre & Daphetid fame.  These kits are part of what would have kept Varney Docksides and Ten-Wheelers company back when.  As to the thread name, I was tempted to call them "old-time kits," but that might have been confused with pure period models--but then, isn't that what these are, in more ways than one?

Freight cars in wood and cast metal:

http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/

Buildings in wood and cardboard, and in real corrugated metal:

http://www.alpinemodels.com/index.html

Modelers of the 19th century will like this one:

https://www.labellemodels.com/

Of course, Bachmann's own Plasticville line dates to 1947.  (History site)

http://www.tandem-associates.com/plasticville/plasticville.htm

Northeastern Scale Models used to sell a variety of freight cars, and was best known for a Russell snowplow and Boston and Maine coaches that would have gone behind those Moguls and Americans a Bachmann contingent loves so well.  Those cars are not currently catalogued, but the company is around, in California.

http://www.nesm.com/

Not listed here is Bowser, who made an extensive line of steam locomotive kits, mostly of PRR prototypes, including E6s 4-4-2s, H10s 2-8-0s, G5 4-6-0s, L1s 2-8-2s, M1 and M1a 4-8-2s, I1s 2-10-0s, and of course K4s 4-6-2s.  A New York Central K-11 4-6-2 and a very heavy "lead pipe" (waggish comment) UP 4-6-6-4 were also available, and for a while this firm also reproduced Varney's Dockside, 4-6-0, and 2-8-0.  Unfortunately, steam kits are too small a market today.

Then there were (and are) these classic trucks from Ulrich:

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=ulrich+models

http://www.ulrichmodels.biz/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.railstop.com/

This is intended as just a start.  No doubt there are others around, and I'm certain some readers here will remember having worked with others, such as Ideal Models (structure kits).

Let's hear what you have to say.

As a fan of the C&O as it was in the postwar Superpower era (before Diesels and blue and yellow paint), I lean toward the big engines.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a market for smaller power.

One additional engine could come from Bachmann's current production.  This is the Shay, which could also pass for Sierra Railway No. 12.  This engine was later sold to Standard Lumber Co., and later to Pickering Lumber.  It's still around, in a safety-orange paint scheme at that!

http://www.ncry.org/roster/s_12/srr12.shtml

Baldwin and Alco rod loggers would also be something that might be considered.  These 2-8-2's and 2-6-2's typically had 48" drivers--which, if I measured the model correctly, happens to be close to the size used under the 0-6-0T, which I believe has 44's.

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/LocoImages/Loco-0016-2.html

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/LocoImages/Loco-0018.html

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/LocoImages/Loco-0010.html

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/LocoImages/Loco-0021.html

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/LocoImages/Loco-0025.html

http://www.tidewatersouthern.com/contents/motivepower/steam/Baldwin_2-6-2_132/baldwin_2-6-2_132.htm

http://www.tidewatersouthern.com/contents/motivepower/steam/Baldwin_2-6-2_132/Sierra32Jamestown1/sierra32jamestown1.htm

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=312694&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=170780&nseq=0

One of the interesting things to note is the collection of subtle differences between Alco and Baldwin engines, most notably in domes.  This applied to narrow gauge power as well, illustrated here with engines from the East Broad Top (Baldwin) and the Sumpter Valley (Alco).

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=305965&nseq=6

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=300061&nseq=37

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=81311&nseq=19

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=81132&nseq=21

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=286081&nseq=2

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=221440&nseq=4

Domes are fatter, but they are still Baldwin domes on this modern, post-war 2-8-2 on the White Pass & Yukon in Alaska:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=297785&nseq=9

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=128925&nseq=75

Enjoy.

Going back to look at the NdeM post, I noticed that the first slide show was a response to something else.  That something else was a broad-gauge Spanish 2-8-2, being prepared for an excursion at a roundhouse.  What stood out was the sound of the turntable--whining and rattling like the one that used to be in Hagerstown, Md., or the one the late O. Winston Link recorded at Bristol, Va.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW_UZy6ZGOs&feature=video_response

Considering all that is being done in sound, I have to ask if anybody has done or considered this yet--or will, now that the subject has been brought up?

Other tables, in America. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziRTAn2oiLs

The Western Maryland's table at Frostburg, Md., sounds like a noisy trolley car, suggesting a possible sound source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxYPjKr2dyA

UP 844 at Cheyenne, Wy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFCtmw0IvyA&feature=related

Of course, we can't leave the diesel fans out--UP Centennial 6936, also at Cheyenne--whine, whine, runk, whine, runk, runk, whine, runk--listen to those gears in the "tractor" (turntable drive).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccFNgyQIrPg

An air-operated turntable tractor on the Texas State Railroad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jMiIPxbdQ

Sound isn't a problem with this one, but how do you realistically model the "tractor?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip3EcJCyj5g

Have fun.

Below are some links I came across on YouTube.  I'm afraid I don't know Spanish, but it looks like Bachmann has a satisfied customer (and a fine modeler) south of the border.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EPf45XgQQI&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc5tmzU3ULU&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCmCAGz_R2U&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByO9ye2lT0I&feature=channel