Quote from: mlrr on January 14, 2010, 09:23:42 AM
The wheels definitely need to be lubricated.  Lube the wheel bearings and the wheel wipe contacts.  The squeal is mostly from the contact between the copper pick-up and the inside of the wheels.  I lubed these spots Monday.  It seems that this needs to be done fairly often.

When you say the train runs reasonably, I assume it tops out near or close to 150 MPH under DCC?

Members on other forums support your earlier claim that removing the PC board and hard-wiring improves performance.  I have yet to try this myself but the confirmation eases my mind a bit.

One thing I want to point out is that the HHPs on DC power started up and slowed down smoothly in addition to getting up to 125 MPH scale speed.  The Acelas that I have don't start up smoothly on DC control.  Lubing the cars helps a LITTLE bit.

Nah, its not going that fast, but i haven't lubed all the coach wheels yet either,  only the dummy end (I can't find my other powered end for the life of me!).   However, it moves fast enough that i don't feel like i'm moving slower than a passenger train should.   my HHP8 could not catch up to the Acela set, but i'm still sure my AEM7s can out run it.

If it is true what you say, that others support my plans, i'll have to get a decoder for it.  the only reason i haven't is that its not on my decoder priority list, so to speak.

My Acela set has a TCS DP5X in the powered car, and it seems to run reasonably.  It would probably help to have a pair of power cars (can't find my other powered chassis, but when i do, i'm going to try double heading).   

At least on the club layout, the only issues come from not having enough power to maintain speeds on certain grades, but thats not at all surprising considering the weight of the train and the hills involved.

I will say that the Acela cars themselves (as well as the dummy locomotive) probably need to have their trucks lubricated at the very least.   they are not very free rolling, and this is probably what holds them up (you know its bad because every acela set i've seen has a characteristic wheel "squeal" when you roll it.)

I haven't messed with that HHP8 in a while (it turns out the intended train was having extreme derailment issues which pretty much forced me to remove it.  I've been running a SEPTA set with Walthers cars and an Atlas AEM7 instead).   When i get some time, i'll play with it some more.

Quote from: ABC on November 19, 2009, 12:34:05 AM
Nope that's not how the system works in the real world though. In a perfect world maybe, but the improvements would cost all consumers more because either the cost of production would go up for all models, or all models who were effected by the change, which includes all models without mars or ditch lights, because they could be made cheaper when the other models were made the same as them.

I beg to differ.  When CSX or UP licenses something, those models cost more than say, a Pennsy or Conrail model.   Similarly, i've seen trains with extra lights in other manufactures go for more, and simpler models go for less.

they don't raise the price on all SD40-2s just cause some of them have to be licensed.

Besides, if the railroad didn't have a mars light, then its not like bachmann is adding them unprototypically (are they?).    If its vice versa, than the bachmann product is not worth buying, get a better unit.


However, if they already have all the lighting and stuff in, and all it needs to do is mass produce a slightly different board, then why not? 

I saw that article, but i haven't picked up the magazine yet.   People are getting ambitious!

I saw someone trying to figure out how to put sound in one of those Grandt Line 23 ton switchers.   I think if they use a small under-floor power truck,  the speaker in the cab, and the decoder in the hood, it might work.

still madness though.

Quote from: James Thomas on November 18, 2009, 07:39:24 PM
Expensive solution? -- put a decoder in the dummy.

Cheap solution? -- run wires from dummy lights to decoder in powered unit.

-JRT

thats a 6 car train (prototypically) with $50 each cars, and a lot of work that would be in a precarious position. 

You can buy really cheap Lighting-Only decoders (built for just this situation) for $15/$20.   Its a whole lot less work, and all you have to do is program it so that the dummy  is either in consist or is the same as the locomotive.   Its MUCH easier that way, and you won't have to damage your cars.   


I really have to reccomend Train Control Systems (TCS) lighting decoders.  they are some of the better decoders out there (they beat Digitrax by miles),  and their customer service truly is unbeatable (if anything goes wrong, they will exchange it no questions asked, no money payment required). 

thats cheating my friend! you always have to wait.   now, the anticipation will kill you, and the surprise your parents want to see christmas morning will be false. 

Quote from: Jim Banner on November 18, 2009, 11:34:57 PM
I am not convinced that the average modeller who models a road that never used Mars lights or flashing ditch lights would be happy paying extra

Jim

If their railroad never used a mars light, then they won't have any mars light on their model to pay extra for.   

Quote from: RAM on November 18, 2009, 11:50:22 PM
I think those Steeple cab bodies have been out of production for 10 years or more.

I've seen them around.   

I am a MAJOR electric modeler  (nearly half my roster is electric, which is why i am a bachmann customer, lol).   I'm sure i've posted some pictures of my catenary efforts (none that great, but i've got an improved jig and materials ready to assemble).   

I actually want to get their Baldwin electric switcher.  they were a little more heavy duty (Class one use),  so it would make sense free-lanced on my layout.   They even lasted for a fairly long time.     

I'm having a hard time finding where to order though.   gotta grab me a baldwin Class D.

Quote from: jward on November 16, 2009, 09:57:11 PM
the u34ch was a u36c with provisions for a hep generator for train heating and lighting that in effect derated the horsepower avaialbe for traction. as such, it could be modelled with an atlas u36c, and as i recall they actually made some painted for nj transit.

Actually, the u34CH PRE-DATES the U36C.  Its really a U33C with a larger diesel to account for the HEP.   at that point, GE made the logical step of saying "hey, lets loose the HEP and sell it to freight railroads".   

It can be argued that they would have put the larger engine on their standard U-boat frame anyway,  but regardless, the U34CH came first.

as for modeling the U34CH, its not as easy as it looks.  While atlas DID sell a couple U-boats in the U34CH scheme (i have three),  they are just stand ins.

you would need to remove the dynamic break screens behind the cab,  get a new horn (that they don't really make) and install it in the proper location,   remove the bell and make it under-frame mounted, and scratch build an accurate nose marker (incredibly difficult/irritating to do, since there is no aftermarket part for this).

true, its not to hard, i've done it before, but it will never have the detail of the brass one.   

anyway, the point is you can't find that stuff.   Same with my E44As.  I've never seen any E44A models by alpha before i bought mine, and i still have never seen one, and only heard one other person say they saw one.  everyone else was clueless.

if i didn't grab them, I'd have no E44 (and trust me, you can't make an E44 from an E33.  it won't ever come out right).

Quote from: jonathan on November 16, 2009, 06:58:51 AM
I certainly appreciate all the tips on brass locos.  I think that will become a "someday" project for now.  I keep thinking for that kind of cash, I could go to a trains show, and find and nice Spectrum Connie, 4-6-0, or 4-4-0 modern, with DCC and Sound.  I feel more comfortable getting something I know will perform well, and look great at the same time.

I'm considering joining an MR club as well.  Really want to have something I know will run on the club layout (DCC), and pull all the great B&O equipment I'm collecting.

Brass will certainly stay on my list of must haves "someday".

Thanks again,

Jonathan

yeah, that is half the battle. There are a couple thigns i've bought that i looked back and said, "i could have bought  so much more with that money," but you have to look at it this way.  thigns in modelrailroading are fleeting.   Brass is generally run in samll runs, and people literally snatch it up, and they sit  in collections.   The only reason i got some of my equipment is because the previous owner passed.  otherwise, it would have all been still sitting in a storage container.  this is the fate of most brass.


if its a steam engine  that you REALLY want to be part of your roster, i'd grab it, because their is NO guarantee it will still be there the next time you look.  In fact, some things you might never see see again, period.   I saw a brass U34CH once on Ebay, and thought i might come across it another day.   that was the only time i've ever seen or heard of one, and that was 5 years ago.

It really is a balance, and its up to you.   Just keep that in mind.

Quote from: FECfan on November 15, 2009, 07:04:32 PM
ok, i don't want to go into detail about the bullfrog... whatever it is, im not putting stuff on my steam locos that it wasnt built for

what? that stuff was made for models trains, specifically N-scale and steam locomotives, because neither have good traction due to size and weight distribution.

it is essentially an air drying plastic.  they just call it that because its green and goopy in the jar.

Quote from: Atlantic Central on November 15, 2009, 09:08:26 PM
CAB_IV and FECfan,

How steep are your grades?

unreasonably steep in my case, lol.    my club layout ended up with what they tell me is a 4 percent grade for roughly 8 feet. it was a construction mistake that happened a long time ago in the 1980s.  I was just giving advice for what worked for me.   

Quote from: Hellhound on November 16, 2009, 03:19:10 AM
I avoid locomotives with traction tires whenever possible. Those are a big headache. The tire will stretch and spin off the wheel or break.

the bullfrog snot goes on as a liquid, and shrinks into the wheel as it dries. while it easy enough to scrape off, it doesn't pull off just from running, it only eventually gets smoothed over.   Because it does shrink into  a VERY THIN film, you don't get the bump issues.

QuoteThey will cause erratic operation due to poor electrical contact on the rubber tired wheels. Rubber drive tires are just a quick and dirty fix for a locomotive that is too light to get good traction.

There is no rubber in bullfrog snot. while it will reduce electrical contact, you only need it on one wheelset.   that one axle isn't goingt to make a real difference, especially on a steam engines that pickes up from multiple wheelsets in the loco and tender and over a long wheelbase.

say "too light to get traction" to my challanger.  its to heavy, it just slips, mostly bexcause all the weight is distributed over all those axles. this is is a good way to solve that problem.

QuoteI will change the wheels and add weight to these models whenever possible. If a locomotive stalls I either shorten the train or do what the full scale railroaders do and add more motive power.

sometimes, an engine actually is just underweight, and there isn't always a lot of things you can do to increase weight.  very small locomotives, or very old ones where the mechanism fills the shell,  often cannot take the addition of more weight.  In the case of many of the commuter engines i have, they wouldn't be double headed just to pull an 8 car train on straight and level track.   adding another to pull the train is kind ridiculous and unporototypical.    Sure, if you're ruynning some big freight drag in the moutains, an extra locomotive doesn't look out of place, but there are times where you can't just lash an extra engine up.


 

QuoteAs for "more traction than a locomotive was designed to handle" ...Keep in mind that the drive trains consist of plastic gears, they aren't metal anymore. ...I once managed to overload an older Athearn GP35 locomotive to the point that one of the trucks broke loose from the frame.   

that sounds crazy, but i think if you just want to add more cars (within reason) to a train, the bullfrog snot is not a bad way to go.   Going back to the AEM7 electrics from atlas,  they have all the same drive components that the Six Axle Atlas locomotives do, except the motor is turned on its side and it has a small wheel base /large wheels.     there is no reason the gears on this train are not capable of handling the extra 2-3 cars i'm adding to this train, especially considering i have an Atlas U34CH that can already handle that train, and once again, it has all the same parts.


besides, unlike rubber,  the bullfrog snot shrinks to the wheels (so it won't pull off), and itWILL slip if there is a heavy train.  it doesn't grip as well as rubber does, but i doubt you'll be burning up locomotives.


don't knock the snot until you try it.   you all seem VERY stuck in the old stereotypes of traction tires, and this is something very new.   it does not work or behave the same way rubber tires do.

Quote from: Jim Banner on November 15, 2009, 02:50:12 PM

Quote(1) reduced pickup  giving reduced performance or increasing your track cleaning requirements

Yeah, it does reduce pick up, but we're talking about an locomotive that has 6 axles in the loco, and another 4 in the tender.  One driver set will not cause a major loss of power pick up.   Some diesels get by on less. It doesn't seem to leave a residue or make track dirtier, and i'm told by others that they also had no problems in that department.

Quote(2) more traction than the locomotive was designed to handle.  More traction, whether it comes from more weight or a higher coefficient of friction, can put more load on the motor and more load on the decoder driving the motor.  I would suggest careful monitoring of motor and decoder temperatures if you use BS to pull more cars up steeper grades.  Watching your headlights will give you a quick idea of the amount of pickup you are losing - no flicker, no loss would be ideal.

From my experience, the bullfrog snot isn't a super-traction tire.  a heavy train will still slip up hill.  Besides,  unless someone puts an unreasonable load on the train, i can't see it causing any trouble.   7 passenger cars should be within that range.   I have expirienced no piuckup problems as a result of adding bullfrog snot to various pieces of equipment like the AEM7, E44, E60, Challenger (Lionel), HHP-8,  and other lightweight/passenger engines that need it.

QuoteA third problem with traction tires is that they wear out.  Perhaps someone with more than two weeks experience with BS will comment on how long it lasts.  The ad for BS portrays it as easy to install, which would certainly be helpful if BS was shorter lived than regular traction tires.

Yeah, i might have only had it two weeks, but ther is an amry of people who've had it for a year now, and the general consesus is that it sticks for atleast 6 months before it starts smoothing over.  I can tell you,if you want to take it off, you pretty much just need a exacto knife or a flat screwdiver. it pretty much peels right off.   It works by shrinking onto the wheel, its not sticky, but it does conforme to the wheel.  it takes about a minute or two to clean it off your average wheel set.

the bottle has so much bullfrog snot, and you only ever use a drop at a time, that you won't run out anytime soon either.

QuotePersonally, I will stick with adding more motive power to get long trains up heavy grades because that is the same solution the 12" to the foot guys, use, not because I see any problems with BS.

Jim

yeah, but when your 4-6-6-4 can't pull more than a few 40' boxcars up a hill, something needs to be done about that.  I can't keep adding more chanllengers until it works, lol. sometimes all a train needs is some grip.

Quote from: jward on November 15, 2009, 09:56:08 AM
our problem wasn't with the track, but the locomotive itself. there are bronze contact strips that rub the backs of each wheel, and these weren't always making contact.

thats actually a frequent problem on trains of that variety.  On older equipment, these get rubbed out of existence, or may be covered in dirt.  sometimes,  as in Jward's case, they aren't even touching the wheels in any meaningful way. 

that would be another good spot to check.

Quote from: Jim Banner on November 15, 2009, 01:14:22 AM
  Even on the same track, two apparently identical locomotives can have different top speeds because of mechanical factors, usually related to drag due to component fit, finish, and state of lubrication.  If you have had your HPP-8 for years and have run it very little, it may need lubrication and breaking in before it will reach its maximum speed.

this may be true, THis would be the first time its recieved any kind of major use, but its still lacking the power i need.    While i wasn't looking for them to be perfectly matched, I was hoping i could get a more legitimate rate of speed out of the models.   Its possible that the gearing and motors prevents this, but i'm told that when the circuit board is removed, that things run faster/stronger. 

I haven't had to much trouble getting the AEM7s to run at top speed with eachother, but i figured an HHP-8 is a more appropriate locomotive for the long distance electric trains.

I'll probably be shot for making more assumptions.  I don't own these locomotives or those cars,   but i do have a similar problem.

I had a bunch of Atlas AEM7 electrics and i was trying to pull an 8 car train.  Its essentially the same story. 

What i would do, is

1.) buy bull frog snot.  this stuff will definitely improve the performance.  I've already experimented and tested it for two weeks now, and it seems friendly and safe

2.) I'd absolutely make sure your passenger cars are tuned up.   The walthers Comets (Horizons) wouldn't even roll down a 4% grade if you pushed it down.   I went in and modified the trucks, and made sure everything spins smoothly.   



Assuming the K-4 doesn't have any weight issues,  you should be able to handle that 7 car consist if you do this.  I say go for your K-4.